elf or human? [Archive] - Wizards Community

elf or human? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
m o n k
12-01-07, 07:21 PM I'm making an archery-focused fighter, and I'm hoping to get some opinions on whether he would be more effective as an elf or a human. Any opinions out there?
IdleAltruism
12-01-07, 07:30 PM The penalty to con hurts....well the penalty to con hurts just about everywhere.
From an optimization standpoint the human is better. The Elf does have some nice abilities that fit an archer character +2 dex(handy for qualifying for feats) and +2 spot(a crossclass skill for a fighter).

Human has some advantages tho, the bonus feat can be used for something like Able Learner. Along with the extra skillpoints from human you could eventually get higher ranks into crossclass skills.

If you don't care about spot(not a long range archer) you get a bonus feat to mess around with and the skill points never hurt(especially for a fighter). Despite
fighters having so many feats, there are just so many for archers, it can be hard to choose.

Overall it won't have a major effect mid to late game.
gullas
12-01-07, 07:30 PM I have allways thought that elves always make better ranging troops then any other races(excpet for knife throwing halflings:P ) so I'm gona vote for the elf here but the human bonus feat is tempting:rolleyes:
The_Shaman
12-01-07, 09:09 PM IMO it depends. The human bonus feat and skill points never hurt, but elves aren't half bad themselves. Unfortunately, their affinity with bows only helps all elves know how to shoot, and doesn't much help the classes that would already have bow proficiency.

Still, a Wood Elf makes a fine archer imo: bonuses to strength and dexterity, bonuses to spot, and having ranger - one of the better archer classes - as a favourite class, which allows for some good multiclassing between the two.

The con penalty hurts, but then again an archer isn't supposed to be hit; it's one of the main reasons why you're shooting a bow rather than wading in with a sword.
JarionSilverblades
12-02-07, 11:06 AM What Race of Elf?

If it's Wood or Wild, I'd say elf.
Nightshade
12-02-07, 11:17 AM IMO, Elf is only better if you're a Wood Elf (favored class: ranger) and you take your first 2 levels as Ranger - really good skills and skill points, favored enemy, track, wild empathy, 2 good saves, and rapid shot. Then you can go into fighter for as many levels as you want.

If your choice is between PhB elf (favored class: wizard) and human, then human is the better choice cause you can't freely multi-class as the elf. The +2 Dex doesn't much make up for the restriction especially when you consider that humans get 1 sp/lvl, an extra bonus feat, and don't have the multi-class restriction. All of those are very useful for the archer while the other elf abilities do not specifically benefit archery (except the +2 spot but the human bonus sp's more than cancels that out).

But you should still start by taking 2 levels of Ranger, IMO. I think an archer should always start with 2 levels of ranger. That's just me, though.
EvilVegan
12-02-07, 11:58 AM Elves make better archery-clerics.
Humans make better archery-fighters.
m o n k
12-02-07, 02:05 PM But you should still start by taking 2 levels of Ranger, IMO. I think an archer should always start with 2 levels of ranger. That's just me, though.

Taking 2 levels of Ranger makes sense. The only reservation I have is that he'd have to wear light or no armor to benefit from Rapid Shot. I was hoping to use medium armor, as my pc may be expected to absorb some damage fromtime to time (Our party has a barbarian and a bunch of softer characters that will need to hide behind someone with a lot of hit points.). If the pc wears medium Mithral armor, will it count as light armor for the purposes of using the Ranger's Rapid Shot ability?
Krusk
12-02-07, 02:22 PM If the pc wears medium Mithral armor, will it count as light armor for the purposes of using the Ranger's Rapid Shot ability?

Yup.

The elf dex boost is cool and helps you qualify for some of the archery feats without haveing a naturally high dex. IE if using point buy you can spend for a 15 instead of a 17. letting you boost up the other stats. this is alongside the normal benefits of a high dex.

A human gets an extra feat and skills, obvious benefits.

