Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drizztrocks 09-21-07, 10:48 PM	There are two HUGE race choices in the game. Elves are graceful, buetiful, and there combat is based on skill. A dwarf is hardy, can fit more ale in themselves then three barrels full, and there combat is based on power. To me, these are the two most different races in the game. Now, i have made a prediction that a war will be made out of this subject- whitch one: elves, or dwarves. :cool:
Dragoncat 09-22-07, 12:34 AM	Dwarves. Why? Because elves are liars. Sure, they will tell you their magic is supreme. They prattle on about their bonds with nature, mystical abilities, and dedication to art and beauty. They'll brag about being masters of swordplay and archery as well. Elves will lay claim to any environment, asserting that they have mastery over that domain, the best possible architecture, and the best possible traits. Elves lie. Look upon their stats, yea people, and see something amazing. They have no natural magic. They have no boons to dealing with nature. Gnomes, cousins of the dwarves, do, however. The average elven swordsman is no better than a human a century younger, both have the same accuracy. Their missile weapon abilities have no benefit beyond dexterity, and halflings exceed them. Moreover, the hin also defeat the elves in any regards to stealth, and are equally if not more nimble and accurate in all respects. Finally, elves have no crafting bonuses whatsoever. No, my friends. These myths of beautiful, haunting creatures of grace and magic are nothing but lies. Let me tell you what elves really are. Let us begin at their beginning. As a child, the common elf is the result of a ritualistic spawning practiced by two elven parents. No, not an elven father and mother, elves actually have no permanent gender. Instead, their androgynous forms gradually grow to mimic the normal reproductive traits of other, greater species, and any given elf can transition between the two. Photographic evidence, vaguely female to vaguely male: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97122.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG56_WEB.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/spellcomp_gallery/92178.jpg During the ritual, which is far to disgusting for mortal ears, a new elven larva is created. Elven physiology is a difficult subject, as their natural form is so very difficult to pinpoint. It is interesting to note that, despite poor constitution, an elf possesses an incredibly long lifespan. This is because elven biology is based not around protecting itself from disease, but from absorbing it. Elves draw filth, parasites, and other damaging creatures into their systems, becoming a hive of festering decay. As a result, their body changes to mimic its surroundings. Underwater, an elf is full of vicious sea-based microbes, while in a city, it will contain more garden-variety corruption. Thus, rather than be an eventual victim of disease, elves instead thrive in it, becoming hosts to plagues they can spread across the world. An elf absorbs surrounding filth. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/spellcomp_gallery/92242.jpg A water elf, fully stocked with watery parasites. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/storm_gallery/90752.jpg A swamp elf. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/storm_gallery/90769.jpg Now, many skeptics will now claim that elves should die when subjected to such putrescence. This would normally be the case, if it were not for the single magical ability elves naturally possess. By channeling their connection to the defilement, elves can pass on their blight to surrounding creatures, particularly in the form of sabotaging expecting mothers. Concentrating their vile witchery on the unborn, an elf creates an inner plague in another being, supplementing their own lifespan with that of an innocent. Yes, my friends, it is true. Elves cause cancer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI) Elven cancer, or Elfrot, usually effects young women, sometimes men, gradually destroying them from the inside out. It is an insidious disorder, one that can take years to manifest completely, by which time the elf has retreated back to its underground mire, wallowing in more carrion. A terrible, heartrending tragedy, one that has struck many upstanding dwarven and human communities. Mira Forgerunner, the poor lass... ... ... Pardon me, I need a moment. ... ... Apologies, long memories of a time far gone. Moving on... From an early age, these elf spawnlings are instructed in insidious means of violence, for elves are naturally inclined towards causing discord. By withholding food, elven parents ensure that their next generation will be similarly gaunt and withered, allowing them to add disguising features quite easily, squirm through the tiniest spaces to infiltrate houses, and escape capture when quarantined by upstanding citizens. All elves are trained in weapons suitable for dishonorable combat, from backstabbing with rapiers to sniping and fleeing via long ranged missile fire. Furthermore, they are attuned to the portals of their dank caverns, their senses honed in the pulsating light of scavenged luminescent fungi, allowing them to lurk for extremely long periods of time, even years. Elves then spread out across the world, bringing with them their putrid cargo. By planting themselves near honest communities, they sow rot and grime from a place of refuge, fueling their lifespan. Lurking in the shadows, elves will go to great lengths to acquire magical items to hide their natural disfigurements. Their favorite targets are wizards, and by learning their habits and methods, elves prey upon them during their sleep. Through huge amounts of stolen magic, usually claimed after the honest wizard has succumbed to an infestation of Elfrot or been stabbed in the back, elves are finally capable of entering their adult phase of plague. Walking amongst the living, using massive illusions to hide their wretched forms, elves sow further strife in society. After managing to find a suitable innocent to host their plague, and elf creates the vile Elfrot, then retreats to a den. Often, an elf will corrupt the surrounding landscape, infusing it with filth and decay to create a lair. Lurking in the deep recesses of the putrefaction, the elf is free to subsist on the innocent's life force for many years. A grove, corrupted by the fungal-like spores of a elven filth http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/row_gallery/86612.jpg Breaking this putrid, parasitic bond is nearly impossible without finding the vile elf, purifying its noxious lair, and ending its corruption completely. Unfortunately, stamping out the elven menace is very difficult, as they can wallow in their lairs for more than the average human's lifespan, sapping the strength of the unwary and innocent. I therefore urge all adventurers to be wary of this plague upon our good lands, and to strive to curb its corruptive influence for the good of all. Kilroth Hammertong, Impartial Scholar
Threefists 09-22-07, 12:41 AM	Dwarf. To decompose a old 'greeny song' and illustrate my feelings towards the two races in question... "Sharpen up your axes, fire up the bellows c'mon all you bastards, we gotta log another load! And you lot on the dozer, just run the bastards over bunch o' long-eared hippy poofters out there laying on the road! Rip rip wood chip whadda lot o' bull-sh*t cut it all down and sell it to the Thays No worries eh mate? turn it into scrolls mate! They're only bloody Elves mate, who gives a crap?" Okay, that was shockingly horrible, even by my standards, but Dwarves Forever. Sorry, I suffer from DMD syndrome (Drizzit Must Die)
The_Shaman 09-22-07, 03:51 AM	I like both, in moderation (as in: fanboys of both annoy me almost as much as O fanboys or K fanboys). I might be leaning a bit towards dwarves too, though.
LoneStranger 09-22-07, 04:36 AM	Huge fan of Dwarves, try to play them any chance I get. The main reason why is racial descriptions I read a while back (in another rules set though *GASP* The horror!!!). It said that Elves move in a way as the mood strikes them, live in harmony with nature, and just generally grate on my nerves. Dwarves on the other hand are very much grounded in reality, they deal with the here and now as well as plan for the future, and create some very solid weapons and armor. Of course it helps that I have about half a dozen books with Dwarven ways to make armor and weapons better compared with one elf book that I picked up more for the feats that can be used generally. Plus there's something to be said for going into Assault mode anytime combat happens, going in swinging and bogging down enough of them to let the rest of the group help take them out. And remember kids, as the T-shirt says: If it's not Dwarven, it's CARP! (yes it is misspelled on purpose).
BoDiddilly 09-22-07, 10:18 AM	:D WOW dwarves are pown. Let me add some fuel to the fire. The Dwarf is the most flavorful, hardass, boot stomping core race. They are completely metal and superior to elves in every way. Just look at there racial stat. Elf, low light vision / Dwarf, Darkvision Elf, +2 dex, -2 Con / Dwarf, +2 Con -2 Cha Elf, sword and bow profs / Dwarf, Dwarven waraxe (One handed D10 ) Elf, senses hiden door / Dwarf, stonecunning Elf, spot, listen, and seach bonus / Dwarf, +2 vs arcane or poison Elf, ---------- / Dwarf, bonus vs gaints and orcs Elf, 30ft speed / Dwarf, 20ft speed Kind of a one sided battle. The elf is really only suited for Rangers, Sorcerers, archers, and perhaps other dex based fighters. Sense Str based fighter seem much better then dex based fighters anyways, thats not saying much. Who wants to hit the front lines down 2 con anyways, or in this case 4 con.
The_Shaman 09-22-07, 01:55 PM	Sorcerers? Wizards, probably, but for sorcerers they only get bonus to dexterity and free bow/sword proficiency. Then again, dwarves make amazing wizards, too.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 09-22-07, 02:52 PM	Personally I favor dwarves mostly because they are the best at what I like to do in this game, kill things. I mean they get an exotic weapon. A dodge bonus versus giant an attack bonus against goblins and orcs. And unless you run into a bunch of secret doors that are made of wood stonecunning will do the same thing. But personally I enjoy both and I just happen to be on the dwarf side this time because I've played them so much.
Malchius 09-22-07, 03:32 PM	I personally prefer Elves to Dwarves when roleplaying and I prefer playing Chaotic to Lawful so Elves are more common of what I play. I personally dislike standard PHB High Elves but I enjoy the MM Subraces particularily Wild Elves. I like Dwarves too though, I've only ever played one but he was possibly my favourite character ever; I also think that the PHB Dwarf outshines the PHB Elf in nearly every way. Overall though, I prefer the Elves. Nothing can beat a Human though!
Optimator 09-22-07, 03:38 PM	Damn, Dragoncat, you went all-out with that! Nothing can beat a Human though! Pretty much. Add one more vote to dwarves. I don't really dislike elves though. Except one: Night Elves. Stupidest race ever.
Ian0311 09-22-07, 03:43 PM	I like dwarves. I'm no fanboy, but I just like the dwarves better. Maybe I just don't like frailer creatures, maybe just because I like a good beard and an axe!
InkBlot 09-22-07, 03:59 PM	Dragoncat, you win. You win so hardcore. You win D&D. And all the internets. Forever. Dwarves. Why? Because elves are liars. Sure, they will tell you their magic is supreme. They prattle on about their bonds with nature, mystical abilities, and dedication to art and beauty. They'll brag about being masters of swordplay and archery as well. Elves will lay claim to any environment, asserting that they have mastery over that domain, the best possible architecture, and the best possible traits. Elves lie. Look upon their stats, yea people, and see something amazing. They have no natural magic. They have no boons to dealing with nature. Gnomes, cousins of the dwarves, do, however. The average elven swordsman is no better than a human a century younger, both have the same accuracy. Their missile weapon abilities have no benefit beyond dexterity, and halflings exceed them. Moreover, the hin also defeat the elves in any regards to stealth, and are equally if not more nimble and accurate in all respects. Finally, elves have no crafting bonuses whatsoever. No, my friends. These myths of beautiful, haunting creatures of grace and magic are nothing but lies. Let me tell you what elves really are (...) I hate D&D elves. Elves/fairies in old mythology and some contemporary fiction I read long ago but can't remember the titles of where cool. Very cool. But D&D and elf fanboys ruin it for everybody. In D&D, I'll play a gnome if I want to play a naturally magical character with a connection to fey and nature.
Bauglir 09-22-07, 04:00 PM	Dwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrvvvvvves . To hell with elves. And I agree completely with everything Dragoncat said. That was winsome. To sum it up for those too lazy to read the whole thing (by which I mean elves), "Elves have leprosy as well."
DwarfPcfan 09-22-07, 04:01 PM	War between dwarves and elves. Dwarves without question. Dwarves are tactically minded, team players and relenthless warriors. They surround an elven fortress and lay siege for weeks and starve the elves out. It's not an insult to elves (I do like elves) but that fact of the matter is that in every book, enhancement, etc. ever made dwarves prove their might as soldiers, warriors, etc. Not only that but their very culture is geared with the idea of war.More importantly, team work is seen as the most important factor in even basic survival. So on one side we have a chaotic artistically bent race of frail people with an inkling to magic. On the other, we have a lawful race with a proud warrior tradition that stretches back to the dawn of time. Centuries of experience fighting the worse scourges of the underdark, a physique suited to long brutal warfare and an unquenshable will to survive and succeed. Dwarves over elves anyday... Oh and Optimator and to light the flames even more. Dwarves over humans anyday. There is no conclusive evidence that humans would win and their qualities offer no evidence of human supreriority and people should get that in their heads...
Bauglir 09-22-07, 04:08 PM	EDIT: Er, how'd I double post... with a post in the middle... when I clicked the edit button. I am shamed by this turn of events. Ignore this.
thefishcometh 09-22-07, 04:45 PM	I'm not going to lie. I hate elves. It seems like in every sourcebook elves are put up as these environmentalist, perfect, supermen. (Note that I'm an environmentalist myself, but elves are so bloody arrogant about it.) It's always "Great Elven technology this, great elven magic that." An example: who ever heard of seafaring elves? Someone at WotC did, and in Storwrack elves are given the best ship, hands down. They always get some super-magic, too. Mythals, anyone? Perfect little pansies. All the elves that appear in my games I turn on their head. They're haughty, xenophobic, and incredibly arrogant. Standard D&D elves grate on me so much. Wild Elves are more what I like, and drow are interesting, although they have recently been suffering from perfection as well. I say, lodge your axe in one of those pointy-eared treehuggers. A dwarven phalanx will smash those leafy pansies any day of the week.
RikuKupo 09-22-07, 05:09 PM	I agree, the only thing the elf wingship has over the dwarven ironclad is that it can run away. IIRC the ironclad can carry more than twice the weaponry of the wingship and can take more punishment. That being said, I like the gnome submersible myself :P
Drizztrocks 09-22-07, 10:04 PM	Okay, I'm still not done luaghing from Dragoncats post. It was very funny, no dought, but i do really like elves. I mean, dwarves are also great, but i think it takes more imagination to play an elf, because, like you say, they don't get any natural bonuses, or inborn magic, or anything like that. But elves do NOT suck. And drow ROCK. I'm just more into a graceful swordfighting and bow character then a little tank full of ale and a heart full of fury. :) No offense to dwarves, and i figure all dwarf lovers also know this, a dwarf can fit alot of ale in himself. And, for the record, i like dwarves alot. When i'm running a campaighn i give elves bonuses on nature information checks, handle animal checks, animal empathy checks, bonuses with the bow, and bonuses when using the longsword and skimatar.
Drizztrocks 09-22-07, 10:06 PM	P.S: dragoncat, I really thought you bring up something about elves ahving aids after that whole multi-gender larava thing. :)
Disciple_of_Salsa 09-22-07, 11:03 PM	I like elves. Pointy ears make me laugh.
The_Unseen_Illusion 09-22-07, 11:13 PM	Yeah, it does bug me that the source books say that elves are superior to everyone in everything, but I'd perfer elves over dwarves any day. The basic elves are alright, but once we get into the subraces, elves pawn dwarves ANY day. There are the: -High elves, basic (+DEX -CON) Box Prof. and longsword and rapier, IMMUNE TO SLEEP EFFECTS, +'s on Spot, Listen, Search (thats useful), +'S on enchantments -Aquatic Elves for exotic campaigns (+DEX -INT) Swims, can't be out of water for hours equal to CON modifier, 4x Lowlight vision, which is sometimes better than Darkvision -Gray Elves for the wizards (+INT +DEX -CON -STR) -Wild Elf for those who don't like the CON damage of a normal elf( +DEX -INT) -Wood Elves, for those who don't want to be an Orc for the + to STR (+STR +DEX -INT -CON) -Half Elves, for those who don't know what Humans are, and +'s to Diplomancy and Gather Info Dwarves, on the other hand: -Dwarf, basic (+CON -CHA) Darkvision, +'s to goblins and orcs, AC+ to giants, Prof. with Dwarven Waraxes, Stability, +'s on Poisons WOW!!! THAT IT ON THE DWARVES BEHALF! You all don't like elves just for roleplaying reasons. But in truth, Elves are hell of a lot more versatile then the molerats dwarves.
Horatio Hornblower 09-23-07, 09:53 AM	I'm not going to lie. I hate elves. It seems like in every sourcebook elves are put up as these environmentalist, perfect, supermen. (Note that I'm an environmentalist myself, but elves are so bloody arrogant about it.) It's always "Great Elven technology this, great elven magic that." An example: who ever heard of seafaring elves? Someone at WotC did, and in Storwrack elves are given the best ship, hands down. They always get some super-magic, too. Mythals, anyone? Perfect little pansies. All the elves that appear in my games I turn on their head. They're haughty, xenophobic, and incredibly arrogant. Standard D&D elves grate on me so much. Wild Elves are more what I like, and drow are interesting, although they have recently been suffering from perfection as well. I say, lodge your axe in one of those pointy-eared treehuggers. A dwarven phalanx will smash those leafy pansies any day of the week. The elf superiority thing is too much. There are waaaay too many subraces. I stick with the PHB elves and the aquatic elves. That's it. In my campaign humans make the best ships. The aquatic elves don't need ships and most high elves stay in the forests. The dwarves control the mountain range and I use seacliff dwarves where the mountains meet the sea. It's their continent, but the dwarves don't mind the other races hanging out along the plains and the coast since that land is useless to the dwarves. Anyway, the dwaven kingdoms could conquer the others whenever they wanted. I like playing elves and dwarves, but most of the time I can't resist the extra feat and skill points humans get. That's important in the campaigns I play in.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 09-23-07, 10:19 AM	Dwarves, on the other hand: -Dwarf, basic (+CON -CHA) Darkvision, +'s to goblins and orcs, AC+ to giants, Prof. with Dwarven Waraxes, Stability, +'s on Poisons WOW!!! THAT IT ON THE DWARVES BEHALF! You all don't like elves just for roleplaying reasons. But in truth, Elves are hell of a lot more versatile then the molerats dwarves. What about gray dwarves and deep dwarves and gold dwarves and shield dwarves and derro?
Naderion 09-23-07, 10:20 AM	I go with elves, because dwarves are not fun. Sure, I agree that they are cool, these stout invincible walking tanks and their courage and dedication are admireable. But I wouldn't want to play this myself. Making subraces a point, why elves are not cool, is really silly. It's not that you have to play in a setting with 24 elven subraces, it isn't even meant to be that way. Basically, there are four elven subraces, compared to three halflings and gnomes and five dwarves.
RaivokasMagma 09-23-07, 10:26 AM	Dwarves. Elves doesn't like everybody and dwarves are cooler
eleyas 09-23-07, 11:58 AM	I like both of these races, and i see ways that both would win such a war. Before you start yelling at me for being nuetral i think that elves would win this one. Now im no fan boy of either race, or any for that matter, but think about it elves would just sit back and pick of the dwarves from the trees. Now on to dragoncat's post you say that elves aren't magical beings, if that is the case please tell me why the get no penalties for subclassing in wizard.
Fenrir_Greyback 09-23-07, 12:23 PM	Gotta go with elves dudes... With the pluses to dexterity, and the secret doors sense I like em way better. Sure dwarves have huge strength and make great fighters and all, but they have no skill, no finesse, no charisma! Tho, if it came down to my favorite race, I'd take a half elf all the way.
Suzu 09-23-07, 12:57 PM	I can't stand either of them. I don't like anything that isn't human or a lot like it
Papapop 09-23-07, 01:16 PM	Dwarfs, no doubt about it. Any time i can play the race, I do. Ask my DM, its true. I've got 4 characters that are Dwarfs, and 1 human. For the Dawi! and Dragoncat, you just won teh intarwebs!!@312one.
The_Shaman 09-23-07, 01:19 PM	Dwarves, on the other hand: -Dwarf, basic (+CON -CHA) Darkvision, +'s to goblins and orcs, AC+ to giants, Prof. with Dwarven Waraxes, Stability, +'s on Poisons WOW!!! THAT IT ON THE DWARVES BEHALF! You all don't like elves just for roleplaying reasons. But in truth, Elves are hell of a lot more versatile then the molerats dwarves. Actually, there are quite a few dwarf races around. So far, here is what I remember regardless of setting: - dwarf/shield dwarf - mountain dwarf - deep dwarf - gold dwarf - duergar - urdunnir (I think those were the dream dwarves, correct me if wrong) - gully dwarf (don't know if it made the cut into 3.0) - sundered dwarf (likewise) - arctic dwarf - wild dwarf - derro (I'm not sure they're dwarves, but they look the part) I'm pretty sure there are more,particularly in the environment books (stormwrack, frostburn, sandstorm). Now, humans - there's a race without too many subraces (oh, it has a few).
ToxicWiz 09-23-07, 04:05 PM	Elf here. Stealth and grace just comes higher in my books. A dwarf is like a massive, dull hammer. It hits hard, and deals damage. It's sturdy, and will rarely let you down. an elf however is like a scapel. If your fast and percise, you can cut your opponents in ways some could never imagine, with very little excess damage. To those who can use it, a very effective tool. nothing really statistical there, but it's my view. It's how I play elves anyway...
Shimura 09-23-07, 04:21 PM	Whilst Dwarves are quite clearly superior rules wise... They are just not as cool! In no fiction/ film are short fat bearded guys cool. Look at LotR, Gimli is a comic figure whilst legolas does "cool" stuff. My wife also infoprms me that in all films elves are "fanciable" than short fat dwarves. Films & books like elves....
The_Unseen_Illusion 09-23-07, 04:27 PM	Actually, there are quite a few dwarf races around. So far, here is what I remember regardless of setting: - dwarf/shield dwarf - mountain dwarf - deep dwarf - gold dwarf - duergar - urdunnir (I think those were the dream dwarves, correct me if wrong) - gully dwarf (don't know if it made the cut into 3.0) - sundered dwarf (likewise) - arctic dwarf - wild dwarf - derro (I'm not sure they're dwarves, but they look the part) I'm pretty sure there are more,particularly in the environment books (stormwrack, frostburn, sandstorm). Now, humans - there's a race without too many subraces (oh, it has a few). I was speaking core because I havn't got those books
Yadot 09-23-07, 07:12 PM	On the top of hills stands the Orcish Warlord and his army. Upon the opposite hill climbs a Dwarf. He starts hurling insults upon the army until the Warlord speaks thus: "Kill that Dwarf" Immediately, several Orcs charge the Dwarf. He dodges behind the hill and the Orcs follow him. Sounds of battle and several screams later, the Dwarf climbs back and goes nyah-nyah-nyah at the Orcs. The Warlord looks at his elite bodyguard and telles them. "I want that Dwarf for breakfast!" The elite Orcs unsheathe their swords and charge. The Dwarf dodges behind the hill and the Orcs follow him. Sounds of battle and several screams later, the Dwarf climbs back and goes nyah-nyah-nyah at the Orcs. The Warlord, maddened by rage, orders his full army. "Get me that Dwarf's head on a pike!" The horde of Orcs charges and follows the Dwarf behind the hill (where he dodged). Sounds of battle and several screams later, a lonely Orc crawls up the hill, covered in blood and nearly dead. "Lord!" he shouts at the Warlord. "It's a trap! There's another Dwarf behind the hill!"Versus Why do Elves have pointy ears? Because there has to be some point to Elves. You decide.
The_Shaman 09-23-07, 08:15 PM	Ah, an unbiased opinion, for once. I thank you for the contribution, Sir. I was speaking core because I havn't got those books Ok, let's see the SRD. Elves: high, grey, wild, wood, drow. Dwarves: standard (hill), mountain, deep, duergar. Ok, let's say the mountain and hill are the same, since they're the same mechanically. Still, 3 distinct subraces isn't very bad. It's just that elves, for all their slow reproduction, are as adaptable as monocellulars. To quote Sigil Prep's legendary *****, Kailey, "They're beautiful, stuck-up roaches."
sapient 09-23-07, 09:50 PM	If there ever was an all-out war between elves and dwarves, the dwarven armies would pull up and lay seige to the major elven villages. Elf sharpshooters would make life difficult for the Dwarf soldiers in their trenches, picking off those unlucky or undisciplined enough to show themselves over the battlements. Dwarven crossbow snipers would not have much luck against the carefully camouflaged and superiorly agile and sthealthy elves. But while the siege lasts, conditions would slowly deteriorate in the Elf camps. Their bards would make winderful songs about their plight and their craftsmen would make tapestries depicting the Atrocities of War, that could make even a Dwarf cry. Then the dwarves would set fire to the wood, watch it burn to the ground and harvest the coal for use in their mines.
