Feral Template Progression [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feral Template Progression [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Spikes01k
04-04-08, 11:59 PM Feral Template Progression Class

Requirements: Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid type only

Advancement: Please note this is a savage progression, not a class. You MUST take this at first level or take the ritual to change your race to progress mid game. In ether case you must complete the entire progression class until the character has completed 11 of the 12 levels. However, you may stop before level 11, but this entails a +1 level adjustment; but you obtain all the normal bonuses for taking the template with the LA +1. After level 11 you can start taking levels into class levels and can come back at a later level and take the last level in the feral progression with no minuses.

Creature Type: Changes to Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Die: D10
Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: Natural and simple weapons. No armor or shields.
Skills: (2+int)x4, 2+int
Class Skills (Stat modifier): Climb (Str), Jump (Str), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Base Attack Bonus: Full
Fort Saves: Good
Reflex Saves: Good
Will Saves: Poor

Stat modifiers: +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis (should be balanced)

Level Progression:
1 Darkvision 30ft, Claws 1D3
2 Improved Grab, +5ft land speed, Natural Armor +1
3 Fast Healing 1
4 Darkvision 60ft, Claws 1D4, +5ft land speed, Natural Armor +1
5 Pounce
6 Fast Healing: 2, Natural Armor +1
7 Darkvision: 90ft, Claws 1D6
8 Rake, +2 Str, Natural Armor +1
9 Fast Healing: 3
10 Darkvision: 120ft, Claws 1D8, Natural Armor +1
11 Rend
12 Fast Healing: 5, Natural Armor +1
______________________________

Basically I combined the monstrous humanoid class with the feral creature template. I added a few skills, but please tell me what you think. Also I did eliminate the +1 LA by this build. This is reasonably balanced due to the fact that till you reach about 12th level in the template you are collectively weaker than a creature of the same hit die/level.
Jaxgaret
04-05-08, 01:55 AM That's a pretty interesting idea.

At first glance, it seems overpowered. But it's really not, when compared to something like a Warblade or an optimized Fighter. It seems fine to me, or perhaps a bit too powerful.

Also, you should spread out the NA progression, instead of giving it in chunks of +3. Perhaps give +1 every other level until you reach the max. Do the same thing with Fast Healing; start it off with Fast Healing 1, and add 1 to the Fast Healing every other level. I would suggest doing that for most of their abilities, actually.

Maybe something like this:

1 Darkvision 30ft, Claws 1D3, -4 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Str, -2 Dex
2 Natural Armor +1, Fast Healing 1, +10' land speed
3 Improved Grab, Claws 1D4
4 Darkvision 60ft, Natural Armor +2, Fast Healing 2
5 Pounce, Claws 1d6
6 Natural Armor +3, Fast Healing 3
7 +2 Str, +2 Con, Claws 1d8
8 Darkvision 90ft, Natural Armor +4, Fast Healing 4
9 Rake, Claws 1d10
10 Natural Armor +5, Fast Healing 5
11 Darkvision 120ft, Claws 1d12
12 Rend, Natural Armor +6, Fast Healing 6
13 Powerful Build, Claws 2d6
14 Natural Armor +7, Fast Healing 7

And then you can flesh out the class with more abilities after level 14. Maybe even include an eventual increase to Large size.
Shadowhowler
04-05-08, 02:05 AM Why is it poor Fort save and Good Ref and Will? I would think Poor Will and Good Ref and Fort would make more sense.
Jaxgaret
04-05-08, 02:17 AM Why is it poor Fort save and Good Ref and Will? I would think Poor Will and Good Ref and Fort would make more sense.

Monstrous Humanoids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType) get poor Fort and good Reflex/Will.
Spikes01k
04-05-08, 11:59 AM Monstrous Humanoids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType) get poor Fort and good Reflex/Will.

Yay!!! Some one knows their stuff!!

________________________________________ ______________
That's a pretty interesting idea.

At first glance, it seems overpowered. But it's really not, when compared to something like a Warblade or an optimized Fighter. It seems fine to me, or perhaps a bit too powerful.