I would say that they are probably about even.
RobbyPants
12-03-07, 11:00 AM To echo what a lot of other posters already said:

Normally, I'd go with human over elf, just because they're more versitle (the extra feat is awesome) and the Con penalty sucks. That being said, if you're an archer, the Con penalty isn't so bad as you're hopefully out of melee. Just remember that with light armor, a Con penalty, and d8 or so hit dice makes you a very squishy target.

Now, if you're build isn't too feat intensive, then the human bonus feat isn't so important. Even still, you can probably shore a lot of that up with fighter levels. Most any feat you will need will be on the fighter's bonus list.

Also, if you're going to play an elf, by all means play a wood elf. You get ranger as a favored class (which makes ranger/fighter multi-classing work well). You also get a +2 Str bonus, which works great with composite bows.

If you want to throw something truely interesting into the mix, consider splashing a single level of barbarian into your build. You'll get +10 speed (which is great from a maneurverability standpoint) and the ability to rage. Rage doesn't affect your Dex score at all, and the +4 Str could be used with a big enough bow. It's kind of an odd concept, but it might be a good "panic button", as you can only use it once per day.
Bopple
12-03-07, 11:42 AM For archery, Ferocity alternative barbarian class feature from Cityscape would be better.

Human bonus feat does not make much difference, because most archery feats have BAB restriction. But then again, Able Learner is always a great choice for the bonus feat.

If you are going to play a low-lvl official adventure, low-light vision is really a boon for an archer.
But if the campaign is any longer, its usefulness will go away soon enough, because it can be easily mimicked by a magic item at mid lvl.
SilverFoxKnows
12-03-07, 07:13 PM One point in the Elf's favor is low light vision. You can't shoot what you can't see.
Lord_Zeb
12-04-07, 03:37 PM My vote is toward the Wood Elf as well, as they are the best archer race. +2 Dex & Str, no Con mod, and -2 to mental. Might be a bit low on the Will saves, but that can well be worth it.

Scout 4/Ranger 16 is the best Archer build though. The Archery spells in the splat-books help here. (Do not dump Wisdom here.)

Ranger 2/Fighter 18 could work well though, even though I would recommend some PrCing.

Remember Low-light vision and Spot are very important, as you will have great troubles at shooting at things you cannot see. (Blind-fight feat doesn't help for ranged attacks.)

For a spectacular High Elf archer, go Scout 4/Wizard 6, and then take Arcane Archer 10. Your Fireball Arrows will be maxed out with Practiced Spellcaster already and become available at 12th level, and shoot around corners at 14th.:P Shocking Grasp arrows work well enough though for damage, but what do one say about Hold Person arrows?;) One can have a bit of fun with this build, even if a pure Wizard class would be more powerful in the end.
The_Shaman
12-05-07, 11:45 AM My vote is toward the Wood Elf as well, as they are the best archer race. +2 Dex & Str, no Con mod, and -2 to mental. Might be a bit low on the Will saves, but that can well be worth it.

Are you sure on that? I thought they were +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int. At least, that's how the d20srd entry would mean - +2str -2 int in addition to the ability mods that high/moon elves get.

Also, I'm very sceptical of the Arcane Archer 10 build. Seriously, after the 2nd level you're much better off with another gish PrC... Eldritch Knight, for example (if you have the weapon proficiencies).
JarionSilverblades
12-05-07, 12:03 PM Are you sure on that? I thought they were +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int. At least, that's how the d20srd entry would mean - +2str -2 int in addition to the ability mods that high/moon elves get.

Your right. Even in the Monster Manual, it says "in addition" to.
So wood get +2 Str, +2 Dex and -2 Con, -2 Int.

I say go with Wood Elf, +2 Dex means better Ranged and +2 Str means buy a Composite Bow ASAP. :twocents:
zook1shoe666
12-05-07, 11:09 PM My vote is toward the Wood Elf as well

i agree with the Wood Elf... they could get ugly ;)
The_Shaman
12-06-07, 07:49 AM Draconic wood elf is my idea of a woodland blender, I can tell you that ;) .
1 ton ghost
12-06-07, 12:00 PM One point in the Elf's favor is low light vision. You can't shoot what you can't see.
-i can't believe no one else mentioned this. 1/2 the time you're attacking and/or defending at night and seeing normally like day. major advantage. it's like nightvision infantry vs. regular conscripts w/out it.

