Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GnomeBerserker 09-11-07, 04:23 PM	If I remember correctly, this what the hobgoblin gets as its racial stats: *+2 Dex, +2 Con *Humanoid (goblinoid) *Medium-sized: base speed 30 ft *Darkvision 60 ft. *+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks According to the MM, that's enough for ECL +1. I'm inclined to agree and disagree at the same time. Despite a staggering lack of racial skills/abilities (other than stat bonuses) they seem just a tad stronger than the PHB races (what class/build doesn't find Dex and Con handy?). However, they lack quite the punch of the "deserving" ECL +1 races (I find the planetouched to be good examples). What can we do bring them down to ECL 0? P.S. Since hobgoblins and goblins in general don't have a lot of flavor behind them feel free to give them some if it justifies some racial skills/abilities.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-11-07, 04:40 PM	Personally I use them as LA +0. But if you want to bump them up to a good +1, I'd add +2 STR and the ability to treat all fixed numerical bonuses from Fighter only feats as one higher. WF would be +2, WS +3 and so on.
StevenO 09-11-07, 07:26 PM	I'd allow a PC to play one at LA +0 but they'd take 4 points from their point buy for stats. It is still easy enough to get a net stat gain as anyone can use DEX and CON that putting a 13 or 14 in one or both shouldn't be problematic.
RobbyPants 09-12-07, 01:51 PM	What can we do bring them down to ECL 0? In my game, that's how I run them. No change at all except to the printed level adjustment.
pres_man 09-12-07, 04:52 PM	+2 Con, -2 Cha instead of +2 Con, +2 Dex Done.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-12-07, 04:55 PM	+2 Con, -2 Cha instead of +2 Con, +2 Dex Done. But then they suck. Just compare them to a dwarf. Same stat mods, way inferior misc abilities.
1 ton ghost 09-12-07, 05:14 PM	this is a good idea btw to everyone involved. -'bout that dwarf comparison, not too many dwarves w/ 30ft. -having a Move Silent buff and Darkvision makes for the groundwork of a deadly rogue. i never did get the Dex bonus on HB, regular goblin, sure, but hey, don't look a gift horse in the mouth i guess. i suppose you could argue the social problems inherant w/ playing a race that routinely is hated/reviled might negate the LA for all the static you'll get at most cities and the like. still, they're right on that cusp LA 0/1. hard to gauge
ArochanoX 09-13-07, 01:36 AM	To make them reasonably +1 LA, add some more ability modifiers. They're combat tacticians, so maybe even +2 Int could be useful. But to make it LA 0, you must add penalties. Ability score bonuses and penalties must end up to 0 or some negative number. +4 doesn't work for LA +0. Not in any way imaginable. You can of course then add some skill bonuses and such, but be careful with them. If you imposed a -2 Cha and -2 Wis to them and then gave them +1 skill point per level (4 at level 1) or one skill form the following list that is always a class skill and always has maximum skill points: knowledge (dungeoneering), knowledge (architecture and engineering), knowledge (nature), survival, heal, handle animal. Something like that. Know that making creatures worse is much harder than making them stronger.
runestar 09-13-07, 01:58 AM	You could take away their 1st lv feat - that should make them LA+1 just nicely...
