Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cato 05-19-07, 07:50 AM	Is there any reason - Feat/feature from which one would benefit for playing a warrior drow? I.e I was thinking of some nice strategies with the darkness spell and blind fighting, but lets say with the 2 ecl its hard to keep up to par with a 4 lvl party (my party) if ur a 2 lvl drow warrior. (Magic in the blood/highborn drow are a couple of feats I have been toying with) Any suggestions on this or other tactics would be welcome
Shaftiel 05-19-07, 09:49 AM	I made a drow ranger a few years ago... but none of that dual-wield stuff; the -2 LA really hurts your combat ability. Instead I went archer and my primary tactic was to keep enemies between 60' and 90' away - so I could see them but they couldn't see me. It was very tricky but reasonably successful and fun to play. Until I missed the save on a save-or-die spell by 1 point. Stupid LA. Edit: See if your DM will let you use the UA rules for buying off level adjustments. They won't kick in until 7th/8th level but in the long run they help a lot. -Shaftiel
AMGriffin 05-19-07, 10:12 AM	There is no benefit to playing a warrior drow whatsoever, you'd be much better off playing a regular elf as a fighter. But if you wanna be a drow warrior type, there is the lesser drow, which is basically a regular elf but with 60 feet darkvision, SLAs(I think), and light blindness.
The_Shaman 05-19-07, 11:39 AM	It can be nice, but is likely to be hard. Here are some ideas that might help: - try to get the LA buyoff. It may be even worse for casters, but you're left with -2 to pretty much any check you care about and around 10 hp. - Consider specializing against mages. You have a tolerable spell resistance, and a bonus vs will saves. If you want to build on that, the CW has a few nice feats against mages and, let's be honest, your spell-likes aren't that incredible. It's a tradeoff, granted, but you choose. The CMage anti-arcanist ranger might come in handy, here. - Consider ranged attacks. With superior darkvision and a bonus to dexterity, drow are decent marksmen. The proficiency with some hand crossbows can be useful with the crossbow sniper feat (VERY good for a race with great darkvision and superior dexterity, and perfect if you have sneak attacks). If you can have self-loading hand crossbows (by design or magical enhancement), dual-wielding them might be quite the sight. Also, consider sniping (hiding after a shot) instead of standing around as a target. - consider some rogue levels. 4 is a good number - it costs only a single point of BAB, gives you evasion and uncanny dodge, and 2d6 SA damage, not to mention a good deal of points. Since your character has a problem with attack bonus, he would probably want to go for situations that give an attack bonus (flanking/flat-footed) which is where the SA kicks in anyway. - interesting PrCs: - dark hunter - more darkvision, sneak attack, and death attack (int bonus, remember?); useful for any drow ranger. It takes track (ranger) and blind-fight, which can be useful if you want to use your darkness spell creatively. - Occult slayer: drow are good vs mages, and this helps make them even better. A few levels in ranger (CMage variant or any other, really) help. - Blackguard: it has potential. The good charisma translates in even better saves vs most spells, the SA and full BAB mean that you can do damage, étc, etc. Besides, chances are a drow wont need to go out of their way to find an evil outsider. I've heard people complain about the "Improved Cleave", but it can be a very dangerous feat - consider, for example, that most casters need SOMETHING to cast their spells. Holy symbols(which a cleric needs to brandish), druid paraphernalia, or spell component pouches aren't know for their resilience. Against non-casters you have sneak attack (possibly with some of the hardier companions you can get), poisons, spells, etc. - Nightsong enforcer: full BAB, almost full SA progression. It works well if you're into melee, but it synergizes better than most if you want to use ranged attacks. Plus, if you want to be stealthy, it's good if your group can help you. - Invisible Blade/Duelist: you're asking for trouble, but if your intelligence is high enough and you have a great dexterity score, your AC might be tolerable. Consider having AC-enhanced clothers (you can have wizard robes with AC bonus, why not) and be careful. Useful in urban campaigns, where not everyone and their mother have full plate. - interesting (imo) base warrior classes - swashbuckler. You have a bonus to dex and int, and this class gives you finesse and intelligence to damage, possibly (TWF variant) TWD at lvl 5. A nice dip, or perhaps a bit more with some Daring outlaw (which actually allows the swashies to get a decent source of damage). The skills allow for some tumbling (to set flanking), jumping on a ledge for that blessed circumstance bonus to attack, etc. - ranger. One of the more balanced (imo) warrior classes, it blends well with the drow penchant for stealth and, some might say, backstabbing (even without the sneak attack, attacking a flat-footed foe is nice), plus it has two good saves, decent skills and feats (at first, at least) and offers you a chance to set flankings with a disposable companion. - Warblade: ToB is powerful for warriors, and the warblade has access to fighter material, uses int for most abilities, and is forgiving towards lower-con classes (the d12), making it probably your best initiator bet. - Fighter: dip, perhaps even more than the swashie. Sometimes you need extra feats, and there are feats (i.e. requiring combat expertise) that drow can make good use of.
