Elf maturity. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elf maturity. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Argo
03-17-08, 06:51 PM Elves reach adulthood at the age of 110.
Really?

This would mean that an "Elf year" is roughly 6 human years. So after 30 years on the planet, an elf would still be the equivalent of a 5-year old.

That is a long time to be basically helpless.

Even if you live for 800 years, 30 years is a damn long time to have to spend every waking moment with your child to make sure they don't accidentally swallow glass. Jesus Christ was dead and alive again in thirty years, and elves can barely walk?

So, does the elf mature about the same as humans for a little while and then get stuck in a lingering fifty year pre-teen phase?

How long does an elf spend going through puberty?

All these questions and more, presented here for your discussion.
Kursk
03-17-08, 07:31 PM 30 years is a damn long time to have to spend every waking moment with your child to make sure they don't accidentally swallow glass.

And this is why they have a relatively small population.
VampireHunterD4
03-17-08, 07:43 PM According to several sources within D&D, Elves mature phsyically and mentally at a rate only slightly slower the humans until near twenty, when they slow to almost stopped. During this time they remain apprentices to older elves in the community and learn various crafts, arts, weaponry, and about being an elf. It is hard to understand, of course, just how much is different between a 25 and 100 year old elf, beside knowledge and with that, maturity. One must assume elves are not aloof and high-falootin' from birth. :D

A decent write-up of it is in the Races of the Wild- and considering how in 80 years not all humans manage to escape the high-school mentality, maturity, and thought-patterns, perhaps elves enjoy having the time to teach their children better. :P
Lappy9000
03-18-08, 12:47 AM According to several sources within D&D, Elves mature phsyically and mentally at a rate only slightly slower the humans until near twenty, when they slow to almost stopped. During this time they remain apprentices to older elves in the community and learn various crafts, arts, weaponry, and about being an elf. It is hard to understand, of course, just how much is different between a 25 and 100 year old elf, beside knowledge and with that, maturity. One must assume elves are not aloof and high-falootin' from birth.

That's probably true, but I like the 6 elf years = 1 human year theory. If only to explain the small population (:cool:) and make elves seem a little less uber.
herrdoktor
03-18-08, 12:57 AM According to several sources within D&D, Elves mature phsyically and mentally at a rate only slightly slower the humans until near twenty, when they slow to almost stopped. During this time they remain apprentices to older elves in the community and learn various crafts, arts, weaponry, and about being an elf. It is hard to understand, of course, just how much is different between a 25 and 100 year old elf, beside knowledge and with that, maturity. One must assume elves are not aloof and high-falootin' from birth. :D

weird thing about that though - 15-20 is the time for humans to adventure, so elves under this system could go out a become 1st-lv pcs pretty easily. personally, i'm going to go with 'elf years' (6:1) as well
Wharin
03-18-08, 01:15 AM I love how people get all ****** off about the elves aging slower, citing their biggest beef as something similiar to "Who in their right mind would want to change diapers for 12 years?!?!one!"

Well i can tell you that I don't like changing diapers for 12 months, but that doesnt mean that, as a parent, I can just flick a finger and magically have the kid potty train it self, citing my puppies (who can already walk, pretty much, by day one) who know to do their business in certain spots in the matter of weeks.

And its not that elves are "retarded" either; well i suppose they are by human standards, but when you compair humans to Thri-kreen or really any animal, so are humans. Its simply about maturation speed. Yeah, if you decide to age them ratio-wise, they would have to change diapers for more than a decade, but they also get to live 6 more centuries than the typical human, as well. I'd say that its a decent pay off.