-Con hit sucks, but if you're attack mode is ranged, you should be employing cover frequently. coupled w/ extra Dex, HP isn't necessarilly a problem if they don't hit your AC. push for Dex over Con almost always, especially if your Hit Die are d8-10 and your Fort is good
-the ranger issue: good loophole, if you're continuing w/ it. basic elf is favored Wiz, not Ranger or Ftr. Wood and Wild elves are excluded, but you're taking an Int pentalty and if you're Ftr, well, you know skills there. so, you're kinda' dedicated to 1 class or another given XP penalties for regular elves and the like.
Dog_O_War
12-06-07, 12:39 PM Elf. The possible benefits out-weigh the human's instant gratification.

Human's free feat? probably was going to be weapon focus. Elves get the dex bonus which is +1 AC, +1 dex. based skills, +1 general ranged attack. If you also take weapon finesse, that is +1 general attack for melee (every weapon you'd use, anyway) as well.

Human's extra skillpoints? probably going to be spot, hide, and move silently. Elves get the equivalent of one rank in hide and move silently (thanks to dex. bonus) over humans naturally, not to mention a higher cap. for skills you were probably going to take as a human anyway (spot). The question here is; do I want possible long-term versitility, even though I am probably going to put ranks in the skills an elf gets bonuses to anyway? or do I want a higher maximum number achiveable with certain skills?

A con penalty always sucks, but you have to be hit for it to matter. Also, since the fighter class has a high hit dice to begin with, it can hide some of that lost HP.

As 1 ton ghost said; night-vision. Out-shoot a human in the dark any day of the week.

Side benefits; live a long time, actually have a chance on finding secret doors, (auto-search coupled with a +2 bonus), Be man-pretty and get ALL the chicks over your human counter-part, etc...

Benefits FAR out-weigh the drawbacks. Besides, human is only for people who make builds (which require feats), not characters;) .
PyrosSilvercaster
12-06-07, 12:51 PM As far as the -2 Con goes, you could always patch that up with a couple shots of Toughness if you feel the hp loss is holding you back.
Jarsallen
12-06-07, 01:38 PM Humans.

Elves cause cancer.
Dog_O_War
12-06-07, 04:31 PM Humans.

Elves cause cancer.

Pfft. Only wood elves.

The rest give you heart disease.
Legdiwena
12-06-07, 04:36 PM Put the barbarian in medium armor and he would be a better tank for everyone to hide behind.
OpakeDragon
12-06-07, 05:30 PM I think that you should try an elf subrace I know that one of the races has a +2 to dex and a -2 to something like either cha or ..... *goes and checks* the Wild Elf - Elf traits + +2 Dex -2 Int(replaces) + Favored Sorc.(replaces)
imakuni67
12-06-07, 05:55 PM Overall it won't have a major effect mid to late game.

No matter what race you choose, it flattens out mid game unless you have some scaling ability like a half-fiend's spell-like abilities. So it's really dependant on what level you are starting.
Qube
12-07-07, 07:49 AM archer? I'dd say elfen fighter or human ranger; since your going fighter: elf with the point blank shot feat chain and the weapon focus feat
BURNMAN00TE
12-07-07, 01:27 PM I would choose human, with high wisdom and fullplate. Good for AC, Will saves and spot. Use the extra feat for zen Archery. The -2 con is really bad, every character gets hit, and your groupmembers were 1 Barbarian and the rest softies? They will need you in front.
The_Shaman
12-07-07, 02:38 PM As far as the -2 Con goes, you could always patch that up with a couple shots of Toughness if you feel the hp loss is holding you back.