Thenameless 09-24-07, 12:57 AM	An all-out war is always an interesting concept. A few factors would determine the outcome. Terrain. If the elves come to fight the dwarves in the stone of the undermountain, they will lose. Likewise, if the heavily armoured dwarves come marching into the elven forests, they will lose. On one large, flat battlefield, I'm not sure. The dwarves can take advantage of fighting in tight formation with a very high AC. The elves could shoot their bows at will. Level. The dwarves are better fighters. It's their favoured class. So, they would win a war of low level characters. The elves, who surely have more high level arcane might, would win a war of high level characters.
Naderion 09-24-07, 05:49 AM	Elves at war with dwarves? That should be interesting: When dwarves are on the defense, they dig themself in. When Elves are on the defense, they retreat. Both races have a very strong tradition of always fighting on battlefields of their choice and under the conditions they set. Otherweise they evade battle. Both are amazing at defence but have very poor offensive tactics against the other sides defense. If elves try to run against dwarven fortifications, they would almost instantly get slaugtered. If dwarves try to fight elves in their home forests, the elves will have no problems staying at distance and completely anhilate them with magic and arrows. Dwarves against dwarves or elves against elves would be a different thing, but I think in a war of elves against dwarves, both sides would hide in their defence positions and nothing much more would happen except some skirmishes between patrols. If there ever was an all-out war between elves and dwarves, the dwarven armies would pull up and lay seige to the major elven villages. Elves usually don't dig themself in as dwarves do. They rather retreat and regroup than risking to become enclosed. Mobility is the most important factor in elven warefare because they know they have no means to breach a siege. And when they allready are in their own home forests, their reconaisance would likely spot any enemie movement long before the enemie forces themself now where they actually are.
The_Shaman 09-24-07, 06:21 AM	Mobility - and a s..tload of magic. Even as 3rd edition allowed dwarves to have arcane casters, elves are still (supposedly) quite a bit more familiar with arcane magic than dwarves are - heck, probably more than any other race in the PHB. In case of a serious war, I think it's likely to end inconclusively. Both sides have good warriors in their own right, and both are good at defense. Presuming a relative equality of numbers and resources, only chance can allow either side to win. Still, elves and dwarves are imo much better with a love-hate relationship than actually killing each other imo.
The_Piecone 09-24-07, 07:04 PM	Either or for me. :D I wouldn't personally play either, but if I had to choose for some reason, I would choose dwarf. A dwarf barbarian. that would be pretty awesome.
ToastedAmphibian 09-24-07, 07:22 PM	Dwarves and elves cant war with eachother. They both have to stay home and protect their belongings from humans. Whenever one turns its back for a second, it finds humans chopping down the forests or running around the mines grabbing up fancy hammers and armors. Why havnt kobolds and goblins allied together to conquer the world yet?
Yadot 09-24-07, 08:07 PM	Ah, an unbiased opinion, for once. I thank you for the contribution, Sir. I do my best.
Dracomorph 09-30-07, 04:59 AM	Elves and dwarves both have excellent, viable offensive tactics here, that people seem to be ignoring: Dwarves don't have to deal with elves in their natural setting, ever. Why? Because they would burn the forest down. That's right, they would. And they would win right there, except for proper elvish tactics: Guerilla warfare. That's how they do: since they can't attack the dwarves in their mines(because it's suicide), they instead get them every time they establish a surface outpost. Eventually, the dwarves either become hypercautious about leaving the tunnels, or they just stop doing it altogether. Eventually, though, and it would take hundreds, if not thousands of years, the dwarves win. Because the elves run out of guerillas before the dwarves run out of defensive fighters. Dwarves are just better, cooler, and more awesome in every way. Get used to it.
FrostWolf 09-30-07, 01:52 PM	There are two HUGE race choices in the game. Elves are graceful, buetiful, and there combat is based on skill. A dwarf is hardy, can fit more ale in themselves then three barrels full, and there combat is based on power. To me, these are the two most different races in the game. Now, i have made a prediction that a war will be made out of this subject- whitch one: elves, or dwarves. :cool: BAH! Elves are a bunch of tree hugging, stump thumping, leaf kissing, harp playing, pretty boys. Ain't nothing "beutiful" about something so scrawny it could hide in the shadow of a match stick. And you know why there are so many HALF-ELVES running around? Their women want REAL men, not some lilly livered dandylion picking, swerd shinging dandy. Now dwarves are a bit better, or would be if their women didn't have beards as big as the men folk. Honestly, they exist solely to be the opposite of elves. And what dose an axe have to do with living in the dirt? Ya can't mine with it, ya can't carve with it, and ya don't have any room to use it in a tiny mine shaft. And those beards, what could them possably have living in there? No, my choice stands with the poor, down trodden half Orc. Hard working, simple folk. Willing to do what it takes, despite awful stats, to protect home and family. Braving the scourge of adventurers that mistake them for full Ocs in an attempt to meek out an honest living in these troubled times. Rugged and strong, (and good looking too!) they are willing to tame wild frontiers, where lesser folk fear to tread.
AtomicKitKat 10-14-07, 02:30 PM	I'd just like to point out that midgetsHalflings are actually no more accurate than an Elf would be, if size were equal. It's just that everything else is a bigger target relative to them. It's like having your opponent's torso turned into the broad side of the proverbial barn.:P
sir_argenon 10-14-07, 09:00 PM	its funny.. a majority of the "flavor" text in the dnd books tend to lean toward the elves. but the actual RULES lean very very heavily in favor of the dwarves. i would actually argue that wotc are dwarf fanboys in reality. look at dwarven defender for example. this is a CORE prc that is only for dwarves. and damned powerful too. then you have more core dwarf love with their urgosh and waraxes... exotic weapons that the dwarf gets proficinecy in for FREE! no exotic proficiencies or exclusive prc's for the elves in core. dwarves get a laundry list of racial bonuses to dodge, skills, poison, ALL SPELLS and SPELL-LIKES, stability, bonuses to hit, stonecunning, and freakin darkvision... while elves get immunity to sleep and some other crap. dwarves get +2 CON for a -2 to nearly everyone's throwaway stat CHA... and elves get +2 to DEX for a nearly crippling -2 CON. i dont want to even get into the disparity of good prc's for elf in the RotW in comparison to the dwarf in RoS.. i mean, with the runecaster, the dwarf becomes a BETTER wizard than an elf can be. in fact a dwarf can be a better ANYTHING than nearly any other core race in dnd. in comparison to the rest of the classes ALL of them pale in comparison to the mighty dwarf. it actually should be a +1 or even a +2 LA race when you factor in the unique benefits that that race can use.
Zousha_Omenohu 10-14-07, 09:26 PM	Dwarves. I think Dwarf women are beautiful, as opposed to Elves. Or should I say twigs? The only way I'd like elves more is if more of the women were like this (http://www.elfwood.com/art/c/y/cybern/myrtelle_de_cleyra.jpg.html). Or this (http://www.elfwood.com/art/n/a/natashad/sema_7.jpg.html).
sd-einsatzgruppen 10-14-07, 10:30 PM	Dwarves. I think Dwarf women are beautiful, as opposed to Elves. Or should I say twigs? The only way I'd like elves more is if more of the women were like this (http://www.elfwood.com/art/c/y/cybern/myrtelle_de_cleyra.jpg.html). Or this (http://www.elfwood.com/art/n/a/natashad/sema_7.jpg.html). Quoted for truth as they say! I'm not a huge fan of scrawny women either.
Zousha_Omenohu 10-15-07, 09:10 PM	Hn. And here I thought I was the only one.
snakeman830 10-15-07, 09:43 PM	Dwarf, definitly. It's not that I like them all that much (in fact, I've never played one). It's just that I hate elves. Much like this guy (I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=864104) My hatred of elves is compounded by the fact one guy in my group REFUSES to play anything but an elf (or half-elf).
Aeralorn 10-15-07, 10:02 PM	I like both races pretty equally. They both have their ups and downs Ex. dwarves do get more stat bonuses but elves are so much more fun to play with. Elves are way more versatile and they have so many more sub races which I believe is a good thing because it gives you more options. You dont have to stick to a few sub races you can choose between many different sub races and choose which mod. you want to get so you dont have to be picky. Dwarves are awesome though And they are very tactical minded and strategic. They do work well with others and they have amazing abilities but all in all I like elves more but only by a very slight margin.:cool:
riftdragon 10-16-07, 09:15 PM	Personally i prefer dwaves mainly because i don't like my fighter to be put to 15 ft speed when running around in his admantine full plate(i like admantine). Also the dwarves get many more combat options in races of stone.
The Ubbergeek 10-17-07, 01:25 AM	I prefer elves in this case because basicaly, dwarves are miget conservatives. Casteists, conformists, uniformity-driven, communotarists, etc... And at worst, proto-fascists. At least, the elven mindset respect the individual and one's potential difference (to a point). They are also much more pro-intelectualism and artistic. We have enough of this in the real world, please.
tyrecian 10-17-07, 03:02 AM	hmm interesting points in this discussion. I will throw in my 2cents. I play with a couple of guys, and one is always a dwarf. Usually when i play, i play an elf (or human) so that there is some versatility (another player plays the shorties). I like having both of them in a party, expands roleplaying potential. Dwarves make excellent tanks. The con bonus is impressive, and dark vision makes them excellent frontliners in even the underdark. Elves make great casters (arcane) with the int bonus that the gray get. That being said, i think elves also have nice archers, and wild elves can make good barbs and rangers. In an all out war between the two, i would use the (non-core) template of war-priest for dwarven divine casters, and probably use the druid template for elven casters (in a large battlefield situation) because the actual elven clerics would be more bourgeoisie. I would use rangers instead of fighters for the elves, and dwarven defender prestige for the dwarven fighters. There would be bolsterred numbers from the elves in terms of companions, summons and just plain trained animals (such as griffon riders and such). Meanwhile the dwarves would tend to use more machinery that could be manufactured (catapults, ballistae, etc.). Still, all in all, the presence of just a few high level casters, if not dealt with in duels (mage duels and cleric duels) would wreack havoc on an army, just a few. So all out war would only happen after a long and terrible series of assassinations took place in each encampment (either through assassins, or otherwordly contracts, or duels) and then the armies might clash. In this grand clash i envision elves and animals chaotically attacking very formed and steady dwarven ranks, crashing into them like water along a cliff. The dwarves would rely upon their traps and armor, and love of war to slowly advance as very formed lines. There would be grievous loss of life on both sides, but the greater loss would be dwarven in terms of the actual races, however in terms of casualties the elves would leave a HUGE number of animals on the field. Wanting air superiority to be in their advantage, and usage, the elves would draw the dwarves away from the forest that is their home (cause it could be burned, as has been mentioned, and women and children would die in that great forest fire) as well as away from the mountains where the dwarves would not want to fight for fear of elves collapsing the mines and burrowed homes (through both engineering and magic). They would meet most often in plains and rolling hillside country between the mountains and the forest. The elves would probably (being that that they have greater advantage in nature) lure the dwarves to a river and the battle would take place there, using the river as a retreat point, which the dwarven army would be hard pressed to cross as quickly as the elves could. The sheer loss of life for the elves and treasure for the dwarves would mean that such a war would be short lived. Probably just a few grand battles, and then retreat for winter and convalescing. It is an interesting conundrum... Both sides would fight with intensity, and both sides are known for their abilities. In the end, the dwarves would win, as they are far more used ot war typically (sharing dominion with orc and goblin) then the elves, who bend their will to trickery and shadows within the forest to dissuade their enemies. Eventually the elves would flee (to the lands in the west, across the ocean? anyone?) to them the brutality of war would weigh far more heavy than on the dwarven shoulders. The dwarves would drink and recount heroic tales of their dead, while the elves would lament each life lost, animal and elf. The difference in the two philosophies would be as different as that of the Celts and the Vikings. Eventually the dwarves would simply overrun them through sheer staying power, and pride, and culture. Dwarves are tougher, hardier, more resilient, all necessary for war. Of course, that is assuming that the elves don't use trickery and charisma to convince the dwarves through ambassadors to end the war and settle differences in the field of battle that is the throne-room, a place wherein elves excel and dwarves are typically outmaneuvered. So if it came to a campaign that was all or nothing (no retreat) i would expect the losses to be grievous for both sides, but diplomacy to win in the end. When all is said and done, neither opponent has the will to completely crush the other. Elves are too compassionate, living long enough to enjoy the beauty of life and its riches, seeing the dreadfully dear cycle of death all too often to want to end something completely that they see as a perfect circle. Meanwhile the dwarves know tales of clans who were destroyed completely by orc and goblin, and would likewise understand the wisdom of allowing the elves to live on in some for or another. Dwarves might be gruff and blustery, but ask any woman, they are quick to tear to a good bard's tragic tale of heroic dwarven last stands, fights to the last dwarf, overrun by thousands of enemies on all sides, while 15 stood, fought and died, for all dwarves. The march to war would shatter the world, it would be horrific, and the human armies in neighboring nations would draw up their own forces in fear that it might spill out into their territories, loath to enter the battle themselves for fear of spreading the war into an entire continent, and not wanting to lose either of the master crafting races as a trade partner. Gnomes and halflings would be horrified by the horrific destruction and would flee the scene with wisdom speeding them. Deep beneath the surface as the Drow and Duergar fought relentlessly against each other, even the illythids would be wary of getting into that fight, although they would bolster their slaves considerably as wayward patrols wonderred into secret halls never to be seen again. The great cities of the deep would be destroyed as they closed passages large enough to travel armies through, and eventually the great chambers of the cities would be emptied by civilians retreating to others far away, and mystic sinkholes vast and deep would appear on the surface, of whose legacy only sages and conjurors could tell. Let us hope that this battle never rages, for its devestation would have far reaching consequences, not only in terms of great savagery, but also economic devastation. Also such a militant clash between such great and noble powers would only enhance the surviving nations' military aspect, as each would now have fought such a skilled and different foe. Surely that cannot be a good thing, eh? :( Humans would do well to avoid such a disastrous failing of diplomacy at all costs.
KIDS 10-17-07, 08:17 AM	When you make a character, you make a personality and some quirks. Dwarf is widely regarded as "skip your homework" race in that regard. Not that one can't roleplay fun and well with them, they're just all described as being the same old cliche. To make it worse, instead of players adding some life to them, they actually hold that "generic" principle as a boon to dwarves. Such a shame... I much prefer elves (without subraces or not, no one cares) and see a great lot of RP potential in them, but I also acknowledge that people playing them often turn into either arrogant bastards (without rules to support them) or "pointy eared humans", without any regards to the almost endless lifespan, culture, legends, background etc.... All in all it's a problem of players, not races, and while elves might benefit from some themathically better abilities (like JPM's to make any knowledge check with a +2 bonus) to support their culture, I still think the vast hate towards them is unfounded.
The_Wyld 12-21-07, 06:09 AM	There are races you love, and there are races you love to turn into compost. Elves are the latter for me.
gullas 12-21-07, 08:04 AM	look at dwarven defender for example. this is a CORE prc that is only for dwarves. and damned powerful too. then you have more core dwarf love with their urgosh and waraxes... exotic weapons that the dwarf gets proficinecy in for FREE! AHEMM , actually they only get those weapon as martial prof. weapons:teach: I myself would always choose an dwarf over elf :P
Silverthumb 12-21-07, 12:32 PM	AHEMM , actually they only get those weapon as martial prof. weapons:teach: Yes, but Dwarves treat them as Martial Weapons. I'll always hold Dwarves as my #1 favorite race, mainly because when I play, I like to optimize my defenses, and Dwarves are simply astounding for that. Steadfast Determination is probably the single greatest feat in a Dwarf's arsenal, adding your likely-to-be very high Con mod in place of your Wis mod for Will saves is going to be big for just about anyone but a Dwarf Cleric, Druid, and some Monks. Dwarven Defender plays to their strengths in addition to aiding in their big weakness, mobility. If you don't move, you can get a great bonus to AC & HP, and since you're unlikely to be the Spring Attacking Scout anyhow(not saying you can't, granted), you're better off in one place anyhow. If you can convince your opponent to fight you one-on-one, they're boned. Elves, I like them a bit, they're just not suited for my playing style. Losing out on HP is a big no-no in my book because, in the end, if you don't have HP, you're dead.
lord_of_elves 12-21-07, 11:33 PM	I Now on to dragoncat's post you say that elves aren't magical beings, if that is the case please tell me why the get no penalties for subclassing in wizard. yes and why they get bonuses agenst enchaments. and can magically dectect secret doors. Elfs rule. there is no contest. sure dwarfs have great strength. like some one elses said elfs can just pick them of from the trees. they get bonuses to spot and listen so they would know the nosy dwarf are comming. plus their clothing increases there stealthiness ( boots of elvenkind ect)and elfs could keep the fight going longer becuase they only need 4 hrs of meditation not 8 hrs of sleep. also to prove some of your points wrong. First to say they have no skills in range attacks except dex is contradicting yourself. becuase dex is what range is based off of. next to say there liars because they love nature but they have no bonues towards that. its not all about bonuses. its just elven culture. i mean check out thier gods about half of them are nature doman. back to the elves not being magical. who is the head god of they elves? Correllon the creator of elves and God of magic. Elves are the bomb and ill just end it at that.:D
Hanzo187 12-21-07, 11:50 PM	I prefer Elves. I like dex-based classes, but more importantly, I hate wasting my time shaving. However, I'm more like a Dwarf than an Elf. Unlike Elves, I can actually hold my liquor.
Awesome_Dude 12-21-07, 11:53 PM	yes and why they get bonuses agenst enchaments. and can magically dectect secret doors. Elfs rule. there is no contest. sure dwarfs have great strength. like some one elses said elfs can just pick them of from the trees. they get bonuses to spot and listen so they would know the nosy dwarf are comming. plus their clothing increases there stealthiness ( boots of elvenkind ect)and elfs could keep the fight going longer becuase they only need 4 hrs of meditation not 8 hrs of sleep. also to prove some of your points wrong. First to say they have no skills in range attacks except dex is contradicting yourself. becuase dex is what range is based off of. next to say there liars because they love nature but they have no bonues towards that. its not all about bonuses. its just elven culture. i mean check out thier gods about half of them are nature doman. back to the elves not being magical. who is the head god of they elves? Correllon the creator of elves and God of magic. Elves are the bomb and ill just end it at that.:D I'll just post this again: http://www.insidesocal.com/outinhollywood/.carson.jpg
tenguroEd 12-21-07, 11:53 PM	like everybody is saying Dwarves hands down. Elves are to much of tree hugging hippies(sorry if I offended anybody) for me to use, although my first D&D character was a druid elf, which supported the whole tree hugging hippie thing. Dwarves make more interesting characters, imo, do to the fact your backstory for a dwarf can be a fruitful one.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 12-21-07, 11:57 PM	Dwarves, 'cause nobody outside the mountains DOES know a damn thing about dwarves! Did you know that it's costumary for dwarves to greet humanoid womens by grabbing their breasts? Me neither. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. Once you go dwarf... Well, you pretty much stay dwarf.
drunkman 12-22-07, 01:02 AM	Man, I too hate the arrogent elves, in Eragon they engrandized those "treehuggers" way too much. Drarves are more realistic, like us, they get drunk, they can't agree with anybody on anything (just like in well...politics), they just have this mood swing between happy and drunk, and having this stern grunt, and they go through hardships. Elves are these oh perfect oody goody two-shoes. Nevertheless, I think the power in both races are about the same. Everybody talks about the elf not having as great magic capabilities as say, a gnome, and doesn't have the stealth of a halfling, but the Dwarf doesn't have magic of a gnome either (though gnomes are cousins of the dwarf, they're too far away from the Dwarf to call them dwarves for this discussion purpose), and it sure doesn't have the combat ability of an Orc (+4Str? Not a chance). The dwarf is in the middle between a good spellcaster and fighter as well as the elf. The dwarf's abilities are good: first of all, the +4 dodge bonus against giants come in handy plus some abilities that make it hardy in combat. But let's not underestimate the elf. The elf, personally, is the ideal candidate for a ranger who's basically a sniper that has can be sneaky too, like a rogue. It has a +2dex first of all, and the -2con doesn't matter because the sniper isn't engaged in combat a lot. That ability that entitles him/her a search check to notice a concealed door within 5ft is not to be underestimated, neither should be the immunity to sleep which means him/her is on the job day and night and can ambush a sleeping opponent.
TeenageHeat 12-22-07, 02:08 PM	guys, everything should be made as simple as possible but not simpler. elves win. you guys are forgetting, the elf favored class is Wizard, the Dwarf's is Fighter. WIZARDS > FIGHTER an army of elf wizards on one side of a battlefield, an army of Dwarf Fighters on another. THE WIZARDS WIN. they wouldn't even fight fair and that's why they would win. and someone of course is going to jump in say. "hey, but not all of them would be Fighters, blah blah blah Cleric blah Dwarven Wizard." WRONG! Dwarves are lawful, predictable and follow tradition, taking up their waraxe and shield as their forefathers before them. they also see nothing wrong with dying in battle and they wouldn't beseech their dwarven pride by sinking so low as to using the cheesy methods the elves would which i actually must respect them greatly for. a Dwarf is definitely more reliable and a great moral presence but he lack the charisma to influence this, therefore on an epic team, the Dwarf is completely overlooked by everyone else. Wizards, have scrying, Gate, Wish, Fireball, all sorts of nasties. just 5 epic wizards could take a Dwarven Stronghold. why? because the elves wouldn't give them a chance to retaliate. Dwarves are the Samurais of D&D, Elves are the ninjas. take your pick but remember, elves think outside of the box.
Gorbold 12-22-07, 02:41 PM	Elves just come off as metrosexual to me. And if people like playing feminine, androgynous characters, great. But I don't get it. Dwarves are masculine, stoic, pragmatic, tough, and easily just as (if not more so) "skilled" as elves are. They're disciplined and hard-working, skilled tradesmen, blacksmiths, masons, etc., and know more than every Home Depot employee and Bob Villa combined. They're also very skilled warriors and battle tacticians. They get racial attack and defense bonuses against chosen enemies from their constant drilling and practice. I'd have to go with dwarves.
drunkman 12-22-07, 03:57 PM	guys, everything should be made as simple as possible but not simpler. There's simple, and then there's naive, which I believe you are being. you guys are forgetting, the elf favored class is Wizard, the Dwarf's is Fighter. WIZARDS > FIGHTER an army of elf wizards on one side of a battlefield, an army of Dwarf Fighters on another. Just bacause their favoured class is that, doesn't mean that all elves are wizards and dwarves are fighters, that just means that they don't take multi-classing penalties when multiclassing to something else. Actually, I think Dwarves would make just as good wizards as elves (if not better). WIZARDS > FIGHTER Explain. THE WIZARDS WIN. they wouldn't even fight fair and that's why they would win. and someone of course is going to jump in say. "hey, but not all of them would be Fighters, blah blah blah Cleric blah Dwarven Wizard." WRONG! Dwarves are lawful, predictable and follow tradition, taking up their waraxe and shield as their forefathers before them. Well, a Dwarves lawfulness would make him a great wizard. The Player's Handbook says, "overall, wizards show a slight tendancy toward law over over chaos because the study of magic rewards those who are disciplined", so plenty of lawfuls become wizards. And that is true Dwarves follow tradition and do "as their forefathers before them", which is exactly why Dwarves would become wizards and spellcasters. Not all Dwarven forefathers did take "up their waraxe and shield". I'd suggest taking a copy of Races of Stone and learn a thing or two about Runes. Wizards, have scrying, Gate, Wish, Fireball, all sorts of nasties. just 5 epic wizards could take a Dwarven Stronghold. why? because the elves wouldn't give them a chance to retaliate. Just like 5 epic Dwarven wizards can beat a stronghold of elves and those Dwarves wouldn't give them any retaliation either. Remember, Dwarves are principled people, and don't show mercy to their foes. a Dwarf is definitely more reliable and a great moral presence but he lack the charisma to influence this, therefore on an epic team, the Dwarf is completely overlooked by everyone else. From just a -2 Charisma score? Come on, get real, a -2 charisma skill is only slightly less than that of an elf, I'd doubt it would make much of a difference in an epic campaign.