RobbyPants 09-13-07, 09:46 AM	But to make it LA 0, you must add penalties. Ability score bonuses and penalties must end up to 0 or some negative number. +4 doesn't work for LA +0. Not in any way imaginable. You can of course then add some skill bonuses and such, but be careful with them. I agree that having +2 Dex, +2 Con with no penalties is more powerful than if you add the penalties, but it doesn't really solve that much. I think as soon as you add in +2 X stat, any race immediately becomes unbalanced. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you keep the modifiers fairly small. It is a nice way to mechaincally enforce flavor. The issue here is that (in the long run) 95%+ of what defines a character is his class. Race matters very little, especially beyond low levels. When a player is making a character, I think they have a tendancy to think of what class(es) they want first, and add in the race as an after-thought. So, if you want to play a fighter/barbarian type, you probably won't select a grey elf (-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int) unless you're looking for a unique PC to roleplay. Likewise, if you're looking to make a wizard, that grey elf will look pretty attractive. Is the grey elf broken? No. Just shoe horned into a few particular roles, given two -2 penalties. The bonus you get on an ability score is worth far more than any penalty to offset it. Players will naturally try to play on a races' strengths while masking it's weaknesses. Sure, the grey elf takes a hit to Str and Con, but the player will do his best to keep that character out of melee. The +2 Dex, +2 Int will come into play far more often than the -2 Str, -2 Con. For this reason, I do not feel that simply slapping one or two -2 penalties on hobgoblins will fix the problem. All it will do is shoe-horn them into a particular role. Right now, they make a pretty good anything, as they have no penalties. If you give them -2 Wis, -2 Cha, people will just not play spontaneous or divine casters. They will be just as powerful as fighters, rogues, and wizards. They effectively lose very little, if you're careful to mask the penalties. Seriously, I say don't bother changing them and drop them to LA +0. They're not as powerful as they seem.
Nirid 09-13-07, 09:58 AM	So their stats are unbalanced. So what? In this case it's not like they have anything else except for 2 skill mods. No special abilites, no unique traits, nothing else. Whoever designed ECL saw "unbalanced stats" and threw the +1 ECL on their ala Savage Species without actually comparing them to PHB PC race. I play them at ECL 0 and nothing terrible has come from it yet. They aren't overshadowing the party of regular race PCs. Infact they are less noticeable as their lack of unique traits means they never have a problem where someone goes "man good thing Bill was a hobgoblin or we would have never done x". Not like elves, dwarves, or even gnomes. PS. Dwarfs are a bad racial power bench mark as they are very poorly balanced.
Return of the Flumph 09-13-07, 10:01 AM	My LA+0 hobgoblin. In order to keep their hardiness while getting rid of the +4 ability mod, I gave them the Toughness feat to replace the +2 con. Hobgoblin -Medium humanoid (goblinoid). -Darkvision: 60. -Ability scores: +2 dexterity, -2 wisdom. Hobgoblins are eerily graceful, but also arrogant and overconfident. -Toughness: hobgoblins gain Toughness as a bonus feat. -Skill bonuses: +4 Move Silently. -Hobgoblins gain a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls against elves. -Automatic languages: Common, Goblin. -Bonus languages: Dwarven, Orcish, Elvish, Undercommon.
RobbyPants 09-13-07, 12:11 PM	My LA+0 hobgoblin. In order to keep their hardiness while getting rid of the +4 ability mod, I gave them the Toughness feat to replace the +2 con. Hobgoblin -Medium humanoid (goblinoid). -Darkvision: 30. -Ability scores: +2 dexterity, -2 wisdom. Hobgoblins are eerily graceful, but also arrogant and overconfident. -Toughness: hobgoblins gain Toughness as a bonus feat. -Skill bonuses: +2 Move Silently and Hide. -Automatic languages: Common, Goblin. -Bonus languages: Dwarven, Orcish, Elvish, Undercommon. The Toughness feat is actually a pretty nice way to pull the Con mod out while still retaining the flavor. I'd recommend keeping the Move Silently at +4. It's something all goblinoids get (including bugbears). The only problem I have with it is that with "balanced" ability scores (+2 Dex, -2 Wis), they get surprisingly little in compensation. +2 to two Skills and Darkvision is pretty weak compensation, and they end up just barely ahead of halforcs (a terrible benchmark). Still, I like the way you pulled the Con mod down while still retaining the flavor. The trick to "balancing" LA +0 hobgoblins isn't in adding racial ability penalties, but in reducing the bonuses. As I mentioned in my last post, adding negatives to balance the positives only shoe-horns the race, it doesn't actually lower it's power any.
EvilVegan 09-13-07, 12:39 PM	Adding negatives to balance the positives only shoe-horns the race, it doesn't actually lower it's power any.Adding negatives to positives doesn't balance? I'm pretty sure that's the definition of balancing. You could always run them through the ECL calculator in my SIG. . . . it gives standard hobgoblins no LA. But then I put a creature with a 99 strength in and it said it was ECL 9. . .
