Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gandrel 06-30-07, 01:43 PM	Hi folks! Long time i dont post here. Well the title says everything. I just wanna hear your experiencies playing monster races, like thri-kreen and even the good old half orc. The less human the better. As for me i always had a interest in playing a thri-kreen but never got a chance. The dm never alowed because was from the dark sun setting and he seens as a overpowered race. But roleplaying a big insetoid race must be tons of fun! As for my personal experiency i played a half orc barbarian...on Star Wars setting! And i had a warfoged fighter/barbarian/bard named Proktor that realy stealed the scene from the main characters.He was so loved by me and the others players that when he as destroyed we build another one from its scraps and baptized him Proktor 2.0! One of the others players even built a small warfoged rogue named Gimpy that hated humans for building him on a small size. Anyway, i dont even know if someone started a similar thread but i wanna hear you guys histories and opinions on the subject.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-30-07, 02:20 PM	Hi folks! Long time i dont post here. Well the title says everything. I just wanna hear your experiencies playing monster races, like thri-kreen and even the good old half orc. The less human the better. As for me i always had a interest in playing a thri-kreen but never got a chance. The dm never alowed because was from the dark sun setting and he seens as a overpowered race. But roleplaying a big insetoid race must be tons of fun! As for my personal experiency i played a half orc barbarian...on Star Wars setting! And i had a warfoged fighter/barbarian/bard named Proktor that realy stealed the scene from the main characters.He was so loved by me and the others players that when he as destroyed we build another one from its scraps and baptized him Proktor 2.0! One of the others players even built a small warfoged rogue named Gimpy that hated humans for building him on a small size. Anyway, i dont even know if someone started a similar thread but i wanna hear you guys histories and opinions on the subject. Expect the rest of your gaming group to think you're weird, and likewise expect some weird and hostile roleplaying too. From what I've seen, more monster characters are motivated by power-gaming than by a desire to role-play something strange (which is bad for DMs). Warforged and half-orcs aren't nearly as strange as some odd template/monster combinations I've seen.
Gandrel 06-30-07, 03:10 PM	Thanks for the input Thomar. My game felows already know that i like play weird classes/races. As for powergaming i realy try to avoid that and try new ways of "wining" without to have a big str. modifier or a kickass artifact spell/feat/mambo jambo. My fellows gamers otherwise are very hooked on online games so they naturaly tend to min/max their characters to be super efective. For example in our new star war saga campaing i play a duros noble that want restablish the galatic empire.And hes at lv. 1!The others players are a human scoundrel and a soldier that...hmm i dont know their personal motivation, but the campaign was built on our universal hatred on how jedi are superpowerful on star wars rpg.(althought all of us have the feat force sensitive tha let us use the force powers....)
danielinthewolvesden 06-30-07, 04:30 PM	More than an LA+1 and you are going to die.:weep:
Gandrel 06-30-07, 10:23 PM	Prety much like that. But i think there a lots of LA+1 that are ubber broken like the half giant, the goliath and the aasimar.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-01-07, 02:13 AM	Prety much like that. But i think there a lots of LA+1 that are ubber broken like the half giant, the goliath and the aasimar. I don't think the half-giant is overpowered at all. Not so sure about the aasimar, haven't seen it in action.
Manyfist 07-01-07, 02:30 AM	Well depending on your campaign, monster races might cause angry villagers. Other campaigns they might view the creature at arms length. In Dark Sun, Thri-Kreen entering a city might cause the guards to investigate however typically the guards wont attack unless attacked by.
Boarfury 07-01-07, 02:53 AM	I played a half-ogre barbarian named Punt the Cogre. He was a big ole, hurly burly, head stompin', scene makin', puppy-dog-like character that carried around this big big big flaming greatclub called the Punt Stick. Punt loved his momma and was known to sleep snuggled happily inside a gelatinous cube. Highlight of his short career: killing Bel, Lord of the First, almost single handedly. Also, I agree with Thomar: monster character = munchkin.
Gandrel 07-01-07, 06:32 PM	He. You remember me the time i played a hal ogre fighter sorcerer that was ass kicked in aone shot game arena style. And angry vilagers, militia, monsters hunter are just the "fun part" of playing a monstruous race. As for the thri-kreen, realy in dark sun scenario that would made sense. But in a generic fanstasy world i think they are too bizarre to let them simple walk around a vilage or city.