TeenageHeat 12-22-07, 05:29 PM	dwarves frown upon magic, i understand the whole runes thing but the idea of dwarven wizards and elven wizards just going at it is ridiculous, simply because it would never happen. it doesn't even make sense to have a dwarf wizard. if you're a dwarf wizard, you're just a munchkin. cleric i would understand but a dwarf wizard is probably the stupidest idea i've ever heard.
Wharin 12-22-07, 07:30 PM	dwarves frown upon magic, i understand the whole runes thing but the idea of dwarven wizards and elven wizards just going at it is ridiculous, simply because it would never happen. it doesn't even make sense to have a dwarf wizard. if you're a dwarf wizard, you're just a munchkin. cleric i would understand but a dwarf wizard is probably the stupidest idea i've ever heard. Given your diction and sentence parcing, I highly doubt the concept of dwarven wizards is the stupidest idea you've ever heard. Its not even that stupid. If anything its unorthodox given conventional fantasy, but not unheard of. It's simply about setting. In Tolkien, yes, dwarven wizards are all but unheard of; but so are human wizards, and elven magic wizards are incredibly rare as well. But hell, even in Magic: The Gathering, where Dwarves are little better then rabid wolves, there are still a number of Dwarf Wizards. In your normal D&D setting, provided the DM allows it/is not an old grognard, I see nothing wrong with a Dwarven Wizard. I would imagine that a Dwarven Wizard would look about as different from an Elven Wizard as an Elven Wizard does to an Elven Archer, but given the proclivity to Rune Magic (more fluff than anything*) I hardly see the reason the venom in your post, refering to the idea as the ultimate example of that which is stupid and munchkiny**. *Though if you take the Rune Caster PrC, Rune Magic is indeed quite potent for any Gish type build. **Which is just about the stupidest arguement I ever heard of. A munchkin is someone who bends and breaks the rules to gain an unfair advantage in the game to create the most powerful character. While a potent Race/Class combo, there is nothing that gives them unfair power.
sin shai, nagai jedi 12-22-07, 08:00 PM	DDDWWAAARRRVVVEEESSS!!! to hell with elves why? 1.)because unlike elves, dwarves are awesome. 2.) dwarves rule ass 3.)they have beards, and axes, and BEARDS, ....and they invented booze. 4.) elves are ruled by in immortal council of elven witch's who drink the blood of dwarven children in villinous orgys of elven hate mongering. i know the link was posted before, but i'm posting it again just because i feel like these people should be known by all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI&feature=related
Awesome_Dude 12-22-07, 10:42 PM	elves win. http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/11/01/carson_gallery__365x400.jpg WIZARDS > FIGHTER Sure do. Says nothing about the races, though. an army of elf wizards on one side of a battlefield, an army of Dwarf Fighters on another. Hahahahahahahaha. No. Dwarves are the Samurais of D&D, Elves are the ninjas. http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff226/urgagurga/carsonkressleyninja.jpg take your pick but remember, elves think outside of the box. Not only that. The Special K box! http://media.fashion18.com/images/CARSONimage_t_w220_h260.jpg
archerpwr 12-22-07, 10:55 PM	Dwarf>>>Elf. Con bonus>Dex bonus Cha Penalty> Con Penalty +2 racial bonus to the only saves that matter>well, all the racial traits. This only applies to PHB elves. Grey/Fire elves with the wizard sub level are tolerable.
drunkman 12-22-07, 11:16 PM	dwarves frown upon magic No they don't. Again Runes=arcane magic. i understand the whole runes thing but the idea of dwarven wizards and elven wizards just going at it is ridiculous, simply because it would never happen. RUNES=ARCANE MAGIC, there's got to be Dwarven wizards somewhere, what, do you think elves did all the runes? In Lord of The Rings and all those other fantasies, Dwarven wizards were unheard of. But this is more complex than a fairy tail, it's D&D, where statistics, not fictional books, decide how good a race is at what class. True, dwarve's favoured class aint a wizard, but at least how I would play a wizard, multiclassing isn't a good option, it delays you from getting the high level spells (maybe a prestige class or two, but that's different). The only time I would multi-class, is a level or two of fighter to get some extra feats you really really need for your character progression, but ah, dwarves CAN multi-class into fighters. Other than multi-classing, I don't think elves have much to offer for being natural spellcasters, I know Dwarves don't too. Now let's take a look at ability scores. Looking at the elf, +2Dex gives the elf AC protection, but wait, -2Con cuts the already low hit point supply for a wizard, which is counter productive and is a hindrance the same amount the Dex is a virtue. Looking at the Dwarf, the +2Con bonus gives more blood and hardiness that the d4 HD wizard lacks, -2Cha is negative, but Charisma is an ability that just isn't so vital for a wizard, arguably does less damage than the elf's -2Con. So I'd say tha the Dwarf wizard would be just as good as an elf wizard maybe even slightly better because of the constitution thing. cleric i would understand Spoke against your own words. You said, "dwarves frown upon magic". Clerics are magic users, in one sense or another.
The Crimson Dawn 12-22-07, 11:41 PM	I prefer Elves. I like dex-based classes, but more importantly, I hate wasting my time shaving. However, I'm more like a Dwarf than an Elf. Unlike Elves, I can actually hold my liquor. Ha Ha now I know that you are a not so secret elf lover in disguise! Dwarves do not shave!:P ahem sorry that seemed funnier when I first said it... Anyway I say dwarves for many previous reasons plus 1)Gimli is funny> Legolas is a pretty boy 2)By the end didnt Gimli kill more orcs...I think he did... Toss me...just dont tell the elf
Master_Vega 12-23-07, 01:49 AM	Yadot -- Nice work turning the Marine joke into a Dwarf joke. :P You've inspired me to one day run a recon marine style dwarven game... that'd be freakin' awesome. :P My decision to dislike elves comes from their flavor... and several bad tastes in my mouth from LoTR (like the series, hate the elves' condescension) and Eragon (same). "Man has fallen" "Man is weak", well as a human myself I kinda resent that... and the condescending view it seems all of the elves in every campaign I've played in have. Half-elves are humble and know how the world works (poor guys got shafted statwise, though). Elves are just... "I'm better than you 'cause I live longer and hug trees, so nyeh!" My characters typically kindly ignore this attitude and prove them incorrect in their haughtiness by showing them up in many tasks. I do enjoy fighting proud elven wizards, especially with my human psion who specializes in making people with low reflexes ride the lighting (hooray for horrendous massive damage saves due to houserulling!) :D Dwarves don't really have that "I'm superior" air about them, which makes them fun to interact with and fight alongside. I don't like playing lawful characters in the straight-forward lawful sense (as in abiding the laws of the land), which dwarves seem to lean toward, so I don't play dwarves myself. Put simply, I like dwarves better than elves from a flavor standpoint... but I prefer playing humans/half-dragons. :P
Phelix_the_Warrior 12-23-07, 02:45 AM	Im a dwarf man I cannot lie, though Im a dwarf since way back when I played warhammer as the dwarves, so I held a grudge against elves because of that. Also note, I am alright with any elf so long as they are not trying to be Legolas......
Novem 12-23-07, 10:34 AM	I prefer Dwarves to Elves because I see them differently. Elves are haughty and aloof (and so are their fanboys), but I have always also imagined them as Conservatives and racists. The fact that they are environmentalists is their only saving grace, *but wait!* in LoTR, at least, Gimli proves that Dwarves, too, are in touch with nature. I always take that to heart. Dwarves are not aloof. They know and respect humans as equals, as respect Elves the same (though the Elves do not return this respect to either race). Dwarves, with their lawful bent, are more likely to be scientists and mathematicians, and would make excellent wizards. Also, they are not so lawful or rigid as oft claimed (TeenageHeat's argument that Dwarves refuse to differ from tradition at all fails because a society so rigid would collapse)- and this is proved by their repeatedly mentioned love of crafting and creating- invention is an intuitive task. Also, their love of law means that they will , by natural evolution or by intention, arrive at a legal system that is fair and judges individuals as individuals. Elves, with their "Always CG" alignment, are really the icon of lack of internal consistency and the failure of the alignment system. They are described as being the most fair and balanced race, but they "always" hold an alignment that is by nature impulsive, rash, ruled by emotion and generally irrational. And the idea that a race can be "always good" or "always evil" unless it is angelic, demonic, or diabolic in origin is simply absurd. Dwarves have better stats. Hate to say it, but it's true. The Cha penalty does not apply against other Dwarves, and is generally useless everywhere- though Dwarves are blunt, they will still earn the respect of their peers in the human world because of their deeds and because they are not so arrogant as Elves. Elves have better weapon proficiencies. ALL Elves get the equivalent of two Martial Weapon Proficiency in some of the best Martial weapons for free. A Dwarf must be proficient in Martial weapons to enjoy weapon familiarity, in short, Dwarves get a discount where Elves get stuff for free. To me, this suggests that the designers were again biased in favor of elves- another reason I don't like them. Dwarves can make ACTUAL characters. I have never seen an Elf character that wasn't Legolas, Drizz't, or a Wizard. I can easily imagine a Dwarf being any of those, or just about anything else. Keep in mind that these are my interpretations of the races. See my sig to find out what happens in a war.
kelvinaw273 12-23-07, 01:33 PM	Elves would win the war, if it was fought on their terms. Why? Because they can outmaneuver the dwarves (speed) and strike at a distance (longbow). Being a badass armoured tank is only any use if you can close with the enemy, if you are at range ... well there is a reason why the English longbowmen were the most feared medieval troops in Europe, and in their own terrain elves will make perfect guerrilla fighters. Of course, Dwarves win on their own terrain too! because underground the dwarves' darkvision and the enclosed spaces render the greater maneuverability of the elves useless, and their ranged weapons less effective. At the end of the day, propagandists from both sides will make their points, but the two races are actually well balanced.
Hanzo187 12-23-07, 02:05 PM	Elves are haughty and aloof (and so are their fanboys), but I have always also imagined them as Conservatives and racists Libs are just as racist, but tree-loving people (Elves) tend to be characterized as hippies, and I think we know the political leanings of hippies. Dwarves have strong family ties, which is a conservative trait. Ha Ha now I know that you are a not so secret elf lover in disguise! Yes, I am an elf lover. When it comes to my personality, though, I'm more like a Dwarf than an Elf. Don't forget the Elf-babes, too. I like Elf-babes. :love: Elf-babe over Dwarf-babe (assuming there actually ARE Dwarf-babes?). Dwarves do not shave! The women do. Don't be fooled, that dwarf woman in the PHB shaved before she had her picture taken. Remember what Tordek said: "Imagine me, with a thicker beard, 50 more pounds, and a perm." Evidence of the Dwarf woman conspiracy. 1)Gimli is funny> Legolas is a pretty boy 2)By the end didnt Gimli kill more orcs...I think he did... 1) "Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What're we waiting for?" From the The Return of the King 2) Yes. Gimli had 42, Legolas had 41.
Mulkr 12-23-07, 04:34 PM	To hell with dwarves, to the Abyss and Hell with elves, and lets just look at the facts: The kobold armies love both environments, outnumber dwarves AND elves 6 to one, are harder to hit, and ultimately will go to any means to eradicate both. If i cant play a kobold, i go with goblin. Then i kinda just continue down the chain of small monstrous humanoids. The i go to the large ones. then medium. the finally, halflings, then humans, followed by half-orcs, gnomes, then dwarves, THEN, AND ONLY THEN, elves. And EVEN then, i might just choose to play a twig. 'bout the same thing really. The one thing dwarves have over elves in my opinion, they wont and for the most part cant lie to you, and they can hardly ever tell if your lying to them. A -2 CHA= -2 to bluff and sense motive. So they got that. And kobolds hold the front for most awesome race ever. I hate elves. Kobolds hate elves. Dwarves hate elves. Orcs hate elves. Many different types of monsters hate elves. Bulettes are an extreme example... at least i think its bulettes. Because bulettes... i think... wont eat elves, but will eat dwarves, humans, dirt, trees, rocks, contact poison, radioactive waste. But not elves. and they're intelligence is that low? NO. Just No.
Master_Vega 12-23-07, 05:39 PM	Sense Motive is Wisdom based, friend. Oh, and -2 Cha = -1 to bluff checks. :P
Bleeding_Eyes 12-23-07, 06:39 PM	I prefer Elves (though drow of course kick any high elf's ass) mostly because I feel like they have much more diversity in what you can do with them (could be the chaotic alignment thing) Dwarfs are typicly (and I realize that lost of people play as other things) Fighters and barbarians, with the occasional monk, wheras elves (thanks to thier Dex bonus) can exel in almost any class (rogue, bard, wizard/sorceror, cleric, monk, paladin, druid, and those are just to name the core classes...) however, when it comes to giving someone a good bashing, you cant beat a dwarf
warforged51092 12-23-07, 08:07 PM	I like both based on stats and special abilities but dwarves have a much better stereotype. My friend, whenever he plays an elf, always acts as the the sharp-shooting arrogant ranger (lots of fun once my shifter character got to the elf village where my friend's elf came from. Elf ladies have the hots for hairy ,savage animal-men :D ) I've made a few awesome elf characters (Hate-filled elf warmage :mage: , Blood-drinking elf ranger :devil: , crazy elf fighter/ninja :evillaugh ). But whoah, why is the elf so perfect. Warforged own both though. WARFORGED RULE :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:
Novem 12-23-07, 09:41 PM	Libs are just as racist, but tree-loving people (Elves) tend to be characterized as hippies, and I think we know the political leanings of hippies. Dwarves have strong family ties, which is a conservative trait. I disagree- I have strong family ties, am very liberal, and I consider myself an environmentalist. I also want to second the "Kobolds for World Dominion" idea, because, when it comes to it, they really will be the ultimate winner. ...Unless the Goblins win first .....Which will never will, Because HUMANS are, as a species, the most effective race in D&D, even if not the best choice as PC's, because of their variety and flexibility as a race. Also, when compared to either Dwarves or Elves, Humans BREED LIKE HIPPIE RATS. YES, HIPPIE RATS. Or maybe cockroaches. But yes, besides Humans, Kobolds own.
Demonpunch 12-24-07, 11:31 AM	Dwarves will always win. I have the races of stone and races of the wild and a friend of mine who loves the elves also has there complete series from mongoose publishing. They have more fancy bows and some goofy swords but the dwarven complete gives you cannons and grenades. And power armor that does not explode. Lets see dinky arrows and flimsy swords to big booms heavy brutal weapons and power armor? I think the elves better run!
Mulkr 12-24-07, 12:10 PM	Sense Motive is Wisdom based, friend. Oh, and -2 Cha = -1 to bluff checks. :P Ok, thank you for correcting me. I didn't have the PHB right with me and had a temporary brain fart. ...Which will never will, because HUMANSare, as a species, one of the least effective races in dnd, though one of the best choices for PC's because of the bonus feat and extra skill points. Fixed. Also, don't know how to double quote so i just typed the above out.
Phelix_the_Warrior 12-24-07, 03:52 PM	Lets look at the core classes and which race does them better Barbarian: Dwarf! (who needs CHA?) Bard: Elf (they need CHA) Cleric: Dwarf... unless your really into turn undead..... Druid: Dwarf, with a decent CON score a dwarven druid can really own up something fierce in melee, put dwarven stone armor on top of that (since its stone druids can wear it!) and you have a stunted power of nature Fighter: Dwarf, with the possible exception of ranged fighters Monk: Dwarf, was close but since dwarves only lose CHA the elf cant help Paladin: Again, unless your really into turn undead & smite evil (which honestly sucks) then Dwarf wins out Ranger: Two weapon fighting=Dwarf Ranged=Elf Rogue: Elf (ill give this to you because a lot of rogue skills are dex & cha based) Sorcerer: Elf (dwarf CHA really hurts it in this class) Wizard: Dwarf, honestly I think more HP is more important to a Wizard than AC.... thats a 7 Dwarves/3 Elves ratio with 1 Tie If you disagree please explain
Silvanas84 12-24-07, 04:07 PM	I disagree- I have strong family ties, am very liberal, and I consider myself an environmentalist. I also want to second the "Kobolds for World Dominion" idea, because, when it comes to it, they really will be the ultimate winner. ...Unless the Goblins win first .....Which will never will, Because HUMANS are, as a species, the most effective race in D&D, even if not the best choice as PC's, because of their variety and flexibility as a race. Also, when compared to either Dwarves or Elves, Humans BREED LIKE HIPPIE RATS. YES, HIPPIE RATS. Or maybe cockroaches. But yes, besides Humans, Kobolds own. Yes, humans are the best, an extra skill point at every level is effectively a +2 Intelligence bonus with no balancing -2 to (insert scapegoat attribute here). Humans can do everything well & aren't as bogged down by cliche's.
CryoSilver 12-24-07, 04:27 PM	I vote for dwarves, especially in a war between elves and dwarves. Elves are terrible at being their favored class. A wizard with a Con penalty? Who thought THAT was a good idea? They have 1 fewer hp/level, and a -1 penalty on Fort saves because of that. None of their abilities help them be better wizards. Plus, I just plain hate elves. Dwarves, on the other hand, have a +2 bonus on all saves vs magic, which gives them a 10% better chance of resisting their stupid elven enemies main weapon. They are proficient (if fighters) with an exotic weapon by default, and on top of all of that, they're dwarves, not wimpy little non-greatsword-wielding elves.
the_narrator 12-24-07, 04:36 PM	I'll just leave in the ones I disagree with: Lets look at the core classes and which race does them better Cleric: Either. Neither class gets a bonus to the primary stat of the Cleric (Wisdom), and the maximum 2 hp disparity per level for the Con scores doesn't cut it. If anything, Elves get this one because they don't have a penalty to a class ability (Turn Undead). Druid: Same as Cleric. Wild Shape replaces your Con score (unless they changed that in the new-ish Polymorph rules), and there is little reason for a Druid to wear armor, ESPECIALLY heavy armor. Monk: Elf. Bonus to Dex helps out with hitting things better (weapon finesse for your fists). Dwarven Charisma penalties hurt as well, if I remember correctly. Paladin: Elf. Turn Undead isn't terribly useful, but I for the life of me don't know why you think Smite is terrible. So Turn Undead, Smite, Divine Grace, and Lay on Hands are all in the Elf's favor and against the Dwarf's charisma penalty. Ranger: Elf. A small amount of extra HP does not make the Dwarf better at two-weapon fighting, and the bonus to Dex is a boon to the Lion's share of Ranger class skills as well as the ranged combat style. Rangers are a far better skill class than warrior class. thats a 7 Dwarves/3 Elves ratio with 1 Tie If you disagree please explain So that makes it 2 ties, 5 Elf, and 4 Dwarf. Mechanics beats flavor.
The_Shaman 12-24-07, 05:57 PM	I prefer Elves. I like dex-based classes, but more importantly, I hate wasting my time shaving. What do you mean? Dwarves don't waste any time shaving. Okay, at most, they spend some time grooming their hair, but it's not like elves don't do that...Those long hairs they like are a b...h to take care of. Seriously, it takes me less time to shave and take a shower than my sister takes to dry her hair.
Derren S. 12-24-07, 06:04 PM	Elves..... If the question is "Who to hit first with a Death Ray?".
faghter_hero 12-24-07, 09:01 PM	Elves are devious, waify, flower munching, mushroom powder snorting homosexuals who prance naked through trees and flee at the first sight of real combat. Dwarves are greedy but stupid little workaholic troglodytes with nothing resembling common sense, who eat dirt and rarely bathe. Why must I choose? In conclusion, Humans are the greatest race ever, all the others are the branches of the evolutionary tree that Darwin forgot to prune. GO HUMANS, THE MASTER RACE!
Arco Versipellis 12-24-07, 10:49 PM	1)Gimli is funny> Legolas is a pretty boy 2)By the end didnt Gimli kill more orcs...I think he did... Toss me...just dont tell the elf Gimli killed one more orc than Legolas in the books. I don't think the movie mentions it. However, number 1 is clearly a comment about the movie, and I contest that Gimli is stupid and Legols is war god incarnate. Play any Middle Earth game and see if it isn't true. Battle for Middle Earth, nohing levels like an elf archer. I'm sorry the Gimli is both ugly and lame, but that's a dwarf for you. If dwarves come to the suface to attack the elves, their drkvision is negated by te sun or moonlight. The elves start picking the elves off way in advance, and dwarves at to slow to escape,plus their heavy armor gives them armor check penalty, makig it hard for them t climb the trees in which the elves live. Who says running away isn't an option? Elves live forever; just wait for them to die the old fashioned way. Elves may be arrogant and enviromentally concious, but dwarves are not exactly humble as well as being greedy and rigid.
Avoraciopoctules 12-24-07, 11:47 PM	I favor dwarves over elves as my PCs by a significant margin. There are many reasons for this, but one that I don't think has yet been mentioned is that dwarves aren't slowed by armor. This means they can tumble in armor. I can have a dwarven thief-acrobat in spiked full plate. I can have a dwarven elocater in spiked full plate. I can have either PC use the tumble skill to perform for money in spiked full plate. This can be quite a fun way to earn pitifully small sums of money or provide a very noisy diversion. Dwarves can also be part of a dwarven clan. This generally means that the PC has easy access to a safe refuge, reasonably priced masterwork tools (including tools of war), and very detailed historical records. Dwarf clans are organized, allowing them and all their trading partners to provide many hooks for typical dungeon adventures. This makes things easier for the DM if he/she needs to whip up an adventure in a hurry. Finally, whenever I play an elf, I have to fight the temptation to give them a CON score of 5 with a d4 hit point class and then turn them into some kind of sentient undead (Preferably lich, so I more than quadruple my HP). The Libris Mortis and Savage Species rulebooks have made monstrous characters a ready option, and undeath is pretty easy to come by at middle levels.
ericSHINRA 12-25-07, 12:26 AM	Elves are devious, waify, flower munching, mushroom powder snorting homosexuals who prance naked through trees and flee at the first sight of real combat. Dwarves are greedy but stupid little workaholic troglodytes with nothing resembling common sense, who eat dirt and rarely bathe. Why must I choose? In conclusion, Humans are the greatest race ever, all the others are the branches of the evolutionary tree that Darwin forgot to prune. GO HUMANS, THE MASTER RACE! While that whole 'hippy' argument hardly applies to Elves my games. Dwarves are certainly fine warriors in their own right, but when provoked, Elves are like gods on the battlefield. Oh, and on the note of eating dirt... an evil Elvish schemer posing as 'Nutritionist' and 'Fitness Guru' convinced an entire human town that eating dirt was beneficial to their health in one of my games.
lord_of_elves 12-25-07, 04:42 PM	[QUOTE=drunkman;14644600]Man, I too hate the arrogent elves, in Eragon they engrandized those "treehuggers" way too much I'm a huge fan of elves as you can tell by my name and by my posts, but I even hated the elves in Eragon. They are very arrogent and rude. plus the lost the whole spirtual effect that i view D&D and LOTR elves have. They are overly scientfic, high nosed, overconfident losers. My view of elves are that yes they have great pride in there race,but when the world is in danger they answer the call to help the other races defeat evil. And even though it is true that dwarfs make great contrubutions with thier melee fighting prowless from time to time, they are more likly to just stay in there montain homes mining.
faghter_hero 12-25-07, 07:57 PM	While that whole 'hippy' argument hardly applies to Elves my games. Dwarves are certainly fine warriors in their own right, but when provoked, Elves are like gods on the battlefield. Oh, and on the note of eating dirt... an evil Elvish schemer posing as 'Nutritionist' and 'Fitness Guru' convinced an entire human town that eating dirt was beneficial to their health in one of my games. Well in my campaign, Elves make shoes in Santa's Workshop for 2 cents an hour and subsist entirely on beans and laziness.
