Elf weapon familiarity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elf weapon familiarity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RobbyPants
06-19-07, 12:03 PM I've always liked the flavor of the weapon familiarity mechanic. Dwarves and gnomes get it per the PHB. So why not elves?

How do you feel about the idea of removeing the martial weapon proficiencies from elves, and replacing it with weapon familiarity (for exotic elven weapons, of course)?

I know certain thigs are bound to change. Certain PrC prereqs will be effected a bit. Now an elf wizard won't automatically qualify for Abjurant Champion. However, it might help with Exotic Weapon Master.

Has anyone tried this before? Any other issues I might be missing? :confused:
AAB
06-19-07, 12:40 PM i'd rather keep the elves with auto-proficiencies instead of weapon familiarity. it keeps more with the flavor of their favored class being wizard. otherwise half the elves in the universe wouldn't be proficient with the longsword anymore, making their "love of swordplay" nonexistent.
BigJohn42
06-19-07, 01:01 PM I think that the elven-specific exotic weapons (courtblade, thinblade, etc) should have familiarity for elven characters, but I don't see why that would affect the racial proficiencies that they get.
The_Vortex
06-19-07, 02:31 PM I think that the elven-specific exotic weapons (courtblade, thinblade, etc) should have familiarity for elven characters, but I don't see why that would affect the racial proficiencies that they get.
I second that.. those weapons are certainly not good enough for a feat!
Nat_20
06-19-07, 02:40 PM So remove the Proficiency with Longsword, Shortsword, Longbow, and Shortbow and gain Elven Court, Long, and Short Blades?

No thanks, I like me Longbows... Then again the longblades would be neat with my Swashbuckler...

How about this, and first level, choose which group you are proficient with, to show that different elven groups practice with different weapons... One sacrifices archery for swordsmanship...
JohnOSpencer
06-19-07, 04:25 PM In the campaign I'm working on, I've removed the automatic proficiencies and replaced them with familiarities. Any elf proficient with Short Sword can use a Thinblade, ditto for longsword/slimblade, greatsword/courtblade and any elf proficient with a bow can use an Elven Bow(which is basically a slightly upgraded longbow). I think it makes no sense for a wizard(for example) to be proficient with all those weapons, they'd spend more time in arcane studies. Though, I hadn't thought of the whole elven 'love of swordplay'. I might have to tweak it.
Shadowfax7
06-19-07, 08:56 PM In point systems I have seen, an Exotic Weapon Proficiency is worth 2 points and a Martial Weapon Proficiency is worth 1 point (Simple Weapons are worth 1/2 point).

Thus an Exotic weapon is worth 2 Martial weapons.
jaelis
06-19-07, 09:27 PM My house rule is that elves keep the martial weapon proficiencies, but treat the thinblade and lightblade as martial weapons. Mostly because I felt that martial elves (who would get the swords and bows anyway) were getting gypped.
AAB
06-20-07, 12:25 AM it's not so much leaving the elf warriors behind as giving the spellcasters something special. if you take away the free proficiencies then the wizards don't get anything to differentiate themselves from any other wizard, and if you give them the exotic proficiencies as martial then you're effectively giving elf warriors 3 more weapons to use than a human. hell, even dwarves (who are much more martially focused than the elves, IMO) only get to treat 2 exotic weapons as martial.
Mentar
06-20-07, 02:47 AM I seem to remember something stating that racial weapons (weapons listed as "race" weapon name) gave weapon familiarity to the race it was named after.
It might have been a 3.0 book however.

I do remember that it specifically named gnomish hooked hammer and orcish double axe under the examples, along with a goblinoid weapon I believe.

Anyone remember something like that?
AAB
06-20-07, 02:53 AM you can take a feat, improved weapon familiarity, to become proficient with all weapons with your race in the weapon's name (ie. gnome hooked hammer, gnome tortoise blade, gnome quickrazor, dwarven waraxe, dwarven urgrosh, dwarven buckler-axe, dwarven double spear, dwarven warpike, orc double axe, elven courtblade, elven thinblade, elven lightblade, etc.)
Mentar
06-20-07, 03:07 AM Ah, that's probably it, thanks.

That's another thing that could be done instead of taking away weapon proficiencies from most classes and giving them to the ones that may not need them.

I would rather have an elven wizard with free proficiency in short and long bows then having to take a level in a martial weapons class to get "special" weapons.