If that doesnt make you happy, then consider that most elves live in what most of us conisider a Paradise, or a Utopia, if you will, typically free from attacks of invaders and othe dilemmas that most sentient kingdoms face. Such pristine places that elves call home make the extended timeline of child rearing, likely, much more bearable.

if THAT still doesnt make you happy, then you might want to consider using that sidebar presented in "Races of the Wild" that states that elves age, pretty much, as fast as humans do, but they spend their next century after "coming of age" to be free and do what elves do before they are cosidered "adults" by their community. But *I* really don't care for that side bar. I think it somehow undercuts and cheapens the elven childhood by saying that, even though its a largely free-willed culture, Elves are expected to twiddle their thumbs for 80 years before their, again, FREE WILLED culture deems them adults so they can pack their things and go adventuring. I don't care for it. Something else needs to be holding them back from that final thrust into the wild outdoors. Even if its because they are trapped in that 12-15 (human) year old state of near adulthood for 80 years where, while they make, by and large, appear adult-ish (I am aware that this is something of an ever-growing problem in today's soceity), they simply haven't finished maturing (Represented by a small penalty, like -1 or 2, to all of their stats).
key
03-18-08, 02:07 AM I think it somehow undercuts and cheapens the elven childhood by saying that, even though its a largely free-willed culture, Elves are expected to twiddle their thumbs for 80 years before their, again, FREE WILLED culture deems them adults so they can pack their things and go adventuring.
It says that "more than a few" begin adventuring "at much younger ages", which could shrink the twiddling time to nada.
M-bark
03-18-08, 03:37 AM Personally, I'd go with something of a hybrid system between the 6:1 and the "spending a century to mentally mature" ones, which pretty much comes down to the following: elves mature half as fast as humans, up to the age of twenty (which means that compared to a human, they'd be as physically mature as a 10-year-old). After this, their aging goes much slower (elves have a fricken' long puberty) during which they mentally and physically mature. Due to the long puberty (and you know how much humans tend to act all rebel-like during puberty), elves typically don't want to go through the trouble of raising children, thus they have less children, thus the population remains low.
Naderion
03-18-08, 08:07 AM I hold it that elves age slightly slower than humans at first, reaching the level of a 20 year old human at age 30. But as the "youngsters should have their fun", there's no real need to mature mentally and they "live at moms" until they are about 100 year old. At that age most elves realize it's really time to start a life on their own, take a serious job, build their own home and usually getting their own family. The next 400 years go by like that until they start to feel the weight of time at age 500 and usually die within the next 100 years with the physical state of a 60 year old human (assuming a normal maximum age for humans at 80).

But like humans do, elves can "grow up" much earlier than age 100. If circumstances require it, a 30 year old elf can work perfectly as a full adult, but elven society usually doesn't require it.
Argo
03-18-08, 12:26 PM I love how people get all ****** off about the elves aging slower, citing their biggest beef as something similiar to "Who in their right mind would want to change diapers for 12 years?!?!one!"

Wow. You're a dick.

I never once indicated I was in any way asterisked-off.
I also never said "Who would want to change diapers for 12 years?!?!one!", I said 30 years is a long time for a creature to be helpless--which it is, from an evolutionary standpoint.
But wow. You should really check into treating other people with some modicum of respect.

The other responders made very good points. I was unaware of the sidebar in Races of the Wild, I'll check into that, thanks.
Wharin
03-18-08, 02:08 PM Well to be fair, my complaints aren't largely directed towards you, per se. Its just that there have been MANY threads like this in the past, many of which have in fact complained about changing diapers for decades doesn't make any sense, because "who would want to do that?" (which is, in fact faulty logic, because not wanting to do something, and having to do something are two VERY different things). Your question/complaint (while it didn't nessisarily contain any explitives, per se, did make a powerful statement involving Jesus Christ) just happened to sound very very much so in the same vain, and it just so happened that I thought i would chime in, in kind.

Evolution has very little to do with it, as (unlike this world where its a very touchy subject), there is no/little evolution, and infact the gods created them from the primordial clay as they are now. Obviously 30 years sounds like a lot of time to be helpless to people who haven't even lived that long, and probably won't live to be twice or three times that, and in a setting where this is peril all around, it probably is. Elven cities, however are rarely in such peril (but when they are, its a total raze or nothing), and thus they can take their decades to raise their child comfortably.

As to treating people with respect, while I admittadly sounded harsh with my first sentence, I felt that it kept with the tone of your first paragraph. I then go on to explain why i felt that way and THEN I gave explanations as to likely why it is the way it is in the PHB. I never meant really anything past those first few sentences to have any malice at all, really.

