Elan loop... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elan loop... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Adamaro23
07-25-07, 11:12 PM My cousin keeps telling me that theres a loop with Elan's age...

He says: "since they rebuild their bodies and can technicly live forever and rebuild themselves, elans should not suffer the penalties of old age, but since their mind stays the same they should be able to retain the bonuses granted by old age to Charisma, Wisdom, and Intelligence like a Dragonwrought Kobold does."

I say not, since rebuild does state this, unlike dragonwrought kobold.

Please reply so I can tell him.... he won't believe me.
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-25-07, 11:30 PM Nothing in the rules suggests that. Elans age just like anybody else, they simply don't have a maximum age.

For comparison, look at Warforged (ECS, MMIII). Their anti-aging properties are explicitly stated.
BloodSpill
07-26-07, 12:13 AM Elans will eventually get to the 'Venerable' age category, and then stay there until slain by combat, Con damage or any other way a person gets knocked off the perch that's not a natural death.
Mai_ariti
07-26-07, 12:02 PM Here's the ending of that argument: the increases to the mental ability scores comes from a greater understanding of mortality and since the Elan never gain that, being immortal, they don't gain the bonuses either.
Tempest Stormwind
07-26-07, 12:20 PM "Ah, my friend. You assume that to be immortal is to be unchanging. Sadly, it is not so. Only the gods can create something truly unending. The ritual that Made me, as old as it is, was still carried out by former mortals. Mortals are not perfect. Every night, as I renew my structure, a tiny amount of what I am is lost. I can only sustain so much of my strength through force of will alone; what lies beyond my strength will eventually be lost to the sands of time.

Oh, I suspect I will eventually reach a point of equilibrium, where my strength of will can restore whatever remains of my decaying body indefinitely. That time is still some ways away for me -- perhaps a millenium or so. Until then I must be content to be only mostly immortal. After all, I was only human once. The way I see it, I'm still ahead."

(Just a bit of fluff for BloodSpill's correct rules statement.)
El_Machinae
07-28-07, 06:40 PM Here's the ending of that argument: the increases to the mental ability scores comes from a greater understanding of mortality and since the Elan never gain that, being immortal, they don't gain the bonuses either.

That's what I figure. The increased mental ability as the Elan becomes experienced is reflected in the stat boosts due to leveling.

That said, it's quite realistic to assume that people keep getting wiser and wiser with age, even if they don't lose physical abilities.
Polaris
07-28-07, 10:48 PM It is my understanding that this doesn't work for Elan since Elan have no age categories. [They did, but they were removed by errata IIRC.]

However, something very much like this does work for Druids. A Druid can live to be of verable age and (if sufficient level) will not lose physical stats. Even if he does, he can still reincarnate himself into another body (yes this costs a level), and that new body is 'young adult' but you explicitly keep your mental attribute scores. Rinse, lather, and repeat.

-Polaris
Tempest Stormwind
07-29-07, 12:41 AM It is my understanding that this doesn't work for Elan since Elan have no age categories. [They did, but they were removed by errata IIRC.]

Errata removed their maximum age, but left the age categories intact.

However, something very much like this does work for Druids. A Druid can live to be of verable age and (if sufficient level) will not lose physical stats. Even if he does, he can still reincarnate himself into another body (yes this costs a level), and that new body is 'young adult' but you explicitly keep your mental attribute scores. Rinse, lather, and repeat.

Telepaths can do this too, but it's riskier (True Mind Switch). I'm mentioning this because elans favor psion.
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-29-07, 01:07 AM However, something very much like this does work for Druids. A Druid can live to be of verable age and (if sufficient level) will not lose physical stats. Even if he does, he can still reincarnate himself into another body (yes this costs a level), and that new body is 'young adult' but you explicitly keep your mental attribute scores. Rinse, lather, and repeat.

-Polaris

Actually, a druid can't reincarnate himself, as he cannot cast spells while deceased (yes, yes, I know this isn't explicity stated in the rules). He'd have to get one of his druid buddies to do it for him. Also, most druidic sects would find this practice abhorrent, or restrict it to the wisest of their ranks, or even restrict it to nonmagical plant forms or something druidy.
Tempest Stormwind
07-29-07, 01:12 AM Actually, a druid can't reincarnate himself, as he cannot cast spells while deceased (yes, yes, I know this isn't explicity stated in the rules). He'd have to get one of his druid buddies to do it for him. Also, most druidic sects would find this practice abhorrent, or restrict it to the wisest of their ranks, or even restrict it to nonmagical plant forms or something druidy.

The earlier part of the loop -- hit high levels before you hit middle age -- still works. And True Mind Switch still works for the psions.

