Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheDarkPrince 08-09-07, 06:38 PM	What amount of LA would a template be worth if it gave: 1) A scaled Fast Healing equal to half your character levels? 2) Fast Healing 5? Thanks, Cheers! :D
schpeelah 08-10-07, 04:23 AM	2) +2 I am the king of oneliners!
Radijs 08-10-07, 07:09 AM	How well would the fast healing scale? If fast healing = HD I wouldn't make it playable. Fast healing 1 per 4 HD I'd say LA 2. But thats just a wild guess.
runestar 08-10-07, 07:20 AM	Even fast healing 1 without scaling is very useful, since it essentially means that so long as you survive a fight, it is as good as not having taken any damage at all. IMO, the first point of fast healing is the most useful, and additional points of fast healing are less valuable, though they definitely should not be discounted. As for a fair price? Not sure, but maybe somewhere between LA+1 and +2.
Lawlicron 08-10-07, 08:09 AM	Fast Healing is really powerful and I agree with everything above me except the LA suggestion. Non-scaling Fast healing should be LA+2 (Like everyone has suggested). Scaling fast healing should be somewhere at LA+3 or LA+4 though, depending on how it scales.
strenoth 08-10-07, 09:55 AM	he siad equal to half yoru character level, so level 12 = fast healing 6, etc.
TheDarkPrince 08-10-07, 02:43 PM	Why so high? Wouldn't a combat effective version (regeneration) be worth 3 or 4? Out of combat its worth some, like 1 or 2, but as high as 3 or 4?? Really? Thanks for the help, Cheers! :D
Context 08-10-07, 03:10 PM	A lot of people place fast healing and regeneration as super-powers or game breakers. The common wisdom is that fast healing has a negligible effect on combat, more flavour then practicality, but a vast and powerful effect -out- of combat. For this reason, it is handed out like candy to mid to high level monsters, but it remains severely restricted to PC's. Even Fast Healing 1 gives you unlimited self healing out of combat. ... That's what common wisdom says, but I think that's bunk. Out of combat you have dozens or hundreds of ways of getting unlimited free healing, (Binders, for example, or Dread Necromancers with tomb-tainted soul). Even things like wands of lesser vigor make out of combat healing an inexpensive joke. After level one or two, in you have a brain in your head, you're probably going to have full health after any fight that you survive. At that point, what does fast healing really do? It decreases somewhat the necessary resources you put towards healing. It has a negligible effect on combat, and out of combat it's pretty much flavour. You chug less health potions... that's about it. I would give fast healing 1 (entirely useless in combat, but handy out of combat) at the cost of a feat. For fast healing levels that might actually save your life (3+), that I would give a level of +1.
TheDarkPrince 08-10-07, 03:17 PM	Thanks. That's what I thought also. I never understood why people thought it was worth so much, when you can practically heal for free out of combat. Cheers! :D
Matthew77 08-10-07, 03:36 PM	Thanks. That's what I thought also. I never understood why people thought it was worth so much, when you can practically heal for free out of combat. I would hardly call 1.36 GP per HP "free", even if you play in a campaign where buying wands on demand is easy. Someone above claimed there were "hundreds" of ways to get unlimited out of combat healing, and then mentioned two. Both of which are from variant campaign books. I recently played a 10th level campaign in which 2 characters had fast healing (from a template) and 2 did not. The two that had to expend resources to heal out of combat were at a significant disadvantage. Both mechanically (1.36 GP per HP even with the most efficient healing magic) and ancedotally, Fast Healing is an ability that can significantly change a campaign's dynamics.
DrRufio 08-10-07, 03:48 PM	When you say healing is practically free you are assuming that 1: you can find as many of whatever item as you need (these things aren't made in factories) 2: you can easily get them out of combat (but last I checked most dungeons don't have stores open for business) 3: you have people in the party that can use the magic items (usually true, but hardly 100%) 4: You are playing a high level campaign and have as much gold as you can carry (a good amount of campaigns take place from level 3-8. buying magic items is a big deal, and less importantly you can only carry so much stuff/gold) because of that alone, fast healing is a huge deal in addition to it being free healing in combat that doesn't use an action. I would give fast healing 5 a +2 LA scaling fast healing is questionable, but fast healing equal to 1/2 your HD I would say would be a +2 LA also, because half the time it is worse than fast healing 5 and half the time it is better, but you shouldn't use that as a replacement for fast healing 5 just so you can get more fast healing in a high level campaign.
