Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadowfax7 06-04-07, 11:58 AM	I am considering giving Elves IMC the Timeless Body ability as a racial ability and was wondering how unbalancing this would be, if at all, and if it should replace another ability of the Elf ? Opinions ??
Lionhearted 06-04-07, 12:03 PM	not very unbalancing, as long you force the Pc's to begin as young elves and thus not exploiting the free +3 to all mental stat bonus
Reinforcements 06-04-07, 12:19 PM	I am considering giving Elves IMC the Timeless Body ability as a racial ability and was wondering how unbalancing this would be, if at all, and if it should replace another ability of the Elf ? Opinions ?? Timeless body, for elves if not every race, is a non-ability. You can't very well let players start at higher age categories and thus get stat bonuses for nothing, and the chance that an elf PC goes from starting age even to middle age is virtually nil. It will basically never come into play unless one deliberately seeks to exploit it.
Lady Maedhros 06-04-07, 03:21 PM	I have for some time now, it hasn't broken my game yet. I did have one player ask me if he could start as venerable, and I grinned and told him of course, but had he noticed the level 6 Time domain spell, which ages affected characters by one category. I have not, since, had any problem with it. :tie:
Shadowfax7 06-04-07, 09:04 PM	This is what I was thinking . . . PCs start at a young age according to the age tables in the PHB and few, if any, PCs continue to middle age or older in a campaign. Adventuring is a dangerous career afterall. Also, there isn't any aging magic in the core books, thus being immune to it is not a big advantage. but had he noticed the level 6 Time domain spell, which ages affected characters by one category.I will have to check that spell out. What book is the Time Domain and that spell in ? Also, did you notice that Timeless Body also makes you immune to magical aging . . . Timeless Body (Ex) After attaining 15th level, a druid no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place.
AMGriffin 06-04-07, 10:27 PM	Topics like these make me hate elves. I mean honestly, I'm ****** right now. I just started a new campaign with some new players and EVERYBODY BUT ME is playing an elf or a half-elf. Jesus H. Christ there's way more to roleplaying then being something pretty with pointy ears and living a long time. It's ridiculous how such stupid gimmicks draw people in. God forbid your character be ugly or not magically inclined!!! ARGH!!! *continues to rant on for several hours* Sorry, I had to vent. Usually elves really don't bug me.
Lady Maedhros 06-05-07, 12:24 AM	I will have to check that spell out. What book is the Time Domain and that spell in ? Homebrew. And I didn't actually give them Timeless Body, the monk ability; just zero penalty for aging (apart from, y'know, dying), like Elans or dragonborn Kobolds have. Although I'd forgotten about that "magical aging" bit in the monk ability; huh. Looks like I inadvertently made it useful. :D
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 09:53 AM	I mean honestly, I'm ****** right now. I just started a new campaign with some new players and EVERYBODY BUT ME is playing an elf or a half-elf. Jesus H. Christ there's way more to roleplaying then being something pretty with pointy ears and living a long time. It's ridiculous how such stupid gimmicks draw people in. God forbid your character be ugly or not magically inclined!!! ARGH!!! -Can't help it if Elves are superior to N'Tel'Quessir.
Lionhearted 06-05-07, 11:40 AM	-Can't help it if Elves are superior to N'Tel'Quessir. Noldors are atleast equal to 15th level characters with the paragon template in comperance to ordinary elves.
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 01:51 PM	Noldors are atleast equal to 15th level characters with the paragon template in comperance to ordinary elves. -I have no clue what you are talking about. Literally.
Lionhearted 06-05-07, 02:09 PM	-I have no clue what you are talking about. Literally. I'll give you a clue, Simarillion
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 02:22 PM	-I thought you were talking about something from D&D. I was going to say...
Seldriss 06-05-07, 02:47 PM	Being an elf, or a fey, should be mainly a matter of behavior, attitude, perspective, roleplaying... In a word the secret is in the fluff. Not the crunch. No matter how many super-powers you give to elves, if they are played like emos with long ears, they won't deserve their elven heritage. For Corellon's sake, there is more to elves than Legolas or Drizz't ! Same for dwarves if you just play them as grumpy stocky furry balls armed with axes, or for half-orcs if you only play them as the standard barbarian... Before the attributes modifiers and special abilities, a race is a cultural pool to explore, to develop and to immerse yourself into. This is how you give life to your character and make him unique. Respect your character. Always.