And Reincarnate can't bring you back as a sandwitch. (See link in sig.)
Polaris
07-29-07, 01:19 AM Actually, a druid can't reincarnate himself, as he cannot cast spells while deceased (yes, yes, I know this isn't explicity stated in the rules). He'd have to get one of his druid buddies to do it for him. Also, most druidic sects would find this practice abhorrent, or restrict it to the wisest of their ranks, or even restrict it to nonmagical plant forms or something druidy.

Not so fast. The only thing a druid needs to be able to do is be able to get the final bit of reincarnate cast while dead. An Arcane Hierophant (or Mystic Theurge with Druid levels) can do this without alteration via the Contingency spell. I am pretty sure that cohorts, animal companions, and the like can be adjusted via feats/abilities to make the final part of the loop work. For that matter, given that Reincarnate is only a fourth level spell, a rogue or other non-druid could pull this off as well. [And yes the Psion with Mind-switch also works.]

As for Druidic orders frowning on it, some would, but I could easily envision others (especially Evil ones) that would actually encourage this.

-Polaris
spectralphoenix
07-29-07, 01:26 AM Actually, a druid can't reincarnate himself, as he cannot cast spells while deceased (yes, yes, I know this isn't explicity stated in the rules). He'd have to get one of his druid buddies to do it for him. Also, most druidic sects would find this practice abhorrent, or restrict it to the wisest of their ranks, or even restrict it to nonmagical plant forms or something druidy.

Maybe you could try clones? It's a lot higher-maintenance (you have to take the flesh sample at a young age and keep the clone in good condition) but if you immediately made another clone when you were brought back you could keep it going indefinitely (as long as you kept gaining new levels.)

And you wouldn't need to worry about any tree huggers going on about the sanctity of nature, either.

Of course, I suppose technically Eschew Materials removes the chunk of flesh requirement, so you might not even need that.
Tempest Stormwind
07-29-07, 01:35 AM Of course, I suppose technically Eschew Materials removes the chunk of flesh requirement, so you might not even need that.