Also, you should spread out the NA progression, instead of giving it in chunks of +3. Perhaps give +1 every other level until you reach the max. Do the same thing with Fast Healing; start it off with Fast Healing 1, and add 1 to the Fast Healing every other level. I would suggest doing that for most of their abilities, actually.

Maybe something like this:

1 Darkvision 30ft, Claws 1D3, -4 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Str, -2 Dex
2 Natural Armor +1, Fast Healing 1, +10' land speed
3 Improved Grab, Claws 1D4
4 Darkvision 60ft, Natural Armor +2, Fast Healing 2
5 Pounce, Claws 1d6
6 Natural Armor +3, Fast Healing 3
7 +2 Str, +2 Con, Claws 1d8
8 Darkvision 90ft, Natural Armor +4, Fast Healing 4
9 Rake, Claws 1d10
10 Natural Armor +5, Fast Healing 5
11 Darkvision 120ft, Claws 1d12
12 Rend, Natural Armor +6, Fast Healing 6
13 Powerful Build, Claws 2d6
14 Natural Armor +7, Fast Healing 7

And then you can flesh out the class with more abilities after level 14. Maybe even include an eventual increase to Large size.

Thanks, I missed the +2 to con. I really wanted to pack everything they got in the 1st hit die into the first 3 levels, sense that would be more to par with the template. However if I need to spreed it out more to eliminate the LA, then I might do that. Maybe something like this?

Stat modifiers: +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis (should be balanced)

1 Darkvision 60ft, Claws 1D6, Natural Armor +2
2 Natural Armor +2, Fast Healing 1, +10' land speed
3 Improved Grab, Claws 1D8, Natural Armor +2, +2 Str
4
5 Fast Healing: 3
6 Pounce
7 Darkvision: 90ft
8 Fast Healing: 4
9 Rake
10 Darkvision: 120ft
11 Fast Healing: 5
12 Rend

_______________________
As you can see I had a formula where there was, 1: darvision, 2: fast healing, then 3: special ability; least to best, to try and keep it balanced.
G_Mancer
04-05-08, 03:24 PM At first i thought: "ugh, this is gonna suck", but great job. i would TOtally play this. each level he gets more freakish lookin and insanely stronger. it's aa much better option than war hulk.
Spikes01k
04-05-08, 05:47 PM At first i thought: "ugh, this is gonna suck", but great job. i would TOtally play this. each level he gets more freakish lookin and insanely stronger. it's aa much better option than war hulk.

I just updated it. I am not sure if this is too powerful though...
HernetheHunter
04-05-08, 10:09 PM HD should be an 8.
Spikes01k
04-05-08, 10:15 PM HD should be an 8.

Are you talking balance? Because the feral template makes it a D10
Spikes01k
04-05-08, 11:02 PM Just having fun. Thinking about a more spread out progression.

1 Darkvision 30ft, Claws 1D3, Natural Armor +1
2 Fast Healing 1, +5ft land speed
3 Improved Grab, Claws 1D4, Natural Armor +1
4 Darkvision 60ft, +2 Str, +5ft land speed
5 Fast Healing: 3, Claws 1D6, Natural Armor +1
6 Pounce
7 Darkvision: 90ft, Claws 1D8, Natural Armor +1
8 Fast Healing: 4
9 Rake, Natural Armor +1
10 Darkvision: 120ft
11 Fast Healing: 5, Natural Armor +1
12 Rend

Although I personally don't like this, due to it is actually WAY weaker than a normal creature with the template, it is actually much more balanced per level.
Jaxgaret
04-05-08, 11:12 PM Losing HD to a template with LA really hurts. This savage progression doesn't have to deal with that loss.
Spikes01k
04-05-08, 11:23 PM Losing HD to a template with LA really hurts. This savage progression doesn't have to deal with that loss.

Hmmm I was hoping that doing it this way would eliminate the +1 LA. Would you think not, still too powerful?
Jaxgaret
04-06-08, 12:32 AM Hmmm I was hoping that doing it this way would eliminate the +1 LA. Would you think not, still too powerful?

Well that's why I suggested you spread the abilities out over the levels, instead of stacking them all in the first 3.
Spikes01k
04-06-08, 12:38 AM Well that's why I suggested you spread the abilities out over the levels, instead of stacking them all in the first 3.

Good point. Changing table.

