Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Haldrik 10-27-07, 07:43 PM	Drekar This thread is for a version of Dragon that is more historically accurate. Drekar are the Viking Dragons. The name can refer to "one Drekar" singular, or "many Drekar" plural. Properly, the Norse singular is Dreki, but for convenience the plural form serves for both. Similarly, D&D calls the Viking Dwarf a Dvergar, whereas properly this is the plural form, and the singular form is Dvergr. Notably, the Viking Dragon is Fey (actually a Jotnar nature spirit who shapeshifted into a Drekar, sometimes permanently, and birthed Drekar children), and are Psionic (using mindforce magic). Drekar vary in size from Medium to Cosmic. All Drekar have a prehensile tail and mouth. They can conceivably be a Psionic player race. Appearance: In essence, a Viking Dragon is a giant snake, resembling an adder (Vipera berus or common viper), but with a head that is somewhat like a lion. Its features always include: Snakelike body. Reptilian scales. Snakelike "snout" that is characteristic of the adder. Fangs: sometimes the mouth seems more snakelike, but othertimes more lionlike. Rounded lionlike ears, that sometimes appear pointy and catlike (or wolflike?). Goatlike V-shaped horns from the forehead, but sometimes these are lacking. http://www.hlasek.com/foto/vipera_berus_aa7701.jpg Note the shape of the serpents snout, the dark marking from its eye to its neck, and on top of its head a dark V-shaped marking that may inspire horns. A Drekar spits venom as a ranged weapon. This venom can be described as numbing cold or as burning fire. Its usually a ray, like a stream, but sometimes seems as if a cone or cloud, like flame or mist. The serpentine body is an amphibious swimmer, and tho a Drekar usually lives in mountainous caves, these presumably exist in the coastal cliffs of the fjords. Later forms of Drekar, after the Viking Era from about 1200 CE and on, may include: Sometimes eaglelike limbs and talons (resembling shoulders, arms and hands). Rarely quadrapedal or winged. Viking Dragon http://www.athenapub.com/drag2x.GIF Dragon heads from 990 CE Gokstad, Norway, decorating the verge boards of a tent (Nicolaysen, 1882, Plate XI). Note the goatlike horn that contures from their forehead to the back of the head. Apparently, lines from the eyes to the neck arent horns but represent the dark scale marking. Also note the lionlike ears, snakelike mouth, lionlike fangs, and non-forked lionlike tongue. http://www.ravensgard.org/gerekr/Gokstadbeds.jpg http://klub.chip.pl/popeye/foty/okrety/big/1.jpg Dragon heads from 990 CE Gokstad, Norway, decorating bed posts. Note the goatlike horns (contouring from the forehead to the back of the head), lionlike ears, snakelike mouth, lionlike fangs (whose sharp points have broken off), and lionlike tongue. http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/scarboat/largeplaque.jpg Dragon heads from Orkney Islands, in the Scar Dragon Plaque (Orkneyjar.com). Note the goatlike horns protruding forward, fangs, lionine tongue, and reptilian scales. http://www.ravensgard.org/gerekr/Osebergbh.gif Dragon head from 850 CE Osberg, Norway, decorating bed posts. Note the lionlike ears, mouth, fangs, and tongue, and goatlike horns (facing foreward from the forehead, and knotted with the tongue and body). http://www.mariner.org/educationalad/ageofex/images/dragon.jpg Dragon prow of ship from 990 CE Gokstad, Norway. Note the snakelike snout, lionlike tongue, but lack of horns. http://members.aol.com/scothist/viks/v0304.jpg http://pvaineau.club.fr/proue.jpg Dragon prow of ship from 850 CE Osberg, Norway. Note snakelike snout and fangs, lionlike ears, and lack of horns. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/Viking-ship-head.JPG/450px-Viking-ship-head.JPG Dragon prow of ship, from 11th century Roskilde Fjord, Denmark. Note the snakelike snout, lionlike fangs and teeth, and lack of horns. http://www.jelldragon.com/eshop/images/ad55.jpg Replica of dragon knot broach from circa 1200 CE Sweden. Note the goatlike horns, snakelike scales, serpentine body, snakelike fangs, but significantly the eaglelike talons (resembling shoulder, arms, and hands). http://www.jelldragon.com/eshop/images/ad44.jpg Replica of broach with dragon knot, from 12th century Wisbech, England (Jelldragon.com). Note its stylized horn, snout, fang, and its eaglelike talons. http://www.jelldragon.com/eshop/images/ad10.jpg Replica of the Thors-Hammer/Crucifix fusion amulet, from 11th century Iceland (Jelldragon.com). Note the lionlike ears, snakelike snout, and lack of horns. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Upplands_Runinskrift_871_2.jpg Dragon knot from 871 CE Sweden, in the Uppland Runic Inscription. Note the simplified horns and snakelike mouth, fangs, and body. http://home.no.net/ahruner/se-rune-ramsundberg.jpg Three serpentine dragons, one inscribed with runes from circa 1000 CE Södermanland, Sweden, from the Ramsund Rock rune carving (No.net). Click open the spoiler for a clear large image of the Ramsund rune carving above. http://www.aspects.net/~janus/Viking%20stones2.jpg (Aspects.net) This famous Runestone monument, the Ramsund Rock, comes from around 1000 CE Södermanland, Sweden. The carving illustrates scenes from the Sigurd dragon-slayer stories, known from Viking texts. It evidences how the Vikings themselves visualized their religious figures. Viking Dragons are snakelike. Viking Dwarves are humansized. The carving shows three snakelike Drekar. The Drekar below, whose body contains the runic inscription, is Fafnir himself. Fafnir is the Viking Dwarf who metamorphosed into the form of a Viking Dragon. The hero Sigurd, portrayed as a helmed beardless warrior, killed Fafnir by piercing his serpentine form with his Viking-style sword. Above, two dragons are knotted together at their tails. Note their stylized reptilian scales, fangs, lionlike ears (left), and (knotted) curved horns. In contrast to the other two dragon heads, Fafnirs head is complex (and more difficult to "read"). His wide open mouth spews a fiery venom. Note his V-shaped horns, snakelike snout, lower fang, and what may be his tongue knotted back with itself. Note Sigurds horse tied to the tree, where two birds sit who warn Sigurd that the Dwarf Regin is about to murder him. Sigurd sits sucking his thumb by a stylized campfire. On a stick, he roasts the dragon heart of Fafnir. Sigurd burnt his thumb on the heart, and licking his thumb to assuage the injury, ingests some of the magical dragon blood that gave Sigurd the ability to speak with birds. Being warned of the planned murder, Sigurd kills Regin the Dwarf whose dead body lies on his stomach decaputated. Significantly, a Viking Dwarf is the exact same size as a human. Viking sources never describe Dwarves as shorter, and all depictions of them show them to be fully human sized. References to having a "Dwarven physique" refers to having the muscular build of a blacksmith, with broad shoulders and burly frame. The Dwarfs tools for metalsmithing accompany Regin and Sigurd. Tongs, anvil, hammer, and air-blowing bellows.
The White Sorcerer 10-27-07, 09:48 PM	At what point did that post have anything to do with 4th Edition races?
Celembor 10-27-07, 10:20 PM	I've about had it with Haldrik's Viking propaganda...
Aldarc 10-27-07, 10:21 PM	At what point did that post have anything to do with 4th Edition races?He apparently expect 4E to conform to his Viking World mindset.
Haldrik 10-27-07, 10:29 PM	The 4e Monster Manual can include a version of Dragon that is more historically accurate. The Medieval culture understood the Drekar to be serpentine. Moreover, the Viking Dragon is Psionic. Some MM monsters will get additional information to be player races. The Drakar is conceivably a playable race, and noteworthy while designing Psionic player character races.
Haldrik 10-27-07, 10:32 PM	Vikings are an inseparable part of the Medieval World, in addition to Celtic, Teutonic, Roman, Greek, and others.
Elemental_Elf 10-27-07, 10:38 PM	Uhh, shouldn't this be in the 3.5 Race and/or Monster forum? WotC is not going to put anything amazingly new in the first monster manual for 4E. Heck Psionics won't really exist except for some Psionic-like abilities for Mind Flayer's and their kin. EDIT: Not all Dragons were serpentine, an example would be Y Ddraig Gochhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Flag_of_Wales.svg/800px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png. Vikings are an inseparable part of the Medieval World, in addition to Celtic, Teutonic, Roman, Greek, and others. Just because it's inseparable from Medieval society does not mean it can not be ignored for the purposes of Fantasy.
Haldrik 10-27-07, 10:47 PM	Its 4e.
Wizardmon 10-27-07, 11:00 PM	The 4e Monster Manual can include a version of Dragon that is more historically accurate. Dungeons and Dragons is a fantasy Role Playing game. Fan-tuh-see
Wolf_Boy 10-28-07, 12:49 AM	Um, dude, dragons have shown up in all cultures everywhere. What you have is historically for one culture. D&D dragons are more a mesh between European and Oriental dragons combined into one. Not exactly historically accurate, but it's a byproduct of history. When you claim that your dragons are historically accurate and other dragons are not, you are discounting that dragons have come in multiple shapes, sizes, and intelligences throughout the ages. In almost every dragon story the dragon is different from it's other counter parts. There is NO single historically accurate dragon.