Eragon_seer 12-25-07, 09:18 PM	yah I honestly dont want to decide. I love elves but I also love dwarves, and one of my favorite charector was a dwarf druid with a vine as an animal companion, I loved him. but straight from the PHB I would probably take the fluff of the dwarf I just hate the whole arragant beyond belief thing with elves. In my campaigns the elves are a lot like wild elves, they live in the forests in small tribal groups and gaurd the woods and the land from Human expansion. which of course means their hated by most of the other races, but dwarves, who are the elves only trading partners and allies. even that is only to a point as the elves are spiritual and fey like while the dwarfs are pragmatic Elves have: +2 str, +2 dex, -2 int, -2 cha weapon proficiency: longbow, and scimitar +2 racial bonus on Hide, Move silent, listen +1 on attack and damage vs. orcs and humans darkvision 60ft. La +0, but the campaign races are all high powered like this so it works out so the elves pick off their enemies from concealed sniping niches before the enemy even notices them. and if they do get into melee combat they use curved bladed weapons which examplify their moon god. and of course they have very few wizards or even sorcerers so they rely on their druids for magic.
Threefists 12-26-07, 06:18 PM	Khelgar Ironfist and Gimli. Bringing the Dwarf to a whole new generation of Gamers. I love some of Khelgar's opening lines, like: "Every tavern's a opportunity, I say. There's usually someone who can take a few punches to the gut and groin before they start weeping like a child." Magical. Just. *******. Magical. As to the comedy relief, notice that people who do nominally fit the socially defined perception of 'perfect' or 'hot' generally never make it into the lead roles. Height is one of these attributes that society values, although why I do not know, short people take up less room, eat less and need smaller cars, clothing and so forth and thus end up using less raw material than their larger counterparts. Anyone ever seen Danny Devito as a action hero? No, neither have I. Still, Dwarf FTW! Too much time playing WoW, I guess, and the invasion of naked Blood Elves dancing on our mailboxes and shouting "I <3 U Long Time 4 G0ldz!" was the final nail in that particular coffin....
turalisj 12-26-07, 10:17 PM	NEITHER! Go with the Dwelves! :P
drunkman 12-26-07, 11:03 PM	NEITHER! Go with the Dwelves! :P Very funny...
turalisj 12-26-07, 11:30 PM	Its the very reason elves should never drink... Of course, there is also the elven wine... damn elves..... spiking their drinks with enough magic to get even a dragon drunk! (personal experience!)
ericSHINRA 12-26-07, 11:36 PM	Elves are devious, waify, flower munching, mushroom powder snorting homosexuals who prance naked through trees and flee at the first sight of real combat. Well in my campaign, Elves make shoes in Santa's Workshop for 2 cents an hour and subsist entirely on beans and laziness. Oh, funny... That was sarcasm, by the way. Make up your mind why don't ya? NEITHER! Go with the Dwelves! :P I hope to high heaven their respective creators would never allow such offspring. >_<
turalisj 12-26-07, 11:53 PM	Well, in my game dwarves are tall and thin with long ears and increadibly long life spans. :P Also, dwarves only became short and irritable after Tolkein made them that way. Infact, most of the phb races are based off the Tolkein version of them.
Phelix_the_Warrior 12-27-07, 12:16 AM	Gimli killed one more orc than Legolas in the books. I don't think the movie mentions it. However, number 1 is clearly a comment about the movie, and I contest that Gimli is stupid and Legols is war god incarnate. Play any Middle Earth game and see if it isn't true. Battle for Middle Earth, nohing levels like an elf archer. I'm sorry the Gimli is both ugly and lame, but that's a dwarf for you. If dwarves come to the suface to attack the elves, their drkvision is negated by te sun or moonlight. The elves start picking the elves off way in advance, and dwarves at to slow to escape,plus their heavy armor gives them armor check penalty, makig it hard for them t climb the trees in which the elves live. Who says running away isn't an option? Elves live forever; just wait for them to die the old fashioned way. Elves may be arrogant and enviromentally concious, but dwarves are not exactly humble as well as being greedy and rigid. Alright, if you think that Legolas in the movies was cool, your opinion is void. Purely by the fact of how obnoxiously impervious he is, seriously, hes like Beowulf, a hero who is indestructible, which ruins the story. You take Movie-Legolas and pit him against ANYONE from middle earth and he will win because hes essentially been given the power of a GOD, he could take on Melkor solo! (or for those who havent read Silmarillion, that would be Saurons teacher, the God of Intelligence, whose responsible for the deaths of the first elf, the loss of the Silmarils, the creation of the Orcs, Balrogs, Dragons, and Trolls) second, dwarves dwell underground, whats to stop the dwarves from digging under the elves forests? destroying the roots and killing the trees from underground thus negating the whole dwarves attacking elves will fail plan, forcing the elves to attack the dwarves or die in their treetop homes. Another thing, darkvision DOES NOT MEAN BLINDED BY LIGHT! it simply means that at nightime they have almost perfect vision, which elves don't.... Darkvision>low light vision. The fact is dwarves are far more defensive and militaristic, meaning while elves will win in small skirmishes and battles more often than not, in the long run dwarves will be victorious. Another thing, if the dwarves are forced above ground, such as the elves live a long way away and it would be impractical to mine there, then the dwarves would simply camp within range of the elf forest and literally siege it. While the elves could bring in things like treants to combat this the dwarves would probably summon elementals & other underground dwellers to combat these. And they cant try night attacks due to darkvision, not to mention the whole dwarves most likely outnumber the elves (due to long lives elves most likely have less need to reproduce and thus have a smaller population) This is not even bringing into the fact that EVERY DWARF IS A WARRIOR 90% of their population are combatants, the other 10% being children third dwarves hold grudges, its like their thing..... you honestly don't think that a dwarf would simply keep carrying on the grudge by passing it to their children?, so the dwarves sit there brooding while the elves are constantly on the run, honestly the dwarves win that one dwarves may not be humble but their arrogance doesn't even register compared to the elves..... elves take it to a whole new level of arrogance...... Your move
Fenris_Lathiin 12-27-07, 01:37 AM	If dwarves come to the suface to attack the elves, their drkvision is negated by te sun or moonlight. The elves start picking the elves off way in advance, and dwarves at to slow to escape,plus their heavy armor gives them armor check penalty, makig it hard for them t climb the trees in which the elves live. Darkvision may be negated when there is light outside, but Dwarfs can still see fine without it, better, actually. You should note that with Darkvision, you can't see color or detail. Also, unlike Drow and Orcs, Dwarfs don't have a penalty when exposed to sunlight.
Eater_Of_Souls 12-27-07, 04:29 AM	I play both sides. :D
Silverthumb 12-27-07, 02:39 PM	WIZARDS > FIGHTER Two words: Level One. an army of elf wizards on one side of a battlefield, an army of Dwarf Fighters on another.elves think outside of the box. How much time/resources would it take to train an army of Wizards VS an Army of Fighters? Considering you can learn to wield almost any weapon, namely those that Dwarves favor, with easily-produced fakes, or even sticks/rocks, you're already running on higher efficiency than having to share spellbook-notes and material components. Plus, Dwarven weapons are also Dwarven tools. Chopping down wood, hammering nails, daily life becomes combat practice. In order to use magic for daily living, you'll need more than practice, you'll need several class levels. Plus, Dwarves are resistant to Magic and damage, while Elves aren't exactly resistant to hammers.
turalisj 12-27-07, 10:22 PM	...Eternal Blade. *grabs some popcorn and waits for the chaos to ensue*
AngryJake 12-28-07, 02:01 AM	I HATE elves, I HATE elves so intensely that it nigh unto impossible for most to even begin to understand the immense and overbearing loathing I have for elves. also Dwarves win hands down everytime regardless of terrain, dwarven battle plate combined with a steel tower shield, I'd like to see you get an arrow through that, and if we include allies, goliath barbarians/frenzied beserkers. the casualties would be like 5:1 favoring the dwarves.
turalisj 12-28-07, 02:31 AM	Rascist.
AngryJake 12-28-07, 02:55 AM	maybe just a little
Arco Versipellis 12-28-07, 03:53 AM	Alright, if you think that Legolas in the movies was cool, your opinion is void. Purely by the fact of how obnoxiously impervious he is, seriously, hes like Beowulf, a hero who is indestructible second, dwarves dwell underground, whats to stop the dwarves from digging under the elves forests? Another thing, darkvision DOES NOT MEAN BLINDED BY LIGHT! third dwarves hold grudges, its like their thing..... so the dwarves sit there brooding while the elves are constantly on the run, honestly the dwarves win that one dwarves may not be humble but their arrogance doesn't even register compared to the elves Your move I cut some things, it was kind of long ad so is mine. I won't worry with addressing how void my opinion is. I will point out that I do think Beowulf is cool, but that is based purely off the poem as I have never seen the movie. I also want to point out the I own and read the Silmarillion. I understand how darkvision works. Yes, dwarves can see better without it, but shadowy illumination limits their vision to that of a human. Elves can thus see twice as far as them in moonlight. They also have longbows and are faster. They don't make as much noise, so you can't track them by ear. I'll give you the roots things. That is a good one, but it a scenario. Instead of a massive engineering feat, the elves can unleash a great magic, flooding the caverns. We aren't talking races and stats, we are taking story. However, most of your points are based on your assumptions of the dwarves and elves. Consider the number of elves in Lord of the Rings to the number of dwarves. Which do you remember seeing more of? Also, you assume that a 100 year old elf is going to be a level 1 warrior. I honestly don't. I believe the elves are more like to have extremely powerful members of their race (Elrond, Glorfindel, Galadriel; any of whom could have easily taken Legolas). Any campaign can be tailored to either race winning, honestly. I also want to point out, since I know you have read the Silmarillion, that Tolkein's dwarves were not even created by the came god as the elves. They were created by a lesser deity who made them from clay, but the other god took pity on them and allowed them to survive. Elves are the chosen people. Tolkein's elves beat his dwarves by divine provinence. In my campaign, the elves live in scattered bands across a massive forest with a few stronghold throughout, all located in trees. They maintain hidden canopy passes along the paths. Also, if the dwrves attacked the trees, they are incuring the wrath of more than just elves. Fey Court, good and bad, would seek to drive out the dwarves, and this doesn't fully include creatures the elves could summon as allies. There are many real life examples of elite miitaries being defeated by guerilla warfare groups. Especially if your goal is to get an occupying force to leave, as seems more fitting for the elves. As I will admit, they would be doomed if they tried to invade the dwarves (in D&D). You didn't address greed and rigidness. So far we have those two plus too much pride versus aroganance and enviromentalism. ... Your move? Sersiouly? Oh yeah, dwarves have a temper, too.
AngryJake 12-28-07, 04:28 AM	Hack them, slash them, BURN them, last I checked wood is still flammable even in a high fantasy setting, as well as susceptible to axes, the dwarves stay well out of bowshot of those damnable elves launching loads of burning oil, also darkvision completely IGNORES lighting conditions they see 60ft regardless, also your damned elves can't even hit a dwarf(AC 24), and also this isn't freakin tolkien dwarves have their own gods(Moradin is a greater deity), and guerrilla tactics aren't going decimate a well disciplined nigh invincible force, and as for this "flood" whats to prevent it from draining into the underdark, or that tghe dwarves aren't prepared for such an attack(it did happen in one the dwarves oldest myths.)
Eragon_seer 12-28-07, 09:35 AM	I would like to stay nuetral in this, but I have to say that trying to burn down the forest would be a wasted effort. simply put it would be easy for the elves to stealthly put out the fires before they decimated to much of thier land, so Unless the dwarves can find a way to make the fire immune to being put out I just won't work well enough to end the war.
AngryJake 12-28-07, 12:26 PM	do you have any idea of what a fire storm is, it is win a fire becomes so intense tha it creates it's own localized weather system that continually fans the flames, they are completely out of control, and outside of some extremely powerful magic, totally unstoppable. all the dwarves would have to do is launch 10-15 barrels of burning oil and you've got a full-blow conflagration. I just don't see what the elves are going to do to stop it.
The_Shaman 12-28-07, 12:28 PM	I HATE elves, I HATE elves so intensely that it nigh unto impossible for most to even begin to understand the immense and overbearing loathing I have for elves. Well that's nice. I'm leaning towards dwarves myself and I still think you might want to speak to someone if a fictional race can draw that kind of reaction from you. also Dwarves win hands down everytime regardless of terrain, dwarven battle plate combined with a steel tower shield, I'd like to see you get an arrow through that, and if we include allies, goliath barbarians/frenzied beserkers. the casualties would be like 5:1 favoring the dwarves. If it gets to blows, perhaps. Yet can you guess what I'm thinking if I remind you that most elven subraces have wizard as a favourite class?
AngryJake 12-28-07, 12:41 PM	and your point being, we're talking mostly low level npc's, level five max, with the occasional higher level hero, probably 10 at the most, sure their favored class is fighter, but I'm sure there are some clerics of Tharmekhul out there sporting the fire and war domains.
Arco Versipellis 12-28-07, 02:52 PM	Hack them, slash them, BURN them, last I checked wood is still flammable even in a high fantasy setting, as well as susceptible to axes, the dwarves stay well out of bowshot of those damnable elves launching loads of burning oil, also darkvision completely IGNORES lighting conditions they see 60ft regardless, also your damned elves can't even hit a dwarf(AC 24), and also this isn't freakin tolkien dwarves have their own gods(Moradin is a greater deity), and guerrilla tactics aren't going decimate a well disciplined nigh invincible force, and as for this "flood" whats to prevent it from draining into the underdark, or that tghe dwarves aren't prepared for such an attack(it did happen in one the dwarves oldest myths.) do you have any idea of what a fire storm is, it is win a fire becomes so intense tha it creates it's own localized weather system that continually fans the flames, they are completely out of control, and outside of some extremely powerful magic, totally unstoppable. Says who? Why are these dwarves invincibile? I thought they were soldiers, not high level characters. Never heard of a fire storm. Ever heard of deep roots? It is when roots become so strong that they burrow down into the earth, often through the cities of the Underdark Did you catch the part about the magic flood? What if the elves are prepared for the dwarf invasion and use a psion with energy ray (sonic) to crush them under a cave in while they are coming to the surface to attack? I write adventurers, too; we can go back and forth with story ideas forever. I am not saying trees are immune. I am saying the attacking the forest would draw the attention of far nastier creatures. Like, oh no, we woke up the green dragon. You were right about darkvision for some reason I though light ruined it (Maybe 3.0?). Still only 60 feet though. Also, considering that moving a massive army takes a great deal of coordination, th dwarves can't march at night. Futhermore, they would bog down in a forest and loose their ability to communicate (banners where largely used for that). That is again historical warfare. How exactly are those dwarves hitting ACs of 24 at level 1? The best armor a soldier can afford is banded mail; aything more expensive than that and you mine as well be training wizards anyway. 18 12 18 12 14 8 12 hp AC 21 +7 (1d8+4) +6/+1/+2 MW Warhammer (312), MW Banded Mail (400), Tower Shield (180) [892/900]; Armor Check Penalty -14 Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe) 14 20 14 12 12 10 10 hp AC 18 +8 (1d8+2) +4/+5/+1 MW Longbow (600), MW Studded Leather (175), Cure Light Wounds Potion #2(100) Alchemist Fire (#1) [895/900]; Armor Check Penalty 0 Weapon Focus (longbow) What is so overwheling powerful about that dwarf soldier? The two hit point or the three points of AC? I'd call the attack/damage balanced, but elves can do this from over a hundred yards away. By the time the dwarve close, the elves are gone. Elf gets better saves (+2 Will vs. enchantment), plus with the cheaper cost, they get cure poitions for more hit points. With a reflex save of +1, kiss your dwarves goodbye, fireball is going to take out massive groups at once. The elven army is a lot cheaper to run, so I added potions and alchemist fire, ecause I had to spend even money. The alchemist fire is basically a sure kill with a touch AC and Reflex save. The elves aren't going to stand there and let the dwarves close in on them. They are a mobile unit, they are going to run, climb, jump, and swim. None of these things can a dwarf soldier do. Think about the roman armies being broken apart by the huns and other barbarian tribes. Organization are armor does not mean invincibile. The PHB says they are known for the skill at warfare. Mobility and stealth can win a war. It happens. If anything we aren't looking at a quick victory of the dwarves. We are looking at a long drawn out occupation, which I don't think favors the dwarves, especially becasue their low charisma is going to hurt when negotiatiing with the other creatures in the area. Basically what you are saying is that with a larger army and better equipment, that dwarves will win. What I am saying it that if we level out the playing field (equal armies, equal money), it isn't a landslide victory. You want to give your dwarves siege technology, I want to give my elves high level mages; that levels the playing feild. If your dwarves are that militaristic, then my elves are that magical. We have fighter versus dukblade, with clerics and wizards on the battlefield. Now, your dwarves have barrels of flaming oil, and my elves have magical frost catapults. I could go on forever, but none of this has anything to do with Dwarves (+2 CON, -2 CHA) and Elves (+2 DEX, -2 CON). In your campaign, elves are wusses. In my campaign, dwarves tetter on the edge of extinction because of their pride and greed. Seriously, core books, elves are the favored enemy of orcs and hobgoblins. The hobgoblins are a mucher stronger millitary than dwarves, because they are all LA +1. If the elves can deal with these warriors, I figure they can hold their own against dwarves.
AngryJake 12-28-07, 03:50 PM	why would dwarves have the same amount of wealth as elves they mine the earth for adamantine, mithral, iron, gold, and silver, where do the elves obtain their money. If dwarves don't wear dwarven battle plate then who does, also I don't remember seeing a spell that causes floods. Darvision= perfectr vision out to 60 ft in any light, so yes dwearves can march at night Tower shields can provide full cover, no arrows.
elondir 12-28-07, 04:39 PM	Elves because they're better looking and better wizards.
The_Shaman 12-28-07, 05:08 PM	and your point being, we're talking mostly low level npc's, level five max, with the occasional higher level hero, probably 10 at the most, sure their favored class is fighter, but I'm sure there are some clerics of Tharmekhul out there sporting the fire and war domains. Are we? I don't remember any qualification of how big the groups are, etc, etc. Because we are talking about elves and dwarves in general; besides, I thought it was a "which race do you prefer," not "which race can win in a fight." I meant to say that your tactic can easily be countered through magic, arcane or divine - and I'd say that elves are quite likely to be proficient in magic that affects the weather, unlike dwarves - Cloudburst, Control Temperature, Control Weather, Fimbulwinter... Elven mages are long-lived, you know; chances are some of them will be quite powerful. As for spells causing floods, you haven't looked far enough. There is an epic spell that does just that - Dilluvial Torrent, but you don't need to go that far. There are spells that affect stone, rock and water, and dwarves - as a race that lives underground - are very vulnerable to such ones. In fact, I've heard ideas about using several decanters of endless water to drown an underground city. As for elves obtaining money, their crafts are valued quite highly as well, and their expertise in enchanting items can earn them quite a bit. They may have less gold than dwarves, but they have enough to get along quite well. Quite frankly, however, I doubt the dwarves are foolish enough to go after the elves when they have their ancestral homelands to defend - or win back - from such abhorrent vermin like goblins or orcs. Elves have barely annoyed them compared to the grudges they have against the greenskins.
turalisj 12-28-07, 05:49 PM	why would dwarves have the same amount of wealth as elves they mine the earth for adamantine, mithral, iron, gold, and silver, where do the elves obtain their money. If dwarves don't wear dwarven battle plate then who does, also I don't remember seeing a spell that causes floods. Darvision= perfectr vision out to 60 ft in any light, so yes dwearves can march at night Tower shields can provide full cover, no arrows. question- how old are you? Do you have any concept of economics? Elves have rare woods such as bronze wood and darkwood. Flood= 1-way portal to the plane of water. Please don't turn this into the old 'Illithid vs Drow' thread. (you'd have to be here for a while to remember it)
AngryJake 12-28-07, 06:13 PM	my age, 21(most of the time), not that its any of your damned business. yeah those rare woods pretty expensive, but not as valuable as adamantine alone, much less all the valuable metals and precious stones combined. and in a world thats pretty much constantly in a state of conflict which do you think is in demand, Iron & Steel, or some freakin wood. as for the level thing, I'm just going to assume that this world isn't solely populated by super high level npc's congratulations, your "Flood" tactic is pretty much reliant on high level spell casters, and those guys are everywhere[/sarcasm]
Supercupcake 12-28-07, 06:54 PM	Well I'm no fangirl, but I prefer elves because I usually have a magic user or rogue character. But if I were to be a fighter, a dwarf would be a great choice. Though I lean towards elves... :P
turalisj 12-28-07, 11:19 PM	Whatever. To each his (or her) own.
Silverthumb 12-29-07, 01:06 AM	Whatever. To each his (or her) own. In other words, the thread is dead. That's what that always means, because of course to each their own, but that's not really a discussion.
AngryJake 12-29-07, 01:31 AM	Victory is mine!!
turalisj 12-29-07, 02:19 AM	Think that if you want. Here, have some perfectly safe kegs of ale.
Thenameless 12-29-07, 03:49 AM	Elves because they're better looking and better wizards. Good enough for me.
Wharin 12-29-07, 10:37 AM	Think that if you want. Here, have some perfectly safe kegs of ale. Throw in some Poisonberry* Pie, and I'll join in on the revelry. *Er, sorry, thats Boysenberry... It's not a dwarf thing after all.
CryoSilver 12-29-07, 10:41 AM	Elves because they're better looking and better wizards. Really? How so? Is it their lower hit points? Or maybe their bonuses to non-wizard class skills? Because all the dwarves have is a boost to Constitution, bonus on saves vs magic, a +4 to resist being tripped/bullrushed, and darkvision...