Gandrel 07-01-07, 06:39 PM	And for my considerations on thinking the aasimar, the goliath and the half giant broken: The first one gain +2 on on two atributes, spell like abilities for+1 adjustment. See the drows for instance that are+2 and even got a-2 atribute. Plus the aasimar are beatiful! You never gonna get a problem in any vilage or city or major problems making a disguise. The aslt two gotta the powerful build trait that ubber broken! All the advantages of large size and none of the problems! Go huge greatsword!
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-01-07, 07:46 PM	And for my considerations on thinking the aasimar, the goliath and the half giant broken: The first one gain +2 on on two atributes, spell like abilities for+1 adjustment. See the drows for instance that are+2 and even got a-2 atribute. Plus the aasimar are beatiful! You never gonna get a problem in any vilage or city or major problems making a disguise. The aslt two gotta the powerful build trait that ubber broken! All the advantages of large size and none of the problems! Go huge greatsword! Drow are widely considered to be underpowered. Being able to fit into an urban setting isn't usually considered in level adjustment. Yeah, that's the point of powerful build. However, it does not grant all of the benefits of Large size, as it does not grant 10' reach (the biggest ability Large creatures get). In the end, it's really not that powerful of an ability. At higher levels weapon size doesn't matter as much as weapon enhancements, special abilities (including iterative full attacks), and the Weapon Specialization feat chain.
Boarfury 07-01-07, 09:05 PM	Weapon enhancements...exactly. I can't remember the name of the enhancement, but it lets a weapon act as if it was one size catagory smaller. Gargantuan greatclub with this thing. I'm walking around with a flaming redwood tree as a weapon!
Mentar 07-01-07, 09:06 PM	My first monster was a goblin in a 2nd edition dwarven campaign. My motivation was getting revenge on the hobbies that had enslaved my people since before I was born. (pure role playing idea) My second was a minotaur, the idea of a big lumbering barely sentient brute who was actually a pacifist. Third was another goblin, this time it was simply a spur of the moment thing, my character died in action and the party captured a goblin on the same day. Fourth was Eberron, where I played a goblin rogue/wizard spy who was trying to gather blackmail information on the party to get them to help bring about the return of the grand empire. Since then I have played mostly normals, but planned odd race-class combinations as backup characters incase my character dies. I think my favorite planned character yet is the half-ogre (large size) with monkey grip (huge weapon) rogue. Imagine an 8 foot tall ogre sneaking up on you to sneak attack with a huge shortsword. Yes, most people look at monster races for the power gaming aspect and expect them to be able to walk into normal society without a problem, but for me it's a question of role-playing. I sometimes want to have my characters carry masterwork manacles and chains (specially made to be escapable but not look like it) and play the part of a slave the party has captured while adventuring. Sure, I may not be allowed into every town, but that builds teamwork when I show how much I trust others to purchase what I will need.
Gandrel 07-01-07, 09:17 PM	Drow are widely considered to be underpowered. Being able to fit into an urban setting isn't usually considered in level adjustment.. Yeah, I know ,thats just the point. Wich reminds how the lv. adjustment is a litle broken. I mean its serves to give you a notion, but realy dont considers the roleplay aspects of the game. Thats ok, this kind of knowlege comes with experiency, realy. Yeah, that's the point of powerful build. However, it does not grant all of the benefits of Large size, as it does not grant 10' reach (the biggest ability Large creatures get). In the end, it's really not that powerful of an ability. At higher levels weapon size doesn't matter as much as weapon enhancements, special abilities (including iterative full attacks), and the Weapon Specialization feat chain.[/QUOTE] See? Again you thinking only in mechanic terms. Even thinking in that way you gotta a advantage to be a medium creature, wich is very praticaly specialy on dungeoncrawling. Also on the point of munchikism thats realy frustrasting. I mean I think the guys that created the thri-kreen and others races dont created it thinking that would be a awesome kiling machine.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-01-07, 09:18 PM	The only reason why drow have +2 LA is because SR was gauged to be an "automatic" +1 LA increase all by itself. Otherwise they'd be +1. At +2 they wind up being rather feeble for their LA, since SR really doesn't merit an entire LA all by itself once the numbers are crunched, but the general approach to official LAs has been to cost things extremely conservatively (or even deliberately overcost them). Aasimar are one of the cases where the LA is actually probably about right. They're one of the few which that can be said about. If they *were* too good for their LA then you'd see people falling all over themselves to use an aasimar over a standard race whenever possible (or at least whenever anything which the aasimar's benefits help with). That doesn't happen, though; even with their benefits the loss of a class level hurts rather substantially.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-01-07, 09:25 PM	> Wich reminds how the lv. adjustment is a litle broken. I mean its serves to > give you a notion, but realy dont considers the roleplay aspects of the game. Because roleplaying advantages or disadvantages do not effectively balance against mechanical advantages or disadvantages. This is something which has been demonstrated time and again, and as such the design of 3E uses only mechanics to balance mechanics. And LA is a mechanic.