P.S.

Just a side note, my dream character with this is a dragon born gray elf with the dark creature template. I think that would be really cool to play.
Shadowhowler
04-06-08, 12:34 PM Monstrous Humanoids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType) get poor Fort and good Reflex/Will.

Hm. Just seems odd to me... the way the Feral Creature is laid out it screams "Tough as nails"... a good Fort save would make a hell of a lot more sense with it then a good will save.
Spikes01k
04-07-08, 12:31 AM Hm. Just seems odd to me... the way the Feral Creature is laid out it screams "Tough as nails"... a good Fort save would make a hell of a lot more sense with it then a good will save.

I have been talking to my gaming groups and you are correct. I will be changing it to good fort and ref.

As well as spreading out the abilities differently.
Spikes01k
04-11-08, 06:18 PM Just bumping to find out if anyone else had any opinions.
Drackthor
04-11-08, 11:50 PM I never really got these things. So I get all these things for 1 LA or I dump 12 levels that I could've put into a real class instead? Seems kinda like giving up +1 LA for +12 LA
Spikes01k
04-11-08, 11:56 PM I never really got these things. So I get all these things for 1 LA or I dump 12 levels that I could've put into a real class instead? Seems kinda like giving up +1 LA for +12 LA

Sorry, but you can't get any of the abilities listed requiring racial hit die with out this progression or racial hit dice of your own.

If you have racial hit die, you can take a +1 LA and go with what your hit dice allow, or you can take no LA and gain ALL the abilities by gaining racial hit dice via this progression.

Basically your forgetting, or don't know, that the hit dice requirement here is restricted to racial hit dice not class hit dice.

P.S. Also note that to get all these abilities for a mere +1 LA, and 12 levels in any class would be grossly over powered.

Another example most people forget.

Were Tiger gets a LA of 2 or 3, but also gets 6 racial hit dice. So to play this monster race you will need to be a level 8 or 9 character (depending on if your born or inflicted), not a level 3 or 4 character.
EjoThims
04-18-08, 06:24 PM Now... Maybe I'm just missing the obvious...

But why would anyone take this over +1 LA and actual class levels?

What you've done here is, essentially, change a +1 stand alone LA into a 12 ECL with 0 LA.

This is, entirely, an inferior option, especially in campaigns with LA buyoff, and especially when that LA already scales with other HD you get.

To put it another way... Why would anyone be 12 Feral/8 X when they could simply be 19 X + 1 Feral??
zeratulcraft
04-18-08, 09:13 PM Because Feral grants abilities based on Racial HD, which this class grants, not Class HD, which everything else grants. At least thats what I get from the post above yours.
EjoThims
04-18-08, 09:25 PM Because Feral grants abilities based on Racial HD

"A feral creature gains additional special qualities depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below..."

No mention of being restricted to racial hit dice at all, and last I checked, class levels give hit dice that count for totals such as spells, so I see no reason that they wouldn't for this.

Same with Half-Fiend and similar templates. The abilities they grant scales as your character gains hit dice, no matter their source.
ToastedAmphibian
04-18-08, 09:35 PM Were Tiger gets a LA of 2 or 3, but also gets 6 racial hit dice. So to play this monster race you will need to be a level 8 or 9 character (depending on if your born or inflicted), not a level 3 or 4 character.
9 or 10, not 8 or 9. Even for a natural lycanthrope, your animal HD can never be your first level, so you need atleast 1 racial HD or a class level before you were critter dice can be added.
zeratulcraft
04-18-08, 09:41 PM "A feral creature gains additional special qualities depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below..."

No mention of being restricted to racial hit dice at all, and last I checked, class levels give hit dice that count for totals such as spells, so I see no reason that they wouldn't for this.

Same with Half-Fiend and similar templates. The abilities they grant scales as your character gains hit dice, no matter their source.

Ah, well I didn't actually look at the template, just what was said a few posts up about it.
Jaxgaret
04-19-08, 01:18 AM "A feral creature gains additional special qualities depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below..."

No mention of being restricted to racial hit dice at all, and last I checked, class levels give hit dice that count for totals such as spells, so I see no reason that they wouldn't for this.

