Drow... lvl adj +2? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Drow... lvl adj +2? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nat_20
03-21-07, 12:11 AM Does anyone else think drow are over charged for a level adjustment??? +2 seems a little much, but the spell resistance is cool, anyone have any comments???
runestar
03-21-07, 12:13 AM I dunno - +1 seems a tad too cheap either...:P
Nat_20
03-21-07, 12:18 AM remove the SR, +1 good???
Maraxus
03-21-07, 12:19 AM The SR is definitly the most powerful ability. Yes, with this removed, it looks like a fair, average LA +1
Nat_20
03-21-07, 12:23 AM yeah, but i think i'll stick with my half-drow half-elf home brew race
Asadeseth
03-21-07, 01:02 AM Yhea but Drow are so cool their worth a +2 LA...

Okay jokeing aside, while they are a bit week for a +2 LA, they are to strong for a +1 LA, the removal of the MR sounds about fair for scailing them back a level.
Treymordin
03-21-07, 01:29 AM What if you wer eplaying an all drow game, would the +2La still count?
Nat_20
03-21-07, 01:33 AM i would assume not, there are powerful compared to none lvl ajd races, so if everyone was a drow i guess you wouldnt need to worry about it, maybe throwing stuff one cr higher at them
Sleepwalker13666
03-21-07, 01:42 AM I've often felt drow are underpowered for a +2 but they are definitly above +1. Maybe if they did'nt have that light vulnerbility they would make a decent +2.
Nat_20
03-21-07, 01:56 AM dropping the spell resistance would be fine, a good +1 race if i do say so, the racial spells give them that tasty drow seasoning, i wouldnt wanna get rid of that
Vrykolas2k
03-21-07, 02:05 AM I'd say +2 in the Underdark, with all of their abilities... on the surface, they lose most or all of their spell-like abilities, so I'd make them +1.
Perun
03-21-07, 02:35 AM I'd say +2 in the Underdark, with all of their abilities... on the surface, they lose most or all of their spell-like abilities, so I'd make them +1.

Before somebody gets confused, this is how things worked before 3e (and thus in a number of drow-themed novels); now, drow retain all of their abilities even if they psend their whole lives on the surface.

Regards.
Nat_20
03-21-07, 02:44 AM Well a cool way of doing it would have a group of surface dwelling drow who have lost Lolths favor and lose their Spell Resistance and spell like abilities and have not penalty to light... seem cool?
Finfreeze
03-21-07, 08:08 AM Personally, I think they're weak. Just compare them to sprites.

A drow gets (penalties in italics):

+2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha (Net +4)
Size: Medium
Base Land Speed: 30'
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision 120'
Light Blindness
Spell Resistance 11 + Class Levels (40% chance of blocking)
Immune to magic sleep and ghoul (but not ghast) paralysis
Auto-search secret doors
+2 racial bonus on will saves vs. spells and spell-like abilities
+2 racial bonus on saves vs. enchantments
+2 listen, search, spot
Dancing Lights, Darkness, and Faerie Fire 1/day
Automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, and short sword

The nixie, one of the weaker sprites, has the following benefits (ditto):

-4 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +8 Cha (Net +14, +10 vs. Drow)
Size: Small
Base Land Speed: 20'
Base Swim Speed: 30'
Amphibious
Low-Light Vision
SR 16 + Class Levels (base 60% chance of blocking spells)
Damage Reduction 5/Cold Iron
Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats
Charm Person 3/day (24 hour duration), Water Breathing 1/day
Wild Empathy
+2 bonus on listen, search, and spot
+5 bonus to hide when underwater
+6 bonus to wild empathy checks
Automatically proficient with simple weapons and the short sword (whoo!)

That's for 1 LA more. And since the nixie doesn't have a constitution penalty, it'll eventually overcome the drow in HP even with boosters. Then of course the pixie goes ahead and beats the nixie into the ground with good flight, even higher stats, better damage reduction, greater invisibility, and a point of natural armor that comes out of nowhere (since when do pixies have armor-like skin?).

