Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grizzled Gryphon 04-22-07, 08:46 PM	If an Elan becomes a Dragonborn, and said Elan has the racial feats Elan Resiliance, Greater, and the other one that allows you to up your saves better, does he retain the abilities? I would think not, but maybe I am wrong. Also, does he replace those feats, or just plain lose access to them? I would imagine the latter, but again, maybe I am wrong. Thanks for any help.
Warforged Goblin 04-23-07, 07:29 AM	IIRC and since I don't have to book to back it up, I do indeed believe that he would lose access to any racial background feats. It's kind of like the reincarnation spell. If you're a shifter who gets reincarnated into a dwarf, that dwarf can't benefit from any [Shifter] feat he may have. It sucks, but sometimes that's wat you've gotta do. Although, if you're looking for dragon flavor with an elan, there's a PrC in Dragon Magic that ties psionic classes together with the gem dragons.
Captain_Kobold 04-23-07, 08:41 AM	A kindly DM might allow the elan to replace any elan-specific feats with some of the feats that dragonborn could take such as wings etc. Not feats that imply some sort of training, but those that relate to the character's new form.
AZNsupermarket 04-24-07, 02:48 PM	You can keep the racial feats. Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race.
Zylo_Drizzt 04-25-07, 10:58 AM	This came up in an earlier thread with a warforged becoming a dragon born and I gave the definitive proof as AZNsupermarket did.
Zaistars69 04-25-07, 11:30 AM	right you keep the feats...but can't use them because you don't have the ability they feed off of anymore. that seems a bit silly. I agree with Captain_Kobolds idea the best. So Zylo did your warforged keep his body feats and the armor bonus that came with them? Or was it something that makes more sense like extra slam?
Zylo_Drizzt 04-25-07, 12:18 PM	armor feat not composite plating but armor feat becuase it says you are still your previos race which is what the requirements were for addy body
Zaistars69 04-25-07, 12:54 PM	armor feat not composite plating but armor feat becuase it says you are still your previos race which is what the requirements were for addy body I'm going to have to take a look at that when I get to my books tonight. That seems a bit off to me.
Pangeon 04-25-07, 01:16 PM	The next logical question, of course, is whether the dragonborn warforged can select feats that would improve his now-absent composite plating. Technically, these feats don’t list composite plating as a prerequisite, so it appears the answer would be yes. The Unarmored Body feat (Races of Eberron pg. 120) supports this ruling, as it indicates that other feats that adjust the character’s armor bonus could be selected later, even though he technically doesn’t have the composite plating’s armor bonus any more. Similar situation. I'm without my books right now, but if the feat requires "Elan Resistance" you would lose the feat- if the feat requires you be an Elan, you still qualify. Depending on the wording of the text, you might be able to still use the feat.
Zaistars69 04-25-07, 05:41 PM	The dragonborn thing says your being reborn in a completely different body. you are no longer in your old body, which is what the warforged body feats augment. If you no longer have your old body, you no longer have your body covered in adamantine, cold iron tracery, mithiril or whatever. sometimes ask wizards is wrong.
Mr_Teapot 04-25-07, 06:03 PM	The dragonborn thing says your being reborn in a completely different body. you are no longer in your old body, which is what the warforged body feats augment. If you no longer have your old body, you no longer have your body covered in adamantine, cold iron tracery, mithiril or whatever. sometimes ask wizards is wrong. A) That's all flavor text, and has no real effect on the rules. B) Elan are already psionic creatures that reincarnate in a series of bodies, so I don't see why, flavorwise, their abilities wouldn't carry over to a new form, as they already have done before.
Engilbrand 04-25-07, 09:00 PM	Tricky. There are a few things going on here. 1. The feats say that you must Elan. 2. Dragonborn says that you still count as an Elan. 3. Read the feats. It doesn't actually say, "When you use Elan Resilience..." It just says, "As an immediate action, you can reduce..." It looks like it would work to me. Except that it's psionic and psionics are BROKEN! :) What are you trying to figure it out for? Just for fun? Or are you going to try to break Rich's game when your Psion/Cleric bites the dust?
Grizzled Gryphon 04-25-07, 10:07 PM	What are you trying to figure it out for? Just for fun? Or are you going to try to break Rich's game when your Psion/Cleric bites the dust? Damn nosy players... I need a different handle for this site, so the players of my game don't snoop around and check out what I am doing.
Engilbrand 04-25-07, 10:23 PM	It's not my fault that you're full of bad ideas. Really, though, do you honestly think that I would use any knowledge gained from here in the game. No matter what it is, I'm going to own it. In the face!
