Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Korlall 03-12-08, 03:12 PM	Even if I can't remember where I read that, I read that Elves do not sleep. Instead, they meditate in a trance in which they connect their mind to past, future, which allow them to refresh their mind. But how do you treat an elve while meditating ? is he alert from his surroundings ? Can he mak Spot checks for detecting enemies ? Does he takes the -10 penalty on Listen checks as for sleeping character ???
The_Ditto 03-12-08, 03:23 PM	I believe the easiest is to treat them as if asleep .. ie same penalties ... (that's what we do, anyway ... no point in trying to come up with new mechanics when it's not really necessary, nor risk making elves any stronger than they already are .. :P )
Kursk 03-12-08, 03:28 PM	There is no difference from a mechanics standpoint.
ToastedAmphibian 03-12-08, 06:07 PM	More importantly, what happens if you lock an elf in a cell for 200 years and kick the crap out of him every time he tries to meditate?
Orchomenos 03-13-08, 10:08 AM	More importantly, what happens if you lock an elf in a cell for 200 years and kick the crap out of him every time he tries to meditate? Who would waste 200 years of his own life on this? I mean, kicking the crap out of an elf is funny, but it quickly turns repetive. And not everyone is as long-lived than them, so you would really have to consecrate your whole life to the task... Perhaps a cloistered monk of Gruumsh? Or perhaps Ilneval or Shargaas? Though orcs are pretty short-lived; we would thus need a whole monastery consecrated on kicking the crap out of this elf... I think I'm beginning to see the form of a new campaign plot... :smirk: OTOH, I don't think we would need to do that for 200 years. After one week, the elf would start confounding some past and present events. After one month, that would be general, she would confound everything. And after one year, that would be totally irremediable.
Korlall 03-13-08, 10:14 AM	Who would waste 200 years of his own life on this? A construct ordered to do so ?
ToastedAmphibian 03-13-08, 04:30 PM	A construct ordered to do so ? And Elf-Kicking Robot? BRILLIANT!
Legdiwena 03-13-08, 04:52 PM	He should have same penalties as for lack of sleep. He's exhausted until he enters trance for 30 min.
ToastedAmphibian 03-13-08, 07:54 PM	He should have same penalties as for lack of sleep. He's exhausted until he enters trance for 30 min. Mhm. Good job being not-fun. Elf-Lover.
Shadowfax7 03-14-08, 06:44 AM	Even if I can't remember where I read that, I read that Elves do not sleep. Instead, they meditate in a trance in which they connect their mind to past, future, which allow them to refresh their mind. But how do you treat an elve while meditating ? is he alert from his surroundings ? Can he mak Spot checks for detecting enemies ? Does he takes the -10 penalty on Listen checks as for sleeping character ??? IMC we give them a -5 penalty on Listen and Spot due to being distracted instead of the -10 penalty on Listen due to being asleep. The presumption is that he need not close his eyes to trance.
Naderion 03-14-08, 07:05 AM	More importantly, what happens if you lock an elf in a cell for 200 years and kick the crap out of him every time he tries to meditate? The same thing that would happen to humans if you don't let them sleep. I think after abot 48 hours halucinations start and after 5 days they go mad. But if they get 8 hours of sleep, they are all right again. Unlike computers, brains can free "memory" space only when sleeping.
Orenmir 03-14-08, 10:41 AM	Humans can die from a complete lack of sleep. Depending on your health, it can take as little as 10 days. Of course, other conditions and disease set in before 10 days, including hallucinations and brain damage. Logically, you could apply the same to Elves. Their weaker constitution might come into play, but so might their longevity.
Orchomenos 03-14-08, 10:47 AM	Reminds me a Stephen King's novel where the protagonists were unable to sleep for days, and then started see strange things and hallucinating. But in fact, they were NOT hallucinating, the lack of sleep allowed them to see supernatural beings...
Lawkeeper 03-14-08, 11:14 AM	From the wiki article on sleep deprivation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation), here's the list of some possible physiological effects alone : aching muscles; blurred vision; clinical depression; colorblindness; daytime drowsiness and naps; decreased mental activity and concentration; depersonalization/derealization; weakened immune system; dizziness; dark circles under the eyes; fainting; general confusion; hallucinations (visual and auditory); hand tremors; headache; hernia; hyperactivity; hypertension; impatience; irritability; lucid dreaming (once sleep resumes); memory lapses or loss; nausea; nystagmus (rapid involuntary rhythmic eye movement); psychosis; pallor; slowed reaction time; slurred and/or nonsensical speech; weight loss or gain; severe yawning; symptoms similar to: Attention-deficit Hyperactivity Disorder; or alcoholic intoxication. That's what the elf would get too.:cool:
Legdiwena 03-14-08, 11:41 AM	RAW, nothing happens past exhaustion no matter how long you go without sleep, right?