Willie the Duck 06-07-07, 01:14 AM	I am considering giving Elves IMC the Timeless Body ability as a racial ability and was wondering how unbalancing this would be, if at all, and if it should replace another ability of the Elf ? Opinions ?? The question is: wy do you want to make this change? Half the people that do do so because they think that elves ought to be mysticaly forces of nature that live outside the world of man, only to steal a mortal away for seven years and return them not a day older (think Sidhe/Sylvan Court/True Thomas). These people basically think of elves as something very hard to represent PCs playing, or even creatures tat could fit into te LA/ECL/CR system of D&D. The other half use elves as a self-insertion/Mary-sue/Gary-Stu and tack on immortality to address their own innate fear of dying. Sure we'd all like to avoid death -- even Shakespear, Petrarch, and Yeats obsessed about the horror of not living forever, but making RPG races in your image and then making them unaging is an immature response. The last sliver of a percentage want to make elves unaging for unique and interesting reasons. Is that you? Explain how.
Lady Maedhros 06-07-07, 01:31 AM	Dude, he doesn't have to justify himself to you, Willie, or anyone else but his own gaming group. He came here with a mechanical question. Elf-bash on your own time.
InkBlot 06-07-07, 01:40 AM	I didn't actually give them Timeless Body, the monk ability; just zero penalty for aging (apart from, y'know, dying), like Elans or dragonborn Kobolds have. Elan don't die from old age. The maximum age listing was a typo, and was fixed in errata.
Willie the Duck 06-07-07, 11:24 PM	Dude, he doesn't have to justify himself to you, Willie, or anyone else but his own gaming group. He came here with a mechanical question. Elf-bash on your own time. Nice to see that you think before you speak. This is my own time, and your canned response will garner you all the respect it deserves. I've made a clear, concise, decidedly oversimplified but decidedly true categorization of what people tend to do when they make elves immortal. On is sort of insulting, the other simply having a certain "vision" for elves. Occasionally people do so for truly unique and interesting reasons, and if the OP is one of those people, I'd love to hear his reasons. He's under no obligation to respond to me, but if he does, I hope he does so in a way that is more mature than yours.
JulesCARV 06-07-07, 11:39 PM	Moreoever, not only do Elans not have a maximum age, but they do take penalties for aging. A venerable elan (other than a high level monk or druid) has a -6 penalty to strength, constitution, and dexterity, just like a venerable gnome. Elans age normally, following the table including getting int/wis/cha bonuses and str/con/dex penalties, until they ge to venerable age. Then the only difference is that they don't have a maximum age. They can then continue indefinitely being venerable, but they are venerable for that indefinite span, and thus physically weaker.
Swordsage01 06-08-07, 12:02 AM	How is fear immature, Willie?
tetebetson 06-08-07, 10:55 AM	How is fear immature, Willie? to true without fear there is no courage or bravery
Gladi 06-08-07, 04:25 PM	How is fear immature, Willie? Bright day Well there are ways of approaching, or rather not approaching such issues. And our modern western society is one which approach to feebleness of old age is rather disheartening.
Lady Maedhros 06-08-07, 09:11 PM	Some defensive nonsense Let's see: an insulting post calling large masses of people "immature" and "Mary-Sue"ers, followed by a demand that the OP justify himself, followed by another insulting post, yet again pulling out your "immature" chestnut. Yes, you're certainly a master of evolved, mature dialogue. I see you as my rhetorical superior, and thus your dismissal humbles and wounds me. Moreoever, not only do Elans not have a maximum age, but they do take penalties for aging. A venerable elan (other than a high level monk or druid) has a -6 penalty to strength, constitution, and dexterity, just like a venerable gnome. Elans age normally, following the table including getting int/wis/cha bonuses and str/con/dex penalties, until they ge to venerable age. Then the only difference is that they don't have a maximum age. They can then continue indefinitely being venerable, but they are venerable for that indefinite span, and thus physically weaker. Huh. Forgot about the penalties in the age table of the XPH, but you're right. Venerable at 1000, normal penalties apply. That's weird, though. If they degrade with age, why don't they just keep degrading... forever?
JulesCARV 06-08-07, 10:57 PM	One explanation I heard is that what's "aging" for humans is really just "reaching equilibrium" for elans -- they start out fresh from transformation being kinda out of wack, with abnormally high strength, dexterity, and constitution, and low intelligence, wisdom, and charisma, but after a millineum they become "normal." A hot tea cup cools until it gets to room temperature, then stays at room temperature indefinitely; it doesn't keep cooling forever. Of course, that's really more a description of elan aging than an explanation, but it could work.
