Post/Author/DateTime	Post
runestar 03-22-07, 10:49 AM	Hi all. This is a spillover from another thread debating LA concepts. Basically, I was wondering what powerful races you have all tried so far, and which you felt to be fairly priced. In short, you believed you were getting a fair deal for the ECL you paid, and actual playtest experiences have been favourable. Here is a list somewhat hastily cobbled together for the moment. Feel free to expand on it or critique as you deem fit, though I will appeal to everyone to be as civil as possible, so as to make the discussion as pleasurable to everyone as possible. Revisions will be made to aforementioned list ever so often, as new information becomes available. Let me know if the formatting sucks as well.:p Thank you all in advance for your contributions.:) At first glance...(will update periodically) astral deva (possibly strong backup/support fighter-type) black ethergaunt (decent spellcaster, if you are willing to suck up a LA+3 race for the bonuses) blink dog (blink+dim door as free actions, might make for excellent tactical fighter) bralani (blur+mirror image at will, seems cool, might make for decent support fighter) centaur (good fighter, poster-boy of fair monsterous SS progressions) chain devil??? (grossly high ECL, but 6 chain attacks seem very tempting?) chitine??? (has 4 arms, should excel as MWFer, not sure how it compares with thri-keen though) doppelganger (again, seems useful only in a diplomacy-oriented setting, limited use otherwise) feral (plain broken, not sure if many dms will allow or not) feytouched (decent stat bonuses, immunities, fair LA+1 race) ghaele (great all-round support, tricky to play, but can be quite rewarding) grig (all round good bonuses, makes for good rogue?) grimlock??? (looks like a plausible race for melee types) goliath (excellent fighter, especially when you splash 1 lv of barb) goat folk (seems like a reasonable fighter type at ELC4) gold dragon??? (decent fighter, backup skill monkey/scout?) half-dragon (seems slightly overcosted, but might be useful for fighters at mid lvs) half-fey (con penalty does not mesh well with LA, but the SLAs look very tempting) half-fiend/celestial??? (nice bonuses, but not sure if worth the LA+4) half-giant (seems slightly inferior to goliath, but psionic subtype could prove useful) half-ogre (large, good physical stat bonuses, cheapest large creature, barring half-minotaur) hound archon??? (seems they placed a high premium on aid at will and those auras) janni (not sure about its strengths, but seems like a fun rogue/fighter race) lizardfolk??? (Good NA, albeit at a premium) loxo (good physical stat bonuses, special abilities aren't that useful, though elephants are fun) lumi (weird abilitys, such as immunity to vorpal, but quite useful overall for ECL4 race) maug (good stats, NA, immunities, no con, but should still make a good fighter) mineral warrior (tricky to qualify, but bonuses are possibly quite undercosted) minotaur (great fighter, reflex/will saves) nightmare??? (excellent stats and special abilities, use gloves of man so you can wield weapons) ogre (seems inferior to centaur, but should still make for viable fighter) pixie - LA+4 version (looks like a decent tactical archer/fighter? Low HD, but hard to hit) phrenic (excellent selection of PSAs, possibly the only template with LA<cr...) poisondusk lizardfolk (all-round good abilities, a steal for LA+1) sylph (good sorc, effectively just a LA+1 caster race) succubus (good in a diplomatic setting?) thri-keen (4 arms, king of MWFing, but will need some effort to trick out) treant (good fighter stats, plant immunities, though you are arguably better off with polymorph) troll??? (seems like a good fighter type with enough class lvs) winged (reason why avariel sucks, good flight for LA+2 seems more than fair) worg (cheap ECL, decent stats, use gloves of man to circumvent limitations?)
Zumarai 03-22-07, 10:58 AM	-Drow -Githzerai -Githyanki -Half-Ogre -Planetouched -Treant I'll get back with some more.