So yeah, I think drow are far, far closer to LA +1 as-is than LA +2.
runestar
03-21-07, 08:32 AM Technically, one cannot be sure if the nixie's sr actually scales with class lvs, though it is not an unreasonable extrapolation...:P
Finfreeze
03-21-07, 09:01 AM ...Also known as the curse of not having an "Xs as Characters" entry.
Vrykolas2k
03-21-07, 10:43 AM Before somebody gets confused, this is how things worked before 3e (and thus in a number of drow-themed novels); now, drow retain all of their abilities even if they psend their whole lives on the surface.

Regards.

1st, 2nd, & 3rd editions... and supported by novels, which are considered canon by many... I'd say they lose the abilities until they return to the Underdark for some time.
Treymordin
03-21-07, 11:18 AM Is that still the case in 3.0 and later editions of the game?
Skeetweasel
03-21-07, 11:26 AM 1st, 2nd, & 3rd editions... and supported by novels, which are considered canon by many... I'd say they lose the abilities until they return to the Underdark for some time.

Novels are far from canon, and no where in 3.5 does it state that drow lose any abilities on the surface. Just that they are blinded for a round and dazzled if they stay in bright sunlight. And until my PHB says I need to read a novel to play, I will never allow a story to dictate rules.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-21-07, 11:28 AM No. As of 3.0E and continued in 3.5E, drow do not lose their abilities, nor does their equipment decay in sunlight, or any of the other traits of previous editions.

In previous editions, the whole idea that they lost their abilities was done to "balance" them with standard races. In 3.0E+, we have LA to accomplish that.

In previous editions, the "decays in sunlight" was expressly added (in the original module) solely to prevent magical items from getting into the hands of the players. 3.0E+ no longer considers this a cardinal sin. WotC folks have also elaborated on why it's bad game design on other levels.
Perun
03-21-07, 11:32 AM 1st, 2nd, & 3rd editions...

Please, give reference for this claim. 1e and 2e is right, but I can't remember a single 3e, and more specifically, 3.5e reference that would support it, including the FR Underdark, Races of Faerūn accessories or the plain 3.5 MM.

and supported by novels, which are considered canon by many... I'd say they lose the abilities until they return to the Underdark for some time.

I'd dare say that most of the drow-related novels were written before 2000, and thus predate D&D 3e (and I'm primarily thinking Drizzt novels and Elaine Cunnigham's Daughter of the Drow series).

Regards.

Edit: Beaten to it by Skeetweasel and Neutronium_Dragon.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-21-07, 11:39 AM Here's what one of them had to say about the decaying equipment (and he cites several other developers in the process): http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/drowitemsdontdecay.html
Bopple
03-21-07, 12:14 PM Is Drow weak? Well, look at Svirfneblin. Now, that is WEAK.
Perun
03-21-07, 12:16 PM Does anyone else think drow are over charged for a level adjustment??? +2 seems a little much, but the spell resistance is cool, anyone have any comments???

I don't think they're overcharged. However, I do recomment using the LA Buy-Off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) rules (originally from Unearthed Arcana, now also in the SRD), as any LA becomes a hindrance as the character advances in levels -- what was useful at lower levels simply isn't as good at higher levels.

Drow get just about everything the (high) elves get, plus
+2 Int, +2 Cha
darkvision 120 ft. (this replaces elven low-light vision)
spell-like abilities (two 0-level spells, one 2nd-level spell)
bonus to Will saves (+2 vs. spell and spell-like effects, presumably stacks with the elven bonus vs. enchantment effects)
spell resistance (11 + HD)

This is offset by light blindness.

I'd say spell resistance alone s worth +1 LA (even though it's a mixed blessing), and the rest of their abilities push them to +2.
Zumarai
03-21-07, 12:27 PM Isn't there a drow (and an aasimar/tiefling) variant with no LA adjustment in one the 3rd edition FR products?
Neutronium_Dragon
03-21-07, 12:37 PM Yes. The "lesser" variants are in the Player's Guide to Faerun. There are entries for drow, duergar, deep gnomes, and planetouched.
Vrykolas2k
03-21-07, 04:35 PM Novels are far from canon, and no where in 3.5 does it state that drow lose any abilities on the surface. Just that they are blinded for a round and dazzled if they stay in bright sunlight. And until my PHB says I need to read a novel to play, I will never allow a story to dictate rules.