Please, don't bother. If Cwar is in, Improved toughness makes it worth a feat. He's supposed to be an archer anyway. I'd probably go with elf, but it's your game.
pigknight
12-07-07, 09:51 PM Elf, cause it looks cooler. Also, Wood Elf Ranger 2/Fighter 18 because you will need some feats for melee (you will get into to melee at one point).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
m o n k 12-01-07, 07:21 PM	I'm making an archery-focused fighter, and I'm hoping to get some opinions on whether he would be more effective as an elf or a human. Any opinions out there?
IdleAltruism 12-01-07, 07:30 PM	The penalty to con hurts....well the penalty to con hurts just about everywhere. From an optimization standpoint the human is better. The Elf does have some nice abilities that fit an archer character +2 dex(handy for qualifying for feats) and +2 spot(a crossclass skill for a fighter). Human has some advantages tho, the bonus feat can be used for something like Able Learner. Along with the extra skillpoints from human you could eventually get higher ranks into crossclass skills. If you don't care about spot(not a long range archer) you get a bonus feat to mess around with and the skill points never hurt(especially for a fighter). Despite fighters having so many feats, there are just so many for archers, it can be hard to choose. Overall it won't have a major effect mid to late game.
gullas 12-01-07, 07:30 PM	I have allways thought that elves always make better ranging troops then any other races(excpet for knife throwing halflings:P ) so I'm gona vote for the elf here but the human bonus feat is tempting:rolleyes:
The_Shaman 12-01-07, 09:09 PM	IMO it depends. The human bonus feat and skill points never hurt, but elves aren't half bad themselves. Unfortunately, their affinity with bows only helps all elves know how to shoot, and doesn't much help the classes that would already have bow proficiency. Still, a Wood Elf makes a fine archer imo: bonuses to strength and dexterity, bonuses to spot, and having ranger - one of the better archer classes - as a favourite class, which allows for some good multiclassing between the two. The con penalty hurts, but then again an archer isn't supposed to be hit; it's one of the main reasons why you're shooting a bow rather than wading in with a sword.
JarionSilverblades 12-02-07, 11:06 AM	What Race of Elf? If it's Wood or Wild, I'd say elf.
Nightshade 12-02-07, 11:17 AM	IMO, Elf is only better if you're a Wood Elf (favored class: ranger) and you take your first 2 levels as Ranger - really good skills and skill points, favored enemy, track, wild empathy, 2 good saves, and rapid shot. Then you can go into fighter for as many levels as you want. If your choice is between PhB elf (favored class: wizard) and human, then human is the better choice cause you can't freely multi-class as the elf. The +2 Dex doesn't much make up for the restriction especially when you consider that humans get 1 sp/lvl, an extra bonus feat, and don't have the multi-class restriction. All of those are very useful for the archer while the other elf abilities do not specifically benefit archery (except the +2 spot but the human bonus sp's more than cancels that out). But you should still start by taking 2 levels of Ranger, IMO. I think an archer should always start with 2 levels of ranger. That's just me, though.
EvilVegan 12-02-07, 11:58 AM	Elves make better archery-clerics. Humans make better archery-fighters.
m o n k 12-02-07, 02:05 PM	But you should still start by taking 2 levels of Ranger, IMO. I think an archer should always start with 2 levels of ranger. That's just me, though. Taking 2 levels of Ranger makes sense. The only reservation I have is that he'd have to wear light or no armor to benefit from Rapid Shot. I was hoping to use medium armor, as my pc may be expected to absorb some damage fromtime to time (Our party has a barbarian and a bunch of softer characters that will need to hide behind someone with a lot of hit points.). If the pc wears medium Mithral armor, will it count as light armor for the purposes of using the Ranger's Rapid Shot ability?
Krusk 12-02-07, 02:22 PM	If the pc wears medium Mithral armor, will it count as light armor for the purposes of using the Ranger's Rapid Shot ability? Yup. The elf dex boost is cool and helps you qualify for some of the archery feats without haveing a naturally high dex. IE if using point buy you can spend for a 15 instead of a 17. letting you boost up the other stats. this is alongside the normal benefits of a high dex. A human gets an extra feat and skills, obvious benefits. I would say that they are probably about even.
