Drow dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Drow dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dndfencer
09-25-07, 01:27 PM Drow, don't get me wrong, are one of the most awesome races in terms of rp but I don't see how they are worth a +2 LA.
I know the spell resistance is great but other than that they just suck. Although, maybe most people think that the LA is so good it doesn't matter.
Or, in any case, has anyone made a lower LA drow?
Arakano
09-25-07, 01:54 PM Many have, I believe.

But Drow do NOT suck, IMHO. +2 dex, -2 con, +2 int, +2 cha looks good to me. THeir spell-like abilities can be useful, especially with some of the feats from "Drow of the Underdark". Not to mention their superior dark vision. Still a bit weak for LA+2, agreed, but not abysmally so. Use the LA-buyoff from Unearthed Arcana, and you are fine. Or do as I did, start a purely drow group and ditch the LA entirely (because all are equally strong). After all, why should a drow, racist by heart, ally with any none-drow at all? Unless of course you seek to create another oh-so-exciting Drizzt-clone... :rolleyes:
The_Shaman
09-25-07, 01:55 PM PGtF has a lesser drow without LA. There was also a drow racial progression, breaking the class features into 2 levels.
dndfencer
09-25-07, 03:10 PM what's PGtF
dndfencer
09-25-07, 03:30 PM Also, where is the drow variant thingy in UA
ToxicWiz
09-25-07, 04:05 PM I think the Drow LA is about right. It's the spell resistance and special abilities that does it I think.

As for that all Drow party... now that could be interesting!

I'd check out the UA and the PGtF (whatever that is) suggested above.
Legdiwena
09-25-07, 04:06 PM Player Guide to Faerun and variant in UA is for paragon levels that enhance the race, not a variant race itself.
AAB
09-25-07, 04:41 PM I personally hate the Drow Spell Resistance. As a player when you have 3 hit points left you don't want to spend a standard action just so that someone can heal you. Granted you can take a feat to compensate, but it is still a nuisance.
Legdiwena
09-25-07, 04:50 PM What feat?
The_Shaman
09-25-07, 04:53 PM BTW, there are LA race monster progressions here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
deathbane
09-25-07, 05:27 PM I personally hate the Drow Spell Resistance. As a player when you have 3 hit points left you don't want to spend a standard action just so that someone can heal you. Granted you can take a feat to compensate, but it is still a nuisance.

I have never heard of a monster having to beat it's own spell resistance so I always thought it could be suppressed. The SR definition in the says they can avoid the effects of spells and SLA's, so that also makes it sound like a choice.
Legdiwena
09-25-07, 05:43 PM IIRC, you automatically beat your own SR, but have to lower it for friends to affect you. I thought healing didn't use SR, being a harmless spell.
deathbane
09-25-07, 08:59 PM IIRC, you automatically beat your own SR, but have to lower it for friends to affect you. I thought healing didn't use SR, being a harmless spell.

You would still have to lower it, because you have the option to resist being healed by trying to make a savings throw, not that it is likely, but it is there. I knew you could lower, that was the point of my last post, is that beneficial spells don't have to beat your SR because you can lower your resistance.
1 ton ghost
09-25-07, 10:16 PM interesting observation on the SR heal dilemma, though we flecked a bit of muscle to overlook that. i know, RAW dictates you must willingly drop it for the heal...
but, that it awfully harsh considering they ate 2 HD and a Con penalty. caution is an understatement

imagine the implications in drow society so infamous for their treachery. that is, you're "good friend" knowing you are now vulnerable under the pretext of a heal that is now an inflict...

i think Darkvision is overlooked as well. at 120ft w/ a good Spot, that gives you plenty of time to prep a good stealth routine and almost guarantee a Surprise Round. that kinda' tactical prowess is terribly precious. better than Improved Init any day...assuming you're savvy enough to manipulate it. and if you're drow, and have lived to maturity, chances are you're savvy or very lucky.
Istaran
09-25-07, 11:09 PM imagine the implications in drow society so infamous for their treachery. that is, you're "good friend" knowing you are now vulnerable under the pretext of a heal that is now an inflict...