Oooo, rules.
Never mind story and role-playing... let's do some roll-playing!

Really, this is what annoys me the most about the current edition; it seems to ignore anything but how to make the most hideously powerful character imaginable.
Vrykolas2k
03-21-07, 04:37 PM Please, give reference for this claim. 1e and 2e is right, but I can't remember a single 3e, and more specifically, 3.5e reference that would support it, including the FR Underdark, Races of Faerūn accessories or the plain 3.5 MM.

I'd dare say that most of the drow-related novels were written before 2000, and thus predate D&D 3e (and I'm primarily thinking Drizzt novels and Elaine Cunnigham's Daughter of the Drow series).

Regards.

Edit: Beaten to it by Skeetweasel and Neutronium_Dragon.

The 3rd edition campaign book for Forgotten Realms; the NPCs living on the surface are lacking the abilities.
War of the Spider Queen is a more recent series...
DaidojiTaidoru
03-21-07, 04:42 PM The 3rd edition campaign book for Forgotten Realms; the NPCs living on the surface are lacking the abilities.
War of the Spider Queen is a more recent series...

As per the Windwalker novel Drow magic now works on the surface.

Edit: And on a rules related note in my opinion, without SR the Drow is a LA 1 and without the Int and Cha bonuses a good LA 0. The spells are, past really low levels, not even worth mentioning other then as flavor.
Silvercrys
03-21-07, 05:06 PM Oooo, rules.
Never mind story and role-playing... let's do some roll-playing!

Really, this is what annoys me the most about the current edition; it seems to ignore anything but how to make the most hideously powerful character imaginable.

Ok. So everyone that uses 3e rules is a powergamer? :rolleyes:

Just because some people CAN make powerful characters (CharOp, Pun-Pun in particular comes to mind) doesn't mean that all of us are power gamers that ignore good stories in favor of the rules. My group plays 3e and we don't follow every rule there is.

Perun was merely pointing out that in 3e things have changed. In fact, as DaidojiTaidoru pointed out, the novels now have Drow retaining their abilites on the surface.

If you play your games with Drow losing powers and items while out of the Underdark, that's fine. You don't need to come here and say that that is the rule though.

Because it quite clearly isn't.
Perun
03-21-07, 05:28 PM The 3rd edition campaign book for Forgotten Realms; the NPCs living on the surface are lacking the abilities.

Where? I'm looking at Jezz the Lame's description as I'm typing this, and it clearly mentions "drow traits" in the stat block.

War of the Spider Queen is a more recent series...

I read through the whole six books, and I can't recall where the (supposed) losing of their racial abilities was mentioned.
Count Arioch the 28th
03-21-07, 05:32 PM Oooo, rules.
Never mind story and role-playing... let's do some roll-playing!

Really, this is what annoys me the most about the current edition; it seems to ignore anything but how to make the most hideously powerful character imaginable.

Dude, they made drow completely useless in 3rd edition for PC use, you're complaining about a part where 3E is UNDERpowered, not OVER.

Back on topic:

It has been stated before that the LA's were set to discourage people from playing nonstandard races. You can safely drop most of the LA's without issue and still have what passes as "balanced" for 3E.
Joesph_kurr
03-21-07, 05:34 PM you could give the Drow a -2 to CHA (because of there rep.) and drop the SR to 5+LV making it more of a curse then a blessing at latter LV
The_Shaman
03-21-07, 05:50 PM I think decreasing the SR to 5+HD or even to the dwarven bonus to saves would make them an acceptable LA+1.
Treymordin
03-22-07, 01:10 AM I would leave them as they are, but take away the adjustment. The DROW are just too cool!:D
runestar
03-22-07, 01:32 AM They did that in DDO.:P
Treymordin
03-22-07, 09:01 AM DDO?
Perun
03-22-07, 10:33 AM DDO?