cato 05-19-07, 01:42 PM	Thanks for the replies!My main issue is finding some way to see in magical darkness which is doable with a ranger(spell) or with a buff from a cleric and with blindsight 5ft radius feat which is basically useless. Could anybody suggest anything else ( without magic items)? Are there any other uses for darkness anyway?
Qube 05-19-07, 02:26 PM	don't see how it could harm a barbarian or fighter ... SR is a nice bonus in the array of defences
The_Shaman 05-19-07, 03:46 PM	don't see how it could harm a barbarian or fighter ... Darkness may be a good way to do any of the below - slow someone down: it's generally not a good idea to charge in when you can't see. If you want to accentuate that point, consider having a trap or two. while we're at it... - hiding things: i.e. the aforementioned traps. What you don't see CAN hurt you. - blocking sight:i.e. against archers. If you use it on or in front of yourself, you automatically gain concealment. As for getting through it, mechanically it's only 20% concealment (as per the SRD), so if there is a way to reduce concealment, it could technically work
Ninetails Demon 05-20-07, 02:06 AM	Check out the Racial Substitution level for Drow fighters in Drow of the Underdark (I think that's what it was called?). It looked like it was a pretty good swap for a fighter. Something to do with losing heavy armor proficiency and tower shield proficiency for a fairly nice bonus.
Rerecros 05-20-07, 02:47 AM	Improved toughness helps with the LA
Ardent 05-21-07, 02:00 AM	2 things make drow warriors really rock: 1) Spell Resistance. This is un-freaking-believable in boss encounters. Roughly half the offensive spells coming at you fizzle. Even at low levels its value should not be discounted. 2) Investing in Con over Str. Hear me out on this; drow are going to be Dexterous fighters anyway (sticking with medium armor helps here), and you shouldn't worry about dealing damage; you're not going to be the best at that compared to the rest of your party. But you need the HP to do your job: charge in and threaten everything with AoOs. Work with your DM and see if you can start out at a higher level; since you gain the same xp as everyone else, by the time you hit level 5 they'll be closing in on level 6 and by the time you hit 8th you should be pretty close to in-line with the party.
ArcaneCleric 05-21-07, 09:11 PM	I don't know much about Drow, however if it is true what I have heard that the Drow have/can get access to Darkness spells or powers, I've got one word for a group of Drow Warriors/Fighters: AMBUSH. Now, I don't know how well it would work, but using darkness a Drow Warrior team could easily take down a lot of different types of foes... just as long as there aren't more of them than there are of the Drow.