The solution is simple: the only person you knowingly and willingly allow to heal you is the drow priestess that owns you. If she goes around killing off her own wounded servants then she won't be able to grow her power base nearly as well, right? If you're actually female yourself then the solution is even easier. Become a priestess. No sense relying on someone else to heal you. That's just asking for trouble.
The_Shaman
09-26-07, 06:40 AM And if she wants to kill you, she'll do it anyway :D .
1 ton ghost
09-26-07, 09:28 AM Lolthian, Vhaerunian, doesn't matter...
the lot of them are bastards and prone to betray as likely to help you dending on how they can benefit. SR complicates things, but it's one Hell of a defense probably because of situations like these for example. one of many anyway.
i mean, it's pretty much gospel that eldest daughter, at some point betrays the matron mother via assassination and the lion's share are priestesses. 2nd boy murders 1st boy, jockeying for positions in non-noble castes is common as well.
the list of misgivings is endless.
the aegis of a Cure is a totally feasbile cover for this type of treachery, especially to someone that doesn't get Spellcraft as a class skill. you're already weakened, inflicts are spontaneously cast from evil divine types...why not?
power base if irrelevant unless we're talking about another female or a rare male of influence (weapon master and the like). males are a dime a donzen and easilly replaced. even if they're not, being CE means never having to say you're sorry.
concerro
09-26-07, 11:46 AM being CE means never having to say you're sorry.

im stealing this :heehee
dndfencer
09-26-07, 12:32 PM mind you, if I was a drow I really wouldn't count on my SR too much. The SR becomes less than 50-50 as soon as you face casters of the same level as you, really takes a dive when they get above your level, or if they take one of the numerous SR piercing things then the effectiveness really takes a dive (if they are the same level as you but full caster with SR piercing than your SR really won't do you much good). Even if they are a couple levels lower than you, if they cast a regular and a quickened spell one of them is likely to work (and with a -2 con you really can't afford that unless you have high saves).
So, basically, unless you're facing a bunch of low level casters you SR won't provide you with too much help.
deathbane
09-26-07, 01:01 PM mind you, if I was a drow I really wouldn't count on my SR too much. The SR becomes less than 50-50 as soon as you face casters of the same level as you, really takes a dive when they get above your level, or if they take one of the numerous SR piercing things then the effectiveness really takes a dive (if they are the same level as you but full caster with SR piercing than your SR really won't do you much good). Even if they are a couple levels lower than you, if they cast a regular and a quickened spell one of them is likely to work (and with a -2 con you really can't afford that unless you have high saves).
So, basically, unless you're facing a bunch of low level casters you SR won't provide you with too much help.

Or you can look at from the caster's point of view that only 50% of his spells will work against the drow, unless he has some that that SR does not affect. If you have a metagaming DM(more than he should), then the SR will be pointless.
dndfencer
09-26-07, 01:27 PM Looking at it from the casters point of view I can see that I have more levels (and thus more spells and skill ranks) so I could probably sneak around this guy and bombard him until enough of my spells get through. Annoying but perfectly do able if I'm using spell point system. Also, I might use a bunch of scorching rays because that would basically be 4 spells in one. 2 are likely to get through, if I quicken it and cast twice each round then it goes up to 4. A little maximise and empower and it should only take me a couple rounds to kill this drow (especially with arcane thesis cheese). Also, SR piercing abilities are something every spellcaster worth his salt should pick up if possible.
Now I know the drow won't just sit there and take it but unless he is also a spell caster he can't do much. Now if it was a duel between spell casters the drow might have some advantage but if the NPC can counterspell then forget it because the drow can't (NPC will have higher level spells to fight with) with more sp to burn the NPC can afford to counterspell for a bit and with higher levels come higher saves too.
Still, the SR is a little bit of a poser but definitely not insurmountable for a smart NPC caster
deathbane
09-26-07, 03:42 PM Looking at it from the casters point of view I can see that I have more levels (and thus more spells and skill ranks) so I could probably sneak around this guy and bombard him until enough of my spells get through. Annoying but perfectly do able if I'm using spell point system. Also, I might use a bunch of scorching rays because that would basically be 4 spells in one. 2 are likely to get through, if I quicken it and cast twice each round then it goes up to 4. A little maximise and empower and it should only take me a couple rounds to kill this drow (especially with arcane thesis cheese). Also, SR piercing abilities are something every spellcaster worth his salt should pick up if possible.
Now I know the drow won't just sit there and take it but unless he is also a spell caster he can't do much. Now if it was a duel between spell casters the drow might have some advantage but if the NPC can counterspell then forget it because the drow can't (NPC will have higher level spells to fight with) with more sp to burn the NPC can afford to counterspell for a bit and with higher levels come higher saves too.
Still, the SR is a little bit of a poser but definitely not insurmountable for a smart NPC caster

