Dragonwrought kobolds: how old is balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragonwrought kobolds: how old is balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
09-21-07, 08:27 PM I'm wondering -- if kobolds in general are a bit weak, including young adult dragonwrought kobolds, but venerable dragonwrought kobolds are overpowered, do you think there's an age that might be balanced for dragonwrought kobolds?

I.e., would middle-aged or old dragonwrought kobolds be balanced?
Callix
09-21-07, 09:03 PM The issues with Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds go beyond Venerable. If the Dragonwrought Kobold is older than 200 (not yet middle-aged), he qualifies as an epic creature, allowing him to take Epic feats, such as Armor Skin, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Additional Magic Item Space, Improved Heighten Spell and Improved Spell Capacity pre-epic. The Cheesewrought Instabold was able to get arcane spells of up to 65th level by abusing Heighten Spell, Earth Spell and Improved Spell Capacity.

This is due to a CustServ ruling that the defining aspects of a "true dragon" were the Dragon type and the twelve draconic age categories. This is a good guideline for the most part, but Races of the Dragon gave kobolds the twelve age categories as a bit of fun, then gave them a means of acquiring the Dragon type.
Istaran
09-21-07, 09:29 PM The issues with Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds go beyond Venerable. If the Dragonwrought Kobold is older than 200 (not yet middle-aged), he qualifies as an epic creature, allowing him to take Epic feats, such as Armor Skin, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Additional Magic Item Space, Improved Heighten Spell and Improved Spell Capacity pre-epic. The Cheesewrought Instabold was able to get arcane spells of up to 65th level by abusing Heighten Spell, Earth Spell and Improved Spell Capacity.
Where is that rule about Epic creatures from? Just curious.

This is due to a CustServ ruling that the defining aspects of a "true dragon" were the Dragon type and the twelve draconic age categories. This is a good guideline for the most part, but Races of the Dragon gave kobolds the twelve age categories as a bit of fun, then gave them a means of acquiring the Dragon type.
Interestingly this also means they become "true dragons" if they take Dragon Disciple 10 or the Half Dragon template. Both of which nullify their normal disadvantages and improve one of their chief advantages (high AC).

I'm wondering -- if kobolds in general are a bit weak, including young adult dragonwrought kobolds, but venerable dragonwrought kobolds are overpowered, do you think there's an age that might be balanced for dragonwrought kobolds?

I.e., would middle-aged or old dragonwrought kobolds be balanced?
Kobolds are normally perfectly well balanced if you play to their strengths, and better if you use RotD for added options. They just don't do well in str based roles or as damage spunges. So a party of 100% kobolds will have a challenge building a well balanced party (they likely need to use summons, animal companions, etc to provide str for the party). But for arcane and rogue roles kobolds excel already, and they can do well enough as clerics or other support roles.

For point buy I have a rule of thumb: never spend more than 6 points on a attribute with a racial minus, and never spend less than 6 points on an attribute with a racial plus. Using this rule of thumb you can build effective kobold characters; just realize they will have 10 or less str, 12 or less con, and 16 or better dex. Then pick a role / classes that play to those attributes. You don't need to cheese in mental attribute bonuses (or worse as Callix pointed out) to make your kobold effective. Just play him to a kobold's strengths.
runestar
09-21-07, 10:42 PM Where is that rule about Epic creatures from? Just curious.

It is in the ELH, I believe, and reiterated in the draconomicon.

I don't really have a problem with venerable dragonwrought kobolds, when you consider that their age of 120 is just a few years away from their maximum lifespan...:P
natzero
09-22-07, 12:05 AM a 200 year old dragonwrought kobold is old as hell.

120 is venerable + cha mod x (10 or 5 based on dragon type)

so with lets say avg 14 + 3 for venerable gives you 17 cha.

so your max age is 120 + 30 for metallic and 120 + 15 for chromactic.

so 150 or 135.

if you've lived to 200 you have an epic cha score and your overpowered for other reasons than for being a dragonwrought kobold.

i play an old kobold. guaranteed to get +1 to all 3 modifiers.
Callix
09-23-07, 03:53 AM Dragonwrought kobolds have 5x normal kobold lifespan and age categories (10x if they're descended from a good dragon, but then they need to be 400+ to be Epic), and so have a maximum age of 600+5xCha (1200+10xCha if metallic heritage). A normal kobold only needs to be 40 to reach the "old" category if they take one of the PrC's that give the Dragon type, or are half-dragons anyway.
natzero
09-23-07, 10:09 PM callix i hope you are right for the purposes of my char.

however im pretty sure its not quite that high.

Race: Middle Age: Old: Venerable: Max Age:
Kobold 60 90 120 +Cha Years (1)

(1): multiply this number by 5 for chromactic and by 10 for metallic. Not the other categories, just the bonus years. so cha mod x 10.

this is my interpretation from page 39 of races of dragon.

if any one knows for sure let me know cause i hope im wrong.
natzero
09-24-07, 08:56 PM not to bump per say but i need to know if anyone else has same opinion as me or if im wrong.

im not too sure and would like to know, as im sure the rest of the board would agree this is a point that needs to be made.

so in all thread-like terms: bump :)
Roog
09-24-07, 09:35 PM not to bump per say but i need to know if anyone else has same opinion as me or if im wrong.

im not too sure and would like to know, as im sure the rest of the board would agree this is a point that needs to be made.

so in all thread-like terms: bump :)