Dog_O_War 12-29-07, 12:07 PM	my age, 21(most of the time), not that its any of your damned business. yeah those rare woods pretty expensive, but not as valuable as adamantine alone, much less all the valuable metals and precious stones combined. and in a world thats pretty much constantly in a state of conflict which do you think is in demand, Iron & Steel, or some freakin wood. as for the level thing, I'm just going to assume that this world isn't solely populated by super high level npc's congratulations, your "Flood" tactic is pretty much reliant on high level spell casters, and those guys are everywhere[/sarcasm] Dude, your comparing raw materials gatherers that generally don't trade with outsiders versus a race of adept casters and artisans. Art has always been worth more than the base products, and that is what elves produce; art. So now we'd be comparing the elf's wooden crafts - which cost practically nothing in raw materials, because lets face it; elves grow trees like they were, well... trees - versus the dwarves' metal crafts - which have a depreciated value simply because materials used can't really represent the value of art. So elves are selling nothing for something while dwarves sell something for something; seems to me that the elves have a tremendous business sense. Elves mine too, as metal comes from other places than the deepest parts of a mountain. So they use that metal (which I might like to add that adamantine isn't mined, it's created like steel) with their minimalist weapons. Bows contain no metal, and arrows use very little of it; a race that uses a virtually free material to deal damage equal to that of 5Lbs of steel (that is longbow versus longsword); hmm...which is more cost effective? It seems they are doing alright in the cash department (selling cost-free materials for high prices is the way to go). Also, darkvision is really good, for 60ft. Since night could allow for 60ft poor light, that's 120ft of sight that the elf has, which is good sinse he's using his cheap to make weapon, and since tower shields are made primarily of wood, I doubt dwarven loggers (sinse there are so many of them) will be using that wood to do other things besides fuel their forges; because they have all that metal to smelt. Originally Posted by CryoSilver Originally Posted by elondir Elves because they're better looking and better wizards Really? How so? Well, given that it is their favored class it means there is a greater number of them as opposed to other races. This means there will be a much higher number of good wizards than with other races. Secondly, elves get access to the private members club by virtue of race (re: feats like elven spell lore) which gives them an advantage. Looking at the requirements, only the top percentage of other races (that are wizards) can gain access, let alone the ones who will actually take the feat. Meanwhile elves of an int of 11 could take it. There are other feats like this as well. Sinse CON is only of use to a combat wizard, and that there are many more aspects to the game than just that it stands to say that the CON loss is a non-issue. Resistance to magic is also a non-issue as generally every dwarf benefits from this regardless of class. That is, a dwarven wizard is no more likely to have spells cast apon him than an elven one; and an elf has complete immunity to certain spells and resistances to others as well. This is why an elf is the better wizard. As for being prettier; short chicks are one thing; short, bulky women, who may or may not have a beard is a completely different matter. Also, sinse personality may go a long way, that charisma penalty dwarves have isn't really helping. EDIT: I'd play either one, as I like them both equally.
AngryJake 12-29-07, 12:36 PM	Adamantine is found in meteorites, and in the ground (Dmg). Dwarves don't need to sell anything the make cash to buy equipment since they are capable of crafting everything they need, and maybe you haven't heard but Dwarves are considered to be the finest craftsmen in the world. Yeah you know those famous elven mines, there's a whole bunch of those[/sarcasm]. Steel tower shields are made out of steel, not wood(RoS)
turalisj 12-29-07, 01:34 PM	Where are you getting your second statement from? Do dwarves have some +4 to all craft skills that no one but you has heard of? Oh, and I prefer playing a race for it's roleplay, not rollplay, value. Elves were the first race I've played and have been the most common race (next to kobolds of course) race I've played. It's just a matter of personal choice. Besides, all shall bow to the might of the kobold and their draconic masters! Or are you going to say that your village of 100 dwarves can hold off a couple hundred kobold with a juvenile red dragon?
Dog_O_War 12-29-07, 01:42 PM	Adamantine is found in meteorites, and in the ground (Dmg). Dwarves don't need to sell anything the make cash to buy equipment since they are capable of crafting everything they need, and maybe you haven't heard but Dwarves are considered to be the finest craftsmen in the world. Yeah you know those famous elven mines, there's a whole bunch of those[/sarcasm]. Steel tower shields are made out of steel, not wood(RoS) Actually there are books that predate the current DMG, fluff books - that state otherwise. Adamant is found in the ground, but it is one part of the whole product. Printing money, as Russia found in the 80's was pointless. No one in their country wanted what everyone already had a ton of. When you flood the market of a particular item its value diminishes. This is basic economics. Yes elves mine. And they are as famous as all those dwarven wood workers you perport to know about (the ones that refine wood to be used in other products like shields and crossbows). From SRD Shield, Tower This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else. When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance. Shield, tower 30gp, -10ACP, 50%ASF, 45 lb. Well since the wooden version is 45Lbs. and a steel version would weigh about double this, good luck with that.
AngryJake 12-29-07, 01:48 PM	+2 on craft checks related to stone or metal(+4 for earth Dwarves UA), and page 8 RoS: arts and crafts. And if the elves are such masterful artisans where is their racial crafting bonus. seems I'm the only one willing to cite sources, everything I hear from the elf side is merely conjecture.
AngryJake 12-29-07, 01:50 PM	A Dwarfs speed is unaffected by the load they carry. Mushroom stalk usually, it grows underground. The Dwarves aren't printing money, they're making armor and weapons instead of buying them.
turalisj 12-29-07, 02:03 PM	And how are the blacksmiths paid? Do dwarves barter instead of using currency? If so, good luck with that. Like I said, it's a matter of opinion. We can argue this all year long (have nothing else to do, meh), but it wont prove anything. So why don't we all just bow to our dracnoic masters? :P Btw, MINDBOLDS RULE! :D (see sig)
The_Shaman 12-29-07, 02:53 PM	So why don't we all just bow to our dracnoic masters? :P There's wisdom in that. To a 900-year Red, "elves" and "dwarves" are just different food groups.
Sinfire Titan 12-29-07, 03:56 PM	Elves because they're better looking and better wizards. Oh tell me this is a joke. Someone please tell me he is joking about this! Looks mean nothing. Hell, the Iconic elf in the PHB is a mutant cricket, for the love of the Nine! And Elves are horrible wizards. Out of the PHB, Haflings, Dwarves, Humans, and Gnomes all make better wizards. Because Optimization is the key to survival. If you aren't alive, you can't RP. And to contribute to the argument: Dwarves have a key ally: Gnomes. If the Gnomes get dragged into the fight, the Elves will bite the dust, hard. Also, Dwarves have considerably more allies than Elves ever will. Let's take another look at an actual fantasy war between the Elves and the Dwarves. The War of the Beard. The battle lasted for decades, ending when Sigmar joined forces with the dwarves to fight the orcs that were invading. The Elves were left in the cold, and ended up withdrawing to their native lands to avoid further casualties. The war was undecided in the end, but one could make a strong argument that the dwarves held better territory, and had stronger allies in the Empire. Granted, this is Warhammer, not DnD. If the same thing happened in DnD, Dwarves would have more enemies to deal with than just the Elves. While they would have to divert resources to defend against this kind of a two-fold front, their primary enemy would be willing to strike out at the Elves. Orcs have a greater reason to hate the Elves, who actually insulted their god, than the Dwarves, who they fight over territory for. The Dwarves, being mostly LG, could work out an arrangement to stave off the Orc horde's focus. Kobolds, OTOH, are going to be more worried about the Dwarves winning, and would probably support the Elves, which would shift the Gnomes to the side of Dwarves by racial enmity. Note, this is barring Pun-Pun from the fight, just to make things fair for either side. Humans would only get involved with whichever side they agreed with. And with humans comes Warforged, as they were created by Humans (if in Eberron). With Humans comes a great increase in power. They have versitility, something the Elves lack. Halflings wouldn't be inclined to affect either side. They have no reason to get involved with the battle, unless the inclusion of Orcs adds Giants to the conflict. in which case the Halflings would most likely side with Elves.
The_Shaman 12-29-07, 04:33 PM	Oh tell me this is a joke. Someone please tell me he is joking about this! Looks mean nothing. Hell, the Iconic elf in the PHB is a mutant cricket, for the love of the Nine! And Elves are horrible wizards. Out of the PHB, Haflings, Dwarves, Humans, and Gnomes all make better wizards. For the love of Kopyrka...In moments like these, I'm thinking whether there shouldn't be a reverse-stormwind fallacy. Roleplaying flavor is not a direct corollary of optimization guidelines - neither directly following from them, nor directly opposed to them. Instead of discussions on flavor, we seem to have degenerated into a "my dad can kick your dad's ass" arguments about power diverging from the current D&D mechanical scheme. I'm sorry, but I think you sometimes confuse the two. Elves are, and have long been, a magical race. That the 3.5 mechanics doesn't translate that very well, well, that's another story. As for that War of the Beard, I don't know Warhammer enough to comment. One big war between elves and dwarves - the descent of the Drow - didn't end very well for the dwarves, who lost several of their ancient citadels. Against the drow, of all races - a race that, according to most current optimization efforts, s***s so bad it needs a respirator. This alone makes me sceptical of any sure conclusions of how an elf/dwarf war will end, especially ones based on 3.5 racial traits. And for all your hate of Mialee (one of the two iconic elves, but I don't remember anyone calling Soveliss a mutant cricket) she is a mage. The dwarf is a fighter. I don't really care about her looks, to be honest. In fact, I'm glad there's one elf who doesn't look like a ******* model - not that a wizard, who probably has disguise self/alter self in her books, really needs to care how she looks when she's trudging around in a dungeon. And if my limited knowledge of such matters holds, after a month or so of trekking through the wilderness, dungeons and wastelands everything vaguely female can look alluring. I rather doubt Mialee has ever had problems in the romantic department. As for your ideas on alliances and all that, you're entitled to them - but keep in mind that a) it's a purely a matter of my ideas of typical fantasy vs yours, and b) you seem to be drawing ideas from several unrelated settings that might not work very well together (Eberron, Warhammer and CharOpland, from what I've seen so far ;) ). Gnomes, iirc, tend to have quite good relations with elves and would rather not join anyone trying to kill him. Same for humans - who might like logging in the elven forests, but are certainly not averse to the promise of spoils from the dwarven treasuries. Orcs... Whle orc would imo prefer to fight elves in general, are also more likely to fight the dwarves simply because orcs quite often tend to share territory with the dwarves - they often live in mountains and hills, and certainly don't mind living in caverns where their light blindness doesn't matter and their darkvision works just fine. Plus, they hate magic, and find elves yucky.
mattgoodman502 12-29-07, 04:59 PM	look at dwarven defender for example. this is a CORE prc that is only for dwarves. and damned powerful too. then you have more core dwarf love with their urgosh and waraxes... exotic weapons that the dwarf gets proficinecy in for FREE! no exotic proficiencies or exclusive prc's for the elves in core. arcane archer?
AngryJake 12-29-07, 05:05 PM	And how are the blacksmiths paid? Do dwarves barter instead of using currency? If so, good luck with that. Like I said, it's a matter of opinion. We can argue this all year long (have nothing else to do, meh), but it wont prove anything. So why don't we all just bow to our dracnoic masters? :P Btw, MINDBOLDS RULE! :D (see sig) why dont you study up on dwarven society a little, a dwarven smith doesn't expect to be paid for work in service to dwarven kind, seriously before you make any more ignorant statements about Dwarfs read Races of Stone.
The_Shaman 12-29-07, 05:24 PM	arcane archer? :rofl: You know, I had nearly forgotten about that mistake of mother nature and father WotC. Yes, it certainly shows that elves can **** quite well when they put their mind to it :P why dont you study up on dwarven society a little, a dwarven smith doesn't expect to be paid for work in service to dwarven kind, seriously before you make any more ignorant statements about Dwarfs read Races of Stone. Races of Stone... you mean that book where not even a single she-dwarf had a beard? You sure picked a heck of a source here ;) . Anyway, I'm not sure where you got this information from, but RoS certainly implies that a dwarven smith can expect to be paid, and paid well. I remember it being said that the clan elders can require a dwarf to perform some service, but it didn't say that said dwarf won't be well compensated for it - in fact, one of the purposes of the clan is to protect its members, especially from poverty. A dwarven smith doesn't work for free as much as on credit - and even that doesn't happen often.
turalisj 12-29-07, 06:09 PM	why dont you study up on dwarven society a little, a dwarven smith doesn't expect to be paid for work in service to dwarven kind, seriously before you make any more ignorant statements about Dwarfs read Races of Stone. So, a dwarf can't pay for food, dwarven society collapses, and the dwarven nations are no more. Don't you love economics at work? As a final statement: Dwarves, their whats for dinner.
Arco Versipellis 12-29-07, 06:23 PM	seems I'm the only one willing to cite sources, everything I hear from the elf side is merely conjecture. I don't think that is true. Other people have used spells, feats, and tower shield information. I made a comparison of two typical soldiers. A bonus to stone and metal checks is not going to voer all of your bases. Dwarves need beds (requires feathers I would assume) and fabric and leather, where are they getting these things from? I think the reason elves don't get a skill bonus is because they craft a wide variety of things, while dwarves stick to stone and metal. Mushroom stalk? Your entire war machine is fueled by mushroom stalk? There would need to be vast fields of this stuff to feed the army that you are talking about. A huge supply of fresh water, too, though that isn't as much of a problem. What is a problem is that the dwarves are going to need to run supply caravans from the mountains to their frontlines. Meanwhile, elves are likely to have at least a few ranks in survival, so these troops don't require as much support. An elf guerilla with the Elf Dilettante feat, can be completely self-sufficent, making his own bow and arrows as well as supplying his own food. Also, he can use knowledge skills (geography, history) to gain advantages. He can even set up traps. A dwarven soldier can fight, and he needs support to do that. If a dwarven smith doesn't get paid, it seems to me like there wouldn't be many dwarven smiths. Those foolish few we entered the profession would starve to death. I disagree that the dwarves would have more allies. The charisma penalty means that dwarves are harder to get a long with from the beginning. Elves are, in many settings, the pinnacle of society. Consider that their leaders a likely to be extremly old and probably know many other world figures that the dwarves. These all really boil down to campaign issues, which are going to vary greatly. I've played plenty of elf casters and survived. An elf wizard should have constitution as their third highest stat. They should still get bonus hit points and Improved Toughness is not a bad feat (after level 3). I prefer the 30 foot land speed, and a dwarf caster can't benefit from one of their core racial abilities. Also, low light vision allows you to use long range spells, but darkvision is limited to close range. Plus, there are some good feats for an elf caster andthe racial substitution levels are nice, too.
Dog_O_War 12-29-07, 06:36 PM	why dont you study up on dwarven society a little, a dwarven smith doesn't expect to be paid for work in service to dwarven kind, seriously before you make any more ignorant statements about Dwarfs read Races of Stone. ....So your entire knowledge of dwarven culture stems from a spatbook put out last year. Get a clue; D&D is 30 years old. The idea of dwarves older than that. D&D dwarves are modelled after tolkien Dwarves, so your arguement only holds water in two settings; LotR and Greyhawk. That means all of us playing Faerun, Ebberron and countless other settings, not to mention homebrewed ones have what is known as the majority. We the majority deem your knowledge on the subject bunk, as dwarves are however the players and DM portrays them. Maybe calm down abit; your anger clouds your judgement and thought process.
The_Shaman 12-29-07, 06:55 PM	and a dwarf caster can't benefit from one of their core racial abilities. Er, which one? The only feature that a dwarf caster probably won't use is the weapon familiarity - but wizards don't care much about hitting at things, while everyone else has heavy maces, morningstars, and the like.
Thenameless 12-29-07, 07:24 PM	Oh tell me this is a joke. Someone please tell me he is joking about this! Looks mean nothing. Humans would only get involved with whichever side they agreed with. Actually, looks can mean everything. Helen of Troy (generally considered the most beautiful woman in history) launched a thousand ships. Beauty is inspiring. Hard to quantify, but it makes a difference. Humans mate with elves, thus half-elves. Partially because their genetics are compatible, but also (and this is only my opinion, but I'm sure shared by many others) because they find each other attractive. As a human, I could see myself finding an elven female attractive, but not a dwarven female. This doesn't necessarily mean that the humans would join the elves, but a mixed marriage of human and elf would almost certainly favour the elven side of the war. Enough influence from these individuals, and their half-elf offspring could easily swing the tide of war. At the very least, the above dynamic gives one solid reason for humans NOT to favour the dwarven side of the conflict.
Sinfire Titan 12-30-07, 01:13 AM	Actually, looks can mean everything. Helen of Troy (generally considered the most beautiful woman in history) launched a thousand ships. Beauty is inspiring. Hard to quantify, but it makes a difference. Humans mate with elves, thus half-elves. Partially because their genetics are compatible, but also (and this is only my opinion, but I'm sure shared by many others) because they find each other attractive. As a human, I could see myself finding an elven female attractive, but not a dwarven female. This doesn't necessarily mean that the humans would join the elves, but a mixed marriage of human and elf would almost certainly favour the elven side of the war. Enough influence from these individuals, and their half-elf offspring could easily swing the tide of war. At the very least, the above dynamic gives one solid reason for humans NOT to favour the dwarven side of the conflict. Please don't quote mythology as an argument against me. As I very much love it, I would rather not have to argue over it. Humans have a stronger reason to side with Dwarves: Economics. Precious metals are mined, not grown in trees. More humans would side with Dwarves at the whims of their leaders, and some would side with the Elves for either sexual comfort/wanting to take over Dwarven mines. And you are right about the mixed marriages part. But money talks, and loudly at that.
Valgoth 12-30-07, 02:27 AM	I am 100% absolutely biased here. No hiding it at all... I love dwarves, and play mostly dwarves... actually, I couldn't tell you the last time I didn't play one. That being SAID, here's why I think dwarves are better than elves. Let's go line by line to determine it. Remember, I'm extremely biased: *Stat boost D: +2 con / -2 cha E: +2 dex / -2 con Dwarf wins hands down. There's not a class in the game that couldn't benefit from a little extra con. And cha is most everyone's dump stat anyway, save bards, sorcerers, and the occasional rogue. The elves dex bonus is good, don't get me wrong, but it's 1 AC/1 reflex save/1 initiative can't hold a candle to con. And on top of that, elves LOSE con? No thank you. Point: Dwarf *Medium size (tie) *Base land speed D: 20 E: 30 Point: Elf *Sight D: Darkvision E: Low-light vision Point: Dwarf *Magic resistance D: +2 versus spells/SLA E: Immune to sleep, +1 versus enchantment Point: Dwarf *Weapon proficiencies D: Dwarven waraxe/Dwarven urgrosh E: Longsword, rapier, bows Point: I'll give it to the elf, because those weapons are far more common... but it's a close one. I consider the urgrosh to be one of the most underrated weapons in the PH. *Awareness enhancers D: Stonecunning E: +2 listen/search/spot, elfin secret door detection Point: Depends on the campaign, but probably elf. In a classic dungeon crawl, the dwarf reigns supreme (so long as your DM remembers to do it.) But elves are slightly more aware, so... I'll give it to them. *Favored class D: Fighters E: Wizard Point: I'll say tie, because comparing two core classes is dumb. BUT I'd like to point out, con is always a banner stat for a fighter. And Dwarves make better wizards, what it the better spell resistance and more hitpoints. *Stuff that elves have no answer to D: +2 versus poison, +4 versus tripping and bull rushing, +1 attack versus goblinoid and orc, +4 to AC versus giants, +2 appraise/craft on stone or metal E: *cricket* Point: Dwarf, dwarf, dwarf, dwarf ---------------- Total: D: 4-7 E: 3 And when you consider dwarves win in stat boost, magic resistance, and have several abilities elves have no comparison to, I think you can see the winner is clear. -Once again, I'd like to note that I am extremely biased.
Valgoth 12-30-07, 02:56 AM	As for the roleplaying aspect of it (as I read the thread and shake my head in disgust)... who the hell runs a campaign and bases their character after what the PHB describes the "average" example of that race to be? Hell, even WotC doesn't do that (Drizzt, anyone?). Being someone who plays a lot of dwarves, I've played everything from the stalwart, unmovable Dwarven Defender to my current character, a Dwarven Transmutor with sarcasm to spare. You can play stealthy, evil dwarves (they go LOVE gold, remember) or Dwarf paladins, holding high the hammer of Moradin for the good of the world. No race in the PHB has more roleplay value than any other (except maybe gnomes). It's just as easy to play an average human or average elf as it is an average dwarf. That's why they call it average.
Thenameless 12-30-07, 04:22 AM	Please don't quote mythology as an argument against me. As I very much love it, I would rather not have to argue over it. Humans have a stronger reason to side with Dwarves: Economics. Precious metals are mined, not grown in trees. More humans would side with Dwarves at the whims of their leaders, and some would side with the Elves for either sexual comfort/wanting to take over Dwarven mines. And you are right about the mixed marriages part. But money talks, and loudly at that. Okay, fair enough, let's not involve Greek mythology. I still make a very valid point in saying looks count. It sounds like we're both reasonably smart people, and I'm sure both you and I have seen that in our world, looks alone can make life easier and/or help one to get ahead. I understand that looks doesn't exactly equal charisma in D&D, but I believe it is partly encompassed in the charisma ability. The dwarf penalty to charisma (again in my opinion only) is partially due to their natural gruffness, and partially due to their not so elegant appearance. Now, if we take the fact that the dwarven race in general, has a penalty to charisma versus their elven counterparts, the elves would generally have an easier time in diplomatic relations with races that view both in a neutral light. This, you must grant me, could play a huge part in winning a war. I will give you this - money talks. Economics would play a huge part in human decision-making. It does in our world, so I'd be a fool to say it doesn't matter. Where I don't necessarily agree is the tie-in you make with the human need for dwarven mining. Let's take ourselves outside of both your D&D world, and my D&D world. In the generic D&D world, humans are the dominant sect of the "goodly" races, outnumbering their dwarven, elven, halfling, and gnomish brethren. Humans have a strong presence in all facets of the economy. Farming, mining, logging, manufacturing, fishing, smithing, you name it. While humans probably have the most trade overall with other races, they are also the least reliant on trade with any one other race for their prosperity.
AngryJake 12-30-07, 06:42 AM	you say elves are artisans, where is your support, nowhere in elven racial entry. you say Dwarves don't generally trade with outsiders, where's that quote from. the clan has the right to call upon any individual clan members resources at any time, in return he gets a place to live and the support of hundreds of other individuals, think it more like guild dues. I thought we were talking about D&D Dwarves, going off resources generally available to the public to give players of the game a better idea of what the societies of the races presented, you can house rule whatever you want but it's not terribly valid in this discussion because I can house rule whatever I want. WotC published Races of Stone, WotC owns D&D, thusly we can consider the version of Dwarven society published in this book to be the standard of all D&D Dwarven society economics: supply and demand, there is a limited demand for art and wood crafts, however nearly every nation with a standing army has a need for weapos and armor, some of these items get stolen, or broken or just wear out crearting a higher demand for items such as thes that are of superior quality which the Dwarves will craft and sell you at a higher price. also the majority of ore mined is mined by dwarves, so even if you don't buy armor from Dwarves chances are you bought their ore. Elves have wood from trees they're reluctant to cut down.
Magocrat 12-30-07, 07:24 AM	In Eberron? Elves all the way. I love the way they are so different from standard elves, both the Valenar and the Aerenal elves. While both cultures fit the elf's racial traits, they do so in wildly different ways. An Aerenal necromancer has a perfectly good explanation for her Constitution penalty because of her trafficking with undead; a Valenar elf has a perfectly good explanation to be proficient with their weapons, because they're such a martial culture. Their culture and their playstyle makes them interesting and refreshing to play. Dwarves in Eberron, however, are just dwarves. They're cool, and have some traits, but they don't really have a lot going for them. Anywhere else? Dwarves, if only just to heckle all those elf fanboys. Like someone else said, they're an excellent choice to play the fighter, although I personally prefer a dwarf with a penalty to Dexterity, instead of Charisma. It fits them better. For example, dwarves are tough traders and intimidating warriors, I think that justifies the change of penalty. Anyways, you can go a lot of ways with a dwarf's background, because of his strong ties to his clan. Was his clan destroyed, and is he the only remnant, was he cast out and adventures to redeem himself, or is he on a mission? All that and more could be dwarven motives for adventuring. On a sidenote, isn't it awkward how it's difficult to tell a male from a female in both races? Elves are just androgynous, and in 3.5, there's still the discussion of whether dwarven women have beards or not. (I'm glad that issue has been solved in 4th Edition, the example dwarven woman actually looks attractive.)