Finfreeze 03-22-07, 11:24 AM	LA-Races I think are worth it to an extent without buyoff, from the list of monsters I know: Anthropomorphic Whales Astral Deva Blink Dog Feral Template Ghaele Loxo Lycanthrope (Brown bear, tiger, dire animals of 4-6 HD) Minotaur Nightmare—astral projection and etherealness at will, can reach huge size, 90' (good) flight, 10' reach, +16 str, +2 dex, +10 con, +2 int/wis/cha, reach, permanent concealment from 5', total concealment from 10'+ Phrenic Template Pixie Unbodied (maybe) Winged Template Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game Harpy—2 MH HD, LA +1, nice stats (+6 net), flight, not quite as good as the winged template, but easier to buy off and more apt for the Phrenic template With buy-off, the following races/templates also shine through. They may or may not already be good as-is: Catfolk Grig Half-Dragon Half-Ogre Nixie Worg - Can reach large size (+14 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, -4 Int, +4 Wis), and the LA is easily bought off My opinions on listed races: Doppelganger: In general, I feel the unbodied is a better choice compared to the doppelganger for most situations—better stats, good durability, and manifesting ability. Grig: Main strengths are the fiddle, tiny size, spell-likes, and the gigantic spell resistance. Grimlock: Hopeless against incorporeals. Blindsight can't pick them up. Hound Archon: I'm a bit shaky on this one. LA +5 seems like a huge price for relatively average stats. Janni: Seems a bit overcosted to me, especially since it can't stay around in elemental planes for very long and don't have any "must-have" abilities. Planetouched: Weak for the LA; they would be better off as templates. Oh...playtested. This was all "first glance".
CzarGarrett 03-22-07, 01:11 PM	As a general rule, any starting ECL of +2 or less for melee, +1 or less for casters. Beyond that, I feel like the character will always been weakened, in some area or another, to the point that they become a detriment to the party.
WinterPsionic 03-22-07, 02:22 PM	Worg - Can reach large size (+14 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, -4 Int, +4 Wis), and the LA is easily bought off ...playing as a Worg? Never heard that one before...
Finfreeze 03-22-07, 03:59 PM	Well, worgs can talk, and if you give one the proper class and some gloves of man, you can have a greatsword-wielding worg, as dumb as it sounds, same with a giant eagle/owl or a blink dog. Coincidentally, all of these races are able to communicate through language. A nightmare is automatically proficient with all simple and martial weapons, so you need only the gloves to fight with a decent manufactured weapon. If you can get your hands on some items that duplicate Grip of Iron and Expansion (ML high enough to reach colossal), however, you might be better suited going with gauntlets, grappling, and snatching. Since you can astral project at will, there's no real problem with going all-out offense. Size and squeezing aren't that much of an issue because you have etherealness. If you let them item dupe, nightmares would be the premier item merchants. Buy/find a bunch of magic items, duplicate them, and sell them at reduced prices. After you get a huge wad of money, you can go commission high-level wizards to create awesome magic items for you to sell. Nobody can match a nightmare's production rate, after all. It seems so obvious. Think of the good a one-of-a-kind good nightmare could do for society. Wizard creates some super-duper invention that improves a citizen's/culture's lifestyle, horsey duplicates it, and now everyone has flying cars and magic sinks. An ECL 20 nightmare can carry up to 67,200 pounds of weight (460,800 lbs with expansion) and keep a heavy load, so there's no problem there. So yeah, that's probably why I think Nightmares are pretty good for their ECL.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-22-07, 05:50 PM	I keep using them as an example of LA overcosting, so I'll state it here again: If you reduce the gnoll LA to +0 (leaving them at ECL +2) or drop the two racial hit dice (leaving them at ECL +1), they come out balanced. (Which is to say that compared to a human they'll have an edge in some numbers and be behind in others, but their overall effectiveness will be on par.)
Gharlane 03-22-07, 09:22 PM	I'm playing a Naztharune Rakshasa (MM III) currently at ECL 9 (see the monster class in my signature) and its working out quite well. With the possible exception of the Nymph (her ECL is fine but she needs to change some of those LA into HD) and the Couatl, I think all the mosters in my signature have reasonable ECLs.