RobbyPants 09-13-07, 01:04 PM	Adding negatives to positives doesn't balance? I'm pretty sure that's the definition of balancing. It balances in so much that 2 + (-2) = 0, yes, but it doesn't fix the game balance issues. I'll repost one of my earlier posts to reitterate. I agree that having +2 Dex, +2 Con with no penalties is more powerful than if you add the penalties, but it doesn't really solve that much. I think as soon as you add in +2 X stat, any race immediately becomes unbalanced. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you keep the modifiers fairly small. It is a nice way to mechaincally enforce flavor. The issue here is that (in the long run) 95%+ of what defines a character is his class. Race matters very little, especially beyond low levels. When a player is making a character, I think they have a tendancy to think of what class(es) they want first, and add in the race as an after-thought. So, if you want to play a fighter/barbarian type, you probably won't select a grey elf (-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int) unless you're looking for a unique PC to roleplay. Likewise, if you're looking to make a wizard, that grey elf will look pretty attractive. Is the grey elf broken? No. Just shoe horned into a few particular roles, given two -2 penalties. The bonus you get on an ability score is worth far more than any penalty to offset it. Players will naturally try to play on a races' strengths while masking it's weaknesses. Sure, the grey elf takes a hit to Str and Con, but the player will do his best to keep that character out of melee. The +2 Dex, +2 Int will come into play far more often than the -2 Str, -2 Con. For this reason, I do not feel that simply slapping one or two -2 penalties on hobgoblins will fix the problem. All it will do is shoe-horn them into a particular role. Right now, they make a pretty good anything, as they have no penalties. If you give them -2 Wis, -2 Cha, people will just not play spontaneous or divine casters. They will be just as powerful as fighters, rogues, and wizards. They effectively lose very little, if you're careful to mask the penalties. Seriously, I say don't bother changing them and drop them to LA +0. They're not as powerful as they seem. The thing is that, if you add some penalties to the hobgobling to mathematically balance out the abilitiy modifiers, it doesn't change the power level of the race, but rather, limits its scope. I'll use the example that I quoted earlier - using -2 Wis and -2 Cha to balance +2 Dex and +2 Con. Yes, the ability mods add up to 0 now, but the +2 to Dex and Con are still there. Obviously, a player playing this modified hobgoblin will feel a bit of sting if they play a bard, cleric, druid, paladin, or sorcerer. -2 to Wis and Cha will effect all of these classes. But what about the fighter? He still gets his +2 Dex and Con, and the -2 Wis and Cha are next to meaningless. About the worst thing that happens to him is he gets a net -1 on his Will saves. Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues, and Wizards lose little or nothing with these stats. Monks and Rangers will have a bit of choosing to do, as they get good benifits balanced by drawbacks. The point I'm trying to make is that people will most likely choose their class ahead of their race, and pick a race to further their class selection. So if you want to play a fighter, hobgoblin is really just as viable of a choice with or without the stat penalties in that you gain everything and lose nothing. Yeah, the modified hobgoblin would suck as a sorcerer, so who's going to play one? Nobody (barring odd choices made for RP reasons). So, at the end of the day, all that's limited is the scope of what classes people will play when they play a hobgoblin. Adding penalties won't reduce it's power. To do that, you need to remove bonuses.