Naderion 03-14-08, 11:45 AM	The same thing with food. Humanoids need to eat, but nothing happens if they don't. And you can see into infinite distance. And never have to use the bathroom. And you can't get a cold, ever. There are also no common diseases. And a 100.000 year old sword is still as sharp and shiny as the day it was made. You can play by the books, but not roleplay by them. ;)
1 ton ghost 03-14-08, 11:55 AM	I believe the easiest is to treat them as if asleep .. ie same penalties ... (that's what we do, anyway ... no point in trying to come up with new mechanics when it's not really necessary, nor risk making elves any stronger than they already are .. :P ) you are so right... it's not like they don't have a huge advantage already: Low-Light Vision (usually downtime synchs up w/ humans' rest...at night) +2 Spot & Listen (helps offset the -10 penalties) Only meditating 4 hrs (non-arcane types) instead of sleeping 8; this is major as that's 4 more hrs on avg for wandering monster rolls in the wild, or if you prefer, 4 more chances to get coup de graced in your sleeping bag. ironically, default elf Favored Class is Wizard though. food for thought. affords way more Overland Travel time, independent time, etc. to do what that PC wants. 24 hr day = 8 hrs of Overland Travel, 8 hrs. of "whatever" time, 8 hrs sleep...if you're human. those extra 4 hrs/day add up. it's just simply giving you the most valuable commodity, time. -don't go manipulating elf med/trance cycles. they're getting enough advantages in that department and the Con penalty is poetic enough given the possibility of Fatigue/Exhaustion due to lack of sleep/meditation. -some claim that not all drow meditate for what it's worth. they sleep 4 hrs? -many also claim that meditation afford you time to sit up-right (lotus), not prone. that is, -2 vs. the -4 AC for being Prone in addition to Helpless/Flat-Footed nj on those of you that noted sleep dep and the Stephen King quip. what book was that btw? related (sorry for the length): -when you remove sleep ques (sun/moon's passing, all clocks, specific TV program listings, cawing roosters, morning coffee, everything), you revert to your body's facotry pre-set as it were, or your "ultradian rthyms". your body actually thinks the day is 25.2 hrs, not 24...provided you remove all "zeitgebers" or the sleep ques mention prior. you become more efficient and require less sleep. weird. they do this at sleep study labs. it takes some getting used to; watch all the movies you want, books, exercise, gaming (that was a nice touch) whatever. no windows, normal TV, clocks, nothing to possibly remind you what the outside world time is. -your circadian rthyms are relegated to REM Sleep. that is, every 90 minutes you cycle into delta wave (REM) sleep, the real/restful sleep where you are dreaming. waking during this cycle is exhausting, but you remember your dream very clearly. most ppl wake in alpha wave sleep and the dream's memory fades quickly enough. this is normal. most Mon-Fri 9-5'ers are well in REM around 4am, this is why professional burglars often rob homes at that time. deep sleep means you're not waking. -REM Rebound; gamers and students get this alot. basically, when you're not getting enough REM sleep, typically from crazy class/work schedules, chemical dependency, stress, whatever, you'll immediately go into REM upon unconsciousness. even 20min powernaps. that is, you'll lay down for a few minutes during lunch break and instantly have a dream (instantly going into REM; your body is compensating). apart from having no Spell Retention, possible Fatigue and/or Exhaustion, etc., are there any other mechanical FX in game concerning sleep/meditation?
Lawkeeper 03-14-08, 12:42 PM	Only meditating 4 hrs (non-arcane types) instead of sleeping 8; this is major as that's 4 more hrs on avg for wandering monster rolls in the wild, or if you prefer, 4 more chances to get coup de graced in your sleeping bag. ironically, default elf Favored Class is Wizard though. food for thought. affords way more Overland Travel time, independent time, etc. to do what that PC wants. Spellcasters don't need to sleep 8 hours, but to rest. Elf spellcasters may meditate 4 hours, and then stand vigil 4 hours, without any effect on their spellcasting next day (as long as they don't take strenuous actions). Overland Travel time has no link to how many hours you need to sleep/rest/meditate. Every hour past the normal overland travel time triggers a check - even if you didn't have to sleep at all.
