ecl for half golems? [Archive] - Wizards Community

ecl for half golems? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
athelstan
04-29-07, 03:05 AM I have monster manual 2 but it does not list the ecl for half gomems. does anyone know what the various ecl is for the half golem types listed?
runestar
04-29-07, 07:00 AM No LA was given to them in the update booklet either. I guess half-golems are not meant as PCs, though if your PC could make the will save...:P
Necromas
04-29-07, 07:25 AM I dunno what their CR is, but add 3 to their CR to get the ECL, and then subtract the HD and you'll have your LA. I remember reading somewhere like the SRD or something that was the recommended way to give LA to a no LA monster.

Hm... but then that wouldn't work very well for monsters with way more HD then their CR....
Fallenangel359
04-29-07, 10:56 AM it also doesn't fit quite right for half golems as half golems don't have racial hit dice

Half golems while rediculously strong and tough to kill, had serious psychological problems...
Thomar_of_Uointer
04-29-07, 01:05 PM They don't have any, as they are not meant to be player characters. Didn't the "save or become and NPC" effect give you a hint?
StruckingFuggle
04-29-07, 01:23 PM They don't have any, as they are not meant to be player characters. Didn't the "save or become and NPC" effect give you a hint?

"Save or become npc", implies to me, that if you want to risk bricking your character ... I mean, "save or become npc" is basically, logically, the same thing as "fail or remain pc", no?
penchant
04-29-07, 01:44 PM The way I see it, it is not really a racial template unless you fail your saves, in which case you lose the character. While the bonuses are to drool over, you do not change race or type until you do fail. That makes the whole set up equipment. And equipment only takes gold and XP (or just gold) to procure. Unless and until you fail your save, the process is reversable (with a sharp knife and regeneration spell).

So forget your level adjustment, and simply get the enhancement while in game. Make the rolls and see what happens.
StruckingFuggle
04-29-07, 02:24 PM The way I see it, it is not really a racial template unless you fail your saves, in which case you lose the character. While the bonuses are to drool over, you do not change race or type until you do fail. That makes the whole set up equipment. And equipment only takes gold and XP (or just gold) to procure. Unless and until you fail your save, the process is reversable (with a sharp knife and regeneration spell).

So forget your level adjustment, and simply get the enhancement while in game. Make the rolls and see what happens.

Unless it's at a steeply discounted price, though (and, IIRC, some of the bonuses of the various templates are, by turns, either epic, or not easily priced and w/o regularly comperable magic items) for the risk and the rolls, why not just buy the items outright, then, as items?
penchant
04-29-07, 07:45 PM You can buy them as items. The prices for each limb are clearly priced and all you need is a caster of high enough level to attach them. Technically you don't even need heal as a skill. For instance, while it takes 20,000 gp and 400xp to craft one you should be able to buy one on the market for 40,000gp (double base price, although the XP seems to indicate that most of that is material construction since 400 x 25 is 10,000gp). Once you have it, if your party mage can cast 6th level spells, he just reads the directions and installs it. Its easier to use than grafts are.

In fact, you don't even need all four limbs to get the benefits. Most of the pictures in the MM2 show each one only having two replaced limbs and the rules indicate that only one is necessary to get the bonuses. I would houserule that two are minimum for the bonuses to accure, otherwise it just doesn't work. But that's a house rule. RAW says one.
runestar
04-29-07, 10:11 PM Yeah, I never saw the point of having multiple limbs either. Anyone see the benefit to having them?:confused: Closest thing I can see is that each additional template adds an extra +4con, but is that worth the drawbacks?

And you don't become an NPC if you make the save. Simply tie down with your dm to fudge the die roll and let you pass automatically. End of the day, you would still be paying a fair price for using the half-golem template.:)
turalisj
04-29-07, 10:26 PM You could always use Nightscreamer's rules for automail from FMA.... You want an arm made of mithril? Ok. A pair of adamantine legs to kick that annoying kender in the face? Rules are there for that too.