Crimson_Concerto 03-22-07, 09:26 PM	I don't have TOO much experience with ECLs, but I will tell you that my experience with Centaurs has been very positive. From what I've seen, they make very good front-line fighters (I observed a Barbarian) and and their abilities synnergize very well with the Monk class (this I played myself).
runestar 03-23-07, 12:44 AM	I was wondering if anyone has any experiences with the following races. Trumpet archon - are the stat bonuses, NA, sr, resistances/immunities, misc special abilities and auras worth an effective LA+6? (Since it has cleric14 spellcasting) Naztharune Rakshasa - at ECL16, it seems I would rather play a straight rogue, but does it offer any strengths over a conventional rogue? Wartroll - cool features, but is it worth the ECL18? Dragonkin - Seems a bit bland for a ECL9, but you get good stats and flight. Oh, and if it is not too much trouble, could you all take the time to briefly illustrate why the choices you have listed make good viable PCs?:) Thanks all.
Poison_Dusk 03-23-07, 01:17 AM	I like the steel predator class made by Gharlane. Also, as my Name would suggest, I really like the Poison Dusk Lizardfolk. I have played them as a druid, a scout, a dragonfire adept, and a dragon shaman. You get a lot for the little +1 LA.
Perun 03-23-07, 03:13 AM	Generally, with the LA buy-off rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), I consider any +1 LA race OK. I've played a couple of thieflings, and my current character is an aasimar. Most of the LA +1 characters in our group were planetouched, but we've had a hobgoblin as well, and although he was played just for a couple of sessions, he wasn't overly underpowered at his LA. LA +2 races are a bit more tricky. They're worth it, but, IMO, if their class synergises with their race. For example, I played a drow wizard in a FR campaign for a short while. Despite his LA, his +2 Int, combined with the Spellcasting Prodigy feat, gave him an effective Int 22 for determining bonus spells. At ECL 3, he had three first-level spells prepared, with a 16 save DC, and he was able to hold his own. I had to be extra careful, though, about getting hit. I think the LA +3 (and greater) races with no racial HD extremely difficult to play. LA 3 and above, with racial HD are playable, but generally within roles pre-determined by their racial (monster?) write-ups. One likely won't play a pixie fighter or a succubus barbarian. Generally, I think most such races (well, fey and outsiders) do well as rogues, provided they don't have an Int penalty (at least, and preferably an Int bonus). But, is LA worth it? From an optimising point of view, probably not. The stuff you get in return generally isn't as good as what you would be getting for playing a LA 0 race. But LA races make for different characters. And the LA buy-off is a must, IMO.
runestar 03-23-07, 07:29 AM	On a side note, do feel free to criticize any of the entries on my list if you have reason to disagree with it for whatever reason. :)
Arem_K 03-23-07, 05:09 PM	LA +2 races are a bit more tricky. They're worth it, but, IMO, if their class synergises with their race. For example, I played a drow wizard in a FR campaign for a short while. Despite his LA, his +2 Int, combined with the Spellcasting Prodigy feat, gave him an effective Int 22 for determining bonus spells. At ECL 3, he had three first-level spells prepared, with a 16 save DC, and he was able to hold his own. I had to be extra careful, though, about getting hit. While I question the value of being a drow at all, I really have to say that being a drow wizard is an incredibly bad choice. You had plus one to your spell DCs for having a high intelligence. A human wizard will have plus one to their DCs because they can cast spells that are a higher level than yours, plus they have more spells and better spells and they are not wandering around at third level with six hp or something.
DarkRhystar 03-23-07, 09:43 PM	While I question the value of being a drow at all, I really have to say that being a drow wizard is an incredibly bad choice. You had plus one to your spell DCs for having a high intelligence. A human wizard will have plus one to their DCs because they can cast spells that are a higher level than yours, plus they have more spells and better spells and they are not wandering around at third level with six hp or something. Generally, with the LA buy-off rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)... LA Buy-off changes the ball-game. Depending on the starting/ending levels and LA, it can actually be more beneficial to play a character with LA in the long run. Going off the UA rules, you can get the benefits of a LA +1 race/template for only 3,000 experience (assuming no Racial HD). LA +2 is an annoying 16,000 experience, but still worthwhile sometimes. Factor in the D&D experience system which provides extra experience to those lower level than the rest of the party and soon you're the same level as everyone else with free bonuses. Does all this make LAs more reasonable? Well no, not really. However it shows that games can be set up where LAs are not a major disadvantage.