In the Special Attacks section, it states that "It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows". It is clear that the designer intended for it to work off of racial HD only. That is directly after it states "A feral creature gains additional attacks depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below.", which is mimiced exactly in the Special Qualities section; thus it is possible that they intended the Special Qualities to be based off of Racial HD as well. Regardless, they do not gain the Special Attacks from class level HD advancement.
EjoThims
04-19-08, 06:14 AM In the Special Attacks section, it states that "It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows". It is clear that the designer intended for it to work off of racial HD only. That is directly after it states "A feral creature gains additional attacks depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below.", which is mimiced exactly in the Special Qualities section; thus it is possible that they intended the Special Qualities to be based off of Racial HD as well. Regardless, they do not gain the Special Attacks from class level HD advancement.

Huh, silly me to think it would follow precedent (in other templates and itself, no less) and go by the earlier statement in it's own entry and the table, which lists solely 'Hit Dice' once more.

:rolleyes:

Anyway, if you do play it that way, the Savage Progression for 12 HD + 1 LA would be 13 ECL regardless, as shown by every single Savage Progression listed.
Spikes01k
04-21-08, 08:59 AM Huh, silly me to think it would follow precedent (in other templates and itself, no less) and go by the earlier statement in it's own entry and the table, which lists solely 'Hit Dice' once more.

:rolleyes:

Anyway, if you do play it that way, the Savage Progression for 12 HD + 1 LA would be 13 ECL regardless, as shown by every single Savage Progression listed.

I spread it out to make it weaker than monster of the same HD till level 12. This should effectively, in my opinion, buy off the +1LA.

P.S. This is what a one with a LA +1 would more look like.

First all the modifiers from a +1 LA in the book not associated with HD.

Level Progression:
1 Darkvision 60ft
2 Improved Grab
3 Fast Healing 2
4
5
6 Pounce
7 Fast Healing: 3
8 Darkvision 90ft
9
10 Rake
11 Fast Healing 4
12 Fast Healing: 5, Darkvision 120ft, Rend
Spikes01k
04-21-08, 09:36 AM 9 or 10, not 8 or 9. Even for a natural lycanthrope, your animal HD can never be your first level, so you need atleast 1 racial HD or a class level before you were critter dice can be added.

That is a matter of opinion really. Your racial hit dice could be called levels into the animal class, just like levels into humanoid.
ToastedAmphibian
04-21-08, 09:14 PM That is a matter of opinion really. Your racial hit dice could be called levels into the animal class, just like levels into humanoid.

Exscuse me? Did you just call me a liar for no apparant reason? Perhapes im just cranky today, and im missing your point. Ill assume that is it. Anyways, you have to have some class level or racial HD before you add your animal HD from lycanthropy. This is acording to the SRD entry for Lycanthropy, NOT my opinion. Here is the quote if you wish it.
Skills: A lycanthrope gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of its animal form, as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. (Animal is never its first Hit Die, though, and it does not gain quadruple skill points for any animal Hit Die.) Any skill given in the animal’s description is a class skill for the lycanthrope’s animal levels. In any form, a lycanthrope also has any racial skill bonuses of the base creature and of the base animal, although conditional skill bonuses only apply in the associated form.

So, minimum ECL of a were tiger
1hd from class level or race
6hd of animal
+2 or +3 LA
= ECL 9-10

You may not drop your humanoid HD in favor of an animal HD. That would make your animal HD your first level, which is specifically prohibited as quoted above.
Spikes01k
04-21-08, 11:21 PM Exscuse me? Did you just call me a liar for no apparant reason? Perhapes im just cranky today, and im missing your point. Ill assume that is it. Anyways, you have to have some class level or racial HD before you add your animal HD from lycanthropy. This is acording to the SRD entry for Lycanthropy, NOT my opinion. Here is the quote if you wish it.

So, minimum ECL of a were tiger
1hd from class level or race
6hd of animal
+2 or +3 LA
= ECL 9-10

You may not drop your humanoid HD in favor of an animal HD. That would make your animal HD your first level, which is specifically prohibited as quoted above.