Zaistars69 04-25-07, 10:42 PM	A) That's all flavor text, and has no real effect on the rules. B) Elan are already psionic creatures that reincarnate in a series of bodies, so I don't see why, flavorwise, their abilities wouldn't carry over to a new form, as they already have done before. Well how about this one, under the time section it says the supplicant must fast and sleep for 24 hours. Neither of which the warforged can do. So according to RAW a warforged can't do it.
Pangeon 04-25-07, 11:18 PM	1. The feats say that you must Elan. 2. Dragonborn says that you still count as an Elan. 3. Read the feats. It doesn't actually say, "When you use Elan Resilience..." It just says, "As an immediate action, you can reduce..." Well, there you have it.
stsword 04-26-07, 12:43 AM	Well how about this one, under the time section it says the supplicant must fast and sleep for 24 hours. Neither of which the warforged can do. So according to RAW a warforged can't do it. Not so. The book says fast and meditate. The definition of fast means to abstain from food, so by definition a warforged is always fasting. So there's no problem with a warforged dragonborn.
KurenaiYami 04-26-07, 02:25 AM	Not to mention if it did say "sleep," then an Elf or Elan couldn't become one anyway.
Zaistars69 04-26-07, 01:00 PM	Not to mention if it did say "sleep," then an Elf or Elan couldn't become one anyway. It does say sleep. And elves can sleep they just don't like to, I have no idea about Elens since I don't allow them in my game. I am also fully aware that the FAQ says warforged dragonborn are OK. After reading the FAQ I would always want to be a warforged Dragonborn because you get new nifty racial abilities and the only thing you loose is your composite plating. Oooooh, but you can still apparently take the body feats.
Zaistars69 04-27-07, 11:23 AM	Does anyone else think this is silly?
saidin0111 04-27-07, 11:52 AM	It does say sleep. And elves can sleep they just don't like to, I have no idea about Elens since I don't allow them in my game. I am also fully aware that the FAQ says warforged dragonborn are OK. After reading the FAQ I would always want to be a warforged Dragonborn because you get new nifty racial abilities and the only thing you loose is your composite plating. Oooooh, but you can still apparently take the body feats. Why on earth do you ban Elans from your games? Their racial abilities are not that overpowering, really. As a race, they get two power points, allowing only two total uses per day of their 3 special abilities. They don't get the standard darkvision of abberations. They take a -2 hit to CHA with no stat bonuses. Oh, they're effectively immortal, but that doesn't come into play in most campaigns, so that can't be it. If they take a manifesting class they can completely gimp (read throw out) their manifesting to prevent almost all damage to them for a while and then proceed to be a completely useless liability the rest of the day. The damage prevention is what lured me to the race initially, which I later realized sucked on a cost/benefit basis, and oddly it keeps being thrown around as what makes them broken powerful, if you look into what they are capable of as a manifester, and then compare it to what they'd be getting out of preventing 100's of damage per day, it's pretty clear that they'd get a lot more out of manifesting powers than preventing damage. Of course if you are one of those that thinks that psionics is inherently broken because it doesn't use the vancian system/combines a few spells into one power(dependent upon how much you spend on manifesting it)/you can choose how much to burn on each power, then there's really nothing I can do for you on that one.
Zaistars69 04-27-07, 12:35 PM	Wow, that was...odd to say the least. Me not allowing elans has nothing to do with psionics, since I am capable of designing adventures that challange each player while simultaniously not leaving anyone out. I just don't think the Elens are properly balanced with relation to the other PC races. Yes I have modified the half-orc and -elf.
Grizzled Gryphon 04-27-07, 12:38 PM	It is utterly astounding how many of the threads I start degrade into debates about something other than the origonal topic. Oh, well. Thanks for all the relevant replies.
Zaistars69 04-27-07, 12:54 PM	It is utterly astounding how many of the threads I start degrade into debates about something other than the origonal topic. Oh, well. Thanks for all the relevant replies. that's because your question was answered. You keep the feats and associated abilities as long as you are still physically/metaphysically able to use them. Ie. with the Elan you would not be able to use those feats that enhance your Elan abilities because you loose that particular racial trait when you become dragonborn. As to whether or not you gain a replacement feat I don't think the books say. I would let you exchange one with another dragonblood feat that is based off of the fact that you are now dragonblood. But that's just a house rule.
