Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sliced_Mustard 04-27-07, 07:50 PM	I realize this is something that may have been asked when 3e first came out and changed a bunch of things, but what is currently the situation with elves and afterlife? used to be it was incredibly hard to bring them back to life because they had spirits not souls and they couldn't be raised like everyone else. a rod of resurrection could bring them back, but at siginificant cost of charges by comparison to other races. then there's some peoples perspective about elves physically moving on to their afterlife when they reach their maximum age. they don't die so much as they just move on to the next world. the reason I ask concerns all the new & wonderful rules concerning faustian pacts in Fiendish Codex II. can an elf sell his soul if he doesn't have one? if they do have souls now, is there an explanation for why things have changed or will it be something campy like the way FR changed the planes and said this is the way its always been as a retroactive thing.
SD 04-27-07, 07:56 PM	Elves die and come back like other races according to the Core rules. I would actually find it more campy if your campaign suddenly changed from 2e to 3e without the "everything's always been like this" explanation. Your characters were walking down the street one day and suddenly said "Hey, an apple cart, let's WHOOOOA EVERYTHING'S DIFFERENT MULTICLASSING MONSTER RACES SORCERERS NUMBERS GO UP NOT DOWN HEY! get some apples." or what?
Silvercrys 04-27-07, 07:57 PM	3e (including 3.5) takes the stance that elves have souls; they are treated normally for resurrection/raise dead/etc.; and they have always been this way. In fact, most creatures (including elves) are treated the same as humans for all of these purposes. About the afterlife... It's never really mentioned, as far as I know, but most assume that rather than "dying" permanantly they move on to whatever plane suits their alignment. Ex: A Lawful Good person would go to the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, while a Lawful Evil one would go the Nine Hells of Baator. EDIT: Ninja'd
SD 04-27-07, 07:59 PM	They discuss it for a bit in Complete Divine (Chapter 6, The Divine World), but I don't know if anything later or in certain campaign settings trumps that.
Silvercrys 04-27-07, 08:01 PM	That's probably where I pulled it from then. I haven't looked in that book for a while because I have all the important parts memorized ;)
Sliced_Mustard 04-27-07, 08:04 PM	Elves die and come back like other races according to the Core rules. I would actually find it more campy if your campaign suddenly changed from 2e to 3e without the "everything's always been like this" explanation. Your characters were walking down the street one day and suddenly said "Hey, an apple cart, let's WHOOOOA EVERYTHING'S DIFFERENT MULTICLASSING MONSTER RACES SORCERERS NUMBERS GO UP NOT DOWN HEY! get some apples." or what? significant rules changes on things like this between editions always irk me with the treat it as "this is how its always been" rule because if I played through one edition to the next and the older rules made a difference in how things played out in the past, how do I explain why it works differently now? player: my elf died and couldn't be raised in 2e, how come player2's elf can be raised just because we're playing 3.x rules now? he should have to make a new character too!! :mad: DM: because. live with it. :rolleyes:
Shadowhowler 04-27-07, 08:36 PM	significant rules changes on things like this between editions always irk me with the treat it as "this is how its always been" rule because if I played through one edition to the next and the older rules made a difference in how things played out in the past, how do I explain why it works differently now? player: my elf died and couldn't be raised in 2e, how come player2's elf can be raised just because we're playing 3.x rules now? he should have to make a new character too!! :mad: DM: because. live with it. :rolleyes: Well, really, you almost have to treat it as a new game. I was going threw my binder o characters yesterday, all full of 2nd edd characters... and almost half of them really would be near impossable to convert to 3.5 anyway. So... new game... new rules... new characters.
Old Sparky 04-27-07, 08:51 PM	all full of 2nd edd characters... and almost half of them really would be near impossable to convert to 3.5 anyway. No such thing as impossible... ...you just need to accept certain sacrifices to fit into the new rules. ============================= As for changes in rules between new and older editions, you kinda have to suspend your disbelief on some things and turn a blind eye to the rest that doesn't have an immediate impact on your current gaming. Also, house rule stuff as you deem necessary to make the differences more tolerable.