Ummm... I didn't mean any disrespect. Its just I was mistaken. Sorry.
Spikes01k
05-06-08, 09:43 PM Thanks everyone for the help. Think this goose is cooked.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spikes01k 04-04-08, 11:59 PM	Feral Template Progression Class Requirements: Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid type only Advancement: Please note this is a savage progression, not a class. You MUST take this at first level or take the ritual to change your race to progress mid game. In ether case you must complete the entire progression class until the character has completed 11 of the 12 levels. However, you may stop before level 11, but this entails a +1 level adjustment; but you obtain all the normal bonuses for taking the template with the LA +1. After level 11 you can start taking levels into class levels and can come back at a later level and take the last level in the feral progression with no minuses. Creature Type: Changes to Monstrous Humanoid Hit Die: D10 Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: Natural and simple weapons. No armor or shields. Skills: (2+int)x4, 2+int Class Skills (Stat modifier): Climb (Str), Jump (Str), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str). Base Attack Bonus: Full Fort Saves: Good Reflex Saves: Good Will Saves: Poor Stat modifiers: +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis (should be balanced) Level Progression: 1 Darkvision 30ft, Claws 1D3 2 Improved Grab, +5ft land speed, Natural Armor +1 3 Fast Healing 1 4 Darkvision 60ft, Claws 1D4, +5ft land speed, Natural Armor +1 5 Pounce 6 Fast Healing: 2, Natural Armor +1 7 Darkvision: 90ft, Claws 1D6 8 Rake, +2 Str, Natural Armor +1 9 Fast Healing: 3 10 Darkvision: 120ft, Claws 1D8, Natural Armor +1 11 Rend 12 Fast Healing: 5, Natural Armor +1 ______________________________ Basically I combined the monstrous humanoid class with the feral creature template. I added a few skills, but please tell me what you think. Also I did eliminate the +1 LA by this build. This is reasonably balanced due to the fact that till you reach about 12th level in the template you are collectively weaker than a creature of the same hit die/level.
Jaxgaret 04-05-08, 01:55 AM	That's a pretty interesting idea. At first glance, it seems overpowered. But it's really not, when compared to something like a Warblade or an optimized Fighter. It seems fine to me, or perhaps a bit too powerful. Also, you should spread out the NA progression, instead of giving it in chunks of +3. Perhaps give +1 every other level until you reach the max. Do the same thing with Fast Healing; start it off with Fast Healing 1, and add 1 to the Fast Healing every other level. I would suggest doing that for most of their abilities, actually. Maybe something like this: 1 Darkvision 30ft, Claws 1D3, -4 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Str, -2 Dex 2 Natural Armor +1, Fast Healing 1, +10' land speed 3 Improved Grab, Claws 1D4 4 Darkvision 60ft, Natural Armor +2, Fast Healing 2 5 Pounce, Claws 1d6 6 Natural Armor +3, Fast Healing 3 7 +2 Str, +2 Con, Claws 1d8 8 Darkvision 90ft, Natural Armor +4, Fast Healing 4 9 Rake, Claws 1d10 10 Natural Armor +5, Fast Healing 5 11 Darkvision 120ft, Claws 1d12 12 Rend, Natural Armor +6, Fast Healing 6 13 Powerful Build, Claws 2d6 14 Natural Armor +7, Fast Healing 7 And then you can flesh out the class with more abilities after level 14. Maybe even include an eventual increase to Large size.
Shadowhowler 04-05-08, 02:05 AM	Why is it poor Fort save and Good Ref and Will? I would think Poor Will and Good Ref and Fort would make more sense.
Jaxgaret 04-05-08, 02:17 AM	Why is it poor Fort save and Good Ref and Will? I would think Poor Will and Good Ref and Fort would make more sense. Monstrous Humanoids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType) get poor Fort and good Reflex/Will.