Now, if I can just find the link...
diphycue
04-30-07, 01:32 AM I could be wrong, but I think I saw them somewhere as a +4 or +6 LA (two different sources)... check Crystal Keep's PDFs.
penchant
04-30-07, 01:57 AM I might agree with a +4 or +6 LA if you didn't suffer -6 to Int and Chr, -2 to dex. While many consider these dump stats, this could likely render you barely above animal intelligence. Most fighter types put a 10 in these which leaves you a 4 after the penalty. While magic immunity sounds good, it doesn't make you immune to magic, just anything that allows SR. It also makes you immune to friendly magic like healing, teleport, any buffer spell, fly, restoration, any form of raise dead / resurrection, etc.
It also makes you automatically vulnerable to at least one spell.

What do you get? Great DR, Great Nat AC, Great Str bonus, one other special ability (breath weapon, weapon immunites), the spell immunity mixed bag.

If you were to add a LA, I would say definitely have no Wisdom save for the process and the limbs are free. I would also soften the mental stat penalties, if not remove them.

For example a Half Celestial (+4 LA) gets Wings, Nat AC, All stats raised by either +2 or +4, A list of spell like abilities and two new ones every other level, SR, DR, ER, save bonuses, magic weapon, darkvision, and some other stuff. This is an overall better template than a half golem.

A Half Ogre / Half Dragon (+5 LA) would get a higher Str than even the Iron Half Golem (+14) almost as much Nat AC (+8), negligible stat penalties, wings, breath weapon, natural attacks +bite, immunities etc.

Just my opinion, but either keep it as is, as equipment or eliminate the penalties and make it a +6 LA.
runestar
04-30-07, 02:38 AM Note that teleport spells bypass sr, but can only work on willing creatures. So half-golems can be teleported. But you are right about the majority of buff/curative spells checking for sr. :(
diphycue
04-30-07, 02:51 AM The problem is, LA tends to only take combat efficacy into account when it's figured. So, a +6 would make sense if the only thing the half-golem is going to do is smash enemies.
turalisj
04-30-07, 07:34 AM http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7186824&postcount=4

Found them rules for automail! :D
penchant
04-30-07, 09:03 AM Note that teleport spells bypass sr, but can only work on willing creatures. So half-golems can be teleported. But you are right about the majority of buff/curative spells checking for sr. :(