I suspect that's Dungeons & Dragons Online (http://www.ddo.com/).
Suzaku455
03-22-07, 04:51 PM you could give the Drow a -2 to CHA (because of there rep.) and drop the SR to 5+LV making it more of a curse then a blessing at latter LV

Then Warewolfs, undead, Kobolds etc should also get a -2 cha because of their bad reputation. Cha is the measurement of force of personality, hell even most intelligent undead have above average and in most cases actually gain Cha. Races like Dwarfs were groomed to follow a strict & rigid life style for sake of the clan should have a lower Cha because less individualism exist in their culture. Even the high and mighty elves with their stereotype of calling themselves the best race and all other races are just children don't even get a CHA penalty.
Suzaku455
03-22-07, 04:55 PM Don't bother bringing up Half-orcs as they're just the result of Wizard being paranoid about Str as being the best stat of all time and thus requires two ability decrease.
Nat_20
03-22-07, 09:31 PM Well, i just thought of an idea for my new campaign...

High born nobles have the spell resistance, and lower ranked ones dont, and thus lvl adj +1 instead of +2, and any good aligned drow characters have "Dark legacy" 25% of NPC's start of on level worse when determining attitude (unfriendly would be hostel for example) and no lvl adj

What do ya think
Joesph_kurr
03-22-07, 09:51 PM I like it
The_Shaman
03-23-07, 09:49 AM No SR at all might be a bit tough... Any chance on the dwarven bonus, at least?
Rump_Wrangler
03-23-07, 09:59 AM A buddy of mine is playing a Drow Psion 9 (ECL 11) in a party of 11th level characters (LA +0 races/ECL 11) and it's going swimmingly.

Another dude in the party is a Half-Celestial Human Psychic Rogue 7 (ECL 11) and that also is presenting no problems.