So there, Richard Cranium!*

*See, I can throw direct insults too. Aren't I clever.
Shiftkitty
03-18-08, 03:07 PM I use the aging method in the "Elfquest" stories, that elves age in their early years the same as humans until maturity, when time seems to stop for elves. "The endless golden afternoon of elven maturity" is what I believe it's referred to as. The 2e "The Complete Book of Elves" has an aging chart for elves broken down based on their subrace.
Kursk
03-18-08, 03:09 PM Wow. You're a dick.

Wow, you're breaking the CoC.

Reported.
Orenmir
03-19-08, 04:07 PM Races of the Wild explains everything you want to know about Elf aging. VampireHunterD4 explained it pretty well in the 3rd post of this thread.

Physically and mentally, Elves mature just like humans until their twenties, when their physical aging stops. Yes, they remain the same physically until they die, hundreds of years later. Mentally, they continue to develop until about age 110.

Their mental development is impossible to compare to humans. For the first 20 years, its rapid; then it slows until full maturity at 110.

This also means they are in diapers for the same amount of time human babies are.
Argo
03-19-08, 05:04 PM [You]did make a powerful statement involving Jesus Christ.
Well, that was meant to be a humorous observation regarding the amount of time elves were taking as children as compared to the amount of time Mr. C reportedly took to do everything he's famous for doing.

I never meant really anything past those first few sentences to have any malice at all, really.
So there, Richard Cranium!*
*See, I can throw direct insults too. Aren't I clever.
Fair enough. It certainly seemed like you were directly insulting my intelligence with your post's opening. But if you say you didn't mean it like that, I have no reason not to believe you. It is very easy to lose one's meaning when reading text.
I accept your explanation and I, in turn, apologize for making it personal.

Argo and Wharin settling it like gentlemen, for the people y'all. For the people.

Wow, you're breaking the CoC. Reported.
Oh, relax.
Salla
03-19-08, 09:15 PM I use the aging method in the "Elfquest" stories, that elves age in their early years the same as humans until maturity, when time seems to stop for elves. "The endless golden afternoon of elven maturity" is what I believe it's referred to as. The 2e "The Complete Book of Elves" has an aging chart for elves broken down based on their subrace.

I know not this 'Elfquest', but that's basically how I do it.
Shiftkitty
03-20-08, 11:01 AM "Elfquest" was a series of graphic novels by Richard and Wendy Pini back in the 80's. I read it through the original quest and on into a few of the stories afterwards, but increased demands made them farm out the art and writing, and it started losing it's flavor for me. There are a few anthologies by Father Tree Press that are pretty good. In fact, the stories' concept of the "Father Tree" leeched its way into my D&D elven cultures, even into the drow in the Underdark. I usually have them gravitate toward a major column in their caverns or vaults, sort of a substitute for the central tree held in such high regard in surface elven cultures. (Of course, Narbondel claimed that spot for the Menzoberranyr.) I know there's some name for a similar thing in the D&D canon, but the Father Tree of "Elfquest" seemed to me to hold a much higher significance for the Wolfriders. "Rare indeed was the Wolfrider who died peacefully of old age", and the Father Tree was believed to cradle the spritis of dead Wolfriders in its branches, where they kept eternal watch over the tribe.
beepaladin
03-20-08, 04:06 PM I see it as relevant to bring up Dragon 279 had an article called "Leaf and Thorn: The Secret Lives of Elves" that discussed a lot of issues of elven maturity and birthrate.

According to it, elves have a pretty low birth rate compared to other races which could also contribute to the population control. Moreover, it seems children are more sort of raised by the entire community rather than individuals so even if it did get to the point of changing diapers for a decade, it would be a lot more spread about.

But it sounds like elves, even in their youth are pretty aware but also that adults do a pretty good job of letting them know about dangers and, while still keeping an eye on them, let a lot of things be discovered by the children on their own (elven individuality there ;) ).

But the part of that article that I found interesting was that, they did mention like a 50 year long adolescence that ended somewhere around year 100ish, but anywhere between 75 and like 125 or so when the elf has a sudden "epiphany" and suddenly considers themself to be an adult.