EvilVegan 09-13-07, 03:17 PM	It balances in so much that 2 + (-2) = 0, yes, but it doesn't fix the game balance issues. I'll repost one of my earlier posts to reitterate. The thing is that, if you add some penalties to the hobgobling to mathematically balance out the abilitiy modifiers, it doesn't change the power level of the race, but rather, limits its scope. I'll use the example that I quoted earlier - using -2 Wis and -2 Cha to balance +2 Dex and +2 Con. Yes, the ability mods add up to 0 now, but the +2 to Dex and Con are still there. Obviously, a player playing this modified hobgoblin will feel a bit of sting if they play a bard, cleric, druid, paladin, or sorcerer. -2 to Wis and Cha will effect all of these classes. But what about the fighter? He still gets his +2 Dex and Con, and the -2 Wis and Cha are next to meaningless. About the worst thing that happens to him is he gets a net -1 on his Will saves. Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues, and Wizards lose little or nothing with these stats. Monks and Rangers will have a bit of choosing to do, as they get good benifits balanced by drawbacks. The point I'm trying to make is that people will most likely choose their class ahead of their race, and pick a race to further their class selection. So if you want to play a fighter, hobgoblin is really just as viable of a choice with or without the stat penalties in that you gain everything and lose nothing. Yeah, the modified hobgoblin would suck as a sorcerer, so who's going to play one? Nobody (barring odd choices made for RP reasons). So, at the end of the day, all that's limited is the scope of what classes people will play when they play a hobgoblin. Adding penalties won't reduce it's power. To do that, you need to remove bonuses.So half-elves shoud get +2 dex and half-orcs shouldn't get any penalties? Look at the opposite side of the argument. If you have a race with +2 to Dex/Con and no penalties, vs other races that do have penalties or no bonuses, you're going to sway people who pick any class to play a certain race. Either way it leads certain races to favor certain classes. For instance, who is going to play an elf rogue over a hobgoblin rogue (except as you said, for strange RPing purposes). Hobgoblin rogue has better vision for better scouting, better hiding (+5 move silently after dex bump, thanks!), and better hit points, while having the same dex. He loses sword and bow proficiency, OH NO! Who is going to play a half-orc barbarian, when a hobgoblin barbarian is better? A dwarf? Why play any core race over a hobgoblin as a caster? Constitution and Dex are usually very high on any caster's list, and any other racial abilities are nearly pointless for those classes. The only useful ones are gnome +1 illusion DC and maybe sword/bow proficiency of elves (not very useful). The only race that remotely competes with a no LA hobgoblin in being "best for anything" is a human. And that's only because a feat and skill points are typically good. If you're running an all hobgoblin campaign it's fine, but they're powerful. Constitution is good for every class, dexterity is good for every class, darkvision is good for every class.
RobbyPants 09-13-07, 03:37 PM	So half-elves shoud get +2 dex and half-orcs shouldn't get any penalties? Look at the opposite side of the argument. If you have a race with +2 to Dex/Con and no penalties, vs other races that do have penalties or no bonuses, you're going to sway people who pick any class to play a certain race. What I'm trying to say is that the penalties won't reduce the power of the hobgoblin, but rather its scope. I have no problem with a hobgoblin fix that would remove one bonus, so long as they get compensated with some decent miscelaneous bonuses (Skill checks, +1 to hit against elves, or what have you). I was mainly trying to state that I don't think a blanket -2 X and -2 Y balance out the +2 Dex and +2 Con. It just limits hobgoblin's choices. For instance, who is going to play an elf rogue over a hobgoblin rogue (except as you said, for strange RPing purposes). Hobgoblin rogue has better vision for better scouting, better hiding (+5 move silently after dex bump, thanks!), and better hit points, while having the same dex. He loses sword and bow proficiency, OH NO! Elves don't make particularly good rogues to begin with. Perhaps a better benchmark would be a halfling (or perhaps even a goblin; all the benifits of small size and the speed of a medium creature). Who is going to play a half-orc barbarian, when a hobgoblin barbarian is better? A dwarf? Actually, I feel a half-orc barbarian is equally viable as a hobgobin barbarian. +2 Str is pretty nice. Granted, the hobgoblin gets a total of +6 on his overall racial mods in comparision, but the half-orc won't feel too much sting from his -2 Int, -2 Cha. Why play any core race over a hobgoblin as a caster? Constitution and Dex are usually very high on any caster's list, and any other racial abilities are nearly pointless for those classes. The only useful ones are gnome +1 illusion DC and maybe sword/bow proficiency of elves (not very useful). Grey elf? I'd pick -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int over a hobgoblin's mods as a wizard. Again, this comes to masking a races weaknesses with your class choice. The only race that remotely competes with a no LA hobgoblin in being "best for anything" is a human. And that's only because a feat and skill points are typically good. And in many cases, that bonus feat is more versitle. I understand that overall, the +2 Dex and Con are "stronger", but those bonues are static. A hobgoblin is stuck with them. A human can pick a feat (that he qualifies for at first level) to make him better at anything. If you're running an all hobgoblin campaign it's fine, but they're powerful. Constitution is good for every class, dexterity is good for every class, darkvision is good for every class. I do agree that Dex and Con are both stats that are useful to anyone. Unless you're a melee tank that won't be able to use your wonderful Dex bonus to AC, every character will see a benifit. Still, if you "balance" it with -2 X and -2 Y, you still end up with a character that has a bonus in these to stats. And as I've said several times, whatever two abilities get hit with the nerf stick, the players will just select a class that isn't hurt too much by those penalties. I do feel that hobgoblins (as is) are a bit on the powerful side, but there's no way I'd call them LA +1. At most they're something like LA +0.25. Now it seems that WotC chose to round the LA's up to the nearest whole number in this case. Still, I can't say that I wouldn't give the dwarf or the gnome about the same LA +0.25.