Spikes01k 04-05-08, 11:59 AM	Monstrous Humanoids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType) get poor Fort and good Reflex/Will. Yay!!! Some one knows their stuff!! ________________________________________ ______________ That's a pretty interesting idea. At first glance, it seems overpowered. But it's really not, when compared to something like a Warblade or an optimized Fighter. It seems fine to me, or perhaps a bit too powerful. Also, you should spread out the NA progression, instead of giving it in chunks of +3. Perhaps give +1 every other level until you reach the max. Do the same thing with Fast Healing; start it off with Fast Healing 1, and add 1 to the Fast Healing every other level. I would suggest doing that for most of their abilities, actually. Maybe something like this: 1 Darkvision 30ft, Claws 1D3, -4 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Str, -2 Dex 2 Natural Armor +1, Fast Healing 1, +10' land speed 3 Improved Grab, Claws 1D4 4 Darkvision 60ft, Natural Armor +2, Fast Healing 2 5 Pounce, Claws 1d6 6 Natural Armor +3, Fast Healing 3 7 +2 Str, +2 Con, Claws 1d8 8 Darkvision 90ft, Natural Armor +4, Fast Healing 4 9 Rake, Claws 1d10 10 Natural Armor +5, Fast Healing 5 11 Darkvision 120ft, Claws 1d12 12 Rend, Natural Armor +6, Fast Healing 6 13 Powerful Build, Claws 2d6 14 Natural Armor +7, Fast Healing 7 And then you can flesh out the class with more abilities after level 14. Maybe even include an eventual increase to Large size. Thanks, I missed the +2 to con. I really wanted to pack everything they got in the 1st hit die into the first 3 levels, sense that would be more to par with the template. However if I need to spreed it out more to eliminate the LA, then I might do that. Maybe something like this? Stat modifiers: +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis (should be balanced) 1 Darkvision 60ft, Claws 1D6, Natural Armor +2 2 Natural Armor +2, Fast Healing 1, +10' land speed 3 Improved Grab, Claws 1D8, Natural Armor +2, +2 Str 4 5 Fast Healing: 3 6 Pounce 7 Darkvision: 90ft 8 Fast Healing: 4 9 Rake 10 Darkvision: 120ft 11 Fast Healing: 5 12 Rend _______________________ As you can see I had a formula where there was, 1: darvision, 2: fast healing, then 3: special ability; least to best, to try and keep it balanced.
G_Mancer 04-05-08, 03:24 PM	At first i thought: "ugh, this is gonna suck", but great job. i would TOtally play this. each level he gets more freakish lookin and insanely stronger. it's aa much better option than war hulk.
Spikes01k 04-05-08, 05:47 PM	At first i thought: "ugh, this is gonna suck", but great job. i would TOtally play this. each level he gets more freakish lookin and insanely stronger. it's aa much better option than war hulk. I just updated it. I am not sure if this is too powerful though...
HernetheHunter 04-05-08, 10:09 PM	HD should be an 8.
Spikes01k 04-05-08, 10:15 PM	HD should be an 8. Are you talking balance? Because the feral template makes it a D10
Spikes01k 04-05-08, 11:02 PM	Just having fun. Thinking about a more spread out progression. 1 Darkvision 30ft, Claws 1D3, Natural Armor +1 2 Fast Healing 1, +5ft land speed 3 Improved Grab, Claws 1D4, Natural Armor +1 4 Darkvision 60ft, +2 Str, +5ft land speed 5 Fast Healing: 3, Claws 1D6, Natural Armor +1 6 Pounce 7 Darkvision: 90ft, Claws 1D8, Natural Armor +1 8 Fast Healing: 4 9 Rake, Natural Armor +1 10 Darkvision: 120ft 11 Fast Healing: 5, Natural Armor +1 12 Rend Although I personally don't like this, due to it is actually WAY weaker than a normal creature with the template, it is actually much more balanced per level.
Jaxgaret 04-05-08, 11:12 PM	Losing HD to a template with LA really hurts. This savage progression doesn't have to deal with that loss.
Spikes01k 04-05-08, 11:23 PM	Losing HD to a template with LA really hurts. This savage progression doesn't have to deal with that loss. Hmmm I was hoping that doing it this way would eliminate the +1 LA. Would you think not, still too powerful?
Jaxgaret 04-06-08, 12:32 AM	Hmmm I was hoping that doing it this way would eliminate the +1 LA. Would you think not, still too powerful? Well that's why I suggested you spread the abilities out over the levels, instead of stacking them all in the first 3.
Spikes01k 04-06-08, 12:38 AM	Well that's why I suggested you spread the abilities out over the levels, instead of stacking them all in the first 3. Good point. Changing table. P.S. Just a side note, my dream character with this is a dragon born gray elf with the dark creature template. I think that would be really cool to play.
Shadowhowler 04-06-08, 12:34 PM	Monstrous Humanoids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType) get poor Fort and good Reflex/Will. Hm. Just seems odd to me... the way the Feral Creature is laid out it screams "Tough as nails"... a good Fort save would make a hell of a lot more sense with it then a good will save.