DwarfPcfan 05-22-07, 04:49 PM	Maximizing drow fighters is actually quite easy. You have to play on their strenghts and minimizing their weaknesses. here's a step by step process that one of my friends once layed out for me when we were debating this issue. Step one: Priorities to stats are slightly shifted. Most fighter go Strenght first, Dex and Con second, int and wis third, etc. Drow fighters shift to Con first, Dex second, strenght and int third. Using a standard array of 15, 14, 13,12,10,8, a starting drow character fighter type should look like this strenght:13, Dex:16, Con:13, Int:14, Wis:10, Cha:10 Not fantastic, granted but he qualifies for every power feat tree around (spring attack, chain tripper, AoO master etc) Step 2: choose proper substitutions. The best for a drow fighter would be the thug variant from UA that drops one feat for 4 skill points level and a better list and the PHBII variants for AoS and counter-strikes step 3: Place skill points in skills that use your strenghts: with 4 skill point level you start with 24 right off the bat pretty good. a good choice would be Tumble 4 ranks, jump 4 ranks, Hide 4 ranks, bluff 4 ranks, climb 4 ranks and swim 4 ranks giving: Tumble +7, Jump +5, Hide +7, Bluff +4, Climb +5, Swim +5. Useable even for a 3rd level character Step 4: Compensate weaknesses earlier on. Either abuse your bonuses or minimize weakenesses. Meaning focusing on ranged attacks or paying for toughness and improved toughness (good to grab in either cas to compensate for the 2 lost hit dice) -The ranged attacker with a longbow can still get an easy +5 to hit at good range with either point blank shot or weapon focus and thats not counting the flanking bonuses -The hit point buff can still get a serviceable 14 hit points at third level even with the thug variant, as long as he buys good ac items, and fights smart, he should survive long enough for improved toughness to start paying off Step5: Dip appropriately, A few levels of ranger and swash buckler can provide access to extra abilities like combat style and insightful strike Step6: Fight dirty, there's no other way to say it but straight forward tactics really don't play to a drow fighter strenghts Step7: Have a plan from day one for your build and never remember the previous steps Step 8: Don't be an a**. It's true, even if your drow character is evil, if you role-play the typical drow mentality in a party composed mostly on non-drow, you're going to die. Why? Because, other characters will hate you and if that happens, even if their characters would save you, they won't save you "First" and that means you have a much greater chance of suffering a horrible painful death. I'm not saying you can't play an evil character just that the back stabbing, annoying typical evil drow mentality won't work. If your character is evil go more for a LE approach. In any case backstabbing allies is never a good idea Step9: Team work always, work out tactics before hand to better synergize your actions with the rest of the team. That way everyone benefits Step 10: Have fun, and make sure everyone else is having fun... Also here's a few suggestion for build that work for drow: -Fighter4/Ranger2/Swashbuckler4/Dervish8. Great for a two-weapon fighter and flanker thanks to insightful strike and devish abilities -Fighter4/Swashbuckler4/War mind 10: great for precision based fighters -Ranger4/scout3/Master thrower10, good to abuse ranged attacks up close using this, your drow fighter should do quite fine...
cato 05-22-07, 05:52 PM	A nice feat that would work wonders on an evil Drow fighter could also be spell resistance from BovD, u get +2 to ur spell resistance if ur evil, and it counteracts the -2 u have from ecl :)
DwarfPcfan 05-23-07, 10:42 AM	Actually no, wasting a feat for +2 Sr is a complete waste of a feat (wich I remind you, you have fewer then everybody else) Seriously, think about it, +2 SR, giving you SR 14 instead of 12 at level 1 compared to say combat reflexes, power attack, etc. absolutely not. Incidently, here's a good archer build for drow. Fighter4/ranger2/Scout3/Arcane Archer8 Make insane abuse of a mobility archer, simply run around pumping +4 arrows in enemies butt's:P
Ardent 05-23-07, 04:56 PM	A nice feat that would work wonders on an evil Drow fighter could also be spell resistance from BovD, u get +2 to ur spell resistance if ur evil, and it counteracts the -2 u have from ecl :) A drow fighter's first feat is usually Weapon Focus. For a reason; you've got 2 levels of BAB to make up for.
The_Shaman 05-23-07, 05:04 PM	Besides, if you want SR, I believe Savage Species has ability focus anyway. +2 regardless of alignment... But I agree, the weak BAB makes focus/specialization/mastery worth it.
NerdNumber1 05-23-07, 05:27 PM	Step 8: Don't be an a**. It's true, even if your drow character is evil, if you role-play the typical drow mentality in a party composed mostly on non-drow, you're going to die. Why? Because, other characters will hate you and if that happens, even if their characters would save you, they won't save you "First" and that means you have a much greater chance of suffering a horrible painful death. I'm not saying you can't play an evil character just that the back stabbing, annoying typical evil drow mentality won't work. If your character is evil go more for a LE approach. In any case backstabbing allies is never a good idea. Just a little to add. As a LE drow, you might manipulate your party, use "morally-grey" tactics, or even loot the dying party member before his body is cold, but you will do what will profit you most in the long run. That means no attacking the ones protecting you, no starting a fight that you can't win, and no doing evil for evil's sake (or at least make sure that you can't get caught at it).