If you really want to add the familiarity to elven fighting classes, give character options where they give up proficiency in chosen martial weapons to gain the racial ones. Perhaps give up 3 weapons to gain 2 racial proficiencies.
Jeriaus
06-20-07, 09:50 AM Improved Weapon Familiarity doenst give proficiency, it lets you treats the exotic racial weapons as martial.
Peregrine_Wolf
06-20-07, 02:32 PM I'm all for the elves and them having neat new shiny pokey things to play with, but then the dwarves would complain, and not make anymore shiny pokey things for the elves..........or give the elves anymore shiny rocks. I also say go for the Ranger kinda thing(which should be elf favored class anyways IMO) and have them choose Archery Racial Weapon Familiarity, or Melee Racial Weapon Familiarity. ARWF and MRWF.....how do you pronoucne those?
LoreleiIsildae
06-21-07, 12:07 AM I second that.. those weapons are certainly not good enough for a feat!

I don't know... The Elven Courtblade is kinda sweet. 18-20/x2 crit range, dmg 1d10 for medium characters, and a two-handed weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse. Bad ass, if you ask me.
Yareb
06-21-07, 12:36 AM I don't know... The Elven Courtblade is kinda sweet. 18-20/x2 crit range, dmg 1d10 for medium characters, and a two-handed weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse. Bad ass, if you ask me.

Bad ass but overpowered if you ask me. If they were familiar with the courtblade, every freaking elf PC would be walking around doing massive damage. Who wouldn't turn down a 18-20 crit range, 1d10 damage, and the chance to benefit from weapon finesse. I think that the elves are good as they are.
jaelis
06-21-07, 01:07 AM Bad ass but overpowered if you ask me. If they were familiar with the courtblade, every freaking elf PC would be walking around doing massive damage. Who wouldn't turn down a 18-20 crit range, 1d10 damage, and the chance to benefit from weapon finesse. I think that the elves are good as they are.

While I basically agree and think that the thinblade and lightblade are enough, I'd say you're overstating the case a bit. I mean, the courtblade only does a half-point more damage than the falchion. You do get weapon finesse, but to really take advantage of that requires some pretty fancy character building.
jaelis
06-21-07, 01:18 AM if you give them the exotic proficiencies as martial then you're effectively giving elf warriors 3 more weapons to use than a human.

So what does an elf warrior normally get compared to a human? Dex vs Con is a complete wash unless you set up a really tricky build (and humans will always have an edge on tricky builds with their bonus feat, extra skills, and favored class). Bonuses on spot and listen? So you're at +1 instead of -1... yay. Low light vision... nice enough, but I wouldn't spend a feat on it. Trance? Hooray, you get to spend more time on watch with your crappy spot and listen. Magic immunities and bonuses... those are probably your best feature, but I'd say a human would get as much use or more out of the Iron Will feat.

I like elves just fine. They make great rogues and fine clerics and wizards. But I really think the PHB elf makes a pretty weak melee warrior. That may or may not bother you, but if it does, the extra weapons make them a bit more reasonable.
AAB
06-21-07, 01:38 AM that's why i argue against giving them the three exotic proficiencies - it turns them into melee warriors. i don't think that an elf should be able to stand for long in melee against an orc, let alone a human. sure, if they want to specialize in combat there are more options for them. they are just not predisposed towards melee combat from character creation.
LoreleiIsildae
06-21-07, 04:34 AM Bad ass but overpowered if you ask me. If they were familiar with the courtblade, every freaking elf PC would be walking around doing massive damage. Who wouldn't turn down a 18-20 crit range, 1d10 damage, and the chance to benefit from weapon finesse. I think that the elves are good as they are.

Hence why I think EWP for the Courtblade is necessary.
Kurama Youko
06-21-07, 11:03 AM I thought Elves did have it, doesnt it say somewhere in Races of the Wild that Elves can treat those Elven Thinblades and Courtblades as martial weapons instead of exotic weapons, wouldn't this mean that after taking one lv of a class that offers martial weapon proficeny that elves would be proficent with those weapons?
AAB
06-21-07, 11:21 AM I thought Elves did have it, doesnt it say somewhere in Races of the Wild that Elves can treat those Elven Thinblades and Courtblades as martial weapons instead of exotic weapons, wouldn't this mean that after taking one lv of a class that offers martial weapon proficeny that elves would be proficent with those weapons?

no, but they'd only have to take one little feat to become proficient in all of them. hence why i don't think they need to be auto-proficient.
RobbyPants
06-21-07, 03:07 PM The only reason I'd considered this was to make the mechanic similar to dwarves and gnomes. But, as was mentioned, there's a feat that grants familiarity, anyway...