HEAVY emphasis on "technically". As written, Eschew Materials can allow you to create Simulacrums of *anything* (including legendary creatures, GODS (if low enough HD) or even purely ficticious creatures!), provided you still provide the powdered ruby.
El_Machinae
07-29-07, 12:30 PM As I figure, other abberrations should be able to Reincarnate into Elans, too. A way for a mindflayer to become immortal, and all that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adamaro23 07-25-07, 11:12 PM	My cousin keeps telling me that theres a loop with Elan's age... He says: "since they rebuild their bodies and can technicly live forever and rebuild themselves, elans should not suffer the penalties of old age, but since their mind stays the same they should be able to retain the bonuses granted by old age to Charisma, Wisdom, and Intelligence like a Dragonwrought Kobold does." I say not, since rebuild does state this, unlike dragonwrought kobold. Please reply so I can tell him.... he won't believe me.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-25-07, 11:30 PM	Nothing in the rules suggests that. Elans age just like anybody else, they simply don't have a maximum age. For comparison, look at Warforged (ECS, MMIII). Their anti-aging properties are explicitly stated.
BloodSpill 07-26-07, 12:13 AM	Elans will eventually get to the 'Venerable' age category, and then stay there until slain by combat, Con damage or any other way a person gets knocked off the perch that's not a natural death.
Mai_ariti 07-26-07, 12:02 PM	Here's the ending of that argument: the increases to the mental ability scores comes from a greater understanding of mortality and since the Elan never gain that, being immortal, they don't gain the bonuses either.
Tempest Stormwind 07-26-07, 12:20 PM	"Ah, my friend. You assume that to be immortal is to be unchanging. Sadly, it is not so. Only the gods can create something truly unending. The ritual that Made me, as old as it is, was still carried out by former mortals. Mortals are not perfect. Every night, as I renew my structure, a tiny amount of what I am is lost. I can only sustain so much of my strength through force of will alone; what lies beyond my strength will eventually be lost to the sands of time. Oh, I suspect I will eventually reach a point of equilibrium, where my strength of will can restore whatever remains of my decaying body indefinitely. That time is still some ways away for me -- perhaps a millenium or so. Until then I must be content to be only mostly immortal. After all, I was only human once. The way I see it, I'm still ahead." (Just a bit of fluff for BloodSpill's correct rules statement.)
El_Machinae 07-28-07, 06:40 PM	Here's the ending of that argument: the increases to the mental ability scores comes from a greater understanding of mortality and since the Elan never gain that, being immortal, they don't gain the bonuses either. That's what I figure. The increased mental ability as the Elan becomes experienced is reflected in the stat boosts due to leveling. That said, it's quite realistic to assume that people keep getting wiser and wiser with age, even if they don't lose physical abilities.
Polaris 07-28-07, 10:48 PM	It is my understanding that this doesn't work for Elan since Elan have no age categories. [They did, but they were removed by errata IIRC.] However, something very much like this does work for Druids. A Druid can live to be of verable age and (if sufficient level) will not lose physical stats. Even if he does, he can still reincarnate himself into another body (yes this costs a level), and that new body is 'young adult' but you explicitly keep your mental attribute scores. Rinse, lather, and repeat. -Polaris
Tempest Stormwind 07-29-07, 12:41 AM	It is my understanding that this doesn't work for Elan since Elan have no age categories. [They did, but they were removed by errata IIRC.] Errata removed their maximum age, but left the age categories intact. However, something very much like this does work for Druids. A Druid can live to be of verable age and (if sufficient level) will not lose physical stats. Even if he does, he can still reincarnate himself into another body (yes this costs a level), and that new body is 'young adult' but you explicitly keep your mental attribute scores. Rinse, lather, and repeat. Telepaths can do this too, but it's riskier (True Mind Switch). I'm mentioning this because elans favor psion.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-29-07, 01:07 AM	However, something very much like this does work for Druids. A Druid can live to be of verable age and (if sufficient level) will not lose physical stats. Even if he does, he can still reincarnate himself into another body (yes this costs a level), and that new body is 'young adult' but you explicitly keep your mental attribute scores. Rinse, lather, and repeat. -Polaris Actually, a druid can't reincarnate himself, as he cannot cast spells while deceased (yes, yes, I know this isn't explicity stated in the rules). He'd have to get one of his druid buddies to do it for him. Also, most druidic sects would find this practice abhorrent, or restrict it to the wisest of their ranks, or even restrict it to nonmagical plant forms or something druidy.
Tempest Stormwind 07-29-07, 01:12 AM	Actually, a druid can't reincarnate himself, as he cannot cast spells while deceased (yes, yes, I know this isn't explicity stated in the rules). He'd have to get one of his druid buddies to do it for him. Also, most druidic sects would find this practice abhorrent, or restrict it to the wisest of their ranks, or even restrict it to nonmagical plant forms or something druidy. The earlier part of the loop -- hit high levels before you hit middle age -- still works. And True Mind Switch still works for the psions. And Reincarnate can't bring you back as a sandwitch. (See link in sig.)
Polaris 07-29-07, 01:19 AM	Actually, a druid can't reincarnate himself, as he cannot cast spells while deceased (yes, yes, I know this isn't explicity stated in the rules). He'd have to get one of his druid buddies to do it for him. Also, most druidic sects would find this practice abhorrent, or restrict it to the wisest of their ranks, or even restrict it to nonmagical plant forms or something druidy. Not so fast. The only thing a druid needs to be able to do is be able to get the final bit of reincarnate cast while dead. An Arcane Hierophant (or Mystic Theurge with Druid levels) can do this without alteration via the Contingency spell. I am pretty sure that cohorts, animal companions, and the like can be adjusted via feats/abilities to make the final part of the loop work. For that matter, given that Reincarnate is only a fourth level spell, a rogue or other non-druid could pull this off as well. [And yes the Psion with Mind-switch also works.] As for Druidic orders frowning on it, some would, but I could easily envision others (especially Evil ones) that would actually encourage this. -Polaris
spectralphoenix 07-29-07, 01:26 AM	Actually, a druid can't reincarnate himself, as he cannot cast spells while deceased (yes, yes, I know this isn't explicity stated in the rules). He'd have to get one of his druid buddies to do it for him. Also, most druidic sects would find this practice abhorrent, or restrict it to the wisest of their ranks, or even restrict it to nonmagical plant forms or something druidy. Maybe you could try clones? It's a lot higher-maintenance (you have to take the flesh sample at a young age and keep the clone in good condition) but if you immediately made another clone when you were brought back you could keep it going indefinitely (as long as you kept gaining new levels.) And you wouldn't need to worry about any tree huggers going on about the sanctity of nature, either. Of course, I suppose technically Eschew Materials removes the chunk of flesh requirement, so you might not even need that.
Tempest Stormwind 07-29-07, 01:35 AM	Of course, I suppose technically Eschew Materials removes the chunk of flesh requirement, so you might not even need that. HEAVY emphasis on "technically". As written, Eschew Materials can allow you to create Simulacrums of anything (including legendary creatures, GODS (if low enough HD) or even purely ficticious creatures!), provided you still provide the powdered ruby.
El_Machinae 07-29-07, 12:30 PM	As I figure, other abberrations should be able to Reincarnate into Elans, too. A way for a mindflayer to become immortal, and all that.