Eh, the entry is fuzzy. The way I read it was that the caster suffers no SR since it mentions a range of personal. But the point is clear enough.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
athelstan 04-29-07, 03:05 AM	I have monster manual 2 but it does not list the ecl for half gomems. does anyone know what the various ecl is for the half golem types listed?
runestar 04-29-07, 07:00 AM	No LA was given to them in the update booklet either. I guess half-golems are not meant as PCs, though if your PC could make the will save...:P
Necromas 04-29-07, 07:25 AM	I dunno what their CR is, but add 3 to their CR to get the ECL, and then subtract the HD and you'll have your LA. I remember reading somewhere like the SRD or something that was the recommended way to give LA to a no LA monster. Hm... but then that wouldn't work very well for monsters with way more HD then their CR....
Fallenangel359 04-29-07, 10:56 AM	it also doesn't fit quite right for half golems as half golems don't have racial hit dice Half golems while rediculously strong and tough to kill, had serious psychological problems...
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-29-07, 01:05 PM	They don't have any, as they are not meant to be player characters. Didn't the "save or become and NPC" effect give you a hint?
StruckingFuggle 04-29-07, 01:23 PM	They don't have any, as they are not meant to be player characters. Didn't the "save or become and NPC" effect give you a hint? "Save or become npc", implies to me, that if you want to risk bricking your character ... I mean, "save or become npc" is basically, logically, the same thing as "fail or remain pc", no?
penchant 04-29-07, 01:44 PM	The way I see it, it is not really a racial template unless you fail your saves, in which case you lose the character. While the bonuses are to drool over, you do not change race or type until you do fail. That makes the whole set up equipment. And equipment only takes gold and XP (or just gold) to procure. Unless and until you fail your save, the process is reversable (with a sharp knife and regeneration spell). So forget your level adjustment, and simply get the enhancement while in game. Make the rolls and see what happens.
StruckingFuggle 04-29-07, 02:24 PM	The way I see it, it is not really a racial template unless you fail your saves, in which case you lose the character. While the bonuses are to drool over, you do not change race or type until you do fail. That makes the whole set up equipment. And equipment only takes gold and XP (or just gold) to procure. Unless and until you fail your save, the process is reversable (with a sharp knife and regeneration spell). So forget your level adjustment, and simply get the enhancement while in game. Make the rolls and see what happens. Unless it's at a steeply discounted price, though (and, IIRC, some of the bonuses of the various templates are, by turns, either epic, or not easily priced and w/o regularly comperable magic items) for the risk and the rolls, why not just buy the items outright, then, as items?
penchant 04-29-07, 07:45 PM	You can buy them as items. The prices for each limb are clearly priced and all you need is a caster of high enough level to attach them. Technically you don't even need heal as a skill. For instance, while it takes 20,000 gp and 400xp to craft one you should be able to buy one on the market for 40,000gp (double base price, although the XP seems to indicate that most of that is material construction since 400 x 25 is 10,000gp). Once you have it, if your party mage can cast 6th level spells, he just reads the directions and installs it. Its easier to use than grafts are. In fact, you don't even need all four limbs to get the benefits. Most of the pictures in the MM2 show each one only having two replaced limbs and the rules indicate that only one is necessary to get the bonuses. I would houserule that two are minimum for the bonuses to accure, otherwise it just doesn't work. But that's a house rule. RAW says one.
runestar 04-29-07, 10:11 PM	Yeah, I never saw the point of having multiple limbs either. Anyone see the benefit to having them?:confused: Closest thing I can see is that each additional template adds an extra +4con, but is that worth the drawbacks? And you don't become an NPC if you make the save. Simply tie down with your dm to fudge the die roll and let you pass automatically. End of the day, you would still be paying a fair price for using the half-golem template.:)
turalisj 04-29-07, 10:26 PM	You could always use Nightscreamer's rules for automail from FMA.... You want an arm made of mithril? Ok. A pair of adamantine legs to kick that annoying kender in the face? Rules are there for that too. Now, if I can just find the link...
diphycue 04-30-07, 01:32 AM	I could be wrong, but I think I saw them somewhere as a +4 or +6 LA (two different sources)... check Crystal Keep's PDFs.
penchant 04-30-07, 01:57 AM	I might agree with a +4 or +6 LA if you didn't suffer -6 to Int and Chr, -2 to dex. While many consider these dump stats, this could likely render you barely above animal intelligence. Most fighter types put a 10 in these which leaves you a 4 after the penalty. While magic immunity sounds good, it doesn't make you immune to magic, just anything that allows SR. It also makes you immune to friendly magic like healing, teleport, any buffer spell, fly, restoration, any form of raise dead / resurrection, etc. It also makes you automatically vulnerable to at least one spell. What do you get? Great DR, Great Nat AC, Great Str bonus, one other special ability (breath weapon, weapon immunites), the spell immunity mixed bag. If you were to add a LA, I would say definitely have no Wisdom save for the process and the limbs are free. I would also soften the mental stat penalties, if not remove them. For example a Half Celestial (+4 LA) gets Wings, Nat AC, All stats raised by either +2 or +4, A list of spell like abilities and two new ones every other level, SR, DR, ER, save bonuses, magic weapon, darkvision, and some other stuff. This is an overall better template than a half golem. A Half Ogre / Half Dragon (+5 LA) would get a higher Str than even the Iron Half Golem (+14) almost as much Nat AC (+8), negligible stat penalties, wings, breath weapon, natural attacks +bite, immunities etc. Just my opinion, but either keep it as is, as equipment or eliminate the penalties and make it a +6 LA.
runestar 04-30-07, 02:38 AM	Note that teleport spells bypass sr, but can only work on willing creatures. So half-golems can be teleported. But you are right about the majority of buff/curative spells checking for sr. :(
diphycue 04-30-07, 02:51 AM	The problem is, LA tends to only take combat efficacy into account when it's figured. So, a +6 would make sense if the only thing the half-golem is going to do is smash enemies.
turalisj 04-30-07, 07:34 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7186824&postcount=4 Found them rules for automail! :D
penchant 04-30-07, 09:03 AM	Note that teleport spells bypass sr, but can only work on willing creatures. So half-golems can be teleported. But you are right about the majority of buff/curative spells checking for sr. :( Eh, the entry is fuzzy. The way I read it was that the caster suffers no SR since it mentions a range of personal. But the point is clear enough.