Yeah, but wasting all your spells on one opponent is a pain. I did not realize the power of SR until I had to face some death knights when I was still a PC. I was a sorcerer so I had spells to spare, but for wizards those wasted spells can hurt so I guess it has it's advantages and disadvantages depending on the caster's abilities.
Legdiwena
09-28-07, 04:33 PM You lower SR for friend to heal and enemy nukage hits in same round, owie. Down with Lolth. CG Drow Chaos Monk/Favored Soul of Eilistraee. Where'd I leave that bastard sword?
deadkoo
09-28-07, 06:45 PM Unless of course you seek to create another oh-so-exciting Drizzt-clone... :rolleyes:

... a bit sterotypical.

I currently play a drow Bard with a group of fairly good PCs(surface elves and humans..)

It works out fine, I "left" the drow city I lived in because I was chased. I was chased because I killed a drow priestess. I killed the priestess because She wanted to "sleep with me"(not mature thread I wont go into detail...). yea, having 20 CHA isn't always a GOOD thing....
The_Shaman
09-28-07, 08:03 PM I've always thought a drow bard sounds fun, but it's a bit hard conceptually imo. That, and I've had some other ideas to play with. Has anyone tried making a drow beguiler, btw?
jradd777
09-28-07, 09:34 PM I've always wanted to play a drow but never wanted to deal with the LA. Thanks to The_Shaman for the link to progressions. I don't believe that the Drow in PGtF is not LA... some of the FR books don't list all the info in every book, they refer to certain others for "full" descriptions.
freeze3kgt
10-03-07, 06:19 PM i always thought the save on heal spells was only for undead and automatick for all others.
jradd777
10-03-07, 07:47 PM I don't believe that the Drow in PGtF is not LA... some of the FR books don't list all the info in every book, they refer to certain others for "full" descriptions.

I've since learned I was wrong here. I hadn't noticed the Lesser races in the back... I guess page numbers make a big difference. Ha ha
The_Shaman
10-04-07, 02:36 PM I've always wanted to play a drow but never wanted to deal with the LA. Thanks to The_Shaman for the link to progressions. I don't believe that the Drow in PGtF is not LA... some of the FR books don't list all the info in every book, they refer to certain others for "full" descriptions.

The PGtF version is a part of a separate chapter that gives ideas how to play powerful races from the start, and in particular in a column that lists LA 0 versions of several races. It loses most drow abilities, and imo is a pretty average LA 0 race, so I do not think you would have any problems with it..
jradd777
10-04-07, 04:13 PM I've always thought a drow bard sounds fun, but it's a bit hard conceptually imo. That, and I've had some other ideas to play with. Has anyone tried making a drow beguiler, btw?

Drow beguiler might be interesting... maybe I'll try it out sometime...
Operation_Shoestring
10-04-07, 04:37 PM there is a drow bard class. It loses bardic knowledge and gets poison use instead.
The_Shaman
10-05-07, 06:50 AM Where's this from, Drow of the Underdark? It sounds rather underwhelming if that's all you get for bardic knowledge.
Operation_Shoestring
10-07-07, 09:02 PM Where's this from, Drow of the Underdark? It sounds rather underwhelming if that's all you get for bardic knowledge.

yes. The drow thief loses trap sense for poison, which is even more gibbed.