1 ton ghost 03-14-08, 03:12 PM	Spellcasters don't need to sleep 8 hours, but to rest. Elf spellcasters may meditate 4 hours, and then stand vigil 4 hours, without any effect on their spellcasting next day (as long as they don't take strenuous actions). i'm aware that you only need "8 hrs of restful peace/quiet", but if you're not getting 8hrs of sleep (as a non elf), you're Fatigued the next day. i've never heard, much less read the "med 4 hrs, guard the other 4 (per elf)" ruling and still be able to fulfill the spellcasting stipulation. IMO, that's fairly blatant exploitation of the rules concerning proper rest/sleep/meditation/whatever vs. time. by "vigil" i'm assuming you mean "guard duty" which is totally innappropriate in this light. broken as it were. correct me if i'm wrong, ok. i wish to interpret you accurately. IMO, you can't have it both ways. the magi needs to be sounding his mind and body, not actively reconnoitering (even if seated, stationary, and relaxed) the campsite while his buddies rest. typically, avg guard duty is expressed generally as Taking 10 on Spot and Listen for most NPC city guards and the like given simplicity's sake. that's an active committment mentally speaking, even if they're standing there doing nothing really. that is to say, you cannot be on vigil if you're resting. it doesn't work that way. believe me, i know in game, and out of game having done alot of security work...(sucks btw, don't do it). mentally attenuating to your surroudings for signs of danger is a distraction, albeit a small one. this is enough to cause fatigue and a degree of mental stress cognitively speaking. you cannot generate the rest for you body/mind in this light. ex)working 12 hr shifts at Givadan here in Cincy in the past was monotonous but easy money. on a good day w/ no incidents; sit, watch the CCTV monitors, f-ck off on the internet, listen to music, etc., and do a walk-through patrol every even #'ed hour. in those 2 hour gaps of "nothingness", you can't "rest" per se even if you're just sitting there, perfectly relaxed, watching a 12in B/W monitor "on vigil" as it were. you veg out to be sure, but you're not resting by any means, trust me. you know no orc is gonna' storm the security booth and attack you, that is, stress is not that high, but you can't get the rest you might want. you're just sitting there, technically on vigil as you say, but it's mentally exhausting. i guess that's why they kept us in circulation every 2 hours, helps break the monotony. long story short, my position (opinion) is if you're being mentally taxed, you can't rest and being on guard duty is mentally taxing if not boring as Hell. perhaps a compromise w/ a VERY LIBERAL DM given a Concentration check during this period, but you should at least be considered Distracted in terms of Spot and Listen. seems progressive, but a little like spoonfeeding your players IMO. anyway, Concentration isn't just for Spellcasting though most demean it to that status only. consider picking a lock when your skin is on fire, etc.
Orenmir 03-14-08, 04:40 PM	-when you remove sleep ques (sun/moon's passing, all clocks, specific TV program listings, cawing roosters, morning coffee, everything), you revert to your body's facotry pre-set as it were, or your "ultradian rthyms". your body actually thinks the day is 25.2 hrs, not 24...provided you remove all "zeitgebers" or the sleep ques mention prior. you become more efficient and require less sleep. weird. they do this at sleep study labs. it takes some getting used to; watch all the movies you want, books, exercise, gaming (that was a nice touch) whatever. no windows, normal TV, clocks, nothing to possibly remind you what the outside world time is. That's actually quite interesting. I'm curious why our bodies default to a 25.2 hour cycle. What is the researchers' explanation?
