Elves and sleep [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elves and sleep [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
homercles
03-19-07, 01:48 PM This might be a basic question (and one that might not have much practical application), but my group could not come to a consensus on it, so I told them that I would post here and see what you all think. In the PHB, it states that an Elf has "Immunity to magic sleep effects...", does this pertain to just sleep spells/spell effects and Spell-Like abilities, or to supernatural / extraordinary / natural abilities as well?

Thanks
Scott
WinterPsionic
03-19-07, 01:58 PM This might be a basic question (and one that might not have much practical application), but my group could not come to a consensus on it, so I told them that I would post here and see what you all think. In the PHB, it states that an Elf has "Immunity to magic sleep effects...", does this pertain to just sleep spells/spell effects and Spell-Like abilities, or to supernatural / extraordinary / natural abilities as well?

Thanks
Scott

Anything of a magical nature, so this would include most Su/Ex ablities that come to mind, knockout poisons from bites and stings bay be a bit different, this is up to the DM.
Treymordin
03-19-07, 03:24 PM Natural sleep things like posions would get them.
LordRosencrantz
03-19-07, 03:24 PM Hmmm... I would say any spell/spell like effect would not have an effect. In addition to normal sleep. This doesn't include illusions that may hypnotize the elf. I guess you couldn't hypno an elf to sleep but you could just make them stand there.

Footnote: I'm using the term hypnotize loosely.
Treymordin
03-19-07, 03:25 PM Very much so is hte term being used loosley
Ikyotojin
03-19-07, 03:34 PM My youngest son has an elf and the party mage keeps trying to sleep spell him... something about him and the halfling thief/Illusionist being trouble makers... And he keeps laughing "I am IMMUNE to SLEEP!"

Then the party fighter hits him in the head with his mace and he takes a short nap. Simple solution.
Zumarai
03-20-07, 07:19 AM I like to implement the "Fewer Absolute Effects" idea from Andy Collins.

-Elves gain a +10 racial bonus on saves against sleep spells and effects.

I mean, seriously, should the average elf be immune to all sleep effects, even if cast by Morpheus etc?
Findail
03-20-07, 10:00 AM ...Why not?

Elves are immune to sleep effects because they don't sleep. They just need to meditate for 4 hours. The spell is trying to activate an urge/need that the elf just doesn't have.
Rogue Shadows
03-20-07, 10:09 AM Yeah...I always thought this was silly...and made little sense...

So I circumvent it by getting rid of it entirely, and instead having elves immune to all normal and magical diseases.
kelvinaw273
03-20-07, 10:33 AM I like to implement the "Fewer Absolute Effects" idea from Andy Collins.

-Elves gain a +10 racial bonus on saves against sleep spells and effects.

I mean, seriously, should the average elf be immune to all sleep effects, even if cast by Morpheus etc?

Elves don't actually sleep, they are incapable of it. It's like flying. People can't do it. If someone casts a spell that makes all creatures with wings take flight, it does not work on a human who does not have wings. They are out of the purview of the spell, end of story.
Zumarai
03-20-07, 10:38 AM Elves don't actually sleep, they are incapable of it.

It never says anywhere that elves are "incapable" of sleep – they merely don't want/need to.

That shouldn't mean that if a Greater God of sleep/dreams casts a sleep spell/effect on Tim the Elf butcher, it shouldn't affect him?

Anyway, I feel absolute effects such as total immunity and save or die spells etc are a bad holdover from previous editions, and I suspect they will clear it up come 4th edition.
Steevo
03-20-07, 10:42 AM This might be a basic question (and one that might not have much practical application), but my group could not come to a consensus on it, so I told them that I would post here and see what you all think. In the PHB, it states that an Elf has "Immunity to magic sleep effects...", does this pertain to just sleep spells/spell effects and Spell-Like abilities, or to supernatural / extraordinary / natural abilities as well?