Spikes01k 04-07-08, 12:31 AM	Hm. Just seems odd to me... the way the Feral Creature is laid out it screams "Tough as nails"... a good Fort save would make a hell of a lot more sense with it then a good will save. I have been talking to my gaming groups and you are correct. I will be changing it to good fort and ref. As well as spreading out the abilities differently.
Spikes01k 04-11-08, 06:18 PM	Just bumping to find out if anyone else had any opinions.
Drackthor 04-11-08, 11:50 PM	I never really got these things. So I get all these things for 1 LA or I dump 12 levels that I could've put into a real class instead? Seems kinda like giving up +1 LA for +12 LA
Spikes01k 04-11-08, 11:56 PM	I never really got these things. So I get all these things for 1 LA or I dump 12 levels that I could've put into a real class instead? Seems kinda like giving up +1 LA for +12 LA Sorry, but you can't get any of the abilities listed requiring racial hit die with out this progression or racial hit dice of your own. If you have racial hit die, you can take a +1 LA and go with what your hit dice allow, or you can take no LA and gain ALL the abilities by gaining racial hit dice via this progression. Basically your forgetting, or don't know, that the hit dice requirement here is restricted to racial hit dice not class hit dice. P.S. Also note that to get all these abilities for a mere +1 LA, and 12 levels in any class would be grossly over powered. Another example most people forget. Were Tiger gets a LA of 2 or 3, but also gets 6 racial hit dice. So to play this monster race you will need to be a level 8 or 9 character (depending on if your born or inflicted), not a level 3 or 4 character.
EjoThims 04-18-08, 06:24 PM	Now... Maybe I'm just missing the obvious... But why would anyone take this over +1 LA and actual class levels? What you've done here is, essentially, change a +1 stand alone LA into a 12 ECL with 0 LA. This is, entirely, an inferior option, especially in campaigns with LA buyoff, and especially when that LA already scales with other HD you get. To put it another way... Why would anyone be 12 Feral/8 X when they could simply be 19 X + 1 Feral??
zeratulcraft 04-18-08, 09:13 PM	Because Feral grants abilities based on Racial HD, which this class grants, not Class HD, which everything else grants. At least thats what I get from the post above yours.
EjoThims 04-18-08, 09:25 PM	Because Feral grants abilities based on Racial HD "A feral creature gains additional special qualities depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below..." No mention of being restricted to racial hit dice at all, and last I checked, class levels give hit dice that count for totals such as spells, so I see no reason that they wouldn't for this. Same with Half-Fiend and similar templates. The abilities they grant scales as your character gains hit dice, no matter their source.
ToastedAmphibian 04-18-08, 09:35 PM	Were Tiger gets a LA of 2 or 3, but also gets 6 racial hit dice. So to play this monster race you will need to be a level 8 or 9 character (depending on if your born or inflicted), not a level 3 or 4 character. 9 or 10, not 8 or 9. Even for a natural lycanthrope, your animal HD can never be your first level, so you need atleast 1 racial HD or a class level before you were critter dice can be added.
zeratulcraft 04-18-08, 09:41 PM	"A feral creature gains additional special qualities depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below..." No mention of being restricted to racial hit dice at all, and last I checked, class levels give hit dice that count for totals such as spells, so I see no reason that they wouldn't for this. Same with Half-Fiend and similar templates. The abilities they grant scales as your character gains hit dice, no matter their source. Ah, well I didn't actually look at the template, just what was said a few posts up about it.
Jaxgaret 04-19-08, 01:18 AM	"A feral creature gains additional special qualities depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below..." No mention of being restricted to racial hit dice at all, and last I checked, class levels give hit dice that count for totals such as spells, so I see no reason that they wouldn't for this. In the Special Attacks section, it states that "It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows". It is clear that the designer intended for it to work off of racial HD only. That is directly after it states "A feral creature gains additional attacks depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below.", which is mimiced exactly in the Special Qualities section; thus it is possible that they intended the Special Qualities to be based off of Racial HD as well. Regardless, they do not gain the Special Attacks from class level HD advancement.