Though i'm thinking of using the drow thief class with immediate multi to barb to get trap-sense back and also get increased speed. dunno if that's allowable tho.
The_Shaman
10-08-07, 09:16 AM Well, trap sense has yet to come in use in most of the campaigns we play, as many traps don't require attack rolls - or the DM forgets that they should require such rolls. Bardic knowledge, however, comes into use as often as a knowledge (anything) roll may be required, which can easily be several times per session. YMMV.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dndfencer 09-25-07, 01:27 PM	Drow, don't get me wrong, are one of the most awesome races in terms of rp but I don't see how they are worth a +2 LA. I know the spell resistance is great but other than that they just suck. Although, maybe most people think that the LA is so good it doesn't matter. Or, in any case, has anyone made a lower LA drow?
Arakano 09-25-07, 01:54 PM	Many have, I believe. But Drow do NOT suck, IMHO. +2 dex, -2 con, +2 int, +2 cha looks good to me. THeir spell-like abilities can be useful, especially with some of the feats from "Drow of the Underdark". Not to mention their superior dark vision. Still a bit weak for LA+2, agreed, but not abysmally so. Use the LA-buyoff from Unearthed Arcana, and you are fine. Or do as I did, start a purely drow group and ditch the LA entirely (because all are equally strong). After all, why should a drow, racist by heart, ally with any none-drow at all? Unless of course you seek to create another oh-so-exciting Drizzt-clone... :rolleyes:
The_Shaman 09-25-07, 01:55 PM	PGtF has a lesser drow without LA. There was also a drow racial progression, breaking the class features into 2 levels.
dndfencer 09-25-07, 03:10 PM	what's PGtF
dndfencer 09-25-07, 03:30 PM	Also, where is the drow variant thingy in UA
ToxicWiz 09-25-07, 04:05 PM	I think the Drow LA is about right. It's the spell resistance and special abilities that does it I think. As for that all Drow party... now that could be interesting! I'd check out the UA and the PGtF (whatever that is) suggested above.
Legdiwena 09-25-07, 04:06 PM	Player Guide to Faerun and variant in UA is for paragon levels that enhance the race, not a variant race itself.
AAB 09-25-07, 04:41 PM	I personally hate the Drow Spell Resistance. As a player when you have 3 hit points left you don't want to spend a standard action just so that someone can heal you. Granted you can take a feat to compensate, but it is still a nuisance.
Legdiwena 09-25-07, 04:50 PM	What feat?
The_Shaman 09-25-07, 04:53 PM	BTW, there are LA race monster progressions here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
deathbane 09-25-07, 05:27 PM	I personally hate the Drow Spell Resistance. As a player when you have 3 hit points left you don't want to spend a standard action just so that someone can heal you. Granted you can take a feat to compensate, but it is still a nuisance. I have never heard of a monster having to beat it's own spell resistance so I always thought it could be suppressed. The SR definition in the says they can avoid the effects of spells and SLA's, so that also makes it sound like a choice.
Legdiwena 09-25-07, 05:43 PM	IIRC, you automatically beat your own SR, but have to lower it for friends to affect you. I thought healing didn't use SR, being a harmless spell.
deathbane 09-25-07, 08:59 PM	IIRC, you automatically beat your own SR, but have to lower it for friends to affect you. I thought healing didn't use SR, being a harmless spell. You would still have to lower it, because you have the option to resist being healed by trying to make a savings throw, not that it is likely, but it is there. I knew you could lower, that was the point of my last post, is that beneficial spells don't have to beat your SR because you can lower your resistance.
1 ton ghost 09-25-07, 10:16 PM	interesting observation on the SR heal dilemma, though we flecked a bit of muscle to overlook that. i know, RAW dictates you must willingly drop it for the heal... but, that it awfully harsh considering they ate 2 HD and a Con penalty. caution is an understatement imagine the implications in drow society so infamous for their treachery. that is, you're "good friend" knowing you are now vulnerable under the pretext of a heal that is now an inflict... i think Darkvision is overlooked as well. at 120ft w/ a good Spot, that gives you plenty of time to prep a good stealth routine and almost guarantee a Surprise Round. that kinda' tactical prowess is terribly precious. better than Improved Init any day...assuming you're savvy enough to manipulate it. and if you're drow, and have lived to maturity, chances are you're savvy or very lucky.