Sinfire Titan 12-30-07, 03:17 PM	Okay, fair enough, let's not involve Greek mythology. I still make a very valid point in saying looks count. It sounds like we're both reasonably smart people, and I'm sure both you and I have seen that in our world, looks alone can make life easier and/or help one to get ahead. I understand that looks doesn't exactly equal charisma in D&D, but I believe it is partly encompassed in the charisma ability. The dwarf penalty to charisma (again in my opinion only) is partially due to their natural gruffness, and partially due to their not so elegant appearance. Now, if we take the fact that the dwarven race in general, has a penalty to charisma versus their elven counterparts, the elves would generally have an easier time in diplomatic relations with races that view both in a neutral light. This, you must grant me, could play a huge part in winning a war. I will give you this - money talks. Economics would play a huge part in human decision-making. It does in our world, so I'd be a fool to say it doesn't matter. Where I don't necessarily agree is the tie-in you make with the human need for dwarven mining. Let's take ourselves outside of both your D&D world, and my D&D world. In the generic D&D world, humans are the dominant sect of the "goodly" races, outnumbering their dwarven, elven, halfling, and gnomish brethren. Humans have a strong presence in all facets of the economy. Farming, mining, logging, manufacturing, fishing, smithing, you name it. While humans probably have the most trade overall with other races, they are also the least reliant on trade with any one other race for their prosperity. Then we agree to disagree on this. Looks can't win a war by itself. It must be supported by something else in order to be useful. Humans are very materialistic, we both admit this. I say they need dwarven help because dwarves are of the three races that have a true knack for mining (the other two being Gnomes and Kobolds). I normally associate the physical stats with how someone looks. Cha is more personality-oriented IMO. Just remember something: Everyone likes to have a personal midget in a suitcase.:P
Arco Versipellis 12-30-07, 03:48 PM	Er, which one? The only feature that a dwarf caster probably won't use is the weapon familiarity - but wizards don't care much about hitting at things, while everyone else has heavy maces, morningstars, and the like. I was talking about the ability to retain their base speed in medium and heavy armor. There are plenty of ways to get 0% spell failure in light armor, but I am not sure about medium. I consider this and the stonecutting (which I hate) to be at the center of the dwarf's racial ability (maybe with dakvision). AngryJake, I assume the notes as the elves are crafters is from Races of the Wild. People get paid for their work in guilds. That is why guilds exist. To regulate business. Wood is used to build homes, carts, weapons, shields, furniture, boats, books, and heat. We aren't talking about wood crafts, we are talking about lumber, which has been used since the beginning of time. I would assume most armies use cheap leather armor and wood shields because they are cheap. If I am not mistaken, wood is even necessary for the tanning of leather. Also, think about the uses of tree sap, the fruits or nuts they produce. All of these things are viable trade goods. I think after having a long vital history in almost any campaign world, the elves are going to have some money saved up. Mining does not exactly mean rich. The intemingling of human and elves is only going to support the fact that elves are better diplomats. I say the humans will side will them. That said, I think an appealing part of both races is that these two opposites come together to battle common enemies despite their hate for each other. I don't think I would like elves so much if it wasn't for dwarves being there is stark contrast. Still, I have to say, if you get thirteen dwarves and a halfling together, the halfling will be the hero.
Thenameless 12-30-07, 06:05 PM	Then we agree to disagree on this. (Shakes hands) I figured this is more or less what it would boil down to. It really is a matter of taste between the two very different races. Too bad not everyone participating in this thread is as civil as you.
The_Shaman 12-30-07, 08:01 PM	I was talking about the ability to retain their base speed in medium and heavy armor. There are plenty of ways to get 0% spell failure in light armor, but I am not sure about medium. I consider this and the stonecutting (which I hate) to be at the center of the dwarf's racial ability (maybe with dakvision). Not necessarily... Spellsword can get you 0% ASF with mithral twilight full plate in only a few levels, and RoS has a PrC for wizards - Runesmith or something - that negates somatic components if you use some runes instead. I can't really imagine a plate-clad wizard anyway, but you can actually do it.
Sinfire Titan 12-30-07, 08:08 PM	(Shakes hands) I figured this is more or less what it would boil down to. It really is a matter of taste between the two very different races. Too bad not everyone participating in this thread is as civil as you. I try to be. I also try to see things from other's perspectives often. Though this is one topic I'm not going to do it for, as I'm racist towards Elves. I've had very bad experiences with Elven characters, and they just don't suit my needs as a player.
Arco Versipellis 12-31-07, 12:45 AM	Not necessarily... Spellsword can get you 0% ASF with mithral twilight full plate in only a few levels, and RoS has a PrC for wizards - Runesmith or something - that negates somatic components if you use some runes instead. I can't really imagine a plate-clad wizard anyway, but you can actually do it. Yeah, but then you have a give up caster levels. I wouldn't want to do that in the search for armor, but that is just men. I don't own Races of Stone, though I want it. I was noticing earlier that Heroes of Battle's morale rules arent especially kind to the dwarves on the battlefield. They don't lose morale quickly, but they have a slightly hader time with rally checks. I'm going to drop some racial bonuses against enemies and replace them will a bonus to morale saves. I thought the rules for a Volley of Arrows helped the elves as well, as the don't even have to roll against a real armor check and the save if Reflex. I also noticed the Elven armies are slightly bigger than the dwarf armies at the platoon level, but they are completely balanced (number wise) past that. It also says that the dwarves are favored in close quater areas, such as their mountain homes, where they can close distance fast. They apparently prefer to defend their mountin homes much of the time. The elves prefer to protect their homes and rarely go on campaigns of conquest. Doesn't really seem like they would really be interested in fighting each other.
vaderboy 01-01-08, 11:00 AM	i dont know thats a tough one in general probably a dwarf but when im playing something more specialized an elf. in a war between the two id have to say dwarf hands down at first level (which most standerd soldiers are) a dwarf can kill most elves with one hit.
Khelendross 01-01-08, 05:32 PM	I'm going with Dwarf
drunkman 01-01-08, 11:04 PM	Valgoth, you've convinced me that Dwarves are the better deal, but there are some things wrong with your analysis. Let me analyze what you covered *Stat boost D: +2 con / -2 cha E: +2 dex / -2 con Dwarf wins hands down. There's not a class in the game that couldn't benefit from a little extra con. And cha is most everyone's dump stat anyway, save bards, sorcerers, and the occasional rogue. The elves dex bonus is good, don't get me wrong, but it's 1 AC/1 reflex save/1 initiative can't hold a candle to con. And on top of that, elves LOSE con? No thank you. Point: Dwarf Couldn't agree more myself. I find myself always putting the 9 or 10 that was in my dice roll to Charisma, I just don't see the point unless you have a lot of Charisma-based abilities like a sorcerer (which I guess I don't have enough of for my characters to have above 11). Yeah, you need charisma for social interactions of course, but for characters that are more social, it's just better to just have a high intelligence (which is just good for skills, period). But Constitution on the other hand is just arguably better with more PC's in general; whether you're the wizard who just lacks a lot of blood to spare in battle or just a fighter who does a lot of fighting (or somewhere in between), constitution is always nice (and charisma always fins itself as the "dump-score" at least in most of my experiences). *Base land speed D: 20 E: 30 Point: Elf Well, a heavy armor user would be tied on this because of the Dwarves speed thing with wearing heavy armor, but of corse, an elf combat character always finds itself being the a ninja,rougue, or archer type of combatent, often wearing light (or no) armor and Dwarves vice versa, so this factor doesn't matter much, elves are generally faster in combat than Dwarves. *Magic resistance D: +2 versus spells/SLA E: Immune to sleep, +1 versus enchantment Point: Dwarf Now this analysis has the most issues. It's actually a +2 bonus to enchancements, but nevertheless, Dwarves outright win this because their bonus covers all situations, whereas elves' bonus cover only enchantments (merely a fraction of all spells in the book) and the outright immunity to sleep is really nice but covers yet a fraction of those enchantments, therefore, I got to agree with you on this. *Weapon proficiencies D: Dwarven waraxe/Dwarven urgrosh E: Longsword, rapier, bows Point: I'll give it to the elf, because those weapons are far more common... but it's a close one. I consider the urgrosh to be one of the most underrated weapons in the PH. Well, the elves are proficient with all this stuff, but the Dwarves ony have weapon familiarity, meaning the Dwarven waraxe/uragosh is considered a martial weapon, and not exotic to them. It isn't a question of how powerful the uragosh is, elves win i this outright. But it really is marginal about weapons becoming martial versus being proficient because being a fighter or most combat-oriented classes autimatically makes you proficient with all martial weapons period. And if you're an all out spellcaster, you don't go charging in with an uragosh anyway, you just hit em hard with magic missiles, and when you spells go dry, you run away and ping em with a couple of arrows and bolts. *Awareness enhancers D: Stonecunning E: +2 listen/search/spot, elfin secret door detection Point: Depends on the campaign, but probably elf. In a classic dungeon crawl, the dwarf reigns supreme (so long as your DM remembers to do it.) But elves are slightly more aware, so... I'll give it to them. You're issue isn't a question on who wins this, elves still defeat dwarves outright on this. In the event of a dongeon crawl campaign, it would be a tie, wouldn't it? Same +2 bonus, but elves still have that "elfin secret door detection", so they win whatever the issue. *Sight D: Darkvision E: Low-light vision Point: Dwarf I dunno, in a cave with no frickin light, Dwarves outright, but in a dimly lit area, it really depends on how bright the light is at night. If it's the moonlight, starlight, ect. allows 30ft normally, that would be 60ft for elves, meaning it ties with the Dwarve's 60ft darkvision. Below that then it's Dwares, bu above that is elves. I'd say this is more closer to a tie than you make it seem, but I think the darkvision is the slightly better deal, because you're guarenteed to have at least decent vision in all situations at night, unlike low light vision. *Stuff that elves have no answer to D: +2 versus poison, +4 versus tripping and bull rushing, +1 attack versus goblinoid and orc, +4 to AC versus giants, +2 appraise/craft on stone or metal E: *cricket* Point: Dwarf, dwarf, dwarf, dwarf And Dwarf deal just wins like that just because of all those bonuses. Even without this extra bonuses that elves all cover, I'd still give it to the Dwarves, because Dwarves just win on more traits that cover each ifferent situation and all the things that elves win on are just marginal (except the awareness bonus area). And Dwarves have the better deal in general on ability scores (as explained above), which is the main reason why you'd pick a race. That's not to say I don'tlike playing as elves. There's this gray elf assassin that I'm making that just seems good in potential, and I like gray elves just for that, but I hate their arrogentness.
Jarsallen 01-03-08, 06:50 PM	Elves are considerably dumber than Dwarves, too. Consider, if you will, your average 200 year old Dwarf to your average 200 year old Elf. Dwarf: Int: 12 Wis: 12 Chr: 12 Elf: Int: 11 Wis:11 Chr:11 (Of course that's not even comparing the average 70 year old elf to a 70 year old human, in which case both the dwarves and the elves look like developmentally disabled morons). I'm not sure the position that elves control resources through their dominance of the lumber industry holds a lot of water. I'm not sure that the elves are totally cool with people cutting down trees and using them for firewood- I always thought the hippy-tree-hugging image of elves were of people who warped trees into homes rather than cutting them down. I know in Forgotten Realms there are a lot of conflicts between humans and elves when the humans start logging, yet not so many conflicts with dwarves when humans are like "Dude, we're totally gonna dig up a mine and strip it of its precious ores". The Dwarves tend to say "We can totally help you with that, and we'll give you a good price on anything we craft out of the shiny stuff we dig up." Also, don't dwarves ignore encumberance issues with regards to their move? I mean, that alone seems pretty fantastic. As a question of individual characters I can't think of an adventurer who didn't say, at some point, "damnit, I wish I could carry more!". As a racial question, it seems to me that an army of dwarves that can be loaded up with all manner of provisions and supplies and still be mobile. Soldiers, particularly in medieval/ancient eras (and even today) are loaded up with tons of supplies, and a Dwarven army that moves at a solid 20' a round regardless of how much they are carrying is at least the equal of any other army in terms of mobility, and better than most. Couple in the +2 to con (+1 to fort save), that army is less likely to get sick or tired. Nope, in a war humanity will likely side with the dwarves who aren't being prissy about using natural resources, and the dwarves are likely to stomp all over the elves in a conflict. From a games mechanics perspective, dwarves seem the superior race by the numbers. Also elves cause cancer.
Silverthumb 01-03-08, 07:47 PM	Also elves cause cancer. Not all of them. That's a subrace.
The_Wild_King 01-03-08, 08:25 PM	Dwarves all the way. Not going to bother defending it with thousands of possible scenarios, just look at the types of governments. Dwarves are orderly and strict, elves are chaotic and place individual freedoms above those for the greater good. Hence, a Dwarven government will work more efficiently and productively than an Elven one most of the time. Yes, there are instances where dwarves are chaotic and elves are lawful. No, I haven't read every fantasy book out there, so please don't waste your time looking up examples.
Ocom 01-03-08, 09:10 PM	Both are pretty pathetic. Stat wise I prefer elves(in general).
Hanzo187 01-03-08, 09:19 PM	Also elves cause cancer. Beat me to it. Not all of them. That's a subrace. Tell that to Tordek. I still say the Dwarf women shave, too. There's a conspiracy, dammit.
mattgoodman502 01-04-08, 12:18 AM	http://www.elchineroconcepts.com/Dwarves.jpg vs. http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/b/b4/170px-Xandir.jpg 'nuf said
Silverthumb 01-04-08, 01:05 PM	^ I rofl'ed hard.
Sinfire Titan 01-05-08, 02:13 AM	http://www.elchineroconcepts.com/Dwarves.jpg vs. http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/b/b4/170px-Xandir.jpg 'nuf said This wins hard. Very F***ing hard!
Dragoon_Warrior 01-05-08, 08:58 PM	Personally I perfer human, can't top the bonus feat. But between these two races I would choose elf if I was playing a caster :mage: or rogue :elf: and a dwarf for anything else :monk: . So I guess my pick is Dwarf. :fight!:
AngryJake 01-07-08, 12:04 AM	Also, don't dwarves ignore encumberance issues with regards to their move? I mean, that alone seems pretty fantastic. As a question of individual characters I can't think of an adventurer who didn't say, at some point, "damnit, I wish I could carry more!". As a racial question, it seems to me that an army of dwarves that can be loaded up with all manner of provisions and supplies and still be mobile. Soldiers, particularly in medieval/ancient eras (and even today) are loaded up with tons of supplies, and a Dwarven army that moves at a solid 20' a round regardless of how much they are carrying is at least the equal of any other army in terms of mobility, and better than most. Couple in the +2 to con (+1 to fort save), that army is less likely to get sick or tired. Nope, in a war humanity will likely side with the dwarves who aren't being prissy about using natural resources, and the dwarves are likely to stomp all over the elves in a conflict. From a games mechanics perspective, dwarves seem the superior race by the numbers. Also elves cause cancer. 5 Dwarves and a Ballista and you've got yourself a tank
Silverthumb 01-07-08, 01:53 AM	5 Dwarves and a Ballista and you've got yourself a tank You can do that with a Goliath w/ Fling Ally(Hulking Hurler, for the lulz) and 5 Dwarves. Plus, it makes for a great adventuring party & a running joke, too.
Sinfire Titan 01-07-08, 02:04 AM	5 Dwarves and a Ballista and you've got yourself a tank A.K.A: A bunch of midgets and a giant stack of lumber. How does that sound for intimidating?
AngryJake 01-07-08, 05:03 AM	just cover the whole thing in steel so you can't laugh at my Dwarves.
Sinfire Titan 01-07-08, 06:00 AM	just cover the whole thing in steel so you can't laugh at my Dwarves. Ok, it's a bunch of midgets pushing around a giant pile of lumber covered in scrap metal. I'm still laughing at it. They just can't hear me through their full-plate.
Millet 01-07-08, 08:50 AM	I like both races almost equally, but I prefer elves. I used to be rather disgusted with elves, but I changed my mind after reading "Evermeet: Island of the Elves" by Elaine Cunningham and other recent trilogies for the FR. I like grace and subtlety. I love the idea of living for hundreds of years. All the knowledge that can be amassed, seeing the world change, it all seems wonderful to me. My 2 cents.
Dragoncat 01-07-08, 03:00 PM	I am glad to see so many fine kinfolk rejecting the horrible propaganda of the elven blight, but saddened still to see that their festering lies continue to beguile the decent folk. Therefore, I will continue my pursuit of spreading the truth about these horrible aberrations. I believe I have been too focused, however, on the individual elf, not shedding enough light on the foulness of their decrepit society. Thus, I offer the second section of my work, the first having appeared in a past edition of this fine publication. Here, I will touch on a few finer points of their entire wretched civilization, if you will pardon the humor in that term. Elves would have you believe they are one with nature, dwelling in harmony with all living beings. They get along well with other races, protect the needy, and develop magical and mechanical wonders, all with the same fluid dexterity they themselves possess. Elven communities love free will, and everyone lives throughout the centuries in happy, frolicking love. If yea ever need fertilizer for ya farmland, just ask an elf about his homeland. You'll get enough brixashultyshit for a year. Elves are often loners, but will sometimes ban together into a common hive for mutual benefit against the goodly races. The average elven hive-mound is a large, mushroomed tower, festooned with blistering sores and snapping tendrils. Elves live inside the dome, for their moldy skin does not stand the light of goodness for long. Migrating in and out by way of either the tentacle stalks or disgusting orifices, they slip squelchingly about their dirty work. It is an unfortunate facet of these spore colonies that they are very difficult to stamp out, incidentally. An elven swarm can move to battle, warmongering filth that they be, extremely quickly, thus foiling any attempt at ambush. Moreover, the pus-infused walls of the mound itself absorb missile weapons and fire all too easily. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cor_gallery/89578.jpg Elves bursting out of their hive. Elves refine their corrupting abilities on the forest around them. They subvert the natural order, using the trees and animals as pawns to attack decent demifolk. Have yea heard of the elven hound? Supposedly a magnificent beast, a great combatant, and powerful tracker. Why, pray tell, does a peaceful, nature loving community breed such rabid, violent abominations? Mutated to the size of a small horse, these crazed monstrosities are a pet project of foul elven grafting, designed for the singular purpose of attacking innocent foresters. Elven hounds account for a full twenty percent of random encounter attacks in elf-infested areas. What takes up the rest? Dire animals, mostly. Dire animals. Creatures that are mutated, gaining greater size and power. Elven hounds, beasts that are bred into larger, more vicious creatures. Coincidence? I think not. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/row_gallery/86668.jpg The elven hound, an insatiable, frenzied monstrosity, meant to terrorize and maul. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/row_gallery/86637.jpg An elf, in the act of mutating an animal. Yes, it seems perfectly innocent. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90006.jpg Until the subversive results are revealed. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_34b.jpg Another magnificent being, dragged through the filth of elven grafting.[/img] As a result of the grafting and mutation, the dire animals live in a constant state of agony, the direct cause of their aggression. Upon seeing any humanoid being, they mistake them for their elven tormentors, immediately initiating combat. Elves know this well, engineering their vile manipulations to take place near communities of the goodly folk in order to destroy them. But I get ahead of myself. Back to elven culture. Each elven hive is lead by a single blighter, who rules a small cabal of elven witches. Yes, the rulers of an elven "community", as much as their abhorrent and wicked warrens can be called such, are all magic-wielders. It is true, I must admit, that elves delight in the magical arts, despite having no natural ability with it. Because they lack any innate magic whatsoever, such as the wonderful cantrips of the proud gnomish people, elves must use more despicable means of gaining power. In order to acquire corrupt conjurations for their wretched ways, elven witches rely on vile pacts with evil and otherworldly beings. Their favorite candidates for these immoral bargains are, discussed in order, the evil draconic forest dwellers, the creatures of the abyss, and the undead scourge. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cor_gallery/89551.jpg Elves have a long, terrible history of sacrificing innocents, creating depraved pacts, and wielding contemptible corruption to gain power. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cor_gallery/89568.jpg Well documented in the history of the races is a group is their alliance with green dragons of the woods. I need not mention the atrocities this reptilian race has committed across the globe, yet elven histories blatantly display their "Forestlord" heritage(Dragon Magic, p.8). Now, they will claim that these deals were practical, and they held no worship or idolization of the green terrors. Yet how can yea say you did not get along so well with your allies, when these "Forestlord" elves, blighted horrors that they be, go as far as to manifest physical traits related to the dragons? A twisted family tree, these supposedly benign abominations hold. When yer entire nation is placing yea old Rod of Lordly Might into the portable hole with the draconic population, as they say, yea have a seriously twisted empire. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dmag_gallery/100208.jpg On the left, the forestlord elf stands, proud of its vile ways. Do note, in this image, the enslaved dwarves, who fought valiantly against the evil red dragons that tormented them, eventually finding freedom. Their noble sacrifice of their clan has led to greater peace and prosperity for all, but that is a lesson for another time. And while we're on the subject of the elven family history, let us discuss another interesting trait, there love of …..well, intimate relations with the underworldly. The Fey'ri are another wonderful example of elven bastardization, mixing their rotting blood with that of horrors beyond. Born of demon and elven evil, deep in the hives of the highest coven of elven witches, the Fey'ri are another path to power for the elves, trying to claw there way up from their vile depths. By breeding with the foul denizens of the depths in wretched and nauseating rituals, "fine elven culture" seeks perverted power, abhorrent arcanum, with which to attack the good of the world, offensive it is to their envious eyes. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rof_gallery/49756.jpg The common Fey'ri is a vile admixture of tainted elven blood and the corrupt power of demons. Is there a better symbol of elven "culture"? And finally, to complete our foul trio, is the elven relationship with undeath. I could go on endlessly with the macabre horrors of the elves, but I will simply touch on one at this time. The Baelnorn. Elves proudly proclaim these foul fiends to be their guardians, elves who have "sacrificed their mortality to serve beyond death." Yes, I'm sure a long existence, feasting on the lifeblood of others through Elfrot is quite a gem to give up for unholy immortality. Did I mention the unspeakably evil rituals of lichdom? Or the fact that Baelnorn are, in fact, terrible monsters, twisting unlife to further the elven attack upon all goodly races? http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG167.jpg Yes, I'm sure he's a well adjusted abomination against all that is holy. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/leof_gallery/86708.jpg Very happy to get along with the neighbors, too. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToMagic_Gallery/96023.jpg Now, I am not suggesting that elves have such "intimate" relations with the undead as they do with evil dragons and demons. I am not, however, denying the fact. Granted these abominable abilities by the foulest of sources, elven witches strike out at the decent demihuman races, spreading corruption, depravity, and evil. Yes, I hear your question in the back, and I'm glad you asked. Indeed, the elves will be quick to claim how they fight against the forces of darkness. They always jump to their favorite example, their age-old war with the drow. But tell me, my friends. The drow are a twisted race, making vile bargains with unholy powers in order to spread their wickedness atop better races. Does that sound so different from the vile elves themselves? Hear the truth, my friends! The drow are just another subset of the elven menace, the ultimate undercover operation, if you will. Finding favor out of the light, which burns their despicable skin, these twisted elves further the cause of the hives beneath the surface, the roots of the fungus of which the surface elves are only one component. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rof_gallery/49731.jpg They would have you believe the fight on through eternity… http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rof_gallery/49746.jpg But in truth, they conspire together, drinking to the downfall of all that is decent. Why, then, do these elves prey upon decent folk, destroying their innocent lives with their tainted powers? They want our dreams. Elves will scoff at the need of other races to spend eight hours in slumber, describing how superior their four hours of meditation can be. Underlying their words, however, is a far deeper trait, that of envy. For elves, in their depravity, are incapable of the calm of sleep, the peace of slumber. Their hearts and minds filled with the tarnish of a thousand vile forms, they cannot reach the simple serenity of the goodly folk. And it infuriates them. Elves use their subversive magic, granted to them by vile beings, in order to infest the minds of others, stealing away the dreams they covet. Think me mad, do yea? Well, explain this! http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rof_gallery/49732.jpg Elven hunters set upon an innocent soul, striking his mind with demonic powers, seeking his dreams. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/exhbk_gallery/90597.jpg By twisting the innocent dreams of the good, elven avarice begets nightmares. And that, my friends, is the true culture of the elves. Vicious and revolting, they seek to spread horror and depravity across the realms, infecting us in body and mind with sickness and disease. Why, then do so many accounts of the elves paint them in a wonderful falsehood, a benign light that covers up their monstrosities? After all, the average book treats elves with praise that goes beyond any pedestal, any prize. Elven description in novels is akin to something I cannot describe, lest the St. Cuthbert Censorship Board finally find me, but I will say this. It's the literary equivalent of a certain action that involves kneeling. And isn't prayer. These terrible lies, I'm sad to say, are due to a dark secret of the scholarly world, one which I have only now been able to bring out into the light. Elves kill scholars. Like doppelgangers, they seek them out, destroy their lives, and wear their skins over their pest-ridden husks like sheets, metaphorically speaking, placing themselves in their role. Then, everything in their writings is based on ensuring elven propaganda, giving their sickening race all the praise they can print. Look upon any list of heroes, and know that where stands any elf, there was once a human, dwarf, or halfling in its place, before the horrors of elvenkind erased these valiant men and women from history. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sx_gallery/98398.jpg Elves preying upon upstanding scholars, silencing the truth about their evil ways. Mark well anyone who supports the elves. At best, they are simply deceived. At worst, the friend you knew is dead, and the elf has stolen away his skin. Still unconvinced? Very well. I was unsure if I should add this to my report, given its…shocking nature. You may wish to ensure you are sitting down, not feint of heart, and stocked up on heart medication for this horror I am about to show you. I give to you, taken at great risk by a fellow scholar and friend, a single image of nigh-inconceivable actions, the most depraved desecrations and sickening ceremony, a villainous elven gathering, contemptible copulations with nefarious half-demon dracoliches, sacrifices of innocent human infants, and the foulest magic yet to be seen by mortal eyes! This image has been removed from this publication by the St. Cuthbert Censorship Organization for failure to comply with rating regulations. The SCCO relies upon a system, set to measure the reaction of individuals to determine appropriate content in all material published within its borders. Ranging from gasps, retching, to exflagellation, the system is perfectly accurate in ascertaining the exact nature of each piece of content. The 9/10s retching ratio indicates that this image fails to maintain the standardized gasp-request, or G-rating. Ergo, it has been removed from this publication, and a fine has been sent to the writer, for the safety of the young adults who might be exposed to such material. Have a very law-abiding day. And that, I believe, pretty well proves everything I have ever said. It is a lot to get off of my chest, but with that final piece of evidence, which nearly resulted in the death of my colleague, I feel at peace in this pursuit. Therefore, in the spirit of friendship, I ask you, my comrades, who will you choose? Dwarves or Elves? http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cor_gallery/89556.jpg Kilroth Hammertong, Impartial Scholar
Sinfire Titan 01-07-08, 04:25 PM	*Snip* :rofl: Awesome, just pure, freaking awesome!