EjoThims 04-19-08, 06:14 AM	In the Special Attacks section, it states that "It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows". It is clear that the designer intended for it to work off of racial HD only. That is directly after it states "A feral creature gains additional attacks depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below.", which is mimiced exactly in the Special Qualities section; thus it is possible that they intended the Special Qualities to be based off of Racial HD as well. Regardless, they do not gain the Special Attacks from class level HD advancement. Huh, silly me to think it would follow precedent (in other templates and itself, no less) and go by the earlier statement in it's own entry and the table, which lists solely 'Hit Dice' once more. :rolleyes: Anyway, if you do play it that way, the Savage Progression for 12 HD + 1 LA would be 13 ECL regardless, as shown by every single Savage Progression listed.
Spikes01k 04-21-08, 08:59 AM	Huh, silly me to think it would follow precedent (in other templates and itself, no less) and go by the earlier statement in it's own entry and the table, which lists solely 'Hit Dice' once more. :rolleyes: Anyway, if you do play it that way, the Savage Progression for 12 HD + 1 LA would be 13 ECL regardless, as shown by every single Savage Progression listed. I spread it out to make it weaker than monster of the same HD till level 12. This should effectively, in my opinion, buy off the +1LA. P.S. This is what a one with a LA +1 would more look like. First all the modifiers from a +1 LA in the book not associated with HD. Level Progression: 1 Darkvision 60ft 2 Improved Grab 3 Fast Healing 2 4 5 6 Pounce 7 Fast Healing: 3 8 Darkvision 90ft 9 10 Rake 11 Fast Healing 4 12 Fast Healing: 5, Darkvision 120ft, Rend
Spikes01k 04-21-08, 09:36 AM	9 or 10, not 8 or 9. Even for a natural lycanthrope, your animal HD can never be your first level, so you need atleast 1 racial HD or a class level before you were critter dice can be added. That is a matter of opinion really. Your racial hit dice could be called levels into the animal class, just like levels into humanoid.
ToastedAmphibian 04-21-08, 09:14 PM	That is a matter of opinion really. Your racial hit dice could be called levels into the animal class, just like levels into humanoid. Exscuse me? Did you just call me a liar for no apparant reason? Perhapes im just cranky today, and im missing your point. Ill assume that is it. Anyways, you have to have some class level or racial HD before you add your animal HD from lycanthropy. This is acording to the SRD entry for Lycanthropy, NOT my opinion. Here is the quote if you wish it. Skills: A lycanthrope gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of its animal form, as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. (Animal is never its first Hit Die, though, and it does not gain quadruple skill points for any animal Hit Die.) Any skill given in the animal’s description is a class skill for the lycanthrope’s animal levels. In any form, a lycanthrope also has any racial skill bonuses of the base creature and of the base animal, although conditional skill bonuses only apply in the associated form. So, minimum ECL of a were tiger 1hd from class level or race 6hd of animal +2 or +3 LA = ECL 9-10 You may not drop your humanoid HD in favor of an animal HD. That would make your animal HD your first level, which is specifically prohibited as quoted above.
Spikes01k 04-21-08, 11:21 PM	Exscuse me? Did you just call me a liar for no apparant reason? Perhapes im just cranky today, and im missing your point. Ill assume that is it. Anyways, you have to have some class level or racial HD before you add your animal HD from lycanthropy. This is acording to the SRD entry for Lycanthropy, NOT my opinion. Here is the quote if you wish it. So, minimum ECL of a were tiger 1hd from class level or race 6hd of animal +2 or +3 LA = ECL 9-10 You may not drop your humanoid HD in favor of an animal HD. That would make your animal HD your first level, which is specifically prohibited as quoted above. Ummm... I didn't mean any disrespect. Its just I was mistaken. Sorry.
Spikes01k 05-06-08, 09:43 PM	Thanks everyone for the help. Think this goose is cooked.