Perun 03-24-07, 01:21 PM	While I question the value of being a drow at all, I really have to say that being a drow wizard is an incredibly bad choice. You had plus one to your spell DCs for having a high intelligence. A human wizard will have plus one to their DCs because they can cast spells that are a higher level than yours, plus they have more spells and better spells and they are not wandering around at third level with six hp or something. Well, a LA race is always the worse choice when compared to a LA +0 race. But, even a LA +2 race can be useful and can contribute to the party, provided, as I said, the character's class synergises well with the race. A drow wizard is, IMO, a better choice than a drow cleric or druid, or even sorcerer (even though drow get +2 Cha, sorcerer is already a spell level behind compared to wizard). Drow fighters or barbarians are far behind in their designed roles. It's pertty much rogues (excellent choice with +2 Dex and Int) or wizards for drow, IMO. And like DarkRhystar said, LA buy-off rules change things a lot (even though my drow character died before he could buy even his first LA point off). Regards.
wraithstrike 06-08-08, 02:29 AM	For spellcasting class it is best to use a race that has spellcasting classes built into it like a Rakshasa(sp?) This will minimize spells lost. As for Drow their fluff says good at magic, but due to the LA they would be better used as rogues.
dulsi 06-08-08, 07:21 AM	I'm playing a Naztharune Rakshasa (MM III) currently at ECL 9 (see the monster class in my signature) and its working out quite well. With the possible exception of the Nymph (her ECL is fine but she needs to change some of those LA into HD) and the Couatl, I think all the mosters in my signature have reasonable ECLs. Checked out a couple of monsters in your sig. Naztharune Rakshasa, Couatl and some others are broken.
Ecalsneerg 06-08-08, 08:49 AM	For spellcasting class it is best to use a race that has spellcasting classes built into it like a Rakshasa(sp?) This will minimize spells lost. As for Drow their fluff says good at magic, but due to the LA they would be better used as rogues. In your example, play a drow. The spellcasting lost by a rakshasa far exceeds that of a drow for their ECL.
wraithstrike 06-08-08, 10:11 AM	In your example, play a drow. The spellcasting lost by a rakshasa far exceeds that of a drow for their ECL. I was in the mindset that I was using in the other post that the OP was referring to. By Raw the Rakshasa is not a good caster to play, and is worse than the drow.
wraithstrike 06-08-08, 10:19 AM	Checked out a couple of monsters in your sig. Naztharune Rakshasa, Couatl and some others are broken. At a glance the coutl's many abilites seem to be offset by its poor hp. This one may work as long as it has gear to make sure it does not get hit to often. The Naz seems to fit. It seems about the same an 11th level changling shadowdancer/rogue with less HD. The DR, SR, darkvision, and outsider traits make this one seem about right.
Lancer_Bloodlust 06-08-08, 11:24 AM	Hey guys, quick question. Is it alright to drop racial hit die on a creature and just keep the level adjustment? What exactly, besides feats and skills, do those hit die do for a PC or NPC? And one of my players is playing an Air Genasi with LA +1. Since at low levels the not being able to breath never really came into play and her levitation was only used a couple times, I think it would be better off as a LA +0, along with the Tiefling and Aasimar.