It goes more into it in the article.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Argo 03-17-08, 06:51 PM	Elves reach adulthood at the age of 110. Really? This would mean that an "Elf year" is roughly 6 human years. So after 30 years on the planet, an elf would still be the equivalent of a 5-year old. That is a long time to be basically helpless. Even if you live for 800 years, 30 years is a damn long time to have to spend every waking moment with your child to make sure they don't accidentally swallow glass. Jesus Christ was dead and alive again in thirty years, and elves can barely walk? So, does the elf mature about the same as humans for a little while and then get stuck in a lingering fifty year pre-teen phase? How long does an elf spend going through puberty? All these questions and more, presented here for your discussion.
Kursk 03-17-08, 07:31 PM	30 years is a damn long time to have to spend every waking moment with your child to make sure they don't accidentally swallow glass. And this is why they have a relatively small population.
VampireHunterD4 03-17-08, 07:43 PM	According to several sources within D&D, Elves mature phsyically and mentally at a rate only slightly slower the humans until near twenty, when they slow to almost stopped. During this time they remain apprentices to older elves in the community and learn various crafts, arts, weaponry, and about being an elf. It is hard to understand, of course, just how much is different between a 25 and 100 year old elf, beside knowledge and with that, maturity. One must assume elves are not aloof and high-falootin' from birth. :D A decent write-up of it is in the Races of the Wild- and considering how in 80 years not all humans manage to escape the high-school mentality, maturity, and thought-patterns, perhaps elves enjoy having the time to teach their children better. :P
Lappy9000 03-18-08, 12:47 AM	According to several sources within D&D, Elves mature phsyically and mentally at a rate only slightly slower the humans until near twenty, when they slow to almost stopped. During this time they remain apprentices to older elves in the community and learn various crafts, arts, weaponry, and about being an elf. It is hard to understand, of course, just how much is different between a 25 and 100 year old elf, beside knowledge and with that, maturity. One must assume elves are not aloof and high-falootin' from birth. That's probably true, but I like the 6 elf years = 1 human year theory. If only to explain the small population (:cool:) and make elves seem a little less uber.
herrdoktor 03-18-08, 12:57 AM	According to several sources within D&D, Elves mature phsyically and mentally at a rate only slightly slower the humans until near twenty, when they slow to almost stopped. During this time they remain apprentices to older elves in the community and learn various crafts, arts, weaponry, and about being an elf. It is hard to understand, of course, just how much is different between a 25 and 100 year old elf, beside knowledge and with that, maturity. One must assume elves are not aloof and high-falootin' from birth. :D weird thing about that though - 15-20 is the time for humans to adventure, so elves under this system could go out a become 1st-lv pcs pretty easily. personally, i'm going to go with 'elf years' (6:1) as well
Wharin 03-18-08, 01:15 AM	I love how people get all ****** off about the elves aging slower, citing their biggest beef as something similiar to "Who in their right mind would want to change diapers for 12 years?!?!one!" Well i can tell you that I don't like changing diapers for 12 months, but that doesnt mean that, as a parent, I can just flick a finger and magically have the kid potty train it self, citing my puppies (who can already walk, pretty much, by day one) who know to do their business in certain spots in the matter of weeks. And its not that elves are "retarded" either; well i suppose they are by human standards, but when you compair humans to Thri-kreen or really any animal, so are humans. Its simply about maturation speed. Yeah, if you decide to age them ratio-wise, they would have to change diapers for more than a decade, but they also get to live 6 more centuries than the typical human, as well. I'd say that its a decent pay off. If that doesnt make you happy, then consider that most elves live in what most of us conisider a Paradise, or a Utopia, if you will, typically free from attacks of invaders and othe dilemmas that most sentient kingdoms face. Such pristine places that elves call home make the extended timeline of child rearing, likely, much more bearable. if THAT still doesnt make you happy, then you might want to consider using that sidebar presented in "Races of the Wild" that states that elves age, pretty much, as fast as humans do, but they spend their next century after "coming of age" to be free and do what elves do before they are cosidered "adults" by their community. But