TheDarkPrince 08-10-07, 04:01 PM	Sorry, I know I spoke too quickly. Fast Healing can be useful, but in the campaigns I've played, there is almost no downtime between battles, so very little healing is done out of combat. What is healed out of combat is usually done by leftover spells, spontaneous casting with left over spells, or healed by baught items. So I considered fast healing for the campaigns I play in to be like a toned down regeneration. Its not instant, hence the ability to take damage no matter what, but it is still a lot faster than normal healing. What about fast healing, that doesn't heal wounds dealt by fire or acid. (or a certain kind of damage, aka piercing, etc.) Thanks, Cheers! :D
DrRufio 08-10-07, 04:24 PM	When it comes to adjustments made based on specific campaigns rather than all campaigns, then it is beteen you and your DM.
Captain_Kobold 08-10-07, 09:46 PM	What amount of LA would a template be worth if it gave: 1) A scaled Fast Healing equal to half your character levels? 2) Fast Healing 5? Thanks, Cheers! :D What else does this template of yours give? Its a lot easier to work out LA from the complete list than to try to work out each individual ability then add them all together. For example, I would agree with the majority of posters that just Fast healing is worth a +2 LA simply for the effect it will have at low level. If adding it to an existing ECL of 5 though, it might only be worth +1 since there are now other methods of efficient healing starting to become available. What is the fluff behind the template? I'm assuming that its not just a "I want to have this cool ability so I'll just call it a template" type thing.
TheDarkPrince 08-11-07, 12:23 AM	No, its for a low caste of troll. I would like them to be a playable race, with little (+1) or no LA. They still heal a lot faster than other races, but can't regenerate limbs. (Unless they take racial levels, but I'll have that figured out after this...) I was thinking fast healing 3-5 total (Maybe at the end of a scaled progression.....like 1 point of fast healing per five levels...), and I know its campaign specific, but I would like help measuring what the LA would be in our campaign setting. Thanks, Cheers! :D
Dragom 08-11-07, 02:19 AM	Healing for free? People may go on about how overpowered the Cleric and Druid are, but I only ever get to have such a class played in my games about 1/3 of the time. Mainly because I offered a free level. It's all "I'm a 10th level fighter and I'm going to get by on potions of cure light wounds." I don't know what game your playing, but it has no resemblence to the one over here.
natzero 08-11-07, 10:54 AM	ok fast healing vs non fast healing non fast healing: u heal 1 HP per char level per day of rest. you are lvl 1. You rest an entire day- heal 1 HP. fast healing 1: you heal 1 HP per round (ie. every 6 seconds) you rest for 1 minute-- heal 10 HP theres a difference id like to have fast healing 1 on any char, any level. Its far more useful than words can say. ;p srry but la +2 minimum, maybe +1 for fast healing 1, but not with anythin else.
Context 08-11-07, 11:22 AM	I imagine that this is something that will have to be playtested to determine it's actual impact on gameplay. I remain unconvinced that a low-level fast healing effect will do anything significant to gameplay. You would need to test it.
EvilVegan 08-11-07, 11:47 AM	What amount of LA would a template be worth if it gave: 1) A scaled Fast Healing equal to half your character levels? 2) Fast Healing 5? Thanks, Cheers! :D By itself it isn't even worth a LA. A human with fast healing 1 instead of a feat and skill points would be weak. A template that grants fast healing 1-5 (hit die / 4) would require at least one or more of the following: +2 net ability modifier Enhanced senses (scent/darkvision + low light) Natural armor Bonus Movement Look at the Feral Template. Look at the Mineral Warrior template. Both +1 LA, both have way more than just fast healing. Both are a little over-powered, but not because of the fast healing. Between combat healing is worth about 7500-10000 gold for 20 levels. Compare to a wand of lesser vigor. The ECL calculator (somewhere in my sig) puts fast healing as +.5 ECL. Personally I'd put it at .3. In other words a 1st level human with nothing other than fast healing 1-5 (scaling) would be ECL .3.
EvilVegan 08-11-07, 11:55 AM	I imagine that this is something that will have to be playtested to determine it's actual impact on gameplay. I remain unconvinced that a low-level fast healing effect will do anything significant to gameplay. You would need to test it.I have. I played a feral warblade. His fast healing helped almost none in combat and out of combat it doesn't matter. Being healed at the beginning of combat is great and all, but most things that can kill you are going to do so even if you get a minor heal every round you're damaged. Fast healing 5 is worth about DR 1/- in my opinion. And you can get DR 2/- with a feat (Armor spec) or material (adamantine).