There seems to be a lot of talk on the boards lately (often heated) about how LA's are horrendous/unbalanced/"suck ass" etc. They seem to be working out just fine in our group.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nat_20 03-21-07, 12:11 AM	Does anyone else think drow are over charged for a level adjustment??? +2 seems a little much, but the spell resistance is cool, anyone have any comments???
runestar 03-21-07, 12:13 AM	I dunno - +1 seems a tad too cheap either...:P
Nat_20 03-21-07, 12:18 AM	remove the SR, +1 good???
Maraxus 03-21-07, 12:19 AM	The SR is definitly the most powerful ability. Yes, with this removed, it looks like a fair, average LA +1
Nat_20 03-21-07, 12:23 AM	yeah, but i think i'll stick with my half-drow half-elf home brew race
Asadeseth 03-21-07, 01:02 AM	Yhea but Drow are so cool their worth a +2 LA... Okay jokeing aside, while they are a bit week for a +2 LA, they are to strong for a +1 LA, the removal of the MR sounds about fair for scailing them back a level.
Treymordin 03-21-07, 01:29 AM	What if you wer eplaying an all drow game, would the +2La still count?
Nat_20 03-21-07, 01:33 AM	i would assume not, there are powerful compared to none lvl ajd races, so if everyone was a drow i guess you wouldnt need to worry about it, maybe throwing stuff one cr higher at them
Sleepwalker13666 03-21-07, 01:42 AM	I've often felt drow are underpowered for a +2 but they are definitly above +1. Maybe if they did'nt have that light vulnerbility they would make a decent +2.
Nat_20 03-21-07, 01:56 AM	dropping the spell resistance would be fine, a good +1 race if i do say so, the racial spells give them that tasty drow seasoning, i wouldnt wanna get rid of that
Vrykolas2k 03-21-07, 02:05 AM	I'd say +2 in the Underdark, with all of their abilities... on the surface, they lose most or all of their spell-like abilities, so I'd make them +1.
Perun 03-21-07, 02:35 AM	I'd say +2 in the Underdark, with all of their abilities... on the surface, they lose most or all of their spell-like abilities, so I'd make them +1. Before somebody gets confused, this is how things worked before 3e (and thus in a number of drow-themed novels); now, drow retain all of their abilities even if they psend their whole lives on the surface. Regards.
Nat_20 03-21-07, 02:44 AM	Well a cool way of doing it would have a group of surface dwelling drow who have lost Lolths favor and lose their Spell Resistance and spell like abilities and have not penalty to light... seem cool?
Finfreeze 03-21-07, 08:08 AM	Personally, I think they're weak. Just compare them to sprites. A drow gets (penalties in italics): +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha (Net +4) Size: Medium Base Land Speed: 30' Low-Light Vision Darkvision 120' Light Blindness Spell Resistance 11 + Class Levels (40% chance of blocking) Immune to magic sleep and ghoul (but not ghast) paralysis Auto-search secret doors +2 racial bonus on will saves vs. spells and spell-like abilities +2 racial bonus on saves vs. enchantments +2 listen, search, spot Dancing Lights, Darkness, and Faerie Fire 1/day Automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, and short sword The nixie, one of the weaker sprites, has the following benefits (ditto): -4 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +8 Cha (Net +14, +10 vs. Drow) Size: Small Base Land Speed: 20' Base Swim Speed: 30' Amphibious Low-Light Vision SR 16 + Class Levels (base 60% chance of blocking spells) Damage Reduction 5/Cold Iron Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats Charm Person 3/day (24 hour duration), Water Breathing 1/day Wild Empathy +2 bonus on listen, search, and spot +5 bonus to hide when underwater +6 bonus to wild empathy checks Automatically proficient with simple weapons and the short sword (whoo!) That's for 1 LA more. And since the nixie doesn't have a constitution penalty, it'll eventually overcome the drow in HP even with boosters. Then of course the pixie goes ahead and beats the nixie into the ground with good flight, even higher stats, better damage reduction, greater invisibility, and a point of natural armor that comes out of nowhere (since when do pixies have armor-like skin?). So yeah, I think drow are far, far closer to LA +1 as-is than LA +2.
runestar 03-21-07, 08:32 AM	Technically, one cannot be sure if the nixie's sr actually scales with class lvs, though it is not an unreasonable extrapolation...:P
Finfreeze 03-21-07, 09:01 AM	...Also known as the curse of not having an "Xs as Characters" entry.
Vrykolas2k 03-21-07, 10:43 AM	Before somebody gets confused, this is how things worked before 3e (and thus in a number of drow-themed novels); now, drow retain all of their abilities even if they psend their whole lives on the surface. Regards. 1st, 2nd, & 3rd editions... and supported by novels, which are considered canon by many... I'd say they lose the abilities until they return to the Underdark for some time.