Gandrel 07-01-07, 09:26 PM	I sometimes want to have my characters carry masterwork manacles and chains (specially made to be escapable but not look like it) and play the part of a slave the party has captured while adventuring. Sure, I may not be allowed into every town, but that builds teamwork when I show how much I trust others to purchase what I will need. The manacles idea is awesome i wshould give it a shot sometime:)! But the part of teamwork is very complex. Most of monstruos characters would logicaly be killed by others "normal" characaters but thats the part that makes a monstruos characters remarkable.
Mentar 07-01-07, 09:44 PM	The first thing to think about is how your monstrous character would come to be with the party. As happened with my third, a group of enemies under mind control attacked the party, when the mind controlling monster was killed the little goblin surrendered. If the rest of the party hadn't decided not to kill the pitiful little thing I wouldn't have been able to use it. In Eberron, goblinoids and many other kinds of monstrous creatures are listed in side notes in books as "yea, they exist and may even be used as player characters without too much problem" but this could reduce the role-playing aspects, which led me to the idea of a spy trying to restore the empire. As for Drow.... If any of my characters sees one it's arrows and blades first, talk if (and only if) I decide to stabilize the thing to interrogate it. (I really dislike unoriginal, overused stereotypes for characters and have even almost knifed a human fighter trying to join the group. Well... He said his name was "Greed" and when asked how we could trust him he started getting philosophical with "What is trust?") Edit: Oh yes, I believe elves should have a LA+1 I mean 4 bonus feats, an ability I can't get even with a feat, immunity to sleep and bonuses against enchantments? Tack on the SR, extended darkvision, and other abilities for Drow, yea, +2LA minimum.
Aryxbez 07-01-07, 09:53 PM	Only on the boards have I seen that the LA in D&D is broke. The only broke races I think is that Thri-keen,that 4 armed bug, The half-giant, are they psionic or something? Also the Half-dragon, and the Goliath, at least the Goliath has alot of good role playing in it. Unlike most races nowadays, in fact that is the only reason Goliaths are in my campaign at all is due to them being actually interesting.
Manyfist 07-01-07, 10:09 PM	Only on the boards have I seen that the LA in D&D is broke. The only broke races I think is that Thri-keen,that 4 armed bug, The half-giant, are they psionic or something? Also the Half-dragon, and the Goliath, at least the Goliath has alot of good role playing in it. Unlike most races nowadays, in fact that is the only reason Goliaths are in my campaign at all is due to them being actually interesting. A.) Thri-Kreen have LA:+2 and 2HD they automatically start at 5th level (if you play one with a class). B.) Half Giants are very underpowered, 1/day Psi like ability with a Manifester level = 1/2 his class level, and its just Non-Lethal. Powerful Build is good only for a little more damage, no extra reach..etc. Only good thing besides Powerful Build was their +2 Str/Con and Giant Type. However most powers targeting Humanoids only 2 more pp and it targets giants. C.) Half-Dragons automatically receive LA:+3 on top of any other LA. Their breath weapon isn't that great 1/day, only thing to justify their LA is Dragon type and their Ability modifiers. Good for a Melee (maybe) but really unimpressive, for a Human Fighter at the same aprox level would have more feats, and better BAB. D.) Goliath well, I can't really say they are LA:+1 and just like the Half-Giant have good ability modifiers. LA:+1 should count for an actual level loss, for the abilities too great for a normal LA:+0. Gnomes, Elves, and Dwarves are often more powerful than the majority of the LA:+1 Monster races.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-01-07, 10:16 PM	> In Eberron, goblinoids and many other kinds of monstrous creatures are listed > in side notes in books as "yea, they exist and may even be used as player > characters without too much problem That's because they're essentially standard races there, just like shifters and changelings and warforged, all of which would most certainly be considered "nonstandard" in the generic or FR setting.