Well, anything that is Supernatural (Su) or Spell-like (Sp) is magical and therefore the elf would be immune to it. Anything that is Extraordinary (Ex) is non-magical, and therefore it would depend on whether or not you think elves are completely incapable of sleeping, or if they just don't need to.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that elves don't need to sleep (as in they have no biological compunction to do so,) but if they chose to lie down and close their eyes, they can voluntarily lose consciousness for a few hours. By that logic, any natural poison or hypnotic effect could theoretically make the elf sleep, yes.
Zumarai
03-20-07, 11:21 AM Personally, I'm of the opinion that elves don't need to sleep (as in they have no biological compunction to do so,) but if they chose to lie down and close their eyes, they can voluntarily lose consciousness for a few hours. By that logic, any natural poison or hypnotic effect could theoretically make the elf sleep, yes.

Yes, like the drow poison (unconsciousness) affects them.
Evil DM Mk3
03-20-07, 11:25 AM Elves CANNOT sleep, unconciousness is not sleep, there are certain distince diferances.
Zumarai
03-20-07, 11:32 AM Elves CANNOT sleep, unconciousness is not sleep, there are certain distince diferances.

Where does it say that?

I thought it just said elves DON’T sleep.

There are certain distinct differences.
CowMasterTrojan
03-20-07, 04:07 PM Elves don't actually sleep, they are incapable of it. It's like flying. People can't do it. If someone casts a spell that makes all creatures with wings take flight, it does not work on a human who does not have wings. They are out of the purview of the spell, end of story.

I'm curious to know your argument for Half-elves, who are immune to sleep but actually sleep!
Gorlick_Da_Consumer
03-20-07, 04:53 PM I truly think their immunity refures to arcana only, because the elves have magical heritage they are immune, kinda like their secrit door sence, its genetic from the race's ancestry soking up the arcane energys. so i say its arcana, but maby you'll add divine as well.
Ellanon
03-20-07, 05:27 PM I like to implement the "Fewer Absolute Effects" idea from Andy Collins.

-Elves gain a +10 racial bonus on saves against sleep spells and effects.

I mean, seriously, should the average elf be immune to all sleep effects, even if cast by Morpheus etc?

I agree and I love that variant. However, it was Sean Reynolds and Monte Cook, not Andy Collins. =)

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/variantfewerabsolutes1.html
Treymordin
03-22-07, 01:08 AM Elves do not sleep. They enter into their reviere and relive their lives in that way, similar to the way that humans and other creatures dream.
kelvinaw273
03-22-07, 02:47 AM I'm curious to know your argument for Half-elves, who are immune to sleep but actually sleep!

Oh now that's a different kettle of the piscean genus, presumably half-elves, while they do sleep, do not do so via the normal channels due to the elfish side of their brain, and so cannot be made to sleep in the same manner as other creatures can [rolls Bluff and hopes].

As for Gods, sure, if Hypnos himself hits an elf with a sleep effect, the elf will sleep. So will trees, reptiles, and innanimate objects (though you may be hard put to tell the difference in the latter case). I mean, he's a GOD. But anyone else ... nah, forget it.
Zumarai
03-22-07, 08:27 AM As for Gods, sure, if Hypnos himself hits an elf with a sleep effect, the elf will sleep.

Not according to RAW.
Treymordin
03-22-07, 08:57 AM He is god of sleep. If you dont sleep he cant get you, even if he is a god.
Zumarai
03-22-07, 09:45 AM He is god of sleep. If you dont sleep he cant get you, even if he is a god.

"Choose" to sleep.
Naderion
03-23-07, 10:10 AM I think older materials say, that elves can sleep, but usually don't need to. When they are extremly exhausted and under a huge lot of stress, they may feel that drained, that they decide to just crash down where they are standing.
Though that seems to be related to their immunity to sleep, it does not explain the immunity of half-elves, so it's probably two different things.

Also, there are no poisons or things like that, that put a person to sleep. It's almost always unconciousness.
Ash the blackcowl
03-23-07, 10:14 AM 4th edition.