Master_Vega 01-07-08, 09:40 PM	Win on a slice of fine toast with cheesecake on the side. :rofl: It's people like you, who spend so much time making posts, that make these boards a blast. :P Kudos, sir. Kudos.
Drizztrocks 03-28-08, 10:51 PM	[QUOTE=GuyrtheadamantineOne;14644202]Dwarves, 'cause nobody outside the mountains DOES know a damn thing about dwarves! Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. QUOTE] Isnt that a country song? I'm sorry, I just heard it over the radio about a week ago. The ABSOLUTE dummest song ever. Something about a guy cheating on his wife and a hammock in an attic....and they kept saying "That's my story and im stickin' to it" over and over and over again. I almost puked.
Drizztrocks 03-28-08, 10:58 PM	question- how old are you? Do you have any concept of economics? Elves have rare woods such as bronze wood and darkwood. Flood= 1-way portal to the plane of water. Please don't turn this into the old 'Illithid vs Drow' thread. (you'd have to be here for a while to remember it) and just to add to that age thing...have you even takin a 3rd grade spelling class yet?
ciaran 03-29-08, 12:56 AM	I've only played one Elf in recent memory, as he was pretty fun. Rich and flavorful, bit of a snob. I've played several dwarves though, all quite diffent. They're good and sturdy characters. It is true that it is not as much work to roleplay them. Is the question, then, that Elves are a challenge and therefore more fulfilling, or that dwarves allow you to freeflow more easily? I'm sorry. A Con bonus is more than I can live with. I'm sure there was a joke in there somewhere. Moradin smites Corellon.
Ecalsneerg 03-29-08, 09:18 AM	I both like and dislike elves. In one campagin, my Tiefling Ranger was raised by elves, has an elven name and worships Corellon. In the campaign I DM, all the elves are extinct and have been for thousands of years. Besides dragons, only they could use arcane magic, so only the dragons know what happened. and trust me: they ain't telling.
ciaran 03-29-08, 12:05 PM	You can do that with a Goliath w/ Fling Ally(Hulking Hurler, for the lulz) and 5 Dwarves. Plus, it makes for a great adventuring party & a running joke, too. What was it that Gimli says in Fellowship of the Rings at the crumbling staircase?
nova head 03-29-08, 09:08 PM	Dwarf. (if I feel I need to explain this later I will)
sonofzeal 03-29-08, 11:45 PM	Having played both Elves and Dwarves, I have to say that my Dwarven characters are usually more fun. I enjoy melee, lawfulness, and durability ( +2 saves vs spells/sla's = <3 ). Yay Dwarves!
ChaosWolf1982 03-30-08, 11:17 AM	Dwarves. Why? Because elves are liars. Sure, they will tell you their magic is supreme. They prattle on about their bonds with nature, mystical abilities, and dedication to art and beauty. They'll brag about being masters of swordplay and archery as well. Elves will lay claim to any environment, asserting that they have mastery over that domain, the best possible architecture, and the best possible traits. Elves lie. Look upon their stats, yea people, and see something amazing. They have no natural magic. They have no boons to dealing with nature. Gnomes, cousins of the dwarves, do, however. The average elven swordsman is no better than a human a century younger, both have the same accuracy. Their missile weapon abilities have no benefit beyond dexterity, and halflings exceed them. Moreover, the hin also defeat the elves in any regards to stealth, and are equally if not more nimble and accurate in all respects. Finally, elves have no crafting bonuses whatsoever. No, my friends. These myths of beautiful, haunting creatures of grace and magic are nothing but lies. Let me tell you what elves really are. Let us begin at their beginning. As a child, the common elf is the result of a ritualistic spawning practiced by two elven parents. No, not an elven father and mother, elves actually have no permanent gender. Instead, their androgynous forms gradually grow to mimic the normal reproductive traits of other, greater species, and any given elf can transition between the two. Photographic evidence, vaguely female to vaguely male: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97122.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG56_WEB.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/spellcomp_gallery/92178.jpg During the ritual, which is far to disgusting for mortal ears, a new elven larva is created. Elven physiology is a difficult subject, as their natural form is so very difficult to pinpoint. It is interesting to note that, despite poor constitution, an elf possesses an incredibly long lifespan. This is because elven biology is based not around protecting itself from disease, but from absorbing it. Elves draw filth, parasites, and other damaging creatures into their systems, becoming a hive of festering decay. As a result, their body changes to mimic its surroundings. Underwater, an elf is full of vicious sea-based microbes, while in a city, it will contain more garden-variety corruption. Thus, rather than be an eventual victim of disease, elves instead thrive in it, becoming hosts to plagues they can spread across the world. An elf absorbs surrounding filth. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/spellcomp_gallery/92242.jpg A water elf, fully stocked with watery parasites. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/storm_gallery/90752.jpg A swamp elf. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/storm_gallery/90769.jpg Now, many skeptics will now claim that elves should die when subjected to such putrescence. This would normally be the case, if it were not for the single magical ability elves naturally possess. By channeling their connection to the defilement, elves can pass on their blight to surrounding creatures, particularly in the form of sabotaging expecting mothers. Concentrating their vile witchery on the unborn, an elf creates an inner plague in another being, supplementing their own lifespan with that of an innocent. Yes, my friends, it is true. Elves cause cancer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI) Elven cancer, or Elfrot, usually effects young women, sometimes men, gradually destroying them from the inside out. It is an insidious disorder, one that can take years to manifest completely, by which time the elf has retreated back to its underground mire, wallowing in more carrion. A terrible, heartrending tragedy, one that has struck many upstanding dwarven and human communities. Mira Forgerunner, the poor lass... ... ... Pardon me, I need a moment. ... ... Apologies, long memories of a time far gone. Moving on... From an early age, these elf spawnlings are instructed in insidious means of violence, for elves are naturally inclined towards causing discord. By withholding food, elven parents ensure that their next generation will be similarly gaunt and withered, allowing them to add disguising features quite easily, squirm through the tiniest spaces to infiltrate houses, and escape capture when quarantined by upstanding citizens. All elves are trained in weapons suitable for dishonorable combat, from backstabbing with rapiers to sniping and fleeing via long ranged missile fire. Furthermore, they are attuned to the portals of their dank caverns, their senses honed in the pulsating light of scavenged luminescent fungi, allowing them to lurk for extremely long periods of time, even years. Elves then spread out across the world, bringing with them their putrid cargo. By planting themselves near honest communities, they sow rot and grime from a place of refuge, fueling their lifespan. Lurking in the shadows, elves will go to great lengths to acquire magical items to hide their natural disfigurements. Their favorite targets are wizards, and by learning their habits and methods, elves prey upon them during their sleep. Through huge amounts of stolen magic, usually claimed after the honest wizard has succumbed to an infestation of Elfrot or been stabbed in the back, elves are finally capable of entering their adult phase of plague. Walking amongst the living, using massive illusions to hide their wretched forms, elves sow further strife in society. After managing to find a suitable innocent to host their plague, and elf creates the vile Elfrot, then retreats to a den. Often, an elf will corrupt the surrounding landscape, infusing it with filth and decay to create a lair. Lurking in the deep recesses of the putrefaction, the elf is free to subsist on the innocent's life force for many years. A grove, corrupted by the fungal-like spores of a elven filth http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/row_gallery/86612.jpg Breaking this putrid, parasitic bond is nearly impossible without finding the vile elf, purifying its noxious lair, and ending its corruption completely. Unfortunately, stamping out the elven menace is very difficult, as they can wallow in their lairs for more than the average human's lifespan, sapping the strength of the unwary and innocent. I therefore urge all adventurers to be wary of this plague upon our good lands, and to strive to curb its corruptive influence for the good of all. Kilroth Hammertong, Impartial Scholar Speaking as a lover of dwarves (mostly their women and their beer), this is the best thing I have ever seen in my life.
superlad 03-30-08, 12:33 PM	I really just like dwarves because there the fat guy in the group like me.I mean thats why I like them since they look like me.And D&D is about playing someone different then you,when actually Im playing myself with an axe and casts healing spells.:thumbsup:
Admiral_Lourve 03-30-08, 01:20 PM	I say dwarves, if only for the allies they could mass. I mean, gnomes would help them since they always have close ties, humans would help them so they could have the elven land afterwards, goliaths would help since they share the same mountains that are being attacked...but really, who'd help a elf?
ChaosWolf1982 03-30-08, 01:38 PM	I say dwarves, if only for the allies they could mass. I mean, gnomes would help them since they always have close ties, humans would help them so they could have the elven land afterwards, goliaths would help since they share the same mountains that are being attacked...but really, who'd help a elf? Someone who was really drunk and thought they were just weird skinny humans?
Admiral_Lourve 03-30-08, 01:46 PM	Someone who was really drunk and thought they were just weird skinny humans? No!, the correct answer is no one!:P
ChaosWolf1982 03-30-08, 02:35 PM	No!, the correct answer is no one!:P You may be right. I mean, I'm not even sure elves like other elves, come to think of it - they just stick around each other because nobody else wants to bother with them.
wraithstrike 03-30-08, 03:05 PM	I both like and dislike elves. In one campagin, my Tiefling Ranger was raised by elves, has an elven name and worships Corellon. In the campaign I DM, all the elves are extinct and have been for thousands of years. Besides dragons, only they could use arcane magic, so only the dragons know what happened. and trust me: they ain't telling. By campaign do you mean current adventure or do you mean for any adventure you run elves are not available? This is a question of curiosity, not debate, just pointing that out so you know I won't be trying to get you to change your campaign.
Ecalsneerg 03-30-08, 04:11 PM	By campaign do you mean current adventure or do you mean for any adventure you run elves are not available? This is a question of curiosity, not debate, just pointing that out so you know I won't be trying to get you to change your campaign. The current campaign setting I'm using only. In other settings, official or homebrew, elves are fair game.
Isamu_Ryoya 03-30-08, 05:04 PM	Allow me to quote a few of my more stout-hearted companions here: Redbeard, the Iron Bastard) Who'd you rather have by YOUR side in a fight, hm? A tiny sapling or a sturdy boulder! Ha! That's what I thought... *chugs another tankard* Gil Coppertin) I prefer to be paid in gold and gems and weapons and armors, not leaves. Azhell Oddrunner) Sickening little multi-colored matchsticks! Sure, some of them look more burnt than others... *glares at the Drow*... But their still just used little matchsticks!
Sunic_Flames 03-30-08, 06:00 PM	Dwarves. Elves don't make any damn sense whatsoever outside of maybe Eberron where at least the fluff isn't utter crap and disconnected with (game) reality. Dwarves however, it is easy to see how they survived without dues ex machina. They're tough, they look out for their own, and they don't take any crap. If it didn't have to be one or the other though I'd say neither, simply because I don't like Charisma penalties. Even when they don't mean a damn thing mechanically speaking. I'm sure some Dwarf subrace gets around this, but said subrace is likely FR, which manages to make my dislike for the pointy ears seem fanatical devotion by comparison.
ChaosWolf1982 03-31-08, 02:39 AM	The only time I've ever been truly disappointed in seeing a Dwarven female (and no, unless we're talking LOTR or Discworld, they have NO beards) is in D&D Online, where even the best ones still look like a midget John Madden with breasts. :weep: How often, on the other hand, have I been disappointed by seeing an Elven female? Let's start with Mialee and work our way down the list... :rolleyes:
Sunic_Flames 03-31-08, 08:02 AM	Oh yeah, and I forgot to give Dragoncat a :cookie: for that Oscar winning performance. :P
Isamu_Ryoya 03-31-08, 09:04 AM	The only time I've ever been truly disappointed in seeing a Dwarven female (and no, unless we're talking LOTR or Discworld, they have NO beards) is in D&D Online, where even the best ones still look like a midget John Madden with breasts. :weep: How often, on the other hand, have I been disappointed by seeing an Elven female? Let's start with Mialee and work our way down the list... :rolleyes: Hey now, if we're gonna get this started on women, then I say nothing, NOTHING, beats a good old fashioned human girl in the sack. :D
Sunic_Flames 03-31-08, 09:17 AM	Hey now, if we're gonna get this started on women, then I say nothing, NOTHING, beats a good old fashioned human girl in the sack. :D I find it exceedingly difficult to find one that meets my standards of attractiveness. Mostly because it takes more than a pretty face and a warm body to pique my interest. Though, even that much manages to be oddly rare... Make up, for the loss.
serow_#R 03-31-08, 10:59 AM	Orcs! *ahem*
snakeman830 04-01-08, 01:18 PM	Oh yeah, and I forgot to give Dragoncat a :cookie: for that Oscar winning performance. :P Here, throw these in with it. :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :dragon:
Sunic_Flames 04-01-08, 01:59 PM	Here, throw these in with it. :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :dragon: So dragons build up hordes of cookies now?
snakeman830 04-02-08, 12:56 PM	So dragons build up hordes of cookies now? Yes. Dragons hoard cookies now. I figured that post was deserving of getting a pet dragon for free.
Sunic_Flames 04-02-08, 02:32 PM	Yes. Dragons hoard cookies now. I figured that post was deserving of getting a pet dragon for free. For a moment I thought this was being directed at me. Oh well. Guess I'll have to go hoard stealing. :P
Soulless_Enigma 04-02-08, 03:28 PM	Dragoncat seems to have forgotten that most important of points regarding the elves! They're racist to displacer be-, sorry, I mean displacer cats. Dwarves > elves. Dwarves generally survive being looked at by the enemy. Elves... not so much. What other advantages do dwarves have over elves? Well, they have beards, axes... umm... beards. And they invented booze. So, quite clearly, the best race is in fact... *drum roll* Dwarves.
snakeman830 04-02-08, 05:12 PM	For a moment I thought this was being directed at me. Oh well. Guess I'll have to go hoard stealing. :P Stay away from Dragoncat's new pet dragon's hoarde. He earned every cookie.
Sunic_Flames 04-02-08, 05:31 PM	Stay away from Dragoncat's new pet dragon's hoarde. He earned every cookie. Well, if you want to see another example of epic thread ownage check sig. Actually, it's a two for one special. :P
Dragoncat 04-02-08, 11:03 PM	Dear readers, I thank you, on behalf of Kilroth Hammertong, Esquire, for the esteemed praise with which you have showered him in regards to his previous entries to our most noble publication. I will be passing these praises along to him shortly, but I must communicate to you important news in that regard; Scholar Hammertong is currently away on leave. Although I did not receive the news from him in person, I understand by the letter he left behind that he has been invited into the Elven territories in order to further explore their rich and diverse culture, thereby enlightening his written projects. In his leave of absence, he expressed great enthusiasm for the undertaking, and left immediately from his abode. He will be touring the Elven lands for several months, and further submissions by his hand will be sent via post to this publication. I am quite pleased at both the hospitality of our Elven friends and the enthusiastic initiative with which our scholars pursue the truth. I look forward to publishing his further articles as they are delivered here. In the meantime, I wish you all well. As for me, I have a bit of cleaning up to do. In his haste to enter his new venture, Kilroth has apparently left his abode in quite a state of disorder, which I will be endeavoring to put into repair. 'Tis practically a warzone in there. Regardless, thank you all, and a wonderful day to each of you! Odal Doljyr, Chief Editor
Sunic_Flames 04-03-08, 08:35 AM	You ate the other 10 cookies already? :OMG!
BruenorFireaxe 04-03-08, 02:58 PM	DWARVES are the best, and elves mmmm..... Dwarves have beards, muscles, royalty, honor, AXE, HAMMER, mountains and underground, BEER, constitution, darkvision, spell and poison resistence. They are great martial (fighters, monks, barbarians) and great casters (especially wizards, druids and clerics) :D Elves have trees, owls, little bows, ears, and the best of all they sleep less!!!.. :eek: Letīs see... mmm.... I stay with dwarves, I stay with Moradin.
servingwench 04-06-08, 10:36 PM	My guess is they both have their places, but those places are behind the Gnome, they are just more fun to play. :P
ashmanonar 04-07-08, 02:57 PM	Yeah, it does bug me that the source books say that elves are superior to everyone in everything, but I'd perfer elves over dwarves any day. The basic elves are alright, but once we get into the subraces, elves pawn dwarves ANY day. There are the: -High elves, basic (+DEX -CON) Box Prof. and longsword and rapier, IMMUNE TO SLEEP EFFECTS, +'s on Spot, Listen, Search (thats useful), +'S on enchantments -Aquatic Elves for exotic campaigns (+DEX -INT) Swims, can't be out of water for hours equal to CON modifier, 4x Lowlight vision, which is sometimes better than Darkvision -Gray Elves for the wizards (+INT +DEX -CON -STR) -Wild Elf for those who don't like the CON damage of a normal elf( +DEX -INT) -Wood Elves, for those who don't want to be an Orc for the + to STR (+STR +DEX -INT -CON) -Half Elves, for those who don't know what Humans are, and +'s to Diplomancy and Gather Info Dwarves, on the other hand: -Dwarf, basic (+CON -CHA) Darkvision, +'s to goblins and orcs, AC+ to giants, Prof. with Dwarven Waraxes, Stability, +'s on Poisons WOW!!! THAT IT ON THE DWARVES BEHALF! You all don't like elves just for roleplaying reasons. But in truth, Elves are hell of a lot more versatile then the molerats dwarves. You know, that's one of my biggest beefs with all the elf subraces. Half-orcs take a hit to two stats (both of them about the same level of usefulness for only ONE bonus stat, while the damn wood elves get two bonuses and two negatives. Orcs have jack else, while wood elves still get all the other elven bonuses. Bull.
ChaosWolf1982 04-07-08, 08:58 PM	Dwarves. So damn awesome they don't NEED subraces, they just keep a couple around (duergar, deepdwarves) because they feel like it.
Nyt 08-27-08, 04:10 AM	two things. Elves are awesome, and so are, to a lesser extant, dwarves. I must admit that elves have won me over completely. I actually do have one thing to add. ELVES CAN FLY!! CAN DWARVES FLY?!?!?! THAT'S RIGHT THEY CAN'T!! CAN THEY?? dwarves are the shortest medium sized race i have ever seen. Elves win, but dwarves do not lose. There is a kind of dwarf I am astounded no-one has posted yet. Azers. Shield dwarves have a history of mating with them, even though the are firey demon dwarves with an evil alignment. what type of sick bastard does that? I must not however be biased. The Fey'Ri are demon elves, so i don't really have room to talk about perversion. oh and by the way dragoncat? that was not an elf assimilating disease, that came from the elder evils book, the worm that walks infection. you do not fool me.
Nyt 08-27-08, 04:36 AM	As for the roleplaying aspect of it (as I read the thread and shake my head in disgust)... who the hell runs a campaign and bases their character after what the PHB describes the "average" example of that race to be? Hell, even WotC doesn't do that (Drizzt, anyone?). Heck no. Drizzt is not made by WotC, every bit of that wonderful credit goes to R.A. Salvatore. I just had to defend the writer who's style i have adopted.
StoneSinger 08-29-08, 04:34 PM	I really like Dwarves. My first character ever was a Dwarven cleric of Moradin. He was my favorite next to a dwarven fighter I had that took peoples kneecaps out with his magic heavy flail lovingly referred to as "kneebreaker." Oh and a dwarven monk (bar room brawler) and a dwarven barbarian named Angus. Im an angry irish guy, so I tend to gravitate towards Dwarves. I was going to say elves are okay, but thinking back on all my dwarves.....eh f*** elves. I kinda like lorwyn elves though, I think they could be cool.
TobaWareho 08-29-08, 05:16 PM	Dwarves One reason needed: Dwarven women are packin two beards. Think about it.
turalisj 08-29-08, 05:24 PM	Neither. Go with the kobold. Elves suck, dwarves suck, but kobold are dragons in humanoid form. :P
StoneSinger 08-29-08, 05:40 PM	Kobolds do indeed kick the proverbial a**. As for dwarf women packen 2 beards...there building a condo in hell for whoever said that.
vhurka 08-31-08, 07:57 PM	Personally, elves are so much awesomer than dwarves. I mean, dwarves are little dudes with beards and axes! You can see those at the renaissance fair! Nobody in real life has pointy ears or green skin. It's kind of like that quote I saw in someone's sig: "Realism be damned!" Whose sig is that, anyway?