I don't know... The Elven Courtblade is kinda sweet. 18-20/x2 crit range, dmg 1d10 for medium characters, and a two-handed weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse. Bad ass, if you ask me.
Well, it would put an end to the age old elves and greatswords debate. :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobbyPants 06-19-07, 12:03 PM	I've always liked the flavor of the weapon familiarity mechanic. Dwarves and gnomes get it per the PHB. So why not elves? How do you feel about the idea of removeing the martial weapon proficiencies from elves, and replacing it with weapon familiarity (for exotic elven weapons, of course)? I know certain thigs are bound to change. Certain PrC prereqs will be effected a bit. Now an elf wizard won't automatically qualify for Abjurant Champion. However, it might help with Exotic Weapon Master. Has anyone tried this before? Any other issues I might be missing? :confused:
AAB 06-19-07, 12:40 PM	i'd rather keep the elves with auto-proficiencies instead of weapon familiarity. it keeps more with the flavor of their favored class being wizard. otherwise half the elves in the universe wouldn't be proficient with the longsword anymore, making their "love of swordplay" nonexistent.
BigJohn42 06-19-07, 01:01 PM	I think that the elven-specific exotic weapons (courtblade, thinblade, etc) should have familiarity for elven characters, but I don't see why that would affect the racial proficiencies that they get.
The_Vortex 06-19-07, 02:31 PM	I think that the elven-specific exotic weapons (courtblade, thinblade, etc) should have familiarity for elven characters, but I don't see why that would affect the racial proficiencies that they get. I second that.. those weapons are certainly not good enough for a feat!
Nat_20 06-19-07, 02:40 PM	So remove the Proficiency with Longsword, Shortsword, Longbow, and Shortbow and gain Elven Court, Long, and Short Blades? No thanks, I like me Longbows... Then again the longblades would be neat with my Swashbuckler... How about this, and first level, choose which group you are proficient with, to show that different elven groups practice with different weapons... One sacrifices archery for swordsmanship...
JohnOSpencer 06-19-07, 04:25 PM	In the campaign I'm working on, I've removed the automatic proficiencies and replaced them with familiarities. Any elf proficient with Short Sword can use a Thinblade, ditto for longsword/slimblade, greatsword/courtblade and any elf proficient with a bow can use an Elven Bow(which is basically a slightly upgraded longbow). I think it makes no sense for a wizard(for example) to be proficient with all those weapons, they'd spend more time in arcane studies. Though, I hadn't thought of the whole elven 'love of swordplay'. I might have to tweak it.
Shadowfax7 06-19-07, 08:56 PM	In point systems I have seen, an Exotic Weapon Proficiency is worth 2 points and a Martial Weapon Proficiency is worth 1 point (Simple Weapons are worth 1/2 point). Thus an Exotic weapon is worth 2 Martial weapons.
jaelis 06-19-07, 09:27 PM	My house rule is that elves keep the martial weapon proficiencies, but treat the thinblade and lightblade as martial weapons. Mostly because I felt that martial elves (who would get the swords and bows anyway) were getting gypped.
AAB 06-20-07, 12:25 AM	it's not so much leaving the elf warriors behind as giving the spellcasters something special. if you take away the free proficiencies then the wizards don't get anything to differentiate themselves from any other wizard, and if you give them the exotic proficiencies as martial then you're effectively giving elf warriors 3 more weapons to use than a human. hell, even dwarves (who are much more martially focused than the elves, IMO) only get to treat 2 exotic weapons as martial.
Mentar 06-20-07, 02:47 AM	I seem to remember something stating that racial weapons (weapons listed as "race" weapon name) gave weapon familiarity to the race it was named after. It might have been a 3.0 book however. I do remember that it specifically named gnomish hooked hammer and orcish double axe under the examples, along with a goblinoid weapon I believe. Anyone remember something like that?
AAB 06-20-07, 02:53 AM	you can take a feat, improved weapon familiarity, to become proficient with all weapons with your race in the weapon's name (ie. gnome hooked hammer, gnome tortoise blade, gnome quickrazor, dwarven waraxe, dwarven urgrosh, dwarven buckler-axe, dwarven double spear, dwarven warpike, orc double axe, elven courtblade, elven thinblade, elven lightblade, etc.)
Mentar 06-20-07, 03:07 AM	Ah, that's probably it, thanks. That's another thing that could be done instead of taking away weapon proficiencies from most classes and giving them to the ones that may not need them. I would rather have an elven wizard with free proficiency in short and long bows then having to take a level in a martial weapons class to get "special" weapons. If you really want to add the familiarity to elven fighting classes, give character options where they give up proficiency in chosen martial weapons to gain the racial ones. Perhaps give up 3 weapons to gain 2 racial proficiencies.