DO NOT MENTION THAT EVIL EVIL TERM!
Rump_Wrangler
03-23-07, 10:22 AM DO NOT MENTION THAT EVIL EVIL TERM!

I can't wait.

And d20 Star Wars Saga is definitely a testing of the waters for 4th edition.
Ash the blackcowl
03-23-07, 10:34 AM From the SRD

• Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.

Seems pretty simple to me. If the effect isnt magical (ie drow sleep poison) then it works. No where in the SRD does it say they dont require sleep, or need only rest for 4 hours.

This I would say is a concept left over from previous additions. IMC elves must rest the same as everyone else. They can call it sleep, trance, meditation or what ever, but it equals rest, and the same penalties apply to listen checks, etc as if they were asleep.
Steevo
03-23-07, 10:49 AM Seems pretty simple to me. If the effect isnt magical (ie drow sleep poison) then it works. No where in the SRD does it say they dont require sleep, or need only rest for 4 hours.

PHB pg.15, under Physical Description: "Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day."

But aside from that minor detail, I agree with the rest of your post.
paladin2019
03-23-07, 11:48 AM No where in the SRD does it say they dont require sleep, or need only rest for 4 hours.

This I would say is a concept left over from previous additions. IMC elves must rest the same as everyone else. They can call it sleep, trance, meditation or what ever, but it equals rest, and the same penalties apply to listen checks, etc as if they were asleep.PHB pg.15, under Physical Description: "Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day."

But aside from that minor detail, I agree with the rest of your post.

Nothing was wrong with Ash's post, besides he was quoting the SRD. In this instance, the SRD contradicts the RAW. Hence the reason I do not consider the SRD as fragarach for rules discussions.
soccastar001
03-23-07, 12:12 PM Well, anything that is Supernatural (Su) or Spell-like (Sp) is magical and therefore the elf would be immune to it.

Supernatural abilities are not magical, they are supernatural. Elves would be immune to spell-like abilities but not supernatural or extraordinary because neither is of a magical nature.

Also the RAW says elves "do not" sleep, not that they can't. A person with a ring of sustenance does not eat. But if they wanted to they still COULD. The same with an elf, it has no need to sleep and therefore doesn't but if it really wanted to for whatever reason he could.

And as far as a god of sleep. Well using an example already given a god could make a human fly, so could a god make an elf sleep. They're gods, they do what they want.
Vrael
03-23-07, 12:20 PM Not according to RAW.

Gods also have this little ability I like to call "Alter Reality." Gods do what they want.
Rump_Wrangler
03-23-07, 12:31 PM Gods also have this little ability I like to call "Alter Reality." Gods do what they want.

I haven’t looked at my DD for quite a while, is that a Salient Divine Ability?
Steevo
03-23-07, 01:59 PM Supernatural abilities are not magical, they are supernatural. Elves would be immune to spell-like abilities but not supernatural or extraordinary because neither is of a magical nature.

According to the description in the back of the PHB, Supernatural powers are magical abilities that are not subject to dispelling. They will, however, cease to function inside an anti-magic field. That is explicitly stated. Also, the definition of Extraordinary abilities says that those are "non-magical abilities (as opposed to spell-like or supernatural abilities.)" This is the basis upon which I say supernatural sleep abilities would not affect elves. If you choose to disagree, that's your business and your game.

Also the RAW says elves "do not" sleep, not that they can't. A person with a ring of sustenance does not eat. But if they wanted to they still COULD. The same with an elf, it has no need to sleep and therefore doesn't but if it really wanted to for whatever reason he could.

And as far as a god of sleep. Well using an example already given a god could make a human fly, so could a god make an elf sleep. They're gods, they do what they want.

I agree with this part 100%. I expressed the same sentiment in my first post to this thread, and I have not changed my position.
soccastar001
03-23-07, 02:07 PM I see, my mistake.