Orion959 06-08-08, 11:44 AM	Hello everyone. I have been playing a Feral War Troll for some time now, and I have to say that he owns everything at his ECL and beyond. Even with a +7 LA, because he has 12HD, he gains all the Feral goodies, and with Improved Natural Attack (claw), he is doing 3d6+Str damage. Then with Rend, and Rake, and Pounce, it's all gravy. His mad grapple bonus means he owns anything within reach that is Medium or smaller, with Regeneration AND fast healing, oh man, it gets better and better. Into Epic, he took Stoneblessed 3; then Dwarf Paragon 3; then Deepwarden 2 for Con to AC; then Survivor 5 for all the crazy goodness of Improved Evasion, DR 5/-, and Improved Uncanny Dodge; and Forsaker for Con to AC as Natural Armor, as well as Slippery Mind, and SR that STACKS with his racial SR 20; With Steadfast Determination, Will saves aren't an issue; he loves being in an antimagic field because all of his abilities are (Ex); etc etc etc... Yeah, Feral War Troll for the 'is the ECL worth it' win!
dulsi 06-08-08, 12:21 PM	At a glance the coutl's many abilites seem to be offset by its poor hp. This one may work as long as it has gear to make sure it does not get hit to often. The Naz seems to fit. It seems about the same an 11th level changling shadowdancer/rogue with less HD. The DR, SR, darkvision, and outsider traits make this one seem about right. You misunderstood what I was writing about. Gharlane said he had a couple savage species-like monster classes in his sig. I took a look at the couatl and naztharune rakshasa but found the links were broken. I wasn't talking about whether their ECL is right or not. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. @Lancer: The racial hit dice are factored in when determining the level adjustment. Some racial hit dice (like monsterous humanoid and outsider) are more beneficial than others. Just droping the racial hit dice and keeping the level adjustment might lead to an unbalanced race.
Lancer_Bloodlust 06-08-08, 12:40 PM	ok thanks dulsi.
key 06-08-08, 03:19 PM	pixie - LA+4 version (looks like a decent tactical archer/fighter? Low HD, but hard to hit) I play a character that is a LA+5 race I created based off the pixie. He is a pretty decent archer, especially since he has Great Flyby Attack. He's hard to hit, but like you said, he's very fragile due to his low hit points. I think the LA +3 (and greater) races with no racial HD extremely difficult to play. LA 3 and above, with racial HD are playable, but generally within roles pre-determined by their racial (monster?) write-ups. One likely won't play a pixie fighter or a succubus barbarian. Generally, I think most such races (well, fey and outsiders) do well as rogues, provided they don't have an Int penalty (at least, and preferably an Int bonus). Yep, my character's a rogue with no INT penalty. In the beginning, he's a little bit behind on the core thief skills, but fully recovers at higher levels.
Zuggster 06-08-08, 04:39 PM	The Mummy from Savage Species is worth it The Mummy from Libris Mortis is not The Update to the 3.5 Mummy in the Monster Manual killed the biggest benefit to the race, Resistant to Blows. With that ability, its worth the LA+5, without it, its not.
StevenO 06-08-08, 07:59 PM	Although it doesn't have any official LA the Necropolitan can be worth dying (and losing that level) to get into.
Slagger the Chuul 06-09-08, 10:17 AM	From personal experience, I can confirm that the half-dragon pays for itself for brute fighter types, with a bit extra if you've got a Large base race. The breath and natural weapons aren't so much to write home about, but the other benefits are good. The high Strength bonus more than pays off the loss of melee attack bonus (though it doesn't help for actual BAB requirements) plus an increase in damage, the boosted Constitution and Hit Dice increase (for most classes, anyway) partly offsets the lost Hit Dice, natural armour toughens you up further, and being able to pick your favourite immunity (or special ability in a few cases) rounds things out. I haven't tried them at particularly low levels, though. My personal rule is to not have more Level Adjustment than Hit Dice. A well-tricked thri-kreen definitely excels at multiweapon fighting, but the main advice here is to get good at rolling quickly, because waiting for someone to make all their attacks in this circumstance is a pain. I've also been lucky enough to try the anthropomorphic giant squid in an aquatic campaign, but I avoided the temptation to take multiple weapons and instead went for a single weapon with an eight-handed grip. I can only guess how horrendous it would be to roll all those multiweapon attacks. The maug is pretty good, but like most nonliving constructs, the lack of standard healing is a pain in both senses.