I really don't care for that side bar. I think it somehow undercuts and cheapens the elven childhood by saying that, even though its a largely free-willed culture, Elves are expected to twiddle their thumbs for 80 years before their, again, FREE WILLED culture deems them adults so they can pack their things and go adventuring. I don't care for it. Something else needs to be holding them back from that final thrust into the wild outdoors. Even if its because they are trapped in that 12-15 (human) year old state of near adulthood for 80 years where, while they make, by and large, appear adult-ish (I am aware that this is something of an ever-growing problem in today's soceity), they simply haven't finished maturing (Represented by a small penalty, like -1 or 2, to all of their stats).
key 03-18-08, 02:07 AM	I think it somehow undercuts and cheapens the elven childhood by saying that, even though its a largely free-willed culture, Elves are expected to twiddle their thumbs for 80 years before their, again, FREE WILLED culture deems them adults so they can pack their things and go adventuring. It says that "more than a few" begin adventuring "at much younger ages", which could shrink the twiddling time to nada.
M-bark 03-18-08, 03:37 AM	Personally, I'd go with something of a hybrid system between the 6:1 and the "spending a century to mentally mature" ones, which pretty much comes down to the following: elves mature half as fast as humans, up to the age of twenty (which means that compared to a human, they'd be as physically mature as a 10-year-old). After this, their aging goes much slower (elves have a fricken' long puberty) during which they mentally and physically mature. Due to the long puberty (and you know how much humans tend to act all rebel-like during puberty), elves typically don't want to go through the trouble of raising children, thus they have less children, thus the population remains low.
Naderion 03-18-08, 08:07 AM	I hold it that elves age slightly slower than humans at first, reaching the level of a 20 year old human at age 30. But as the "youngsters should have their fun", there's no real need to mature mentally and they "live at moms" until they are about 100 year old. At that age most elves realize it's really time to start a life on their own, take a serious job, build their own home and usually getting their own family. The next 400 years go by like that until they start to feel the weight of time at age 500 and usually die within the next 100 years with the physical state of a 60 year old human (assuming a normal maximum age for humans at 80). But like humans do, elves can "grow up" much earlier than age 100. If circumstances require it, a 30 year old elf can work perfectly as a full adult, but elven society usually doesn't require it.
Argo 03-18-08, 12:26 PM	I love how people get all ****** off about the elves aging slower, citing their biggest beef as something similiar to "Who in their right mind would want to change diapers for 12 years?!?!one!" Wow. You're a dick. I never once indicated I was in any way asterisked-off. I also never said "Who would want to change diapers for 12 years?!?!one!", I said 30 years is a long time for a creature to be helpless--which it is, from an evolutionary standpoint. But wow. You should really check into treating other people with some modicum of respect. The other responders made very good points. I was unaware of the sidebar in Races of the Wild, I'll check into that, thanks.
Wharin 03-18-08, 02:08 PM	Well to be fair, my complaints aren't largely directed towards you, per se. Its just that there have been MANY threads like this in the past, many of which have in fact complained about changing diapers for decades doesn't make any sense, because "who would want to do that?" (which is, in fact faulty logic, because not wanting to do something, and having to do something are two VERY different things). Your question/complaint (while it didn't nessisarily contain any explitives, per se, did make a powerful statement involving Jesus Christ) just happened to sound very very much so in the same vain, and it just so happened that I thought i would chime in, in kind. Evolution has very little to do with it, as (unlike this world where its a very touchy subject), there is no/little evolution, and infact the gods created them from the primordial clay as they are now. Obviously 30 years sounds like a lot of time to be helpless to people who haven't even lived that long, and probably won't live to be twice or three times that, and in a setting where this is peril all around, it probably is. Elven cities, however are rarely in such peril (but when they are, its a total raze or nothing), and thus they can take their decades to raise their child comfortably. As to treating people with respect, while I admittadly sounded harsh with my first sentence, I felt that it kept with the tone of your first paragraph. I then go on to explain why i felt that way and THEN I gave explanations as to likely why it is the way it is in the PHB. I never meant really anything past those first few sentences to have any malice at all, really. So there, Richard Cranium!* *See, I can throw direct insults too. Aren't I clever.