Holy_Beholder 08-11-07, 01:16 PM	Fast healing 5 should probably only be +1 LA, there are ways to get it. The natures warrior in complete warrior can get it without too much trouble, although it isn't as powerful. There are other ways as well. As for Fast Healing 1/2 level, that is also worth +1 LA, and matters much less at low levels. Can we see the rest of the template though?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-11-07, 07:00 PM	By itself it isn't even worth a LA. A human with fast healing 1 instead of a feat and skill points would be weak. A template that grants fast healing 1-5 (hit die / 4) would require at least one or more of the following: +2 net ability modifier Enhanced senses (scent/darkvision + low light) Natural armor Bonus Movement Look at the Feral Template. Look at the Mineral Warrior template. Both +1 LA, both have way more than just fast healing. Both are a little over-powered, but not because of the fast healing. Between combat healing is worth about 7500-10000 gold for 20 levels. Compare to a wand of lesser vigor. The ECL calculator (somewhere in my sig) puts fast healing as +.5 ECL. Personally I'd put it at .3. In other words a 1st level human with nothing other than fast healing 1-5 (scaling) would be ECL .3. Picking what is considered to be one of the most obscenely overpowered templates ever, and then its runner-up for your examples is not exactly the best thing you could have done to support your argument.
TheDarkPrince 08-11-07, 07:37 PM	Well, the rest of the template doesn't include much. Fast Healing was about all of it. Troll Blooded Think of this template as a troll version of an aasimar or tiefling....just for any race....or maybe it should be a race in and of itself, but that might change the LA. Generations ago, your family interbred with Trolls, and since then, your family has enjoyed extraordinary healing. Benefit: You gain one point of fast healing per four levels. How's that?
EvilVegan 08-12-07, 08:55 AM	Picking what is considered to be one of the most obscenely overpowered templates ever, and then its runner-up for your examples is not exactly the best thing you could have done to support your argument. You forgot to mention that feral is 3.25. :P Anyway, I played a feral wood elf. The fast healing was almost completely useless, and eventually I died to a dire tiger in 2 rounds (well I was dropped to negatives, and our dread necromancer (my wife) decided to fell animate me with a death knell instead of waiting for my fast healing to heal me). Regardless of the power level of the template itself, the over-powered portion doesn't come from fast healing. It comes from the scent, darkvision, speed, natural armor, natural attacks, special attacks, and stat modifiers that make it a crazy good melee combatant. Have you played a feral creature? Theoretical discussions are fun and all, but play-testing is where its at. I'm not assuming you haven't played one, but I recommend it if you get a chance. Just run them through a few fights and see how much the fast healing helps. Fast healing 1 is worth about 7,500 - 10,000 gold over 20 levels, with a scaling cost/benefit (its only worth about 200 gold at 1st level, but about 2000 gold at 20th level). Its like having an unlimited supply of lesser vigor wands.
EvilVegan 08-12-07, 09:04 AM	Well, the rest of the template doesn't include much. Fast Healing was about all of it. Troll Blooded Think of this template as a troll version of an aasimar or tiefling....just for any race....or maybe it should be a race in and of itself, but that might change the LA. Generations ago, your family interbred with Trolls, and since then, your family has enjoyed extraordinary healing. Benefit: You gain one point of fast healing per four levels. How's that?No LA or drawbacks? While fast healing isn't worth an LA by itself, you shouldn't give it away for free. You have to balance it. I'd say -4 charisma or -2 intelligence & charisma. And it needs some other penalty. I'd also give the template darkvision (at least 30', 60' preferable) and another penalty (exotic armor requirement is always nice). I know in old school Shadow Run the troll's regeneration caused their body to be in pain because it kept growing new organs, teeth, etc while the existing organs were still functioning. It was flavor only, but it made them slightly disfigured and uncomfortable. I always thought it was cool. I ran the numbers in the ECL calculator (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html): Troll-Blooded Template The troll blooded template is an inherited template that can be applied to any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant. Type: Unchanged. Ability Modifiers: -2 penalty to Intelligence and Charisma. Your primal nature hinders your learning and your interactions with others. Also, you're kind of lumpy. Fast healing: You gain fast healing 1 per four hit die, minimum of 1. That's an even +0 ECL. Also you could further add: Darkvision: You gain darkvision 60'. If you already have darkvision your existing darkvision improves by 30'. Exotic Body: Your body is slightly hunched and has unseemly bulges that make it impossible to wear armor designed for a normal humanoid. Armor costs twice as much for you. And its still balanced! But lets just go crazy insane: Type: Unchanged. Ability Modifiers: +2 strength and constitution; -2 penalty to Intelligence and Charisma. Your primal nature hinders your learning and your interactions with others. Also, you're kind of lumpy. Natural armor: +1 Darkvision: You gain darkvision 60'. If you already have darkvision your existing darkvision improves by 30'. Scent: You gain the scent ability. Scary!: You gain a +2 bonus on intimidate checks. Regeneration: You gain regeneration 1. This improves to regeneration 2 at 11+ hit die. You take normal damage from acid and fire. OW THAT BURNS!: You take double damage from acid and fire. Chomp!: You gain a bite attack appropriate for your size (d4 for small, d6 for medium, d8 for large, 2d6 for huge, 3d6 for gargantuan, 4d6 for collosal) Exotic Body: Your body is slightly hunched and has unseemly bulges that make it impossible to wear armor designed for a normal humanoid. Armor costs twice as much for you. Eternally Dead: You can't be raised from the dead. Now the ECL calculator says this is balanced at +0 ECL. So it isn't exactly perfect. I'd put this at +1.