Istaran 09-25-07, 11:09 PM	imagine the implications in drow society so infamous for their treachery. that is, you're "good friend" knowing you are now vulnerable under the pretext of a heal that is now an inflict... The solution is simple: the only person you knowingly and willingly allow to heal you is the drow priestess that owns you. If she goes around killing off her own wounded servants then she won't be able to grow her power base nearly as well, right? If you're actually female yourself then the solution is even easier. Become a priestess. No sense relying on someone else to heal you. That's just asking for trouble.
The_Shaman 09-26-07, 06:40 AM	And if she wants to kill you, she'll do it anyway :D .
1 ton ghost 09-26-07, 09:28 AM	Lolthian, Vhaerunian, doesn't matter... the lot of them are bastards and prone to betray as likely to help you dending on how they can benefit. SR complicates things, but it's one Hell of a defense probably because of situations like these for example. one of many anyway. i mean, it's pretty much gospel that eldest daughter, at some point betrays the matron mother via assassination and the lion's share are priestesses. 2nd boy murders 1st boy, jockeying for positions in non-noble castes is common as well. the list of misgivings is endless. the aegis of a Cure is a totally feasbile cover for this type of treachery, especially to someone that doesn't get Spellcraft as a class skill. you're already weakened, inflicts are spontaneously cast from evil divine types...why not? power base if irrelevant unless we're talking about another female or a rare male of influence (weapon master and the like). males are a dime a donzen and easilly replaced. even if they're not, being CE means never having to say you're sorry.
concerro 09-26-07, 11:46 AM	being CE means never having to say you're sorry. im stealing this :heehee
dndfencer 09-26-07, 12:32 PM	mind you, if I was a drow I really wouldn't count on my SR too much. The SR becomes less than 50-50 as soon as you face casters of the same level as you, really takes a dive when they get above your level, or if they take one of the numerous SR piercing things then the effectiveness really takes a dive (if they are the same level as you but full caster with SR piercing than your SR really won't do you much good). Even if they are a couple levels lower than you, if they cast a regular and a quickened spell one of them is likely to work (and with a -2 con you really can't afford that unless you have high saves). So, basically, unless you're facing a bunch of low level casters you SR won't provide you with too much help.
deathbane 09-26-07, 01:01 PM	mind you, if I was a drow I really wouldn't count on my SR too much. The SR becomes less than 50-50 as soon as you face casters of the same level as you, really takes a dive when they get above your level, or if they take one of the numerous SR piercing things then the effectiveness really takes a dive (if they are the same level as you but full caster with SR piercing than your SR really won't do you much good). Even if they are a couple levels lower than you, if they cast a regular and a quickened spell one of them is likely to work (and with a -2 con you really can't afford that unless you have high saves). So, basically, unless you're facing a bunch of low level casters you SR won't provide you with too much help. Or you can look at from the caster's point of view that only 50% of his spells will work against the drow, unless he has some that that SR does not affect. If you have a metagaming DM(more than he should), then the SR will be pointless.
dndfencer 09-26-07, 01:27 PM	Looking at it from the casters point of view I can see that I have more levels (and thus more spells and skill ranks) so I could probably sneak around this guy and bombard him until enough of my spells get through. Annoying but perfectly do able if I'm using spell point system. Also, I might use a bunch of scorching rays because that would basically be 4 spells in one. 2 are likely to get through, if I quicken it and cast twice each round then it goes up to 4. A little maximise and empower and it should only take me a couple rounds to kill this drow (especially with arcane thesis cheese). Also, SR piercing abilities are something every spellcaster worth his salt should pick up if possible. Now I know the drow won't just sit there and take it but unless he is also a spell caster he can't do much. Now if it was a duel between spell casters the drow might have some advantage but if the NPC can counterspell then forget it because the drow can't (NPC will have higher level spells to fight with) with more sp to burn the NPC can afford to counterspell for a bit and with higher levels come higher saves too. Still, the SR is a little bit of a poser but definitely not insurmountable for a smart NPC caster