The_Shaman 05-23-07, 06:29 PM	Technically, a CE character need not be a thoughtless psychopat. Scheming - possibly. Cold-hearted - probably . Cruel - Hells, yes. But just because you are evil and you do not like being bossed around or limited by petty concerns (which imo forms the basis of "Chaotic"), doesn't mean you would be stupid enough to provoke a 5:1 fight, or be unable to realize the benefits of temporary cooperation, or even have (gasp) feelings or develop affection for others. While the last is rare and rather imperfect, it is possible. Anyway, what would people here define by "typical drow mentality?" Except for the arrogance that other elven races are also not quite free of, and the, well, evil bent, afaik drow can be quite flexible in their beliefs when it comes to surviving. By and large, they are not a very suicidal race, and the smarter ones would probably know when not to push their luck. Some drow (clerics in particular) tend to be an exception not because they are maniacal in general but because their own power makes them oblivious to the threat others represent (remember, bonuses to Int and Cha, not Wis). However, male fighters tend to be less conceited... or die quickly.
cato 05-24-07, 01:20 AM	A drow fighter's first feat is usually Weapon Focus. For a reason; you've got 2 levels of BAB to make up for. Well I was thinking one of the reasons u pick drow is the SR, assuming ur fighting casters at ur ecl, if ur 2 points behind on ur spell resistance and they have basic spell penetration ur 4 points behind, .. that leaves u with a marginal 25% chance to resist..
Rerecros 05-24-07, 05:23 AM	Incidently, here's a good archer build for drow. Fighter4/ranger2/Scout3/Arcane Archer8 :rolleyes: Where do I begin. To qualify for arcane Archer you need the ability to cast arcane spells. Wasting levels in ranger and scout, when the same result can be gained from the simple varient barbarian from UA (loose rage, gain favored enemy and combat style). And putting more than 2 levels in fighter is only worth it if there are a lot of feat Prereqs for a PrC. The fighter and the swashbuckler suck (beyond the 2nd and 3rd respectively), choose a PrC a build towards it. Initiate of the Bow, blackgaurd, arcane archer, duelist and shadowdancer (if some racial adjustments were made) are all fine choices.
itwasntme 05-24-07, 05:51 AM	fighter / warrior types do not suck at higher levels they pointed out and proved the only way other people are wining is eather ie break rules to get unlimited wishes or something eles on thouse lines or something eles on the lines of metagame thinking or doing a super nova type combat that made it where the spellcaster (Arcane was the more arguement spellcaster type) Spent all or most of his spells on the 1 warrior guy and after that he couldnt deal with the other creatures or battles for that day so eather the spellcaster can have a good chance of death (50%) or spends evey little rescour (Spending XP alot of gold in componants eta eta) On killing the 1 character But anyways Drow just kinda suck anyways at higher levels you could give your character DV like that of a Drow so keeping them away at 60-90 feet is good at low levels but not good enough higher levels then that and only good in Pitch darkness where a daylight spell or something eles can easyoly start ruining that tastic of hit and run the LA and the benefits the drow get is not a good Trade off for +1 la you can get a race with so much more benefits then the drow (+4 Dodge AC agest eveyone SR DV Non Detection some spell like abilitys) other things on that line so the drow gets benefits but at a cost of +2 LA not a good trade off espoucly when all there benefits benefit differnt things but +1 or +2 sure good all around personbut not great if you specilize (And i dont mean over specilize where eveything eles is a super weekness i mean just a little bit specilize) But still its not realy worth it it be nice if all you where fighting where Drow Characters! But if your in a group with normol Dwarfs or Elfs or Humans your character will start to lag behind and get hurt
lord_xarallon 05-24-07, 06:06 AM	A lot of smart stuff has been said about your build, but as it seems none has answered how you can see in darkness, so that is what I gonna do. Ebon Eyes from Spell Compendium. It lets you see in natural and magical darkness. Get it as a potion, it will be cheap because it is a first level spell. If you don't want to waste a standard action to drink the potion, then take Delay Potion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=2). It seems you can affort this feat, when you take fighter levels.
Maraxus 05-24-07, 06:14 AM	The best reason to play a drow fighter is, that it might be a good excuse to have an unlimited-supply drow poison supplier (or even a little Craft poisonmaking), that non-drow might not have excess to that easily.