ToastedAmphibian 03-14-08, 08:09 PM	Overland Travel time has no link to how many hours you need to sleep/rest/meditate. Every hour past the normal overland travel time triggers a check - even if you didn't have to sleep at all. Correct. Unless your immune to Fatigue. In forgotten realms, a percentage of Thri-Kreen can walk non stop for years at a time. Apparently, Tireless is a regional feat for them. They never sleep, ever, nor do they meditate. They are alert and active 24 hours a day. They will take 1d6 nonleathal damage per hour. The will heal 1 nonleathal damage per hour, per character level. Assuming they can make the survival checks to feed themselves, at 4th level they can walk forever... or rather for 30 years or so when they drop dead of old age. aching muscles; blurred vision; clinical depression; colorblindness; daytime drowsiness and naps; decreased mental activity and concentration; depersonalization/derealization; weakened immune system; Heh, this one could be a problem dizziness; dark circles under the eyes; Dark circles everywhere. Kicking Golem fainting; general confusion; hallucinations (visual and auditory); hand tremors; headache; hernia; hyperactivity; hypertension; impatience; Really? Whats the treashold for impatience when you live 300+ years? irritability; What else is new? lucid dreaming (once sleep resumes); Elves dont Dream memory lapses or loss; "Wow, i cant rember what happened last mellienia" nausea; nystagmus (rapid involuntary rhythmic eye movement); psychosis; pallor; [Agian, what else is knew?] slowed reaction time; slurred and/or nonsensical speech; [See pallor] weight loss or gain; severe yawning; Do creatures that dont sleep yawn? symptoms similar to: Attention-deficit Hyperactivity Disorder; or alcoholic intoxication If your kicked into unconciousness, can you consider that "Meditating"?
Lawkeeper 03-14-08, 08:16 PM	i'm aware that you only need "8 hrs of restful peace/quiet", but if you're not getting 8hrs of sleep (as a non elf), you're Fatigued the next day. Long story, short : yes, because non-elves need 8 hours of sleep. Not 4 hours. Look at the answer of the FAQ for the ring of sustenance. The description of the ring of sustenance says the user gets all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in 2 hours. How does this affect a bard, sorcerer, or wizard who wants to regain spells? Specifically, how does this interact with the casting limit rule in the Player’s Handbook? In the case of a ring of sustenance, “all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep” means the character sleeps for 2 hours and regains 1 hit point per level (see the rules for natural healing on Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). If the ring wearer is fatigued, 2 hours of sleep removes the fatigue. A wizard must have 8 hours of rest before regaining spells. If the wizard doesn’t have to sleep for some reason, she still requires 8 hours of rest to regain any spells (see Preparing Wizard Spells on page 177 of the Player’s Handbook). A ring of sustenance doesn’t change that. A bard or sorcerer regains spells only once a day, and a ring of sustenance doesn’t increase that. A ring of sustenance also doesn’t exempt the wearer from the casting limit rule. Whenever a spellcaster gets a new set of spells, any spell slot she used in the last 8 hours is not available. This rule has nothing to do with how much sleep the spellcaster gets; it reflects how long a spell slot must remain empty before the character can refill it. The ring doesn’t make 8 hours pass, so it doesn’t help the character refill the used spell slot. Fatigue and sleep have nothing to do with the requirement of 8 hours of rest - rather, it's 8 hours of not using your arcane powers, so as to be able to prepare anew. To rest, a character only needs to refrain from strenuous actions. No work, no combat, no casting. But rest does not imply total inaction, just light activity. And Spot/Listen checks are passive actions ; even simple walk or talk is light activity. When you stand watch, you don't move ceaselessly - if you did, you'd get seen by any intruder, and his job of sneaking towards you would be facilitated. You may wander a bit, talk with a companion, those are all light activities. Finally, it's no more exploitation of the rules than saying your familiar stands watch during the night and sleeps on your shoulder during the day - still allowing you to use the Alertness feat.
1 ton ghost 03-15-08, 01:48 PM	That's actually quite interesting. I'm curious why our bodies default to a 25.2 hour cycle. What is the researchers' explanation? not entirely sure. for what it's worth, i learned this in Consiciousness during my stint of Psych from Dr. Torello at Capital Unviersity ('95-'99). i'd check on-line w/ the AMA or any psych facilities for a clearer report as i haven't any of my lab notes, textbooks, nothing here (i'm presently at work...yay). that is, anything i could tell you off the top of my head (presently) would be speculation at this point, but i can assure you it's genuine. between testing, our time in the sleep lab to actually experience it, and regular class lectures, i can safely tell you it's not bullsh-t though. the pseudo-jet lag esque fallout when we were leaving the lab felt real enough, EEGs, time/date videos, and our monitored sleep seemed fairly conclusive. ie)they proved it, they just don't know why it's 25.2, not 24 hrs. wish i could be more helpful in this dept. i'm guessing it's a defense mechanism, but that's still just a hypothesis, not a definitive answer. intriguing as Hell, but i'm not about to adopt it for any current campaigns.