EvilVegan 09-13-07, 03:56 PM	<----- If you didn't notice, please take note of my picture. Goblins make better rogues than anyone except whisper gnomes. Actually goblins are pretty much the best race ever. That being said, I think elven rogues are much better than halflings. Low-light vision is nothing to scoff at when scouting (it will be even better in 4e I think). All things being equal an elf is more dextrous than a halfling (reduce an elf and you've got +4 dex, -2 str, -2 con). Granted halflings are better at athletics, which compensates for their str penalty (+1 to jump & climb WOOT!). And saves are nice. Halflings are my 3rd favorite race (goblin, gnome, halfling). I just personally think enhanced vision and awareness is better for a rogue than +1 saves. Of course being reduced is a great boon. Reduced goblins ftw. As for hobgoblins. . . do what you want. I agree that stat penalties encourage people to play certain races with certain classes, I just don't automatically see that as a bad thing. If you want to make it fair, just remove all stat penalties and give humans a floating +2. I play with 32 or 36 point buy anyway, so stat modifiers rarely affect anything except upper limits and that only affects the first few levels. Race is really unimportant in the long run.
RobbyPants 09-13-07, 04:02 PM	Goblins make better rogues than anyone except whisper gnomes. Actually goblins are pretty much the best race ever. Note the avatar ;) I think Return of the Flumph was onto something for reducing the power level of hobgobins though. I like the idea of dropping out the +2 Con and giving them Toughness. A lot of the same fluff is preserved, but it takes them down a slight notch. He suggested giving them -2 Wis. Again, I don't think that the -2 Wis will lower their power, but I could see trying to work it in from an RP standpoint (arrogance and over-confidnece). After all this, I think they need a couple minor boosts to make them more unique. The +4 Move Siliently is a goblinoid trademark. Darkvision is pretty much a must. Still (espescially after dropping out the +2 Con, and possibly adding the -2 Wis), I think there's room for something like +2 Profession(Siege Engineering) (or whatever the name is for that profession) and +1 to hit against elves. Somthing like that I think is enough to remove that fractional +0.25 LA while maintaining the flavor of the race. I just feel it's more complicated than simply matching +2 X with -2 Y.
Arakano 09-13-07, 04:13 PM	IMHO, I already saw a post which I would take as a very good solution: just remove the +2 con but add toughness as a bonus feat. Voila. I would say this alone is enough to make them balanced. They are then maybe somewhat worse for some roles in comparison to stronger PHB standard races (IMO, that would be halflings and dwarves), but then again not really worse than, say, gnomes or elves or half-orcs. Or just go with RP-penalities, something which is often enough not considered at all. Sure, the half-orc gets -2 to charisma already, but on top of that, he might be attacked on sight in many campaigns by dwarves or elves. A pureblood hobgoblin might get it even worse - compare it to the reactions to Drizzt at the beginning of his saga. After all, the hobgoblins are about as popular with other races as iron-fisted fascist invaders were/are in our world, I'd suppose... :(
Dog_O_War 09-13-07, 06:08 PM	Hobgoblins (I mis-spell it "hobo-goblin" all the time) are a tricky one eh? too good to be LA+0 and kinda weak in comparison to other LA+1 races... they fall into a 'level' crevass there. Because of their no penalties, all bonuses lean, this makes them LA+1 in my opinion. But for the players this does make them kinda crappy for a chooseable race. Maybe (as hobgoblins are generally considered monsters) when a player wants to be one, they are LA+0, becasue of campaign and social negatives, like a -1 campaign penalty to diplomacy, gather information, and bluff checks, as well as having a base NPC reaction of unfriendly while in 'standard race' lands. This could be hostile for dwarven lands given that they are goblinoids. I'm not saying this should be the standard, just something for people to use as a start. I use hobgoblins in my own game, and I haven't decided what to do with them yet either.