Gladi 06-09-07, 04:34 AM	Let's see: an insulting post calling large masses of people "immature" and "Mary-Sue"ers, followed by a demand that the OP justify himself, followed by another insulting post, yet again pulling out your "immature" chestnut. Yes, you're certainly a master of evolved, mature dialogue. I see you as my rhetorical superior, and thus your dismissal humbles and wounds me. While, the post was not in a best of taste, it was more provoking than insulting. And provoking it was by design. Further, every mechanic both old and new should be criticized detaily- and that includes giving rationale for including it. Designer knows, he has reached perfection, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Shadowfax7 06-09-07, 09:51 AM	I would appreciatee getting this thread back on track as I have further discussion on the subject of giving Timeless Body to Elves . . . First, Lady Maedhros, I originally was house ruling similar to you in that Elves were just "Immortal (negative age modifiers do not apply)", but then noticed that Timeless Body was very similar to this and might fit Elves better (I will explain why further down in the post). Second, Willie the Duck, I will answer your question as I don't have a problem doing so and I believe it will enlighten the discussion for everyone. The campaigns I have run for the past 20 years are set in Ancient Mythological Europe. One of the 3 races of Elves I use are the Tuatha De Danann from Celtic mythology(the other 2 being Lios Alfar a/k/a Light Elves and Dokk Alfar a/k/a Dark Elves from Norse mythology). The Tuatha De Danann were thought to be immortal (and thus not age or incur aging effects) and possibly it can be interpreted that they were not affected by magical aging effects as they could return from the land of Tir Na nOg (the otherworld, the Isles of the Blessed) without incurring the magical time difference (aging effect) between the worlds. However, humans would incur this effect. It seems that the common agreement is that Timeless Body as a racial ability would not overpower a race due to the fact that characters hardly ever even reach middle age in campaigns and the fact that there aren't any core aging magical effects. I feel that Timeless Body might be worth "something", thus it might need to be balanced by replacing something else in the Elves' racial traits. I considered removing the +2 to Search checks and automatic Search check when within 10' of a secret door, but it is actually integral to this race as this "D&D idea" most likely comes from legends of the Sidhe (pronounced Shee) which is what the Tuatha De Danann become after they are driven underground in legend. I am considering the removal of the Elven weapon proficiencies to balance it out, or maybe just 1 or 2 of the weapon proficiencies. Opinion ??
Mai_ariti 06-09-07, 11:17 AM	If I may intrude- Dragon Magazine #354 provided the Endless special quality. It seems to fit better with what you want: Endless (ex): A creature with this special quality ceases to age once it reaches a certain point in it's life cycle, most often sometime after reaching adulthood but prior to middle age. These creatures exist in a special kind of physiological status, counteracting all the consequences of advancing years that usually leads to frailty and eventual death. While they must still perform all the necessary sustaining actions (eating, sleeping, breathing, and so on) normally demanded of their type, they never suffer from any sort of physical deterioration or consequent reduction in Str. Dex. or Con. Lacking this special insight into their own mortality, and the incentive to find new, less taxing ways to deal with challenges, they also never gain any improvements to their Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma due to advancing age. I think this may be a better option for you as it yields the same immortal effect as the Timeless quality but is not so unfair as to allow the aging benefits. I think of this as more like the Tolkien Elves but that's just my take on it. Also the Killoren in Races of the Wild are pseudo-immortal. You might want to look at that. Back to the argument about Elans: Apparently I need to look at the errata, they don't die? I like. . .
Lady Maedhros 06-09-07, 09:09 PM	I am considering the removal of the Elven weapon proficiencies to balance it out, or maybe just 1 or 2 of the weapon proficiencies. I really don't think there's a need for it, since at this point in the game's evolution a Timeless Body ability is pretty similar to the "trolls can reattach limbs" thing (ie leftover flavor). I've had to go to serious effort to get my campaigns to last more than a single year, forget decades. However, if you truly feel it needs balancing, the weapon profs aren't a bad thing to scratch, since they're kind of weird anyway (familiarity is a much better mechanic) - and while longbow and longsword proficiency does have a real mechanical impact on the game (saves archer clerics a feat and makes for slightly more party contribution from low-level wizards), it's not all that significant, or even necessarily noticeable, unlike the other elf stuff. It's also easy to justify flavor-wise; elves are magic-using hippies. If they want to be rangers, they take levels of ranger. Otherwise they learn to make physics cry three times before breakfast and don't have time for mundane crap like swords.
Lord Karsus 06-10-07, 11:50 PM	If I may intrude- Dragon Magazine #354 provided the Endless special quality. It seems to fit better with what you want: -Ah, that's right. There was an entire section about running "Ancient PCs".