Dwarves and the break from Canon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dwarves and the break from Canon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Moorefallen
07-05-07, 05:16 PM I have been involved in a discussion about Dwarven Origins recently and basically was wondering why there was a break from
original canon in that dwarves where not allowed to be of Arcane nature. I understand that Dwarves have always been a magical race, but their magic was from divinity driven sources not arcane, so i came here to ask why in the 3rd ed did we break from original canon, The fact that a dwarf makes a great spell caster because of stats is irrelevant in the discussion. we are talking about breaking from origins and why it was done with out story to support it?
Thanks for your replys ahead of time
V/R Moorefallen
Crimson_Concerto
07-05-07, 05:21 PM Probably because nobody cares about the default, or "canon," D&D mythology or storyline.
Moorefallen
07-05-07, 05:27 PM LOL Thats prob very true
Neutronium_Dragon
07-05-07, 05:38 PM In short, it was realized that "Gimli wasn't a wizard" was not sufficient reason for D&D dwarves to not be wizards.
Lawlicron
07-05-07, 05:51 PM I know its irrelevant, but they do make great casters.
Moorefallen
07-05-07, 06:00 PM Let me define the Canon for you guys the 3rd ed DND book uses the world of Oreth as a Templete to an extent. So when 3rd edition was created why did it break from the traditional Canon for Dwarves of that setting. Trying to avoid the Road of Tolkein fellas sorry.
highbulp
07-05-07, 06:14 PM In earlier editions of the game (namely 2e, which is what I have experience with), certain classes were limited to certain races. For example, only humans could be paladins. If you allow that restriction to exist, then it seems perfectly fine to arbitrarily say that dwarves can't use magic.

However, when 3e came out, it looks like the designers made the conscious decision to allow every race to be able to play every class--they decided (rightly so IMO) that such restrictions didn't serve to make the game funner. So once you allow every class to be available to every race, then you can have dwarven wizards. Not allowing that race/class combination breaks with the spirit and intent of the 3e ruleset.

The mechanics of the game changed for the better, and that involved breaking away from the original "canon," if you want to call it that.
Moorefallen
07-05-07, 06:24 PM Thats a very good point, Glad you made it!
ragoftag
07-05-07, 07:11 PM With the arrival of d20. The designers drew in so much of the games WotC bought during the '90s that canon was only a tiny part of the raw material they had to draw upon. I have been to convention 'rant' sessions that bemoan most of the other changes, but this is the first I've actually heard of someone 'noticing' dwarves' new found Class option. This said, several games I know of, including mine, have race/class restrictions, yet none forbid dwarf wizards. Each of these 'worlds' has integral factors that make such restrictions matter.

Most folks feel free to build their own worlds, adding a personal stamp to them. Do your dwarves have reasons to not study magic? Or to ride horses (Soveriegn Stone)? Hey, its your world.
Return of the Flumph
07-06-07, 02:00 AM The funny thing is, dwarves have powerful arcane magic in pretty much every mythology they exist in. Even Tolkein's dwarves probably had magic (although Gimli was a fighter). Indeed, in The Hobbit it is shown that they made some impressive magical artifacts.