Yes, it's reasonably obvious that only the bonus to life span based on charisma is multiplied by 5 or 10 (as appropriate), meaning that all venerable Kobolds become Great Wyrms after one year.
Callix
09-25-07, 06:28 AM My bad. Still, the Epic qualification is at draconic Old, or 40. Serves me right for doing the working in my head. This is still pre-middle-age for a kobold, with plenty of lifespan left.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 09-21-07, 08:27 PM	I'm wondering -- if kobolds in general are a bit weak, including young adult dragonwrought kobolds, but venerable dragonwrought kobolds are overpowered, do you think there's an age that might be balanced for dragonwrought kobolds? I.e., would middle-aged or old dragonwrought kobolds be balanced?
Callix 09-21-07, 09:03 PM	The issues with Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds go beyond Venerable. If the Dragonwrought Kobold is older than 200 (not yet middle-aged), he qualifies as an epic creature, allowing him to take Epic feats, such as Armor Skin, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Additional Magic Item Space, Improved Heighten Spell and Improved Spell Capacity pre-epic. The Cheesewrought Instabold was able to get arcane spells of up to 65th level by abusing Heighten Spell, Earth Spell and Improved Spell Capacity. This is due to a CustServ ruling that the defining aspects of a "true dragon" were the Dragon type and the twelve draconic age categories. This is a good guideline for the most part, but Races of the Dragon gave kobolds the twelve age categories as a bit of fun, then gave them a means of acquiring the Dragon type.
Istaran 09-21-07, 09:29 PM	The issues with Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds go beyond Venerable. If the Dragonwrought Kobold is older than 200 (not yet middle-aged), he qualifies as an epic creature, allowing him to take Epic feats, such as Armor Skin, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Additional Magic Item Space, Improved Heighten Spell and Improved Spell Capacity pre-epic. The Cheesewrought Instabold was able to get arcane spells of up to 65th level by abusing Heighten Spell, Earth Spell and Improved Spell Capacity. Where is that rule about Epic creatures from? Just curious. This is due to a CustServ ruling that the defining aspects of a "true dragon" were the Dragon type and the twelve draconic age categories. This is a good guideline for the most part, but Races of the Dragon gave kobolds the twelve age categories as a bit of fun, then gave them a means of acquiring the Dragon type. Interestingly this also means they become "true dragons" if they take Dragon Disciple 10 or the Half Dragon template. Both of which nullify their normal disadvantages and improve one of their chief advantages (high AC). I'm wondering -- if kobolds in general are a bit weak, including young adult dragonwrought kobolds, but venerable dragonwrought kobolds are overpowered, do you think there's an age that might be balanced for dragonwrought kobolds? I.e., would middle-aged or old dragonwrought kobolds be balanced? Kobolds are normally perfectly well balanced if you play to their strengths, and better if you use RotD for added options. They just don't do well in str based roles or as damage spunges. So a party of 100% kobolds will have a challenge building a well balanced party (they likely need to use summons, animal companions, etc to provide str for the party). But for arcane and rogue roles kobolds excel already, and they can do well enough as clerics or other support roles. For point buy I have a rule of thumb: never spend more than 6 points on a attribute with a racial minus, and never spend less than 6 points on an attribute with a racial plus. Using this rule of thumb you can build effective kobold characters; just realize they will have 10 or less str, 12 or less con, and 16 or better dex. Then pick a role / classes that play to those attributes. You don't need to cheese in mental attribute bonuses (or worse as Callix pointed out) to make your kobold effective. Just play him to a kobold's strengths.
runestar 09-21-07, 10:42 PM	Where is that rule about Epic creatures from? Just curious. It is in the ELH, I believe, and reiterated in the draconomicon. I don't really have a problem with venerable dragonwrought kobolds, when you consider that their age of 120 is just a few years away from their maximum lifespan...:P
natzero 09-22-07, 12:05 AM	a 200 year old dragonwrought kobold is old as hell. 120 is venerable + cha mod x (10 or 5 based on dragon type) so with lets say avg 14 + 3 for venerable gives you 17 cha. so your max age is 120 + 30 for metallic and 120 + 15 for chromactic. so 150 or 135. if you've lived to 200 you have an epic cha score and your overpowered for other reasons than for being a dragonwrought kobold. i play an old kobold. guaranteed to get +1 to all 3 modifiers.
Callix 09-23-07, 03:53 AM	Dragonwrought kobolds have 5x normal kobold lifespan and age categories (10x if they're descended from a good dragon, but then they need to be 400+ to be Epic), and so have a maximum age of 600+5xCha (1200+10xCha if metallic heritage). A normal kobold only needs to be 40 to reach the "old" category if they take one of the PrC's that give the Dragon type, or are half-dragons anyway.
natzero 09-23-07, 10:09 PM	callix i hope you are right for the purposes of my char. however im pretty sure its not quite that high. Race: Middle Age: Old: Venerable: Max Age: Kobold 60 90 120 +Cha Years (1) (1): multiply this number by 5 for chromactic and by 10 for metallic. Not the other categories, just the bonus years. so cha mod x 10. this is my interpretation from page 39 of races of dragon. if any one knows for sure let me know cause i hope im wrong.
natzero 09-24-07, 08:56 PM	not to bump per say but i need to know if anyone else has same opinion as me or if im wrong. im not too sure and would like to know, as im sure the rest of the board would agree this is a point that needs to be made. so in all thread-like terms: bump :)
Roog 09-24-07, 09:35 PM	not to bump per say but i need to know if anyone else has same opinion as me or if im wrong. im not too sure and would like to know, as im sure the rest of the board would agree this is a point that needs to be made. so in all thread-like terms: bump :) Yes, it's reasonably obvious that only the bonus to life span based on charisma is multiplied by 5 or 10 (as appropriate), meaning that all venerable Kobolds become Great Wyrms after one year.
Callix 09-25-07, 06:28 AM	My bad. Still, the Epic qualification is at draconic Old, or 40. Serves me right for doing the working in my head. This is still pre-middle-age for a kobold, with plenty of lifespan left.