Aryxbez 07-01-07, 10:19 PM	Well the first two I only heard were broke from the boards, the others are due to play experience and preference. Otherwise you are probably right on the halfdragon. Although pretty much everyone on the boards will disagree, I think using the monster class HD is a decent way to balance monsters. Except of course for those creatures going into the High LA/HD and such.
Manyfist 07-01-07, 11:03 PM	Well the first two I only heard were broke from the boards, the others are due to play experience and preference. Otherwise you are probably right on the halfdragon. Although pretty much everyone on the boards will disagree, I think using the monster class HD is a decent way to balance monsters. Except of course for those creatures going into the High LA/HD and such. I usually take off LA reduce it by 1-2 and then add the rest to HD. I think that a monster should be challenging and for PCs playing monsters should have more HP to survive.
Gandrel 07-02-07, 03:24 PM	Nothing against discussing the mechanics of LA but what i realy wanna hear is how was the roleplay of yours as monstrous races. I realy wasting my repertoire of tales of monstrous characters except.. ah..i remember! in the arena game we played one my friends played as a formiam that used two dual lightsabers! He was like a REAL alien! Something to do with the spelljammer setting. But that was a one shot game that dm alowed us to use strange races WITHOUT LA... was very munchikin fun but the characters barely roleplay.... Imagine a group that consists of a half ogre soreceror with a greatsword, a formian with dual light sabers and lizardfolk druid with dinossaurs for animal companions and you get the picture.
Lelander_the_L 07-02-07, 04:25 PM	my dm will let us be Frost Giants.......but only in the Desert XD I play a Warforged fighter and I had to roll a one ton barrel of black powder back to our base six miles, by myself, because the rest of the party didn't want to be tired in case the base was attacked........
Gandrel 07-02-07, 05:04 PM	Wow. you were the robot slave XD!
Lelander_the_L 07-02-07, 05:18 PM	yeah but I have a Scythe plus one and I get to throw the Dromite XD
bpkri 07-03-07, 07:48 AM	Hmm I love drow - maybe I'm a bit of a fanboy - but I do like them for roleplaying reasons. I must admit, I can't always free my mind of the numbers, the ECL+2 does hurt, and you have to watch staying alife like that. Makes one wonder, how the drow can actually be such dreaded opponents, doesn't it? Well anyway, I think it is fun! I've seldom had that much fun as with this character. She behaves rather totally nice (on the outside), but can be a backstabbing ***** if she needs to. She is Kirris, a Cleric (Chaotic Evil) or the Promise of Fire (Yep: Eberron Campaign setting). I am the exotic one in our group and luckily the Drow in Eberron are not as well known and dreaded as in the standard settings. But I would try playing someone like her in a standard setting too. *evilgrin* Out GM was afraid I was aiming for the powergamer corner, but I think I manged to display I was more interested in the exotic race and social itneraction thant domination of the group.
jaw4ever 07-03-07, 09:29 AM	In my group, I'm known for playing monster races. I constantly sing the praises of Savage Species, and keep searching the boards for fan-made monster classes. Luckly, I've had DMs who were cool about my monstrous pcs: all long as it was balanced with the group, they were ok with it. Last week, I played a gesalt hound archon monster class/paladin lvl 5, but he perished fighting a vampire. :( I have also played in an evil campaign , an gesalt evil pixie monster class/sorcerer. During an aslaught on a keep, my pixie sorcerer flew in using his greater invisibility and found the enemy wizard, studying his spellbook in his quarters. One flesh to stone cast (saving throw failed) and one magic missile later, let's just say the wizard fell all to pieces. :schemes: In another evil campaign I got to play another gesalt monster class/sorcerer, this time a rakasha. None of my evil companions like the fact I could read thoughts at will. :evillaugh There are many other examples that fail me now, but I really like playing the strange, the bizarre, the unexpected. But I know it wouldn't be popssible if my DM would not allow it. Work with your DM and see what monster PC possibilities you have. :thumbsup:
Soltares 07-03-07, 12:30 PM	Towards the end of 2nd Ed, after the release of the Complete Book of Humanoids and Complete Spelljammers Handbook, we got pretty jaded and played all sorts of exotic beasties. We had stuff like a party that included a Xixchil (much like a Thri-Kreen), an Ogre Mage, a Minotaur and a Wemic, for instance. Other times, people played Giff or Centaurs or '1/2 Ogre Magi' or Gnomish Giant Space Werehamsters... Aquatic races were a theme for awhile, lots of Aquatic Elves, 1/2 Aquatic Elves, Aquatic Hobgoblins, etc. Parties of all monsters can be fun, or a single monster as part of a party of otherwise 'normal' humans and demihumans can also be fun, with the right player. With the wrong player, it can degenerate into the less-than-thrilling adventures of 'Mister Monster and his boring suboptimal sidekicks.' Since 3e, we've been more toned down. Humans, with that free Feat, are suddenly too sexy, and that Level Adjustment thing scares us away from most 'monster' PCs. Last thing I want is for my Wyrmling Dragon PC to be stuck in a 12th level party and get SNAP'd by a freaking Color Spray because he's got half the HD of the rest of his party...