Jeriaus 06-20-07, 09:50 AM	Improved Weapon Familiarity doenst give proficiency, it lets you treats the exotic racial weapons as martial.
Peregrine_Wolf 06-20-07, 02:32 PM	I'm all for the elves and them having neat new shiny pokey things to play with, but then the dwarves would complain, and not make anymore shiny pokey things for the elves..........or give the elves anymore shiny rocks. I also say go for the Ranger kinda thing(which should be elf favored class anyways IMO) and have them choose Archery Racial Weapon Familiarity, or Melee Racial Weapon Familiarity. ARWF and MRWF.....how do you pronoucne those?
LoreleiIsildae 06-21-07, 12:07 AM	I second that.. those weapons are certainly not good enough for a feat! I don't know... The Elven Courtblade is kinda sweet. 18-20/x2 crit range, dmg 1d10 for medium characters, and a two-handed weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse. Bad ass, if you ask me.
Yareb 06-21-07, 12:36 AM	I don't know... The Elven Courtblade is kinda sweet. 18-20/x2 crit range, dmg 1d10 for medium characters, and a two-handed weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse. Bad ass, if you ask me. Bad ass but overpowered if you ask me. If they were familiar with the courtblade, every freaking elf PC would be walking around doing massive damage. Who wouldn't turn down a 18-20 crit range, 1d10 damage, and the chance to benefit from weapon finesse. I think that the elves are good as they are.
jaelis 06-21-07, 01:07 AM	Bad ass but overpowered if you ask me. If they were familiar with the courtblade, every freaking elf PC would be walking around doing massive damage. Who wouldn't turn down a 18-20 crit range, 1d10 damage, and the chance to benefit from weapon finesse. I think that the elves are good as they are. While I basically agree and think that the thinblade and lightblade are enough, I'd say you're overstating the case a bit. I mean, the courtblade only does a half-point more damage than the falchion. You do get weapon finesse, but to really take advantage of that requires some pretty fancy character building.
jaelis 06-21-07, 01:18 AM	if you give them the exotic proficiencies as martial then you're effectively giving elf warriors 3 more weapons to use than a human. So what does an elf warrior normally get compared to a human? Dex vs Con is a complete wash unless you set up a really tricky build (and humans will always have an edge on tricky builds with their bonus feat, extra skills, and favored class). Bonuses on spot and listen? So you're at +1 instead of -1... yay. Low light vision... nice enough, but I wouldn't spend a feat on it. Trance? Hooray, you get to spend more time on watch with your crappy spot and listen. Magic immunities and bonuses... those are probably your best feature, but I'd say a human would get as much use or more out of the Iron Will feat. I like elves just fine. They make great rogues and fine clerics and wizards. But I really think the PHB elf makes a pretty weak melee warrior. That may or may not bother you, but if it does, the extra weapons make them a bit more reasonable.
AAB 06-21-07, 01:38 AM	that's why i argue against giving them the three exotic proficiencies - it turns them into melee warriors. i don't think that an elf should be able to stand for long in melee against an orc, let alone a human. sure, if they want to specialize in combat there are more options for them. they are just not predisposed towards melee combat from character creation.
LoreleiIsildae 06-21-07, 04:34 AM	Bad ass but overpowered if you ask me. If they were familiar with the courtblade, every freaking elf PC would be walking around doing massive damage. Who wouldn't turn down a 18-20 crit range, 1d10 damage, and the chance to benefit from weapon finesse. I think that the elves are good as they are. Hence why I think EWP for the Courtblade is necessary.
Kurama Youko 06-21-07, 11:03 AM	I thought Elves did have it, doesnt it say somewhere in Races of the Wild that Elves can treat those Elven Thinblades and Courtblades as martial weapons instead of exotic weapons, wouldn't this mean that after taking one lv of a class that offers martial weapon proficeny that elves would be proficent with those weapons?
AAB 06-21-07, 11:21 AM	I thought Elves did have it, doesnt it say somewhere in Races of the Wild that Elves can treat those Elven Thinblades and Courtblades as martial weapons instead of exotic weapons, wouldn't this mean that after taking one lv of a class that offers martial weapon proficeny that elves would be proficent with those weapons? no, but they'd only have to take one little feat to become proficient in all of them. hence why i don't think they need to be auto-proficient.
RobbyPants 06-21-07, 03:07 PM	The only reason I'd considered this was to make the mechanic similar to dwarves and gnomes. But, as was mentioned, there's a feat that grants familiarity, anyway... I don't know... The Elven Courtblade is kinda sweet. 18-20/x2 crit range, dmg 1d10 for medium characters, and a two-handed weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse. Bad ass, if you ask me. Well, it would put an end to the age old elves and greatswords debate. :P