Supernatural abilities are just always seperated from spell-like abilities in terms of effects on spells. It always says bonus to, immune to, etc. spells and spell-like abilities but I've never seen a description read "...spells, spell-like abilities, and supermnatural abilities." That's where my argument came from.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
homercles 03-19-07, 01:48 PM	This might be a basic question (and one that might not have much practical application), but my group could not come to a consensus on it, so I told them that I would post here and see what you all think. In the PHB, it states that an Elf has "Immunity to magic sleep effects...", does this pertain to just sleep spells/spell effects and Spell-Like abilities, or to supernatural / extraordinary / natural abilities as well? Thanks Scott
WinterPsionic 03-19-07, 01:58 PM	This might be a basic question (and one that might not have much practical application), but my group could not come to a consensus on it, so I told them that I would post here and see what you all think. In the PHB, it states that an Elf has "Immunity to magic sleep effects...", does this pertain to just sleep spells/spell effects and Spell-Like abilities, or to supernatural / extraordinary / natural abilities as well? Thanks Scott Anything of a magical nature, so this would include most Su/Ex ablities that come to mind, knockout poisons from bites and stings bay be a bit different, this is up to the DM.
Treymordin 03-19-07, 03:24 PM	Natural sleep things like posions would get them.
LordRosencrantz 03-19-07, 03:24 PM	Hmmm... I would say any spell/spell like effect would not have an effect. In addition to normal sleep. This doesn't include illusions that may hypnotize the elf. I guess you couldn't hypno an elf to sleep but you could just make them stand there. Footnote: I'm using the term hypnotize loosely.
Treymordin 03-19-07, 03:25 PM	Very much so is hte term being used loosley
Ikyotojin 03-19-07, 03:34 PM	My youngest son has an elf and the party mage keeps trying to sleep spell him... something about him and the halfling thief/Illusionist being trouble makers... And he keeps laughing "I am IMMUNE to SLEEP!" Then the party fighter hits him in the head with his mace and he takes a short nap. Simple solution.
Zumarai 03-20-07, 07:19 AM	I like to implement the "Fewer Absolute Effects" idea from Andy Collins. -Elves gain a +10 racial bonus on saves against sleep spells and effects. I mean, seriously, should the average elf be immune to all sleep effects, even if cast by Morpheus etc?
Findail 03-20-07, 10:00 AM	...Why not? Elves are immune to sleep effects because they don't sleep. They just need to meditate for 4 hours. The spell is trying to activate an urge/need that the elf just doesn't have.
Rogue Shadows 03-20-07, 10:09 AM	Yeah...I always thought this was silly...and made little sense... So I circumvent it by getting rid of it entirely, and instead having elves immune to all normal and magical diseases.
kelvinaw273 03-20-07, 10:33 AM	I like to implement the "Fewer Absolute Effects" idea from Andy Collins. -Elves gain a +10 racial bonus on saves against sleep spells and effects. I mean, seriously, should the average elf be immune to all sleep effects, even if cast by Morpheus etc? Elves don't actually sleep, they are incapable of it. It's like flying. People can't do it. If someone casts a spell that makes all creatures with wings take flight, it does not work on a human who does not have wings. They are out of the purview of the spell, end of story.
Zumarai 03-20-07, 10:38 AM	Elves don't actually sleep, they are incapable of it. It never says anywhere that elves are "incapable" of sleep – they merely don't want/need to. That shouldn't mean that if a Greater God of sleep/dreams casts a sleep spell/effect on Tim the Elf butcher, it shouldn't affect him? Anyway, I feel absolute effects such as total immunity and save or die spells etc are a bad holdover from previous editions, and I suspect they will clear it up come 4th edition.