Treymordin 03-21-07, 11:18 AM	Is that still the case in 3.0 and later editions of the game?
Skeetweasel 03-21-07, 11:26 AM	1st, 2nd, & 3rd editions... and supported by novels, which are considered canon by many... I'd say they lose the abilities until they return to the Underdark for some time. Novels are far from canon, and no where in 3.5 does it state that drow lose any abilities on the surface. Just that they are blinded for a round and dazzled if they stay in bright sunlight. And until my PHB says I need to read a novel to play, I will never allow a story to dictate rules.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-21-07, 11:28 AM	No. As of 3.0E and continued in 3.5E, drow do not lose their abilities, nor does their equipment decay in sunlight, or any of the other traits of previous editions. In previous editions, the whole idea that they lost their abilities was done to "balance" them with standard races. In 3.0E+, we have LA to accomplish that. In previous editions, the "decays in sunlight" was expressly added (in the original module) solely to prevent magical items from getting into the hands of the players. 3.0E+ no longer considers this a cardinal sin. WotC folks have also elaborated on why it's bad game design on other levels.
Perun 03-21-07, 11:32 AM	1st, 2nd, & 3rd editions... Please, give reference for this claim. 1e and 2e is right, but I can't remember a single 3e, and more specifically, 3.5e reference that would support it, including the FR Underdark, Races of Faerūn accessories or the plain 3.5 MM. and supported by novels, which are considered canon by many... I'd say they lose the abilities until they return to the Underdark for some time. I'd dare say that most of the drow-related novels were written before 2000, and thus predate D&D 3e (and I'm primarily thinking Drizzt novels and Elaine Cunnigham's Daughter of the Drow series). Regards. Edit: Beaten to it by Skeetweasel and Neutronium_Dragon.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-21-07, 11:39 AM	Here's what one of them had to say about the decaying equipment (and he cites several other developers in the process): http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/drowitemsdontdecay.html
Bopple 03-21-07, 12:14 PM	Is Drow weak? Well, look at Svirfneblin. Now, that is WEAK.
Perun 03-21-07, 12:16 PM	Does anyone else think drow are over charged for a level adjustment??? +2 seems a little much, but the spell resistance is cool, anyone have any comments??? I don't think they're overcharged. However, I do recomment using the LA Buy-Off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) rules (originally from Unearthed Arcana, now also in the SRD), as any LA becomes a hindrance as the character advances in levels -- what was useful at lower levels simply isn't as good at higher levels. Drow get just about everything the (high) elves get, plus +2 Int, +2 Cha darkvision 120 ft. (this replaces elven low-light vision) spell-like abilities (two 0-level spells, one 2nd-level spell) bonus to Will saves (+2 vs. spell and spell-like effects, presumably stacks with the elven bonus vs. enchantment effects) spell resistance (11 + HD) This is offset by light blindness. I'd say spell resistance alone s worth +1 LA (even though it's a mixed blessing), and the rest of their abilities push them to +2.
Zumarai 03-21-07, 12:27 PM	Isn't there a drow (and an aasimar/tiefling) variant with no LA adjustment in one the 3rd edition FR products?
Neutronium_Dragon 03-21-07, 12:37 PM	Yes. The "lesser" variants are in the Player's Guide to Faerun. There are entries for drow, duergar, deep gnomes, and planetouched.
Vrykolas2k 03-21-07, 04:35 PM	Novels are far from canon, and no where in 3.5 does it state that drow lose any abilities on the surface. Just that they are blinded for a round and dazzled if they stay in bright sunlight. And until my PHB says I need to read a novel to play, I will never allow a story to dictate rules. Oooo, rules. Never mind story and role-playing... let's do some roll-playing! Really, this is what annoys me the most about the current edition; it seems to ignore anything but how to make the most hideously powerful character imaginable.
Vrykolas2k 03-21-07, 04:37 PM	Please, give reference for this claim. 1e and 2e is right, but I can't remember a single 3e, and more specifically, 3.5e reference that would support it, including the FR Underdark, Races of Faerūn accessories or the plain 3.5 MM. I'd dare say that most of the drow-related novels were written before 2000, and thus predate D&D 3e (and I'm primarily thinking Drizzt novels and Elaine Cunnigham's Daughter of the Drow series). Regards. Edit: Beaten to it by Skeetweasel and Neutronium_Dragon. The 3rd edition campaign book for Forgotten Realms; the NPCs living on the surface are lacking the abilities. War of the Spider Queen is a more recent series...