Shiftkitty 03-18-08, 03:07 PM	I use the aging method in the "Elfquest" stories, that elves age in their early years the same as humans until maturity, when time seems to stop for elves. "The endless golden afternoon of elven maturity" is what I believe it's referred to as. The 2e "The Complete Book of Elves" has an aging chart for elves broken down based on their subrace.
Kursk 03-18-08, 03:09 PM	Wow. You're a dick. Wow, you're breaking the CoC. Reported.
Orenmir 03-19-08, 04:07 PM	Races of the Wild explains everything you want to know about Elf aging. VampireHunterD4 explained it pretty well in the 3rd post of this thread. Physically and mentally, Elves mature just like humans until their twenties, when their physical aging stops. Yes, they remain the same physically until they die, hundreds of years later. Mentally, they continue to develop until about age 110. Their mental development is impossible to compare to humans. For the first 20 years, its rapid; then it slows until full maturity at 110. This also means they are in diapers for the same amount of time human babies are.
Argo 03-19-08, 05:04 PM	[You]did make a powerful statement involving Jesus Christ. Well, that was meant to be a humorous observation regarding the amount of time elves were taking as children as compared to the amount of time Mr. C reportedly took to do everything he's famous for doing. I never meant really anything past those first few sentences to have any malice at all, really. So there, Richard Cranium!* *See, I can throw direct insults too. Aren't I clever. Fair enough. It certainly seemed like you were directly insulting my intelligence with your post's opening. But if you say you didn't mean it like that, I have no reason not to believe you. It is very easy to lose one's meaning when reading text. I accept your explanation and I, in turn, apologize for making it personal. Argo and Wharin settling it like gentlemen, for the people y'all. For the people. Wow, you're breaking the CoC. Reported. Oh, relax.
Salla 03-19-08, 09:15 PM	I use the aging method in the "Elfquest" stories, that elves age in their early years the same as humans until maturity, when time seems to stop for elves. "The endless golden afternoon of elven maturity" is what I believe it's referred to as. The 2e "The Complete Book of Elves" has an aging chart for elves broken down based on their subrace. I know not this 'Elfquest', but that's basically how I do it.
Shiftkitty 03-20-08, 11:01 AM	"Elfquest" was a series of graphic novels by Richard and Wendy Pini back in the 80's. I read it through the original quest and on into a few of the stories afterwards, but increased demands made them farm out the art and writing, and it started losing it's flavor for me. There are a few anthologies by Father Tree Press that are pretty good. In fact, the stories' concept of the "Father Tree" leeched its way into my D&D elven cultures, even into the drow in the Underdark. I usually have them gravitate toward a major column in their caverns or vaults, sort of a substitute for the central tree held in such high regard in surface elven cultures. (Of course, Narbondel claimed that spot for the Menzoberranyr.) I know there's some name for a similar thing in the D&D canon, but the Father Tree of "Elfquest" seemed to me to hold a much higher significance for the Wolfriders. "Rare indeed was the Wolfrider who died peacefully of old age", and the Father Tree was believed to cradle the spritis of dead Wolfriders in its branches, where they kept eternal watch over the tribe.
beepaladin 03-20-08, 04:06 PM	I see it as relevant to bring up Dragon 279 had an article called "Leaf and Thorn: The Secret Lives of Elves" that discussed a lot of issues of elven maturity and birthrate. According to it, elves have a pretty low birth rate compared to other races which could also contribute to the population control. Moreover, it seems children are more sort of raised by the entire community rather than individuals so even if it did get to the point of changing diapers for a decade, it would be a lot more spread about. But it sounds like elves, even in their youth are pretty aware but also that adults do a pretty good job of letting them know about dangers and, while still keeping an eye on them, let a lot of things be discovered by the children on their own (elven individuality there ;) ). But the part of that article that I found interesting was that, they did mention like a 50 year long adolescence that ended somewhere around year 100ish, but anywhere between 75 and like 125 or so when the elf has a sudden "epiphany" and suddenly considers themself to be an adult. It goes more into it in the article.