StoneSinger 09-01-08, 01:42 PM	Wait? Elves have green skin? When the f*** did that happen!?
Nyt 09-01-08, 03:57 PM	you have a point.
Nyt 09-26-08, 12:24 PM	I have something in favor of elves, Mythals. there one thing that dwarves do not have, or are capable of having. fact is, most magical acheivements are enacted by elves. they created the first floating city i believe. also, Mythals could keep out dwarves & fireproof a forest.
YamiShinobi 09-27-08, 06:57 PM	elves and dwarves don't matter, except in gender and concept Fighter, male dwarf, orc, or human, homebrew (Dwuorc, 1/2 dwarf 1/2 orc) Mage, female elf or human, maybe some homebrew (love you nekogami) Rogue, female elf or female human, maybe some homebrew (love you nekogami) Cleric, Human (Any) or aasimaar (pelor) if female, dwarf (moradin or hanseath) if male, homebrew (some kind of celestial penguin) Druid, Female elf, human, or some homebrew (any L.A. +0 fey) paladin= celestial penguin of some sort.
turalisj 09-27-08, 10:12 PM	I have something in favor of elves, Mythals. there one thing that dwarves do not have, or are capable of having. fact is, most magical acheivements are enacted by elves. they created the first floating city i believe. also, Mythals could keep out dwarves & fireproof a forest. Once you start using campaign-specific stuff on the boards, you stop arguing with any sanity.
baneofelves 09-27-08, 11:08 PM	Dwarves. They make the good booze, armor, and weapons. Let's also take their songs into account. A dwarf hymn to the gods is completely identical to a good drinking song. Now, let's listen to an elf song. They're whining at the moon and stars. That's all it is. Now, let's take a look at an elven community and a Dwarven one that recently was attacked. The Dwarves, while mourning, honor their fallen by rebuilding and telling tales of their bravery and prowess in battle. Elves whine, complain and cry. Now, I don't know about anyone else here, but I hate whiners. There are exeptions of course, but they are extremely rare. The only elf civilization I can think of that has no whiners is the Valenar, since they live for war. Valenar are badass. The ones that are the WORST are Dragonlance elves. They cannot be redeemed.
turalisj 09-27-08, 11:18 PM	Look like someone made an account just for this thread... BoE, could you point out where in RoW that it says elves weep about their dead? Wouldn't that be more of....um...I dunno, a HUMAN thing to do? Besides, they are both pawns to be used by the future kobold overlords! :evillaugh
baneofelves 09-28-08, 02:45 PM	Actually, the name is pure coincidence. And to clarify, I was referring to Dragonlance elves and all the elves that my previous (and really messed up) DM had. SO I'm just going by what I have seen. When I see the badass elves, my opinion will change to where I respect both. As for the Kobolds, I knew Deekin's time would come. DOOM duh duh duh DOOM DOOM DOOM DOOM! WE IS ALL DOOMED! All bow before the mighty Kobolds! (hey, have you guys heard that kobolds have their own version of Spartans {Halo, not Greek} now?
turalisj 09-29-08, 01:15 AM	I actualy have, stored somewhere within the numerous notebooks of..well... notes, is a kobold nation of sorts based on the different greek city states. I simply made some cosmetic changes and added some skill bonuses and some weapon proficencies. If I ever find them again I might post them...
Korlall 09-29-08, 02:18 PM	Elf for me.. Gray elf or wood elf...
BackHandOfFate 10-08-08, 11:32 PM	Hmmm... I will decide this by going through the core classes and deciding weather it would be more beneficial to be an elf or a dwarf in this class. ---------Barbarian---------- Elves: Well the con penalty definetly hurts their rage ability. The Dex bonus could help marginally for a time but wont really have a long term effect on the character. I generally want a really high constitution when playing a Barbarian. Their immune to sleep, which could be useful at lower levels against mages that love to throw those sleep spells at a party(considering the barbarian's usually low will save). Dwarves: What?? Dwarves have a BONUS to constitution? Nuff said. What? They also have save vs spells and spelllike abilities? I'm sold! Longer Rages, more staying power against magic and poison and their landspeed, while not as good, is increased by the Barbarian's class ability and unhindered by medium armor. Winner: Dwarves! ---------Bard--------------- Elves: The elf seems like a decent choice for this class although i must admit, I have never played this class with any race before. Dex would probably Benefit the bard via various skill boosts. Dwarves: The penalty to charisma really turns me off to this possibility. This could work given you invest all of your stat increases into charisma (and start out with a charisma higher than 14 at least), and the idea is intruiging, but Dwarves IMO don't really fit the Bard role very well initially. Winner: Elves! ---------Cleric------------- Elves: Elves can make passable clerics, but their racial modifiers make it difficult for them to survive close encounters. I have actually seen elf clerics played pretty well. Dexterity isnt really a key ability for this class as clerics usually wear medium or heavy armor anyways. Dwarves: The bonus to constitution really helps their staying power especially in combat against masses of undead, however their charisma penalty will hinder him slightly with his turning ability(this is not of any large consequence). For clerics, i seem to favor a melee heavy flavor. Winner: Dwarves! ---------Druid---------- Elves: Elves seem to be right at home in this class. Their dex bonus will help due to their restriction of armor choices. They have plenty of buffs to offset their penalty to Con. Druids don't need Constitution as much as other classes because they have better mobility and ranged prowess than most classes. This suits the Elf just fine. Dwarves: The penalty to Charisma will hurt their animal empathy etc. The idea of a Dwarven Druid seems to go against the very nature of the core Dwarf class, But there is something to be said about how intruiging the concept of a Dwarven Druid is. Winner: Elves! (Epic Win) ----------Fighter---------- Elves: Their Dexterity bonus can help a fighter who is looking to qualify for TWF feats which demand ever climbing Dex scores and fighters who want to specialize in Ranged combat(Theres something to be said for a Fighter who has every single ranged combat feat by level 20 :p). However, their Constitution penalty is very taxing on a fighter, who is usually the first one to enter a hostile situation. It could work well for cross classes etc. Dwarves: Dwarves are just about the best race to take the figher class. Their resistances to poison and magic make them good frontliners. And oh did I mention the Con bonus? A Fighter needs all the hitpoints he can get. And I'm almost happy to shave two points off of his already low Charisma score. Charisma is useful to fighters like strength is useful to Mages, kind of but not really. You will also qualify for epic feats having to do with fast healing and damage reduction earlier than most classes which can make your character's staying power go through the roof! Winner: Dwarves! (Epic win) -------------Monk-------------- Elves: Taking into account the Dexterity Bonus, Elves could make very effective monks, assuming they strike fast and get the hell out of the way lest they be killed in a few rounds of combat. To use this class's abilities, you have to pretty much get in your opponents face and punch the crap out of him. Not really a good choice if your playing a class which will more than likely have a poor constitution score. The Dex bonus does boost key stats of the Monk and help his AC. Dwarves: The concept of a Dwarven Monk does not seem to have a downside. You get a bonus to Constitution, which really helps the Monk who has the worst HD for a martial class imaginable (D8... well it's not that bad). The monk is an "in your face" type of character, and he's going to take some pretty gruesome hits from time to time, the Con Bonus will ensure his survival more often than not. And again, the penalty to Charisma really doesnt have any real consequence at all. Plus, the idea of a Dwarven Drunken Master is an idea I have really been drawn to lately. Winner: Dwarves! (Boot to the Face) ----------------Paladin--------------- Elves: Elves can be viable for a Paladin class depending on how you swing it. But again, being a martial class, your expected to be on the front line of battle, and if you want to live to see your gray hairs start to set in, your probably going to want more Constitution than you will Dexterity. Dwarves: Dwarven Paladin's fit the bill quite nicely. You have added bonuses to Poison and Magic which when combined with Divine Grace can really augment the Paladin's staying power against all sorts of things. The Charisma penalty will hurt some of their key abilities, But your probably going to dedicate a high stat to Charisma to offset this. Again, your going to probably want more Constitution than you will Dexterity. You could just take the Nymphs Kiss Feat to offset the Charisma penalty. Winner: Dwarves! ----------------Ranger----------------- Elves: Elves can really shine in this class. Their bonus to Dexterity can really help them if they choose the Ranged combat tree. Plus the Dex bonus will help with alot of their key skills not to mention their low AC due to only being able to use Light armor (this is the 3.5 ranger were talking about here). Their penalty to Constitution could really hurt them if they take the two weapon fighting route, but they do have their animal companion to watch their back (although desperatly underpowered). Their enhanced senses can make them more effective trackers and help them keep from being ambushed more often, which, when you take into account their lower than average Constitution, is quintessential to an elven rangers survival. Dwarves: Dwarves have some great potential in the Ranger class. Their Charisma penalty doesnt really hurt them all that much and their constitution bonus really goes a long way in helping them survive out in the wild. (Ironic that Dwarves would have an easier time living in the forest than elves would huh?) Dwarves are viable for either of the two combat branches with the right feats to accompany them. They have a few racial enemiy bonuses(Orcs and Goblins) that would help since their probably going to run into those races on more than one occasion. Couple those bonuses with the racial enemy feature, and you've got yourself one awesome hunter. Winner: Dwarves! (Dex < Con for Ranger class IMHO) ---------------Rogue--------------- Elves: This class benefits in so many ways from the Bonus to Dex that it almost seems to fit the Elf like a glove. The Constitution penalty is probably not as big a deal as it is with the martial classes because Rogues arent meant to be on the front lines, their meant to be sneaky bastards. Their ability to spot hidden doors helps with dungeon delving. And Rogues are probably going to take Weapon finesse at some point in their careers which really helps their sneak attacks stay effective at higher levels. They have bonuses to listen, search and spot also. Dwarves: The properly specced Dwarf can probably fit the bill just as well as an Elf can when it comes to being a Rogue. The penalty to Charisma means that your going to have a harder time talking your way out of a situation, but lets face it, Dwarves aren't really built to be diplomats, and this only hinders you if your really interested in the charisma related skills (Diplomacy, etc). Their Stonecunning ability makes them ideal dungeon delvers seeing as how one of the rogues primary functions is to detect and disarm traps and notice hazards before they befall the party. Their Darkvision ability gives them a huge advantage over Elves when making their way around in the dark (which is what your going to be doing most of the time). There's also something to be said for a Rogue who can take a good punch and keep on kickin. They may not be as sneaky as Elves, but thats about the only real disadvantage I can think of when comparing the two. Winner: Dwarves! (Yes I said Dwarves) ---------------Sorcerer-------------- Elves: I'm still not quite sure if the bonus to dex outweighs the penalty to Constitution in this case. Still, when your class has a d4 for Hitdice, you really need all the Constitution you can get! A proficiency with the rapier and the longbow means that you have some interesting weapon options for the Sorcerer. But the Penalty in Constitution will hurt your concentration skill which is essential for casting defensively. Dwarves: The Charisma Penalty can really hurt the Dwarven Sorcerer as it is the classes primary attribute to determine spells. On the other hand, you will probably have a much higher Constitution than most spellcasters which means you may not be killed by the occasional lucky crit by an ambushing monster. And the bonus in Con will help your Concentration and makes you a much better defensive caster than an Elf. Your bonuses to saves can really help your otherwise frail character withstand some pretty nasty poisons. And your bonus to saving throws vs all spells and spell-like effects is far superior to the saving throw bonus vs enchantment that the elf recieves which is pretty big considering your class is a spellcasting class. I would say that while the Charisma penalty is pretty hefty for a Sorcerer, I would still probably favor a Dwarf vs an Elf for this class simply for purposes of survivability. Heck, you can always take spellfocus and greater spellfocus feats to offset the slightly lower charisma, and you'll probably end up dumping all your stat increases into that one ability anyways. Winner: Dwarves! (Yes Dwarves....) --------------Wizard--------------- Elves: Enhanced senses mean that you will keep from being ambushed more often at lower levels, but these bonuses really help at higher levels. Your bonus to Dex can be useful, but like the Sorcerer, your penalty to constitution makes you as tough as a cardboard box. Again, your racial weapon proficiencies can help you add a bit of flavor to your character's combat style. Dwarves: Dwarves again, will always have more HP in a class that is starved for it. Your saves vs poisons and magic sure come in handy with this class because the last thing you need is to be the victim of a failed save vs a spell or falling victim to poison. Your increased constitution and save vs poison will help you stay off those negative effects much more often than the average Mage. Your penalty to Charisma is of no consequence to the Mage unless your trying to focus on Necromancy and plan to take that Necromancy Feat that requires Cha 25 and lets you control 10x your HD in undead or something like that. Winner: Dwarves! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the Final Tally is.... Dwarves: 9 Elves: 2 Wow it looks like I've made up my Mind. It's Dwarves by a landslide! I'll take HP over AC anyday.
ciaran 10-09-08, 12:13 AM	I love dwarves and I can't agree with all of your votes for them. From Ranger on I don't agree. Ranger and Rogue is about evenly done by each race IMHO. And while I've seen a dwarf fill the wizard role quite well (the only PC to survive start to finish) I can't agree with Sorcerer at all.
RedGlacier 10-09-08, 05:29 AM	Let's transport this debate to a tavern... The elven fighter and his dwarven rogue companion, sitting in a corner, watch silently as several of the patrons present squabble pointlessly, trying to pass their personal opinions as fact. -Rogue:[rolling his eyes]Humans... -Fighter:Like children arguing they're adults.[finishes his ale] Well, let's go bash some orc heads. They meet the rest of the party outside -Rogue:[to the half-orc cleric]Ready to go bash on the ugly side of your family tree? -Cleric:Lead the way, shortlegs. -Warforged Psion:I swear I will never understand fleshlings. -Halfling Barbarian:What's to understand? We're all nuts. Personally, I don't care about mechanics, and I refuse to let flavor text dictate the personality of a character I create. To get back on topic... -Dwarves:hard cash(gold). Mercenaries. 'nuff said. but... -Elves: Do not underestimate their Fey allies. I also don't think gnomes would ally with either side. They get along with both, and they're not big fans of warfare. Edit:Oh yeah, BadCatMan, have a cookie. You made my night!
BackHandOfFate 10-09-08, 10:47 AM	I love dwarves and I can't agree with all of your votes for them. From Ranger on I don't agree. Ranger and Rogue is about evenly done by each race IMHO. And while I've seen a dwarf fill the wizard role quite well (the only PC to survive start to finish) I can't agree with Sorcerer at all. Thats perfectly ok that you disagree with my choices. (The title of the thread is "Dwarves or elves? A personal choice") I am really rethinking the Sorcerer thing, I may change that one. And perhaps a few Ties are in order as well despite my personal preferences.
PhrennzyDM 10-09-08, 11:56 PM	I would have sex with an elf. I would not have sex with a dwarf. Seems simple.
turalisj 10-10-08, 12:08 AM	Personaly, I don't care about any crunch or fluff arguement one way or another. I have always, and will always, play 3 different races: Elf, Elan, Kobold. I will never play a different race unless it's one of the three with a template.
Pyre_Born 10-10-08, 02:27 AM	Orcs FTW... But seriously, I like both as long as you cut down subraces from splatbooks on both sides. Their is enough fluff out their to get the style you want. But seriously, enough with the subraces :P (again, on BOTH sides) Oh yeah, and I second my own vote for Orcs :D
kyletheok 10-13-08, 09:06 PM	Oh yeah, and I second my own vote for Orcs :D Only if they are rogues. Otherwise, this is not an issue between what they get. This is an issue of self esteem, if you choose to be an elf it is because you are fat and want to pretend like you are skinny. Also you wish you were faster. And if you are a dwarf, you are a traitorous person who only cares about himself, also you wish you could drink. You also would like to be stronger. so I choose to choose any Lizard Folk, because they are cool. :cool: (by the way sorry if I offended anyone... not really...)
turalisj 10-13-08, 09:36 PM	*checks height* 6'1, check *checks wieght* 170lb, check Fat? Nope. Scrawny? Yep.
kyletheok 10-13-08, 09:38 PM	lol, I don't really think the dwarf or the elf could hold their own against lizard folk...*grins*:D
Pyre_Born 10-13-08, 09:39 PM	*checks height* 6'1, check *checks wieght* 170lb, check Fat? Nope. Scrawny? Yep. Yeah, most of the groups I've been in have had taller, skinnier kids as elves...actually now that I think of it, most of the people kind of resembled their characters :P
kyletheok 10-13-08, 09:43 PM	although, you may not fit in the norm. *cough* I must revise my views. i switch it around fatties are dwarfs and skinnies are elves. also people who are stubborn are usually dwarfs. I would know because one of my PC's is stubborn, and always plays a dwarf.
kyletheok 10-13-08, 09:43 PM	also if i have caused confusion TOO BAD!!!:P
turalisj 10-13-08, 09:59 PM	Yeah, most of the groups I've been in have had taller, skinnier kids as elves...actually now that I think of it, most of the people kind of resembled their characters :P Yeah, the short and fat ones usualy play dwarves. Next: Haflings, Gnomes, or Kobold? :D
kyletheok 10-13-08, 10:03 PM	defiantly kobolds, I love making kobolds that kick but because the pc's or dm think they are weak. they make excellent rogues. and the get to talk with s'es like: give's me's your loot's :)
turalisj 10-13-08, 10:13 PM	Yeah, I got the DM to let me make a kobold rogue for 4e but it never got off the ground.:weep:
kyletheok 10-13-08, 10:18 PM	too bad, it would've been pretty sweet...:cool: how about catfolk, kiloren, or halfling
turalisj 10-13-08, 11:47 PM	Kobold, then elf, elan, and killoren. Top 5 would be... dunno actualy... :D
kyletheok 10-14-08, 07:05 PM	good old human... not! No the best race i would have to say is.......(drum roll please...) ............ .................um........you guys promise not to hurt me, right?
SilvercatMoonpaw 10-14-08, 09:27 PM	Dwarves, because ale-swilling people who fight a lot are just plain fun. Scottish accents optional.
turalisj 10-15-08, 10:57 AM	good old human... not! No the best race i would have to say is.......(drum roll please...) ............ .................um........you guys promise not to hurt me, right? *grabs by the neck* Depends. And have you ever seen my kobold pirates with a jamican accent?
TheAntiTroll 10-15-08, 01:53 PM	Your Druid entry is Epic Fail. See, there's this neat thing called Wildshape that makes your Dex quite meaningless, but your Con still applies. Elf Druid = -2 Con, no bonus. Dwarf Druid = +2 Con, -2 Cha. Let's see... one loses the most important stat overall in the game, one loses... +1 on a skill check, tied to a stat you probably made an 8 anyways. Therefore, dwarves win.
BackHandOfFate 10-15-08, 05:01 PM	Your Druid entry is Epic Fail. See, there's this neat thing called Wildshape that makes your Dex quite meaningless, but your Con still applies. Elf Druid = -2 Con, no bonus. Dwarf Druid = +2 Con, -2 Cha. Let's see... one loses the most important stat overall in the game, one loses... +1 on a skill check, tied to a stat you probably made an 8 anyways. Therefore, dwarves win. Its true that their con penalty can really hurt them, and if I was to choose a druid class, I probably wouldn't choose either of those races. I would probably go with Forest Gnome and take mounted combat feats to ride a dire boar animal companion into battle.... Yeah.. shweeet. But back to the topic at hand, The con penalty can be easily bypassed in this case because the Druid recieves alot of long lasting buff spells(Bears endurance for one) and healing spells. And Druids can be specced to be either melee focused or ranged focused. If your gonna go for a long distance spell caster, Elves will hold the advantage. But I'm willing to concede to the fact that without careful and painstakingly painful planning ahead of time, 99% of encounters will end up being melee focused mainly. So I guess it just depends on what kind of characters you want. I chose elves as the winner mainly because of the fact that nature is their whole niche. I said Epic win because it was an epic battle.
RobbyPants 10-15-08, 09:59 PM	But back to the topic at hand, The con penalty can be easily bypassed in this case because the Druid recieves alot of long lasting buff spells(Bears endurance for one) and healing spells. But both will benifit equally from the same buffs. That means (given the same natural rolls) that a dwarf will always be +4 Con ahead of the elf. While the Cha penalty might be a bit of a downer for the wild empathy, it's no real big deal. The only animals you truely care about are your animal companion and your summons, which you already have full control over. The only other downside I can think of for a dwarf is losing the darkvision when you wildshape. By far, a druid's most important stat is Wis, and Con is the next most important. Once you hit 5th level, the others are largely irrelevent.
turalisj 10-15-08, 10:17 PM	One thing about the Cha penalty- Ego Whip or Cha destroying poison. If any enemy happens to have either on hand, or the party psion/rogue happens to get peeved because of the glory hogging, you'll be reduced to a quivering mass. It doesn't matter HOW much of a fortitude bonus you have either. Sure, the bonus to CON and the dwarven poison resistance might help for the poison, but it wont do anything for the ego whip.
kyletheok 10-15-08, 10:37 PM	Dude! have you guys looked at jungle halflings? (UA) They are crazy! Even dwarfs dont get prof. with 3 martial weapons, without taking a level. A jungle halfling rouge, with the halfling rouge racial level variant would kick a dwarf and elves butt at the same time. (i.e. at level one it deals an extra 1d6 with ranged sneak making it 2d6) so while your characters have an animal companion and -2 cha, a halfling, with rapid shot and a long bow does 3d6 per hit (2 hits) dishing out a total of 6d6 damage at first level. that averages to 21 damage, which easily kills any character at level 1. Case closed, Jungle Halflings will fill you with arrows and sneak attack. Sorry everyone, but halflings win.:king:
TheAntiTroll 10-16-08, 10:43 AM	Its true that their con penalty can really hurt them, and if I was to choose a druid class, I probably wouldn't choose either of those races. I would probably go with Forest Gnome and take mounted combat feats to ride a dire boar animal companion into battle.... Yeah.. shweeet. But back to the topic at hand, The con penalty can be easily bypassed in this case because the Druid recieves alot of long lasting buff spells(Bears endurance for one) and healing spells. And Druids can be specced to be either melee focused or ranged focused. If your gonna go for a long distance spell caster, Elves will hold the advantage. But I'm willing to concede to the fact that without careful and painstakingly painful planning ahead of time, 99% of encounters will end up being melee focused mainly. So I guess it just depends on what kind of characters you want. I chose elves as the winner mainly because of the fact that nature is their whole niche. I said Epic win because it was an epic battle. Bear's Endurance = 1 minute a level, made obsolete after a bit by this neat thing called level appropriate treasure. Irrelevant. Healing spells not named Heal are a trap in combat, and having lower HP increases the chance you will simply die, range or no range. Lower saves in one of the two categories that matter don't help either. If you are going to go for a long distance spellcaster the guy with a bonus and no meaningful drawback wins over the guy with a drawback and no meaningful bonus. In other words, Dwarf boy Wild Shaped into a bird or something. Focusing on melee simply amplifies the effect. Fluff is meaningless to power (also note how elves go on about Wizard this, Wizard that, but aren't any better at being Wizards than humans or dwarves and could easily be argued to be worse). The Psion is almost as strong as you are. He can keep up. If the Rogue tries a betrayal, he's outclassed. Also see immunity to poison. And the fact poisons have extremely low DCs unless the source is a high HD poisonous creature with high Con. Congrats, Rogue wastes cash on overpriced consumables. Then becomes bear chow. Yum.