BW0222 07-03-07, 03:10 PM	Gandrel, General takes.... 1. High LA causes huge problems. A +4 LA pixie might be fun but it isn't balanced. At APL 5, it will either blow through encounters (with no hope that the bad guys can stop it) or it will be killed (with no hope of suriving). 2. Large and tiny races cause problems. Large folks who can't fit in dungeons, can't squeeze through doorways to talk to the NPCs, can't get mounts, can't get into the boat to get across the river, etc., effectively leave folks out of the adventure. Likewise, tiny creatures who can't carry treasure, open doors, drag an injured PC to safety, etc. are often excluded from participating. 3. Any race which can't talk causes problems as do any that don't understand the language. Most players can't go ten minutes without talking. The game isn't much fun if you can't participate. 4. Any race unable to maniputate objects. Folks who want to play snakes, bears, etc. who can't open a chest, door, potion bottle, use equipment, etc. 5. Any race unable to survive in typical environments. Folks without land speeds, folks who can't breath air, vampires who can't go out in the day, etc. 6. Any race who is dramatically hunted, hated, etc. in the campaign setting. No point in being a troll if it is a death penalty offense in the kingdom just being one. Now, folks will tell you that it can be fun. However, I've yet to see any of the above last in a campaign of any serious length. Dealing with villager wanting to stone a PC may be fun, getting a ogre into a 3' wide passageway, or figuring out to get a merfolk into town... the first time. After the tenth time, it gets mighty frustrating.
Gandrel 07-03-07, 04:22 PM	Well, you pointy all the problems that MIGHT come in roleplaying a monstruos race BW0222.
AllWillFall2Me 07-03-07, 05:28 PM	I've played a couple good monsters. Or played with them. One campaign I played in, I was an Immortal Elf Mystic Theurge who worshipped the concept of Wealth. (The DM and I were friends, and my elf did live up to the role. If he didn't like you, he charged for spells, (One good conversation: "Ok, I'll ressurect your guy for 50k." "50 THOUSAND?! It only costs you 10!" "yes, but firstly, you're a mind flayer, what other cleric is going to be willing to do this? Secondly, you leapt unannounced on the back of my friend, so I have every incentive to leave you dead; Thirdly, if you don't like it, I'll steal all the crap off your corpse, and leave you dead." "...Deal.") he'd do magic in town to help their economic base, etc.) But, what made the group interesting was my...Well, manservant is a strong word. He was my brother's character, and essentially, my char had found the most intimidating bodyguard he could. A six-armed, half red-dragon, Minotaur Barbarian. (we were 16th level.) The Minotaur had a Strength that ranged (or should I say, Raged?) around 46 or so. I know it can be beat, but the terror he inflicted whenever he removed the illusionary amulet I made him to calm townspeople. One monster I myself played was a Phoelarch. I was handsome, in my own way, but very birdlike. What I liked most was I wielded a +1 Frost, shocking, acidic, keen falchion. For those unaware, a phoelarch essentially grants flaming to all metal weapons it wields. I had elemental damage covered. Also, I made a point of buying flying things. I've always wanted to run a lycanthrope game.
Gandrel 07-03-07, 07:44 PM	Fun story :). Crazy party.