The Ubbergeek 04-27-07, 08:52 PM	But then, it's a good time to try concepts that you could not do with the past editions. ;)
Shadowhowler 04-28-07, 12:25 AM	But then, it's a good time to try concepts that you could not do with the past editions. ;) That is a very good point. There are things I miss about 2nd edd, and there are things I like about 3.5, thats why I see it as a new game. There are defenitly some things you can make now you could not make before, differant character ideas that will work now that would not before. :)
Old Sparky 04-28-07, 01:24 AM	I don't see it as a new game. I see a new campaign as a new game... I didn't ask them to go and change all the rules and stop producing new content for the old rules... ...and I think it would be downright rude for them or anyone else to expect me (or other gamers, for that matter) to end a campaign because new management comes in and changes the rules. Nope, sorry. Too much invested in the campaign on both my side and the players' characters. Bite the bullet where you can accept the changes, house rule the stuff that doesn't fit with the old flavor you want to maintain. Its called Rule 0. Don't be afraid to use it. Hell, I still won't allow certain race & class combinations. Paladins may have opened up, but I won't allow just any LG character to be one. Even though I may have conceded to that whole halfling monk thing, I will never allow dwarven wizards... and gnome barbarians are right out. That's right, racial prejudice and class restrictions run rampant in my world!! MUH-HAHAHAHA!!! :evillaugh
Shadowhowler 04-28-07, 02:50 AM	I don't see it as a new game. I see a new campaign as a new game... I didn't ask them to go and change all the rules and stop producing new content for the old rules... ...and I think it would be downright rude for them or anyone else to expect me (or other gamers, for that matter) to end a campaign because new management comes in and changes the rules. Nope, sorry. Too much invested in the campaign on both my side and the players' characters. Bite the bullet where you can accept the changes, house rule the stuff that doesn't fit with the old flavor you want to maintain. Its called Rule 0. Don't be afraid to use it. Hell, I still won't allow certain race & class combinations. Paladins may have opened up, but I won't allow just any LG character to be one. Even though I may have conceded to that whole halfling monk thing, I will never allow dwarven wizards... and gnome barbarians are right out. That's right, racial prejudice and class restrictions run rampant in my world!! MUH-HAHAHAHA!!! :evillaugh You could always do what I did for 7 years, and NOT use the new stuff. I mean, if your running a sucsessfull long running campaign, and these new rules come out, who says you have to use them? No one. Keep going the way you have been... it's easier, and you don't need to buy all new stuff. I ignored 3.0 entirly and only 6 months ago got around to playing 3.5, and then only becuase I moved... so all my old gaming buddies and thus my old campaigns were no longer avalble. If I had not moved, I still would be playing/running those old games and quite happily.
Jaxgaret 04-28-07, 02:59 AM	Here's a simple solution: Treat 2e Elves and 3e Elves as two different races. Bam, problem solved. Most of the core races have changed significantly from their earlier-edition counterparts; it would be wise to treat them all like this.
Naderion 04-28-07, 08:04 AM	Or just make your own home rule, that's even easier.
Grummush_Rogue 04-28-07, 09:03 AM	elves would be the same as other races, D+D got a lot less sterotipical like how all elves live in woods. now their more of a common thing than anything else, so the ressurection should be the same. i mean all races COULD have different resurrection, maybe even should. but for now, its just bringing ur soul back.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-29-07, 01:04 PM	It's also a question of the rationalization not holding up anymore. In old-E, there was the underlying attitude of, "Oh, humans get nothing, but we'll give demihumans a whole lot of abilities and "balance" this by imposing level limits. But elves are still too good... so we'll make them hard to resurrect!" Since 3E doesn't give humans nothing and everyone else a whole lot, neither "balance" mechanism (not that they ever really worked) is needed, and thus both went the way of the dodo.
Luis_Dragunov 04-29-07, 02:24 PM	I would actually find it more campy if your campaign suddenly changed from 2e to 3e without the "everything's always been like this" explanation. Your characters were walking down the street one day and suddenly said "Hey, an apple cart, let's WHOOOOA EVERYTHING'S DIFFERENT MULTICLASSING MONSTER RACES SORCERERS NUMBERS GO UP NOT DOWN HEY! get some apples." or what? I laughed silly over this. Have a cookie, my good man. :cookie: Also, yes, elves can be raised from the dead as any other creature, when they die they a) go the plane of their patron deity or b) go to the plane of their alignment. They live, I think, maximum around 800 years or so and then they die. As for worlds and the change in systems.. why is it even an issue? I mean, IC, it's all the same. Characters don't know if they have AC or THAC0, just if they're hard or easy to hit; they don't know if they are multiclassing between sorcerer and fighter, merely that they are good at spells and fighting.
Shadowfax7 04-29-07, 04:37 PM	IMC (3.5) I house rule that elves are immortal (migrating to some mysterious land after venerable age) and to balance it out can't be Raised, Resurrected or True Resurrected. It has worked fine for 3 years.