Haldrik 10-28-07, 01:09 AM	Yeah, dragons seem universal among humans. I agree with the theory that the Dragon is a neurological conflation of primal fears - including Snake, Wildcat, Bird of Prey, Horned Beast, and even wildfire - that our brain evolved to help us avoid danger. Here, I focus on the Medieval expression of this Dragon archetype. I love the Asian versions of Dragon! But the European versions of Dragon belong in D&D too.
Valdrax 10-28-07, 02:18 AM	Here, I focus on the Medieval expression of this Dragon archetype. I love the Asian versions of Dragon! But the European versions of Dragon belong in D&D too. Yes, but there is no reason why D&D should change to conform solely to the Nordic vision of a dragon instead of the more common English/French/Germanic vision of a dragon that most people in think of in modern pop culture. I appreciate that you've done a lot of research on Nordic culture and seem fond of it, but no one's going to seriously consider revamping D&D's Dragons nor its pulp-fantasy influenced vision of Psionics to be more like Nordic culture. Also, please have this thread moved to the Monsters forum where it belongs. This is completely off-topic in the Races forum.
Haldrik 10-28-07, 02:22 AM	The Drekar is intended as a PC race. Viking culture is an inseparable part of D&D, along with other European Medieval cultures.
Valdrax 10-28-07, 02:34 AM	The Drekar is intended as a PC race. You have to either be insane or trolling, and I can't tell which. A PC race that doesn't even have hands or even any limbs of any sort in their most common depiction? Have they even been depicted as being able to talk? How would they even form a civilization or meaningfully use the abilities of most common classes (like wielding weapons or tools)? And didn't you say that the size of this race goes from Medium to far, far beyond Colossal? Viking culture is an inseparable part of D&D, along with other European Medieval cultures. No more so than Greek, Teutonic, and Anglo-Saxon culture. Arguably a lot less, in fact -- especially when it comes to the depiction of dragons. D&D dragons owe a lot more to Smaug than to the Midgard Serpent. Nordic culture was one of Tolkien's dominant influences when he was designing Middle Earth, and Middle Earth was one of the dominant influences in D&D, but they've both quite clearly diverged from these sources and both quite clearly been influenced by other cultural sources as well. D&D has not been and never will be the Asatru role-playing game, and you're just wasting space arguing in effect that it should be by asking for the inclusion of an obscure race of beings that 99% of D&D gamers have never heard of to be included in core or for junking the current feel of psionics in favor of Nordic magic. Take all this energy and devotion you have for Nordic cultures and channel it into writing a supplement or an alternate set of core rules yourself. If you do it well enough, you might very well have the next Nyambe.
Haldrik 10-28-07, 03:57 AM	You, Valdrax, are trolling.
Valdrax 10-28-07, 08:55 PM	You, Valdrax, are trolling. Care to support that? Do you have any counter-argument that would suggest that a PC race without hands would be viable? Do you have any counter-argument to suggest why WotC would make an obscure race of serpents into a PC race -- or that they have ever supported any form of dragon as a PC race? Do you have any counter-argument to suggest why Nordic mythology and flavor should dominate over that of other cultures except to continuously assert, "Viking culture is an inseparable part of D&D," without any support?
Awesome_Dude 10-29-07, 09:20 AM	Care to support that? That's not how he rolls. He just tells people how things are or how they're supposed to be. He also has no need for logical thought, for he is Haldrik. He can make do with Vikings instead! Sorry, Haldrik, but you make it too easy for me to mess with you.
Bahumut 10-29-07, 09:44 AM	i have an idea, how about instead of proposing a new race for D&D...with no mechanics written...just a general demand of "heres how my race should be, now build it darnit!"... you take a look at my troll decended race, the Trollkin! they are meant to be like how the planetouched are to outsiders, the goliath are (sorta) to giants, the mephlings are to elementals, etc. The Trollkin (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=943702)
Tenadros 10-30-07, 12:21 PM	Yeah, dragons seem universal among humans. Yeah, They're called dinosaurs. Plenty of evidence of rare dinosaurs existing into premodern times and spawning mythological creatures. Eberron does some nice things with dino's in fantastical worlds. For historical versions of dragons, see dinosaurs I believe there are several already in the MM's in 3.5