Return of the Flumph 09-13-07, 06:56 PM	Kay, I increased the darkvision to 60 ft and I shuffled the +2 to Hide and Move Silently into +4 MS, no Hide. +1 to hit against elves is a great idea, I'll add it now. Also, for those who believe it's not enough, keep in mind that the wisdom penalty means -1 to will saves. Since a hobgoblin's favored class is Fighter, wich means bad will saves to begin with, this is actually quite an Achilles Heel.
Novem 09-13-07, 07:21 PM	Don't do -2 to any mental stat- Hobgoblins are tactical geniuses, remember? Dropping +2 Con and adding toughness is cool. If you're going to do the whole thing, leave them with no bonuses nor penalties, Toughness, +4 to Move Silently and Hide, +1 +1/5 levels to all Fighter Bonus feat bonuses, and leave it at that.
Return of the Flumph 09-13-07, 07:47 PM	Don't do -2 to any mental stat- Hobgoblins are tactical geniuses, remember? Dropping +2 Con and adding toughness is cool. If you're going to do the whole thing, leave them with no bonuses nor penalties, Toughness, +4 to Move Silently and Hide, +1 +1/5 levels to all Fighter Bonus feat bonuses, and leave it at that. You can be a tactical genius and still be weak willed. Combat strategy is probably a Knowledge or Proffession skill, which is intelligence based. Low wisdom does not impair their tactical ability, and I think it matches their fluff fairly well. As for the convoluted and previously unknown feat bonuses you propose...what?
Novem 09-13-07, 08:15 PM	The bonuses scale by level-add a bit of strength to the failing Fighter. Low Wisdom means that a Hobgoblin commander is easily fooled, tricked, and, in short, gullible. No bonuses or penalties makes sense to me.
Return of the Flumph 09-13-07, 11:45 PM	The bonuses scale by level-add a bit of strength to the failing Fighter. Low Wisdom means that a Hobgoblin commander is easily fooled, tricked, and, in short, gullible. No bonuses or penalties makes sense to me. You could just as easily say that a dwarven commander can never get his troops to listen to him because of his -2 charisma. I gave hobgoblins low wisdom because I see them as pompous, overconfident, short sighted, intolerant, self righteous, imperialist jerks. The low wisdom reflects their arrogance, failure to think in the longterm, narcissism, and various other unlikable qualities. True, it does mean that they are a little easier to fool. I would explain that in game by saying that their haughtiness prevents them from realizing that other creatures can trick them. Anyway, its a -1 penalty to Sense Motive, which is the skill you seem worried about. -1 does indeed make a difference, but saying that all hobgoblins are gullible fools because of it is like saying all dwarves are constantly screaming at each other because of their charisma penalty.
Illithid_Tentacles 09-14-07, 12:57 AM	They're LA +0. They get a +2 to Con and Dex and no penalties to anything? So what? Humans get a free feat, thier level +3 free skll points, AMD favored class: any, and yet you don't see people going "HOLY SH*T WTF WHY THE **** AREN'T HUMANS LA +1???????????"
Return of the Flumph 09-14-07, 01:21 AM	They're LA +0. They get a +2 to Con and Dex and no penalties to anything? So what? Humans get a free feat, thier level +3 free skll points, AMD favored class: any, and yet you don't see people going "HOLY SH*T WTF WHY THE **** AREN'T HUMANS LA +1???????????" Yes. And the fact that hobbos are more powerful than humans (in all likelihood the toughest PHB race) means that they could use a slight nerf.
