Dragonwrought kobolds [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragonwrought kobolds [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mathew99
12-03-07, 02:50 AM Why is it dragonwrought kobolds can take epic feats pre epic?
zeratulcraft
12-03-07, 03:26 AM Because of a clause that states that true dragons can take them at a certain age category. Dragonwrought Kobolds gain the dragon type and have age categories. Tis good enough for them to be True Dragons apparently.
runestar
12-03-07, 03:29 AM Because they have age categories, and draconomicon does state that dragons of old age or older may take epic feats. So a venerable kobold sorc1 gets +3 to all mental stats without any penalties, and may qualify for epic feats.

It is very open to debate though, and likely a misinterpretation of a clause that was meant to apply only to true dragons (of which there is no official definition, thus dragonwrought kobolds can technically count as true dragons as well). Still...that hasn't stopped all the...;)
calronmoonflower
12-03-07, 05:56 AM It is very open to debate though, and likely a misinterpretation of a clause that was meant to apply only to true dragons (of which there is no official definition, thus dragonwrought kobolds can technically count as true dragons as well). Still...that hasn't stopped all the...;)

Actually true dragons are defined in the Monster Manuel page 68. They are listed as metallic and chromatic dragons only.
zeratulcraft
12-03-07, 05:59 AM I'd have expected Gem Dragons to qualify too, but they weren't written when MM1 was released, right?
celestialkin
12-03-07, 06:00 AM Actually true dragons are defined in the Monster Manuel page 68. They are listed as metallic and chromatic dragons only.

Look at the Draconomicon. It has the official list of true dragons. It now contains a lot of other dragons like deep dragons, fang dragons, and the gem dragons (which I highly approve of).
CrimsonDeath
12-03-07, 06:10 AM The MM states that "All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age." I have argued that Dragonwrought Kobolds do not qualify as True Dragons because they do not gain more abilities as they age.

Nobody believed me...

Anyway, the ELH stated that True Dragons beyond a certain age category can selecte Epic feats. At the time it was published, all True Dragons beyond that age category had at least 21 HD, which meant they were Epic anyway. Apparently, the people who wrote the ELH didn't forsee the Dragonwrought feat or the Kobold age categories in Races of the Dragon.
Xiuhcoatl
12-03-07, 08:17 AM (of which there is no official definition, thus dragonwrought kobolds can technically count as true dragons as well). Still...that hasn't stopped all the...;)

Actually true dragons are defined in the Monster Manuel page 68. They are listed as metallic and chromatic dragons only.

I can't find the reference right now but the Draconomicon defines true dragons as anything with the Dragon type and age categories.

Thus, Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons, and thus at Old age or older, they can take Epic feats.

Edit: I found the reference. Page 4 of the Draconomicon:

True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older. ... Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons.

(quoted for purposes of discussion; Draconomicon, page 4)

So it appears that by insinuation, creatures that lack age categories are not true dragons ... and those creatures with the Dragon type and Age Categories are, in fact, true dragons.
zook1shoe666
12-03-07, 10:19 AM I have argued that Dragonwrought Kobolds do not qualify as True Dragons because they do not gain more abilities as they age.

but they do.... they gain the increased mental stats as they age. i agree though, they do not gain as much as the other dragons.

Apparently, the people who wrote the ELH didn't forsee the Dragonwrought feat or the Kobold age categories in Races of the Dragon.

that isn't our fault ;)
Barloch
12-04-07, 10:24 AM the majority of epic feats require high enough BAB, skills, or feats as prerequisits that its not a huge deal, that and of course rule 0.
Tema69
12-04-07, 11:05 AM Actually, I'm pretty sure Epic Toughness only has Toughness as a prereq. And it grants +30 hit points. ;)
Grizzled Gryphon
12-04-07, 11:05 AM Player: "can I play a Kobold?"
Me: "sure"
Player: "can I get the Dragonwrought Feat?"
Me: "of course, you qualify for it, so why not?"
Player: "Coo, so I will be an Old Dragonwrought Kobold, and can take epic feats!!"
Me: "Of course you can. When your character actually gets that old, of course. You are going to have to start out at the starting age, just like all the other players, though. I could be wrong, but you will probably have enough levels long before that to take those feats anyway..."
:D

This very problem is why starting ages in my games are no longer an option.
Xiuhcoatl
12-04-07, 11:35 AM Actually, I'm pretty sure Epic Toughness only has Toughness as a prereq. And it grants +30 hit points. ;)

Best 3rd-level feat, ever. Or first level fighter feat.
baby_kamikaize_kobold
12-05-07, 05:21 PM Player: "can I play a Kobold?"
Me: "sure"
Player: "can I get the Dragonwrought Feat?"
Me: "of course, you qualify for it, so why not?"
Player: "Coo, so I will be an Old Dragonwrought Kobold, and can take epic feats!!"
Me: "Of course you can. When your character actually gets that old, of course. You are going to have to start out at the starting age, just like all the other players, though. I could be wrong, but you will probably have enough levels long before that to take those feats anyway..."
:D

I've had this same arguement with some people I've played with :D
CrimsonDeath
12-06-07, 01:35 AM but they do.... they gain the increased mental stats as they
IMO, that's the "grow more powerful" part of "grow more powerful and gain more abilities".
zook1shoe666
12-06-07, 10:40 AM IMO, that's the "grow more powerful" part of "grow more powerful and gain more abilities".