stsword 05-05-07, 02:10 AM	It does say sleep. And elves can sleep they just don't like to, I have no idea about Elens since I don't allow them in my game. I am also fully aware that the FAQ says warforged dragonborn are OK. After reading the FAQ I would always want to be a warforged Dragonborn because you get new nifty racial abilities and the only thing you loose is your composite plating. Oooooh, but you can still apparently take the body feats. Actually, that's a different thing. The requirement is 24 hours of meditation and fasting, then the applicant climbs into the egg and after 24 hours of sleep the applicant is reborn as a dragonborn. Now, unless you can name a single pc race that can sleep for 24 hours straight as a normal matter of course, I have to conclude that the 24 hours of sleep is a result of the ritual, unless one wants to add a requirement of lots of drugs. :) While I suppose one could use that as an excuse to disallow a creature that doesn't sleep normally, I think making a Warforged's immunity to sleep effects making them immune to the magic of a dragon god when they are volunteering to be effected seems slightly dubious to me, especially since the sleeping is simply a part of the process of transformation.
saidin0111 05-05-07, 03:49 AM	Wow, that was...odd to say the least. Me not allowing elans has nothing to do with psionics, since I am capable of designing adventures that challange each player while simultaniously not leaving anyone out. I just don't think the Elens are properly balanced with relation to the other PC races. Yes I have modified the half-orc and -elf. actually, I only brought up psionics because the Elans' racial abilities are at their optimal performance only with a manifesting class, therefore I used a manifesting class to try to demonstrate that they are indeed, at best, balanced, and not overpowered like many often believe, you did not state your specific opinon, overpowered or underpowered, but since most people that vocally dislike them are with the overpowered camp, I just assumed, so what I was trying to get at is that if they are going to be using their racial abilities to their fullest, then they are giving up quite a bit, secondly, if they aren't a manifester, then their racial pp do not allow for anything near the brokeness that many associate with them, so they appear to be balanced, I guess you could argue that their inherent ability to take psionic feats could be broken if you have a thing against psionic feats, but I haven't heard too many people cry about them since the book first came out, I suppose it did seem that I was going off on a tangent to the original purpose of my post when I went to talking about manifesting, but I was simply trying to use it to help illustrate my point, the fact that it ended up taking up about half of the post probably didn't help with clarity though
Zaistars69 05-07-07, 11:17 AM	Actually, that's a different thing. The requirement is 24 hours of meditation and fasting, then the applicant climbs into the egg and after 24 hours of sleep the applicant is reborn as a dragonborn. Now, unless you can name a single pc race that can sleep for 24 hours straight as a normal matter of course, I have to conclude that the 24 hours of sleep is a result of the ritual, unless one wants to add a requirement of lots of drugs. :) While I suppose one could use that as an excuse to disallow a creature that doesn't sleep normally, I think making a Warforged's immunity to sleep effects making them immune to the magic of a dragon god when they are volunteering to be effected seems slightly dubious to me, especially since the sleeping is simply a part of the process of transformation. Humans can sleep for 24 hours or even longer if their body needs the rest to recuperate from something (massive trauma, sickness, etc). This type of transformation could be considered traumatic since well the entire body is undergoing a massive change. I know, it's moving into fluff range but since the sleep section doesn't explain anything here ya go.
diphycue 05-08-07, 11:16 PM	Unfortunately, I think we've entered into an area where common sense is overridden by the rules. In this case...if your body is built a certain way, whether to heal incredibly quickly (Elan) or made of wood and metal with armored plating (Warforged), it makes sense that if you lost your body, say by changing into a muscle and flesh dragon, you would no longer be able to use the psi energy to heal your body, because your flesh is no longer configured to be a conduit, or be able to weld armor plating to your frame effectively, because your flesh would burn and not anchor the metal properly. However, according to the rules, your type and race abilities do not change, meaning that whatever you were before, aberrant or living construct, you remain that, allowing access to the abilities and feats you were using before. Personally, I would rule that if you body is massively changed by something, even if the rules don't technically say it changes abilities, I would say that you either lose access to abilities and feats that require your old body, or you replace those abilities and feats with something specific for your new body (probably over time, though).
Zaistars69 05-09-07, 10:49 AM	Unfortunately, I think we've entered into an area where common sense is overridden by the rules. In this case...if your body is built a certain way, whether to heal incredibly quickly (Elan) or made of wood and metal with armored plating (Warforged), it makes sense that if you lost your body, say by changing into a muscle and flesh dragon, you would no longer be able to use the psi energy to heal your body, because your flesh is no longer configured to be a conduit, or be able to weld armor plating to your frame effectively, because your flesh would burn and not anchor the metal properly. However, according to the rules, your type and race abilities do not change, meaning that whatever you were before, aberrant or living construct, you remain that, allowing access to the abilities and feats you were using before. Personally, I would rule that if you body is massively changed by something, even if the rules don't technically say it changes abilities, I would say that you either lose access to abilities and feats that require your old body, or you replace those abilities and feats with something specific for your new body (probably over time, though). Oh, I absolutely agree, unfortunetly we were'nt discussing if it made sense, just if the rules supported it.