DwarfPcfan 05-24-07, 10:03 AM	:rolleyes: Where do I begin. To qualify for arcane Archer you need the ability to cast arcane spells. Wasting levels in ranger and scout, when the same result can be gained from the simple varient barbarian from UA (loose rage, gain favored enemy and combat style). And putting more than 2 levels in fighter is only worth it if there are a lot of feat Prereqs for a PrC. The fighter and the swashbuckler suck (beyond the 2nd and 3rd respectively), choose a PrC a build towards it. Initiate of the Bow, blackgaurd, arcane archer, duelist and shadowdancer (if some racial adjustments were made) are all fine choices. My bad, The correct build would be Fighter4/Ranger2/Sorcerer4/Arcane archer8... (mind wanders sometimes, sorry about that) Anyway, I disagree, fighter is well worth going into 4 level, get an aditional bonus feat (moslty you'll choose weapon spec to get additional damage), hit die etc. It's even more worth it for your a drow since he already lost heavy hp because of the -2 LA Considering this a TwF drow character with a good mix of swashbuckler and Ranger or rogue can get some excellent damage potential by adding is intelligence modifier to damage and going into dervish later on for other useful bonues
Ardent 05-24-07, 04:46 PM	Well I was thinking one of the reasons u pick drow is the SR, assuming ur fighting casters at ur ecl, if ur 2 points behind on ur spell resistance and they have basic spell penetration ur 4 points behind, .. that leaves u with a marginal 25% chance to resist.. 1. Any spellcaster who blows one of their very valuable bonus feats on Spell Penetration either has a DM who favors creatures with SR or sucks. There's no in-between. 2. Typically a drow in a party on level with them will have a better than 33% chance to resist any spell cast at them. Once you're into the level 7-12 range, the chance increases to roughly 50% as a lot of casters in that challenge rating will not be pure casters. 3. Spell Resistance is a nice perk. The PRIMARY reason you would choose to play as a drow fighter, in my experience, is the drow racial spells (and their generally good attribute mods). They're devastating when used intelligently; Faerie Fire makes the invisible enemy a piece of cake, effectively cutting 1-2 CR off the encounter. Darkness is almost better than Expeditious Retreat, because it also inflicts a miss chance on anyone firing after you if you do have to run. High Born Drow is a very, very worthwhile feat for a drow fighter too. Being able to Levitate makes the drow fighter infinitely more dangerous.
The_Shaman 05-24-07, 08:25 PM	As for seeing in darkness, wasn't there a least warlock invocation that lets you do the same thing? I am also pretty sure I had seen a ranger spell somewhere that did it, but I can't say for sure... AFB.
cato 05-25-07, 04:36 AM	1. Any spellcaster who blows one of their very valuable bonus feats on Spell Penetration either has a DM who favors creatures with SR or sucks. There's no in-between. 2. Typically a drow in a party on level with them will have a better than 33% chance to resist any spell cast at them. Once you're into the level 7-12 range, the chance increases to roughly 50% as a lot of casters in that challenge rating will not be pure casters. 3. Spell Resistance is a nice perk. The PRIMARY reason you would choose to play as a drow fighter, in my experience, is the drow racial spells (and their generally good attribute mods). They're devastating when used intelligently; Faerie Fire makes the invisible enemy a piece of cake, effectively cutting 1-2 CR off the encounter. Darkness is almost better than Expeditious Retreat, because it also inflicts a miss chance on anyone firing after you if you do have to run. High Born Drow is a very, very worthwhile feat for a drow fighter too. Being able to Levitate makes the drow fighter infinitely more dangerous. 1) Spell penetration is a fine feat for npc and pc mages, you underestimate its value, its by no way blown on pcs or npcs. Also npcs dont use char optimization forums so its a nifty feat to pick for them. 2) Improved spell resistance greatly increased the % You have to resist spells even by ur amout of 33% it give you an aditional 17% to ignore spells! 3) The Spell like abilities are nice, but tbh only If you play them with the new feats from drow of the underdark, which allows them to be cast as immediate actions/more times per day. I am not that convinced about the value of levitate even though I can see all the ways it can be useful. Up to drow of the underdark seeing in magical darkness was also a bigger deal, I suppose its gonna be one extra reason to use darkness now.