DaidojiTaidoru 03-21-07, 04:42 PM	The 3rd edition campaign book for Forgotten Realms; the NPCs living on the surface are lacking the abilities. War of the Spider Queen is a more recent series... As per the Windwalker novel Drow magic now works on the surface. Edit: And on a rules related note in my opinion, without SR the Drow is a LA 1 and without the Int and Cha bonuses a good LA 0. The spells are, past really low levels, not even worth mentioning other then as flavor.
Silvercrys 03-21-07, 05:06 PM	Oooo, rules. Never mind story and role-playing... let's do some roll-playing! Really, this is what annoys me the most about the current edition; it seems to ignore anything but how to make the most hideously powerful character imaginable. Ok. So everyone that uses 3e rules is a powergamer? :rolleyes: Just because some people CAN make powerful characters (CharOp, Pun-Pun in particular comes to mind) doesn't mean that all of us are power gamers that ignore good stories in favor of the rules. My group plays 3e and we don't follow every rule there is. Perun was merely pointing out that in 3e things have changed. In fact, as DaidojiTaidoru pointed out, the novels now have Drow retaining their abilites on the surface. If you play your games with Drow losing powers and items while out of the Underdark, that's fine. You don't need to come here and say that that is the rule though. Because it quite clearly isn't.
Perun 03-21-07, 05:28 PM	The 3rd edition campaign book for Forgotten Realms; the NPCs living on the surface are lacking the abilities. Where? I'm looking at Jezz the Lame's description as I'm typing this, and it clearly mentions "drow traits" in the stat block. War of the Spider Queen is a more recent series... I read through the whole six books, and I can't recall where the (supposed) losing of their racial abilities was mentioned.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-21-07, 05:32 PM	Oooo, rules. Never mind story and role-playing... let's do some roll-playing! Really, this is what annoys me the most about the current edition; it seems to ignore anything but how to make the most hideously powerful character imaginable. Dude, they made drow completely useless in 3rd edition for PC use, you're complaining about a part where 3E is UNDERpowered, not OVER. Back on topic: It has been stated before that the LA's were set to discourage people from playing nonstandard races. You can safely drop most of the LA's without issue and still have what passes as "balanced" for 3E.
Joesph_kurr 03-21-07, 05:34 PM	you could give the Drow a -2 to CHA (because of there rep.) and drop the SR to 5+LV making it more of a curse then a blessing at latter LV
The_Shaman 03-21-07, 05:50 PM	I think decreasing the SR to 5+HD or even to the dwarven bonus to saves would make them an acceptable LA+1.
Treymordin 03-22-07, 01:10 AM	I would leave them as they are, but take away the adjustment. The DROW are just too cool!:D
runestar 03-22-07, 01:32 AM	They did that in DDO.:P
Treymordin 03-22-07, 09:01 AM	DDO?
Perun 03-22-07, 10:33 AM	DDO? I suspect that's Dungeons & Dragons Online (http://www.ddo.com/).
Suzaku455 03-22-07, 04:51 PM	you could give the Drow a -2 to CHA (because of there rep.) and drop the SR to 5+LV making it more of a curse then a blessing at latter LV Then Warewolfs, undead, Kobolds etc should also get a -2 cha because of their bad reputation. Cha is the measurement of force of personality, hell even most intelligent undead have above average and in most cases actually gain Cha. Races like Dwarfs were groomed to follow a strict & rigid life style for sake of the clan should have a lower Cha because less individualism exist in their culture. Even the high and mighty elves with their stereotype of calling themselves the best race and all other races are just children don't even get a CHA penalty.
Suzaku455 03-22-07, 04:55 PM	Don't bother bringing up Half-orcs as they're just the result of Wizard being paranoid about Str as being the best stat of all time and thus requires two ability decrease.
Nat_20 03-22-07, 09:31 PM	Well, i just thought of an idea for my new campaign... High born nobles have the spell resistance, and lower ranked ones dont, and thus lvl adj +1 instead of +2, and any good aligned drow characters have "Dark legacy" 25% of NPC's start of on level worse when determining attitude (unfriendly would be hostel for example) and no lvl adj What do ya think
Joesph_kurr 03-22-07, 09:51 PM	I like it
The_Shaman 03-23-07, 09:49 AM	No SR at all might be a bit tough... Any chance on the dwarven bonus, at least?
Rump_Wrangler 03-23-07, 09:59 AM	A buddy of mine is playing a Drow Psion 9 (ECL 11) in a party of 11th level characters (LA +0 races/ECL 11) and it's going swimmingly. Another dude in the party is a Half-Celestial Human Psychic Rogue 7 (ECL 11) and that also is presenting no problems. There seems to be a lot of talk on the boards lately (often heated) about how LA's are horrendous/unbalanced/"suck ass" etc. They seem to be working out just fine in our group.