ArochanoX 09-14-07, 04:40 AM	Nirid: So their stats are unbalanced. So what? In this case it's not like they have anything else except for 2 skill mods. No special abilites, no unique traits, nothing else. Whoever designed ECL saw "unbalanced stats" and threw the +1 ECL on their ala Savage Species without actually comparing them to PHB PC race. I play them at ECL 0 and nothing terrible has come from it yet. They aren't overshadowing the party of regular race PCs. Infact they are less noticeable as their lack of unique traits means they never have a problem where someone goes "man good thing Bill was a hobgoblin or we would have never done x". Not like elves, dwarves, or even gnomes. The trick of stat modifiers is that they affect reguralily. For example a dwarf wanders in a cave and notices a stonework trap because of his stonecunning. It's a noticeable, bright moment. Or a gnome that uses one of his spell-like abilities when the party wizard is out of spells. It's a noticeable, bright moment. The +2 Dex and +2 Con that the hobgoblin has affect at every hit (or miss) the hobgoblin takes. They aren't seen. They just disappear behind the AC, hit points, reflex saves whatelse. But it's still +5% chance of not being hit every single time the hobgoblin is attacked. +5% chance to take half damage from the fireball. +5% chance to hit with the longbow. +20% hit points every level (assuming d10 HD low average). It matters. Every single time, but it isn't seen as much as a +2 Diplomacy from half-elves, because diplomacy is used more rarely than +2 bonus on dex and con. Changing +2 Con for toughness is reasonable and a good idea. But the dex bonus should still be countered. I've never seen an official +0 LA race that had a positive total ability modifier. -2 Wis or -2 Cha looks nice.
RobbyPants 09-14-07, 10:11 AM	You can be a tactical genius and still be weak willed. Combat strategy is probably a Knowledge or Proffession skill, which is intelligence based. Low wisdom does not impair their tactical ability, and I think it matches their fluff fairly well. Actually, Profession is Widsom based :P [/NITPICK] Changing +2 Con for toughness is reasonable and a good idea. But the dex bonus should still be countered. I've never seen an official +0 LA race that had a positive total ability modifier. -2 Wis or -2 Cha looks nice. I could see a Wis penalty for RP reasons if someone wanted to argue it, but there's no way I'd throw on a -2 Cha. It seems the Cha penalty is too loosely thrown around regarding races-that-don't-look-like-humans. Still, as Return of the Flumph originally suggested, I like the idea of swapping +2 Con out for Toughness. The flavor is preserved, but the power level is brought down. As for adding -2 to any mental stat, as I stated earlier, this won't weaken the hobgoblin, but rather, limit its scope. Out of all the mental stats, the only one that will have a serious mechanical impact is Wis (which is the only one of the three I see actually reducing the hobgoblin's power in any real way). Any Cha penalty would only serve to limit them to non-paladin, non-bard, and non-sorcerer roles. Any class that doesn't use Cha for any class abilites will feel no sting whatsoever from a Cha penalty, so they'll be just as powerful. In the end, I would say if it makes you feel better, throw on -2 Wis to "balance out" the +2 Dex, but that's the only viable option I see (in terms of applying a -2 penalty).
pres_man 09-14-07, 11:05 AM	As for adding -2 to any mental stat, as I stated earlier, this won't weaken the hobgoblin, but rather, limit its scope. Out of all the mental stats, the only one that will have a serious mechanical impact is Wis (which is the only one of the three I see actually reducing the hobgoblin's power in any real way). Actually Int, would be a pretty big hit as well. Considering fighter is the hobgoblin's favored class, a class already pathetically low in skill points. Also fighters get lots of combat feats, yet many of those have minimum Int prerequisites. Int also hits starting languages (a minor issue perhaps). Any Cha penalty would only serve to limit them to non-paladin, non-bard, and non-sorcerer roles. Any class that doesn't use Cha for any class abilites will feel no sting whatsoever from a Cha penalty, so they'll be just as powerful. Or any type of leadership role. In the end, I would say if it makes you feel better, throw on -2 Wis to "balance out" the +2 Dex, but that's the only viable option I see (in terms of applying a -2 penalty). Actually the -2 Cha would balance it nicely with respect to the PHB races. Who really cares about "balance" in general, the question is it balanced against the other races, and a +2 Dex -2 Cha would be balanced with the other PHB races.