Enderlaand 05-01-07, 04:01 PM	Elves die and come back like other races according to the Core rules. I would actually find it more campy if your campaign suddenly changed from 2e to 3e without the "everything's always been like this" explanation. Your characters were walking down the street one day and suddenly said "Hey, an apple cart, let's WHOOOOA EVERYTHING'S DIFFERENT MULTICLASSING MONSTER RACES SORCERERS NUMBERS GO UP NOT DOWN HEY! get some apples." or what? I've never thought about characters being aware of an upgrade to the system. That was funny.
Another Gnome 05-01-07, 06:38 PM	IMC (3.5) I house rule that elves are immortal (migrating to some mysterious land after venerable age) and to balance it out can't be Raised, Resurrected or True Resurrected. Erm... it is your game of course, but I don't quite see how removing the ability to reverse a common gameplay condition (death) that happens to every character often multiple times, balances a singular event (old age) that hardly ever becomes relevant to any character.
Shadowfax7 05-01-07, 09:24 PM	Erm... it is your game of course, but I don't quite see how removing the ability to reverse a common gameplay condition (death) that happens to every character often multiple times, balances a singular event (old age) that hardly ever becomes relevant to any character. Maybe characters die too many times in your campaign . . . I have had 1 player's Elven character continue from 1st level w/o death in my previous 10 year campaign. Presently, 2 players IMC haven't died since the start of my 3 year campaign. As far as the immortality, its a RPing thing that certain players like. Balancing wasn't the correct word to use.
Old Sparky 05-02-07, 01:17 AM	Maybe characters die too many times in your campaign . . . I have had 1 player's Elven character continue from 1st level w/o death in my previous 10 year campaign. Presently, 2 players IMC haven't died since the start of my 3 year campaign. As far as the immortality, its a RPing thing that certain players like. Balancing wasn't the correct word to use. Yes, in your case, "trade off" would have been better than "balancing," but I like your idea... and haven't had an issue with rampant character death in my games. Rempant rezzes are kind of a game-breaking issue for lots of people in my experience. I don't think it should be impossible to bring the dead back to life, but when someone says "My character died ten times in that dungeon before we found our way out," I think to myself, self... don't play D&D with those peoples.
Another Gnome 05-02-07, 03:20 AM	I've never had (or seen as a DM) a PC get raised more than twice before getting bored of dying, but the point is that as long as there are instant death effects in the game, you will need a way to reverse that, or do some tweaking to death rules. Granted, I prefer my own games gritty, and my opinion is rather biased when to me it's perfectly normal for a party to have none of its original members or even their replacements left after a while. Which is what happened in the last campaign... and was rather hilarious when we realized the characters were carrying on with tasks started by people none of them had ever met. :D Yeah, going off-topic... I'll just stop now.
Shadowhowler 05-02-07, 05:52 AM	Not alot of character death in my games either. I think in over 15 years of gaming, I've only had about 5 characters die. In the same time DMing/Storytelling, I have only killed about 7-8 or so. The D&D culture seems to have characters dieing left and right... but I've never understood that. I prefer to work like hell to keep my characters alive... and if they do die, normaly I left em RIP and make a new character. Differant strokes I guess.
chucky 05-02-07, 07:58 AM	Hmm as far as i know the reason elves could not be raised befor was because they auto reincarnated on death. You could use a wish spell to get one back by riping its soul out of the squirrel it was in and putting it back into the elf body.
Shadowfax7 05-02-07, 09:09 AM	Hmm as far as i know the reason elves could not be raised befor was because they auto reincarnated on death. You could use a wish spell to get one back by riping its soul out of the squirrel it was in and putting it back into the elf body. Never heard of this in any edition of D&D, sounds like it was a house rule.
RobbyPants 05-02-07, 09:25 AM	Elves die and come back like other races according to the Core rules. I would actually find it more campy if your campaign suddenly changed from 2e to 3e without the "everything's always been like this" explanation. Your characters were walking down the street one day and suddenly said "Hey, an apple cart, let's WHOOOOA EVERYTHING'S DIFFERENT MULTICLASSING MONSTER RACES SORCERERS NUMBERS GO UP NOT DOWN HEY! get some apples." or what? :rofl: Priceless! Something similar I saw was the sudden 3.0 to 3.5 conversion here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html). I forgot about elves being different in 2E until this thread. But, yeah, as everyone else has already said, there's no difference in 3E anymore.