Steevo 03-20-07, 10:42 AM	This might be a basic question (and one that might not have much practical application), but my group could not come to a consensus on it, so I told them that I would post here and see what you all think. In the PHB, it states that an Elf has "Immunity to magic sleep effects...", does this pertain to just sleep spells/spell effects and Spell-Like abilities, or to supernatural / extraordinary / natural abilities as well? Well, anything that is Supernatural (Su) or Spell-like (Sp) is magical and therefore the elf would be immune to it. Anything that is Extraordinary (Ex) is non-magical, and therefore it would depend on whether or not you think elves are completely incapable of sleeping, or if they just don't need to. Personally, I'm of the opinion that elves don't need to sleep (as in they have no biological compunction to do so,) but if they chose to lie down and close their eyes, they can voluntarily lose consciousness for a few hours. By that logic, any natural poison or hypnotic effect could theoretically make the elf sleep, yes.
Zumarai 03-20-07, 11:21 AM	Personally, I'm of the opinion that elves don't need to sleep (as in they have no biological compunction to do so,) but if they chose to lie down and close their eyes, they can voluntarily lose consciousness for a few hours. By that logic, any natural poison or hypnotic effect could theoretically make the elf sleep, yes. Yes, like the drow poison (unconsciousness) affects them.
Evil DM Mk3 03-20-07, 11:25 AM	Elves CANNOT sleep, unconciousness is not sleep, there are certain distince diferances.
Zumarai 03-20-07, 11:32 AM	Elves CANNOT sleep, unconciousness is not sleep, there are certain distince diferances. Where does it say that? I thought it just said elves DON’T sleep. There are certain distinct differences.
CowMasterTrojan 03-20-07, 04:07 PM	Elves don't actually sleep, they are incapable of it. It's like flying. People can't do it. If someone casts a spell that makes all creatures with wings take flight, it does not work on a human who does not have wings. They are out of the purview of the spell, end of story. I'm curious to know your argument for Half-elves, who are immune to sleep but actually sleep!
Gorlick_Da_Consumer 03-20-07, 04:53 PM	I truly think their immunity refures to arcana only, because the elves have magical heritage they are immune, kinda like their secrit door sence, its genetic from the race's ancestry soking up the arcane energys. so i say its arcana, but maby you'll add divine as well.
Ellanon 03-20-07, 05:27 PM	I like to implement the "Fewer Absolute Effects" idea from Andy Collins. -Elves gain a +10 racial bonus on saves against sleep spells and effects. I mean, seriously, should the average elf be immune to all sleep effects, even if cast by Morpheus etc? I agree and I love that variant. However, it was Sean Reynolds and Monte Cook, not Andy Collins. =) http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/variantfewerabsolutes1.html
Treymordin 03-22-07, 01:08 AM	Elves do not sleep. They enter into their reviere and relive their lives in that way, similar to the way that humans and other creatures dream.
kelvinaw273 03-22-07, 02:47 AM	I'm curious to know your argument for Half-elves, who are immune to sleep but actually sleep! Oh now that's a different kettle of the piscean genus, presumably half-elves, while they do sleep, do not do so via the normal channels due to the elfish side of their brain, and so cannot be made to sleep in the same manner as other creatures can [rolls Bluff and hopes]. As for Gods, sure, if Hypnos himself hits an elf with a sleep effect, the elf will sleep. So will trees, reptiles, and innanimate objects (though you may be hard put to tell the difference in the latter case). I mean, he's a GOD. But anyone else ... nah, forget it.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 08:27 AM	As for Gods, sure, if Hypnos himself hits an elf with a sleep effect, the elf will sleep. Not according to RAW.
Treymordin 03-22-07, 08:57 AM	He is god of sleep. If you dont sleep he cant get you, even if he is a god.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 09:45 AM	He is god of sleep. If you dont sleep he cant get you, even if he is a god. "Choose" to sleep.
Naderion 03-23-07, 10:10 AM	I think older materials say, that elves can sleep, but usually don't need to. When they are extremly exhausted and under a huge lot of stress, they may feel that drained, that they decide to just crash down where they are standing. Though that seems to be related to their immunity to sleep, it does not explain the immunity of half-elves, so it's probably two different things. Also, there are no poisons or things like that, that put a person to sleep. It's almost always unconciousness.
Ash the blackcowl 03-23-07, 10:14 AM	4th edition. DO NOT MENTION THAT EVIL EVIL TERM!
Rump_Wrangler 03-23-07, 10:22 AM	DO NOT MENTION THAT EVIL EVIL TERM! I can't wait. And d20 Star Wars Saga is definitely a testing of the waters for 4th edition.