NightHawkFalconis 03-16-08, 12:03 AM	Wow, this is weird. I was totally just wondering the OPs question myself. As a DM, I'm inclined to say that, because the rules say elves do not sleep, then they do not take the -10 penalty on listen checks for being asleep. As for the person who posted that guard duty is taxing: I think it depends on the circumstances. On an average night, the "on duty" adventurer is likely to be staring into the fire, occasionally looking out into the night (sight is pretty much useless, even to elves unless there's moonlight and no concealment around). I'd say that, unless the party knew they were in danger, an elven wizard could get the extra 4 hours of rest by being on duty. By the way, even as a DM, I think it's total BS that arcane casters need 8 hours of rest, instead of "a full [night's] sleep," ... especially since races who do not sleep (mainly elves, but there are others) say that their version of sleeping grants them the same benefits as 8 hours of sleep.
1 ton ghost 03-16-08, 01:43 PM	Wow, this is weird. I was totally just wondering the OPs question myself. As a DM, I'm inclined to say that, because the rules say elves do not sleep, then they do not take the -10 penalty on listen checks for being asleep. to each his own. i'm still of the opinion that balance in priority in game and giving elves a major leg up by exempting them from the -10 Listen/Spot discreapancy is not really fair. given their Racial Bonus to the skills mentioned prior and their other genetic benefits, i'd say they're fine as is IMO. removing the necessary penalty in many ways hamstrings rogues and other ambushing types. catching an enemy when asleep/meditating is choice, you know? meditation and sleep aren't really defined well in the PHB/DMG which sucks cuz' they really should. i mean, unless you're playing a construct or undead, and a non-casting type too, everything needs sleep. neglecting such an important universal concept is shoddy writing/design. As for the person who posted that guard duty is taxing: I think it depends on the circumstances. On an average night, the "on duty" adventurer is likely to be staring into the fire, occasionally looking out into the night (sight is pretty much useless, even to elves unless there's moonlight and no concealment around). again, i must disagree. this is just me though, do what's right for you and your's. an "average night" is a fairly relative term. granted, pulling 12 hr shifts in a corp facility and factory site isn't terribly stressful, but it's demanding and you leave exhausted. even w/ a full pot of coffee, periodic breaks to stretch, do foot patrol, what have you, i can assure you that you are not getting any "rest". but again, rest is a relative term. depends on what you need to get by on. i know IRL i don't have Endurance, alot of ranks in Survival, etc. hard to determine. apples and oranges i guess. consider: camping once or twice and given active warnings by rangers that bears were spotted recently near the camp grounds and were a bit aggressive of late, we decided to set "watches" as it were. i can safely say that i got no rest while on "guard duty" nor did my friends on their's. the stress gets to you quickly as it should. it keeps you on edge where you need to be, not calmly lounging in your sleeping pallete waiting for an ork to snap a branch or 2. in game terms though, yeah, it doesn't add up to real life. i'm just speaking from personal XP is all. average adventurers sittin' around staring into the fire when they should be guarding deserve a quick death for such irresponsible vigilance over their party. you should be staring into the dark (not fire) for one to not spoil your night vision, preferably hiding (any cover/concealment), listening to the horses and indigenous wildlife & how they behave, measuring the weather, and of course, periodically getting firewood. it's like usually more wood every 1/2hr i think, at least i think that's what PHB said for bonfires. you're not supposed to be resting, you're supposed to be guarding. rest implies limited faculties as you're deliberately "powering down" as it were to conserve energy, build it hopefully, heal, etc. I'd say that, unless the party knew they were in danger, an elven wizard could get the extra 4 hours of rest by being on duty. By the way, even as a DM, I think it's total BS that arcane casters need 8 hours of rest, instead of "a full [night's] sleep," ... especially since races who do not sleep (mainly elves, but there are others) say that their version of sleeping grants them the same benefits as 8 hours of sleep. again, i would advise against it. rules wise, it seems like a loophole. tactically, it's dangerous for casters and hinders the rest of the party. any encounter, doesn't matter, that's another hour you gotta' tack onto mage's downtime for spell prep. sucks but so does getting Fireballed. they're just too vulnerable to risk like that and no party is going to take off as planned w/out the mage while he gets his extra sleep time. better to just let them take their full 8. not like they have good Spot/Listen anyway. and the familiar discrepancy mentioned earlier, that's (Su) btw. not contingent on real world mechanics. plus, if the critter has Scent or good senes of it's own, so much the better.