The DnD game designers were not being true to ANY source whatsoever when they disallowed dwarven wizards.
Hideous Phidias
07-06-07, 05:58 AM Funny thing is in Tolkien's stories there was no arcane casters. The "wizards" were nothing but divine casters that were called wizards by the people of Middle Earth. They were five minor gods or spirits that came from over the sea from the Valar. They were called Maiar. Their powers were more divine or spell-like abilities then any arcane spell caster. The elven magic was not arcane either, it seemed to be a cross of druidism and psionics. At the end of the LotR the party of high powered elves, (Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, and a fe others I can not remember) and Gandalf sat around while the hobbits sleeping and talk to each other in their minds. The Silmarilan has elves using illusions but these could just be psionic effects too. The dwarves have magic but like in so many setting the dwarves are largely left out of the main focus. This means we know little about their magic, the could make arms and armor as well as lamps and doors. In my option the best bet for an arcane caster in Tolkien would be a dwarf but Iwould put them more as artificers then true arcane.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moorefallen 07-05-07, 05:16 PM	I have been involved in a discussion about Dwarven Origins recently and basically was wondering why there was a break from original canon in that dwarves where not allowed to be of Arcane nature. I understand that Dwarves have always been a magical race, but their magic was from divinity driven sources not arcane, so i came here to ask why in the 3rd ed did we break from original canon, The fact that a dwarf makes a great spell caster because of stats is irrelevant in the discussion. we are talking about breaking from origins and why it was done with out story to support it? Thanks for your replys ahead of time V/R Moorefallen
Crimson_Concerto 07-05-07, 05:21 PM	Probably because nobody cares about the default, or "canon," D&D mythology or storyline.
Moorefallen 07-05-07, 05:27 PM	LOL Thats prob very true
Neutronium_Dragon 07-05-07, 05:38 PM	In short, it was realized that "Gimli wasn't a wizard" was not sufficient reason for D&D dwarves to not be wizards.
Lawlicron 07-05-07, 05:51 PM	I know its irrelevant, but they do make great casters.
Moorefallen 07-05-07, 06:00 PM	Let me define the Canon for you guys the 3rd ed DND book uses the world of Oreth as a Templete to an extent. So when 3rd edition was created why did it break from the traditional Canon for Dwarves of that setting. Trying to avoid the Road of Tolkein fellas sorry.
highbulp 07-05-07, 06:14 PM	In earlier editions of the game (namely 2e, which is what I have experience with), certain classes were limited to certain races. For example, only humans could be paladins. If you allow that restriction to exist, then it seems perfectly fine to arbitrarily say that dwarves can't use magic. However, when 3e came out, it looks like the designers made the conscious decision to allow every race to be able to play every class--they decided (rightly so IMO) that such restrictions didn't serve to make the game funner. So once you allow every class to be available to every race, then you can have dwarven wizards. Not allowing that race/class combination breaks with the spirit and intent of the 3e ruleset. The mechanics of the game changed for the better, and that involved breaking away from the original "canon," if you want to call it that.
Moorefallen 07-05-07, 06:24 PM	Thats a very good point, Glad you made it!
ragoftag 07-05-07, 07:11 PM	With the arrival of d20. The designers drew in so much of the games WotC bought during the '90s that canon was only a tiny part of the raw material they had to draw upon. I have been to convention 'rant' sessions that bemoan most of the other changes, but this is the first I've actually heard of someone 'noticing' dwarves' new found Class option. This said, several games I know of, including mine, have race/class restrictions, yet none forbid dwarf wizards. Each of these 'worlds' has integral factors that make such restrictions matter. Most folks feel free to build their own worlds, adding a personal stamp to them. Do your dwarves have reasons to not study magic? Or to ride horses (Soveriegn Stone)? Hey, its your world.
Return of the Flumph 07-06-07, 02:00 AM	The funny thing is, dwarves have powerful arcane magic in pretty much every mythology they exist in. Even Tolkein's dwarves probably had magic (although Gimli was a fighter). Indeed, in The Hobbit it is shown that they made some impressive magical artifacts. The DnD game designers were not being true to ANY source whatsoever when they disallowed dwarven wizards.
Hideous Phidias 07-06-07, 05:58 AM	Funny thing is in Tolkien's stories there was no arcane casters. The "wizards" were nothing but divine casters that were called wizards by the people of Middle Earth. They were five minor gods or spirits that came from over the sea from the Valar. They were called Maiar. Their powers were more divine or spell-like abilities then any arcane spell caster. The elven magic was not arcane either, it seemed to be a cross of druidism and psionics. At the end of the LotR the party of high powered elves, (Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, and a fe others I can not remember) and Gandalf sat around while the hobbits sleeping and talk to each other in their minds. The Silmarilan has elves using illusions but these could just be psionic effects too. The dwarves have magic but like in so many setting the dwarves are largely left out of the main focus. This means we know little about their magic, the could make arms and armor as well as lamps and doors. In my option the best bet for an arcane caster in Tolkien would be a dwarf but Iwould put them more as artificers then true arcane.