Return of the Flumph 09-14-07, 11:36 AM	I really don't think a charisma penalty would be a good idea (too often used), and an intelligence penalty would be anathema to my image of hobgoblins as cunning, insidious conquerors. I think wisdom works best for both flavor and balance.
RobbyPants 09-14-07, 11:53 AM	Actually the -2 Cha would balance it nicely with respect to the PHB races. Who really cares about "balance" in general, the question is it balanced against the other races, and a +2 Dex -2 Cha would be balanced with the other PHB races. You actually make a very good point here. So much of my +2 X, -2 Y focus has been in response to people wanting to reduce the power of hobgoblins. I guess when you think about it, all of the PHB races (with ability adjustments) have their power increased with +2 X and their scope decreased with -2 Y. As Return of the Flumph suggested, I'd put in my vote for -2 Wis. Actually, just for the helluvit, I'll submit my "fix" here too: +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Hobgoblins receive Toughness as a bonus feat. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against elves. +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. +2 racial bonus on Profession(Siege Engineering). +2 racial bonus on Knowledge(History). Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. Favored Class: Fighter. Level adjustment +0. I can't remember the exact name of that Profession, but I'm pretty sure I remember 'Siege Engineering' being mentioned in some book (Complete Warrior?). It's a fairly minor addition, mainly for fluff. I like the idea of the Knowledge(History), mainly to represent knowledge of tactics or war. I seem to remember those being lumped into 'History'.
Return of the Flumph 09-14-07, 12:01 PM	+2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Hobgoblins receive Toughness as a bonus feat. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against elves. +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. +2 racial bonus on Profession(Siege Engineering). +2 racial bonus on Knowledge(History). Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. Favored Class: Fighter. Level adjustment +0. I can't remember the exact name of that Profession, but I'm pretty sure I remember 'Siege Engineering' being mentioned in some book (Complete Warrior?). It's a fairly minor addition, mainly for fluff. I like the idea of the Knowledge(History), mainly to represent knowledge of tactics or war. I seem to remember those being lumped into 'History'. That looks really good. In fact, I'll probably use it; it has all the same crunch as my draft, but adds a lot of flavor with the History and Siege Technician skills.
EvilVegan 09-14-07, 12:18 PM	I really like it too. Helps if you have set rules for siege warfare :P But that being said, hobgoblins are still goblinoids, meaning that I think they'd think more like ninja warlords and less in siege warfare. Meaning they'd go for skirmish (not the class ability) tactics and night strikes, blocking supply lines, etc. But I don't know what skill would represent this proficiency.
Return of the Flumph 09-14-07, 12:28 PM	I really like it too. Helps if you have set rules for siege warfare :P But that being said, hobgoblins are still goblinoids, meaning that I think they'd think more like ninja warlords and less in siege warfare. Meaning they'd go for skirmish (not the class ability) tactics and night strikes, blocking supply lines, etc. But I don't know what skill would represent this proficiency. Move Silently, but they already have +4 to that. True, goblinoids prefer stealth and guerrilla combat. But they-especially hobbos-also need to conquer cities during their times of expansion. Thus, while they are better at ninja fighting out in the plains, it is reasonable for them to know their way around a catapult.
Wih 10-01-07, 03:01 AM	One of the players in my Ebberon game got reincarnated into a Hobgoblin (Warblade, use to be a Valenar Elf). I decided that the flavour fit (Hobgoblins always struck me as being very Tome of Battle, and being Mongol-ish cavalry), but the stats were crap, so I added in a bit here and there. Here's what I added: +2 racial bonus on saves vs Fear +4 racial bonus on Ride checks +2 racial bonus on Knowledge: History for military related purposes (battle tactics etc) +1 initiator level (which in hindsight was a tad powerful, giving access to higher level maneuvers quicker). It was a bit of a quick fix, but it worked. Mind you, the player (due to IC reasons) has switched bodies again, so I cant verify for how powerful it is in higher level games (Played the race from levels 4-8).