RobbyPants 12-03-07, 11:00 AM	To echo what a lot of other posters already said: Normally, I'd go with human over elf, just because they're more versitle (the extra feat is awesome) and the Con penalty sucks. That being said, if you're an archer, the Con penalty isn't so bad as you're hopefully out of melee. Just remember that with light armor, a Con penalty, and d8 or so hit dice makes you a very squishy target. Now, if you're build isn't too feat intensive, then the human bonus feat isn't so important. Even still, you can probably shore a lot of that up with fighter levels. Most any feat you will need will be on the fighter's bonus list. Also, if you're going to play an elf, by all means play a wood elf. You get ranger as a favored class (which makes ranger/fighter multi-classing work well). You also get a +2 Str bonus, which works great with composite bows. If you want to throw something truely interesting into the mix, consider splashing a single level of barbarian into your build. You'll get +10 speed (which is great from a maneurverability standpoint) and the ability to rage. Rage doesn't affect your Dex score at all, and the +4 Str could be used with a big enough bow. It's kind of an odd concept, but it might be a good "panic button", as you can only use it once per day.
Bopple 12-03-07, 11:42 AM	For archery, Ferocity alternative barbarian class feature from Cityscape would be better. Human bonus feat does not make much difference, because most archery feats have BAB restriction. But then again, Able Learner is always a great choice for the bonus feat. If you are going to play a low-lvl official adventure, low-light vision is really a boon for an archer. But if the campaign is any longer, its usefulness will go away soon enough, because it can be easily mimicked by a magic item at mid lvl.
SilverFoxKnows 12-03-07, 07:13 PM	One point in the Elf's favor is low light vision. You can't shoot what you can't see.
Lord_Zeb 12-04-07, 03:37 PM	My vote is toward the Wood Elf as well, as they are the best archer race. +2 Dex & Str, no Con mod, and -2 to mental. Might be a bit low on the Will saves, but that can well be worth it. Scout 4/Ranger 16 is the best Archer build though. The Archery spells in the splat-books help here. (Do not dump Wisdom here.) Ranger 2/Fighter 18 could work well though, even though I would recommend some PrCing. Remember Low-light vision and Spot are very important, as you will have great troubles at shooting at things you cannot see. (Blind-fight feat doesn't help for ranged attacks.) For a spectacular High Elf archer, go Scout 4/Wizard 6, and then take Arcane Archer 10. Your Fireball Arrows will be maxed out with Practiced Spellcaster already and become available at 12th level, and shoot around corners at 14th.:P Shocking Grasp arrows work well enough though for damage, but what do one say about Hold Person arrows?;) One can have a bit of fun with this build, even if a pure Wizard class would be more powerful in the end.
The_Shaman 12-05-07, 11:45 AM	My vote is toward the Wood Elf as well, as they are the best archer race. +2 Dex & Str, no Con mod, and -2 to mental. Might be a bit low on the Will saves, but that can well be worth it. Are you sure on that? I thought they were +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int. At least, that's how the d20srd entry would mean - +2str -2 int in addition to the ability mods that high/moon elves get. Also, I'm very sceptical of the Arcane Archer 10 build. Seriously, after the 2nd level you're much better off with another gish PrC... Eldritch Knight, for example (if you have the weapon proficiencies).
JarionSilverblades 12-05-07, 12:03 PM	Are you sure on that? I thought they were +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int. At least, that's how the d20srd entry would mean - +2str -2 int in addition to the ability mods that high/moon elves get. Your right. Even in the Monster Manual, it says "in addition" to. So wood get +2 Str, +2 Dex and -2 Con, -2 Int. I say go with Wood Elf, +2 Dex means better Ranged and +2 Str means buy a Composite Bow ASAP. :twocents:
zook1shoe666 12-05-07, 11:09 PM	My vote is toward the Wood Elf as well i agree with the Wood Elf... they could get ugly ;)