Ash the blackcowl 03-23-07, 10:34 AM	From the SRD • Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Seems pretty simple to me. If the effect isnt magical (ie drow sleep poison) then it works. No where in the SRD does it say they dont require sleep, or need only rest for 4 hours. This I would say is a concept left over from previous additions. IMC elves must rest the same as everyone else. They can call it sleep, trance, meditation or what ever, but it equals rest, and the same penalties apply to listen checks, etc as if they were asleep.
Steevo 03-23-07, 10:49 AM	Seems pretty simple to me. If the effect isnt magical (ie drow sleep poison) then it works. No where in the SRD does it say they dont require sleep, or need only rest for 4 hours. PHB pg.15, under Physical Description: "Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day." But aside from that minor detail, I agree with the rest of your post.
paladin2019 03-23-07, 11:48 AM	No where in the SRD does it say they dont require sleep, or need only rest for 4 hours. This I would say is a concept left over from previous additions. IMC elves must rest the same as everyone else. They can call it sleep, trance, meditation or what ever, but it equals rest, and the same penalties apply to listen checks, etc as if they were asleep.PHB pg.15, under Physical Description: "Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day." But aside from that minor detail, I agree with the rest of your post. Nothing was wrong with Ash's post, besides he was quoting the SRD. In this instance, the SRD contradicts the RAW. Hence the reason I do not consider the SRD as fragarach for rules discussions.
soccastar001 03-23-07, 12:12 PM	Well, anything that is Supernatural (Su) or Spell-like (Sp) is magical and therefore the elf would be immune to it. Supernatural abilities are not magical, they are supernatural. Elves would be immune to spell-like abilities but not supernatural or extraordinary because neither is of a magical nature. Also the RAW says elves "do not" sleep, not that they can't. A person with a ring of sustenance does not eat. But if they wanted to they still COULD. The same with an elf, it has no need to sleep and therefore doesn't but if it really wanted to for whatever reason he could. And as far as a god of sleep. Well using an example already given a god could make a human fly, so could a god make an elf sleep. They're gods, they do what they want.
Vrael 03-23-07, 12:20 PM	Not according to RAW. Gods also have this little ability I like to call "Alter Reality." Gods do what they want.
Rump_Wrangler 03-23-07, 12:31 PM	Gods also have this little ability I like to call "Alter Reality." Gods do what they want. I haven’t looked at my DD for quite a while, is that a Salient Divine Ability?
Steevo 03-23-07, 01:59 PM	Supernatural abilities are not magical, they are supernatural. Elves would be immune to spell-like abilities but not supernatural or extraordinary because neither is of a magical nature. According to the description in the back of the PHB, Supernatural powers are magical abilities that are not subject to dispelling. They will, however, cease to function inside an anti-magic field. That is explicitly stated. Also, the definition of Extraordinary abilities says that those are "non-magical abilities (as opposed to spell-like or supernatural abilities.)" This is the basis upon which I say supernatural sleep abilities would not affect elves. If you choose to disagree, that's your business and your game. Also the RAW says elves "do not" sleep, not that they can't. A person with a ring of sustenance does not eat. But if they wanted to they still COULD. The same with an elf, it has no need to sleep and therefore doesn't but if it really wanted to for whatever reason he could. And as far as a god of sleep. Well using an example already given a god could make a human fly, so could a god make an elf sleep. They're gods, they do what they want. I agree with this part 100%. I expressed the same sentiment in my first post to this thread, and I have not changed my position.
soccastar001 03-23-07, 02:07 PM	I see, my mistake. Supernatural abilities are just always seperated from spell-like abilities in terms of effects on spells. It always says bonus to, immune to, etc. spells and spell-like abilities but I've never seen a description read "...spells, spell-like abilities, and supermnatural abilities." That's where my argument came from.