deathbane 09-26-07, 03:42 PM	Looking at it from the casters point of view I can see that I have more levels (and thus more spells and skill ranks) so I could probably sneak around this guy and bombard him until enough of my spells get through. Annoying but perfectly do able if I'm using spell point system. Also, I might use a bunch of scorching rays because that would basically be 4 spells in one. 2 are likely to get through, if I quicken it and cast twice each round then it goes up to 4. A little maximise and empower and it should only take me a couple rounds to kill this drow (especially with arcane thesis cheese). Also, SR piercing abilities are something every spellcaster worth his salt should pick up if possible. Now I know the drow won't just sit there and take it but unless he is also a spell caster he can't do much. Now if it was a duel between spell casters the drow might have some advantage but if the NPC can counterspell then forget it because the drow can't (NPC will have higher level spells to fight with) with more sp to burn the NPC can afford to counterspell for a bit and with higher levels come higher saves too. Still, the SR is a little bit of a poser but definitely not insurmountable for a smart NPC caster Yeah, but wasting all your spells on one opponent is a pain. I did not realize the power of SR until I had to face some death knights when I was still a PC. I was a sorcerer so I had spells to spare, but for wizards those wasted spells can hurt so I guess it has it's advantages and disadvantages depending on the caster's abilities.
Legdiwena 09-28-07, 04:33 PM	You lower SR for friend to heal and enemy nukage hits in same round, owie. Down with Lolth. CG Drow Chaos Monk/Favored Soul of Eilistraee. Where'd I leave that bastard sword?
deadkoo 09-28-07, 06:45 PM	Unless of course you seek to create another oh-so-exciting Drizzt-clone... :rolleyes: ... a bit sterotypical. I currently play a drow Bard with a group of fairly good PCs(surface elves and humans..) It works out fine, I "left" the drow city I lived in because I was chased. I was chased because I killed a drow priestess. I killed the priestess because She wanted to "sleep with me"(not mature thread I wont go into detail...). yea, having 20 CHA isn't always a GOOD thing....
The_Shaman 09-28-07, 08:03 PM	I've always thought a drow bard sounds fun, but it's a bit hard conceptually imo. That, and I've had some other ideas to play with. Has anyone tried making a drow beguiler, btw?
jradd777 09-28-07, 09:34 PM	I've always wanted to play a drow but never wanted to deal with the LA. Thanks to The_Shaman for the link to progressions. I don't believe that the Drow in PGtF is not LA... some of the FR books don't list all the info in every book, they refer to certain others for "full" descriptions.
freeze3kgt 10-03-07, 06:19 PM	i always thought the save on heal spells was only for undead and automatick for all others.
jradd777 10-03-07, 07:47 PM	I don't believe that the Drow in PGtF is not LA... some of the FR books don't list all the info in every book, they refer to certain others for "full" descriptions. I've since learned I was wrong here. I hadn't noticed the Lesser races in the back... I guess page numbers make a big difference. Ha ha
The_Shaman 10-04-07, 02:36 PM	I've always wanted to play a drow but never wanted to deal with the LA. Thanks to The_Shaman for the link to progressions. I don't believe that the Drow in PGtF is not LA... some of the FR books don't list all the info in every book, they refer to certain others for "full" descriptions. The PGtF version is a part of a separate chapter that gives ideas how to play powerful races from the start, and in particular in a column that lists LA 0 versions of several races. It loses most drow abilities, and imo is a pretty average LA 0 race, so I do not think you would have any problems with it..
jradd777 10-04-07, 04:13 PM	I've always thought a drow bard sounds fun, but it's a bit hard conceptually imo. That, and I've had some other ideas to play with. Has anyone tried making a drow beguiler, btw? Drow beguiler might be interesting... maybe I'll try it out sometime...
Operation_Shoestring 10-04-07, 04:37 PM	there is a drow bard class. It loses bardic knowledge and gets poison use instead.
The_Shaman 10-05-07, 06:50 AM	Where's this from, Drow of the Underdark? It sounds rather underwhelming if that's all you get for bardic knowledge.
Operation_Shoestring 10-07-07, 09:02 PM	Where's this from, Drow of the Underdark? It sounds rather underwhelming if that's all you get for bardic knowledge. yes. The drow thief loses trap sense for poison, which is even more gibbed. Though i'm thinking of using the drow thief class with immediate multi to barb to get trap-sense back and also get increased speed. dunno if that's allowable tho.
The_Shaman 10-08-07, 09:16 AM	Well, trap sense has yet to come in use in most of the campaigns we play, as many traps don't require attack rolls - or the DM forgets that they should require such rolls. Bardic knowledge, however, comes into use as often as a knowledge (anything) roll may be required, which can easily be several times per session. YMMV.