The_Shaman 12-06-07, 07:49 AM	Draconic wood elf is my idea of a woodland blender, I can tell you that ;) .
1 ton ghost 12-06-07, 12:00 PM	One point in the Elf's favor is low light vision. You can't shoot what you can't see. -i can't believe no one else mentioned this. 1/2 the time you're attacking and/or defending at night and seeing normally like day. major advantage. it's like nightvision infantry vs. regular conscripts w/out it. -Con hit sucks, but if you're attack mode is ranged, you should be employing cover frequently. coupled w/ extra Dex, HP isn't necessarilly a problem if they don't hit your AC. push for Dex over Con almost always, especially if your Hit Die are d8-10 and your Fort is good -the ranger issue: good loophole, if you're continuing w/ it. basic elf is favored Wiz, not Ranger or Ftr. Wood and Wild elves are excluded, but you're taking an Int pentalty and if you're Ftr, well, you know skills there. so, you're kinda' dedicated to 1 class or another given XP penalties for regular elves and the like.
Dog_O_War 12-06-07, 12:39 PM	Elf. The possible benefits out-weigh the human's instant gratification. Human's free feat? probably was going to be weapon focus. Elves get the dex bonus which is +1 AC, +1 dex. based skills, +1 general ranged attack. If you also take weapon finesse, that is +1 general attack for melee (every weapon you'd use, anyway) as well. Human's extra skillpoints? probably going to be spot, hide, and move silently. Elves get the equivalent of one rank in hide and move silently (thanks to dex. bonus) over humans naturally, not to mention a higher cap. for skills you were probably going to take as a human anyway (spot). The question here is; do I want possible long-term versitility, even though I am probably going to put ranks in the skills an elf gets bonuses to anyway? or do I want a higher maximum number achiveable with certain skills? A con penalty always sucks, but you have to be hit for it to matter. Also, since the fighter class has a high hit dice to begin with, it can hide some of that lost HP. As 1 ton ghost said; night-vision. Out-shoot a human in the dark any day of the week. Side benefits; live a long time, actually have a chance on finding secret doors, (auto-search coupled with a +2 bonus), Be man-pretty and get ALL the chicks over your human counter-part, etc... Benefits FAR out-weigh the drawbacks. Besides, human is only for people who make builds (which require feats), not characters;) .
PyrosSilvercaster 12-06-07, 12:51 PM	As far as the -2 Con goes, you could always patch that up with a couple shots of Toughness if you feel the hp loss is holding you back.
Jarsallen 12-06-07, 01:38 PM	Humans. Elves cause cancer.
Dog_O_War 12-06-07, 04:31 PM	Humans. Elves cause cancer. Pfft. Only wood elves. The rest give you heart disease.
Legdiwena 12-06-07, 04:36 PM	Put the barbarian in medium armor and he would be a better tank for everyone to hide behind.
OpakeDragon 12-06-07, 05:30 PM	I think that you should try an elf subrace I know that one of the races has a +2 to dex and a -2 to something like either cha or ..... goes and checks the Wild Elf - Elf traits + +2 Dex -2 Int(replaces) + Favored Sorc.(replaces)
imakuni67 12-06-07, 05:55 PM	Overall it won't have a major effect mid to late game. No matter what race you choose, it flattens out mid game unless you have some scaling ability like a half-fiend's spell-like abilities. So it's really dependant on what level you are starting.
Qube 12-07-07, 07:49 AM	archer? I'dd say elfen fighter or human ranger; since your going fighter: elf with the point blank shot feat chain and the weapon focus feat
BURNMAN00TE 12-07-07, 01:27 PM	I would choose human, with high wisdom and fullplate. Good for AC, Will saves and spot. Use the extra feat for zen Archery. The -2 con is really bad, every character gets hit, and your groupmembers were 1 Barbarian and the rest softies? They will need you in front.
The_Shaman 12-07-07, 02:38 PM	As far as the -2 Con goes, you could always patch that up with a couple shots of Toughness if you feel the hp loss is holding you back. Please, don't bother. If Cwar is in, Improved toughness makes it worth a feat. He's supposed to be an archer anyway. I'd probably go with elf, but it's your game.
pigknight 12-07-07, 09:51 PM	Elf, cause it looks cooler. Also, Wood Elf Ranger 2/Fighter 18 because you will need some feats for melee (you will get into to melee at one point).