"gain more abilities" allows them more skill points ;)

while it applies more to spellcasters, manifesters, etc.... they get more pp/spell slots etc ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mathew99 12-03-07, 02:50 AM	Why is it dragonwrought kobolds can take epic feats pre epic?
zeratulcraft 12-03-07, 03:26 AM	Because of a clause that states that true dragons can take them at a certain age category. Dragonwrought Kobolds gain the dragon type and have age categories. Tis good enough for them to be True Dragons apparently.
runestar 12-03-07, 03:29 AM	Because they have age categories, and draconomicon does state that dragons of old age or older may take epic feats. So a venerable kobold sorc1 gets +3 to all mental stats without any penalties, and may qualify for epic feats. It is very open to debate though, and likely a misinterpretation of a clause that was meant to apply only to true dragons (of which there is no official definition, thus dragonwrought kobolds can technically count as true dragons as well). Still...that hasn't stopped all the...;)
calronmoonflower 12-03-07, 05:56 AM	It is very open to debate though, and likely a misinterpretation of a clause that was meant to apply only to true dragons (of which there is no official definition, thus dragonwrought kobolds can technically count as true dragons as well). Still...that hasn't stopped all the...;) Actually true dragons are defined in the Monster Manuel page 68. They are listed as metallic and chromatic dragons only.
zeratulcraft 12-03-07, 05:59 AM	I'd have expected Gem Dragons to qualify too, but they weren't written when MM1 was released, right?
celestialkin 12-03-07, 06:00 AM	Actually true dragons are defined in the Monster Manuel page 68. They are listed as metallic and chromatic dragons only. Look at the Draconomicon. It has the official list of true dragons. It now contains a lot of other dragons like deep dragons, fang dragons, and the gem dragons (which I highly approve of).
CrimsonDeath 12-03-07, 06:10 AM	The MM states that "All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age." I have argued that Dragonwrought Kobolds do not qualify as True Dragons because they do not gain more abilities as they age. Nobody believed me... Anyway, the ELH stated that True Dragons beyond a certain age category can selecte Epic feats. At the time it was published, all True Dragons beyond that age category had at least 21 HD, which meant they were Epic anyway. Apparently, the people who wrote the ELH didn't forsee the Dragonwrought feat or the Kobold age categories in Races of the Dragon.
Xiuhcoatl 12-03-07, 08:17 AM	(of which there is no official definition, thus dragonwrought kobolds can technically count as true dragons as well). Still...that hasn't stopped all the...;) Actually true dragons are defined in the Monster Manuel page 68. They are listed as metallic and chromatic dragons only. I can't find the reference right now but the Draconomicon defines true dragons as anything with the Dragon type and age categories. Thus, Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons, and thus at Old age or older, they can take Epic feats. Edit: I found the reference. Page 4 of the Draconomicon: True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older. ... Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons. (quoted for purposes of discussion; Draconomicon, page 4) So it appears that by insinuation, creatures that lack age categories are not true dragons ... and those creatures with the Dragon type and Age Categories are, in fact, true dragons.
zook1shoe666 12-03-07, 10:19 AM	I have argued that Dragonwrought Kobolds do not qualify as True Dragons because they do not gain more abilities as they age. but they do.... they gain the increased mental stats as they age. i agree though, they do not gain as much as the other dragons. Apparently, the people who wrote the ELH didn't forsee the Dragonwrought feat or the Kobold age categories in Races of the Dragon. that isn't our fault ;)
Barloch 12-04-07, 10:24 AM	the majority of epic feats require high enough BAB, skills, or feats as prerequisits that its not a huge deal, that and of course rule 0.
Tema69 12-04-07, 11:05 AM	Actually, I'm pretty sure Epic Toughness only has Toughness as a prereq. And it grants +30 hit points. ;)
Grizzled Gryphon 12-04-07, 11:05 AM	Player: "can I play a Kobold?" Me: "sure" Player: "can I get the Dragonwrought Feat?" Me: "of course, you qualify for it, so why not?" Player: "Coo, so I will be an Old Dragonwrought Kobold, and can take epic feats!!" Me: "Of course you can. When your character actually gets that old, of course. You are going to have to start out at the starting age, just like all the other players, though. I could be wrong, but you will probably have enough levels long before that to take those feats anyway..." :D This very problem is why starting ages in my games are no longer an option.
Xiuhcoatl 12-04-07, 11:35 AM	Actually, I'm pretty sure Epic Toughness only has Toughness as a prereq. And it grants +30 hit points. ;) Best 3rd-level feat, ever. Or first level fighter feat.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 12-05-07, 05:21 PM	Player: "can I play a Kobold?" Me: "sure" Player: "can I get the Dragonwrought Feat?" Me: "of course, you qualify for it, so why not?" Player: "Coo, so I will be an Old Dragonwrought Kobold, and can take epic feats!!" Me: "Of course you can. When your character actually gets that old, of course. You are going to have to start out at the starting age, just like all the other players, though. I could be wrong, but you will probably have enough levels long before that to take those feats anyway..." :D I've had this same arguement with some people I've played with :D
CrimsonDeath 12-06-07, 01:35 AM	but they do.... they gain the increased mental stats as they IMO, that's the "grow more powerful" part of "grow more powerful and gain more abilities".
zook1shoe666 12-06-07, 10:40 AM	IMO, that's the "grow more powerful" part of "grow more powerful and gain more abilities". "gain more abilities" allows them more skill points ;) while it applies more to spellcasters, manifesters, etc.... they get more pp/spell slots etc ;)