Holy_Beholder 08-12-07, 09:44 AM	How about these names: Troll-Blooded Template The troll blooded template is an inherited template that can be applied to any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant. Type: Unchanged. Ability Modifiers: +2 strength and constitution; -2 penalty to Intelligence and Charisma. Your primal nature hinders your learning and your interactions with others. Also, you're kind of lumpy. Natural armor: +1 Darkvision: You gain darkvision 60'. If you already have darkvision your existing darkvision improves by 30'. Scent: You gain the scent ability. +2 Bonus to intimidate. Regeneration: You gain regeneration 1. This improves to regeneration 2 at 11+ hit die. You take normal damage from acid and fire. Fire Vulnerability: You take double damage from fire. Acid Vulnerability: You take double damage from acid. Bite Attack: You gain a bite attack appropriate for your size (d4 for small, d6 for medium, d8 for large, 2d6 for huge, 3d6 for gargantuan, 4d6 for colossal) Exotic Body: Your body is slightly hunched and has unseemly bulges that make it impossible to wear armor designed for a normal humanoid. Armor costs twice as much for you. I removed eternally dead, its just unfair. I also changed some of the names so they look a little more professional. Then I fixed the spelling of colossal. Other than that it is practically the same template.
EvilVegan 08-12-07, 09:53 AM	It was a joke example (hence the silly names), but yes I did mispell colossal (I don't spell check jokes) :D. Eternally dead is not only fair, it is balancing. It balances out the darkvision or one of the stat modifiers or the natural armor.
Captain_Kobold 08-13-07, 08:30 AM	Anything involving regeneration is going to need to be a fairly high ECL. Not because of the 1 hp/round, but because the vast majority of low-level encounters simply Can. Not. Kill. You. In order to kill a character with regeneration, a foe would need to be either intelligent and have access to fire or acid as well as the time to apply them, have natural fire or acid attacks, or be able to swallow the character whole. Not many low-level opponents fit into these categories. Even humans are unlikely to ignore the attacks of the rest of the party to get out their flint and tinder. The only common source of fire or acid damage at low levels is spells. These also work against the rest of the party though. You might not be of much use to the rest of the party with a low-level regeneration, but you yourself are likely to survive. If you really want to have a creature with a lowish LA that regenerates, I would suggest: 1st to 2nd level: Character regains one lost HP/hour of rest. 3rd level: Character gains fast healing 1. This increases by one every odd level. At some point between 7th and 10th level, the character must take a 'dead level' as if just gaining a +1 LA. They replace their fast healing ability with Regeneration of 1/2 HD. This is penetrated by fire and acid. This ability set is worth more than a feat, but probably not worth an LA in and of itself.
AllisterH 08-13-07, 08:49 AM	It depends on how you view Fast-Healing mechanically. I know many DMs who allow Fast Healing to work even when you're at negative HP which means that you will automatically stabilize. (I personally don't think that's true though)
Lawlicron 08-13-07, 09:07 AM	It depends on how you view Fast-Healing mechanically. I know many DMs who allow Fast Healing to work even when you're at negative HP which means that you will automatically stabilize. (I personally don't think that's true though) Thats actually how it works, which is why it is so good at low levels.
EvilVegan 08-13-07, 04:57 PM	I allow it. Star Wars Saga edition basically made everyone have a form of fast healing and its almost impossible to die in a standard combat. I don't see PC survivability as a drawback to anything. . .