Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrStalker 06-28-07, 06:08 AM	As I start to look through additional (i.e.: non core) books I've come across a few things that looked a bit overpowered, but the Feral template (Savage Species) seems to jump out as one with a hideously inappropriate LA. Key features: Fast Healing (scaling with class levels) Claws (doing more damage than usual for a given size), speed boost, a big natural armor boost and a bunch of free feats along with excellent bonus stats (the downside being -4 int) All for LA1. Is this typical of things found in the various expansion books, or is Feral just severely under priced? Are there other templates with similar pricing discrepancies?
Sleepwalker13666 06-28-07, 06:14 AM	A couple of things to keep in mind with feral, first all abilities are given at character creation, they do not go up as the character levels, also almost all abilities are based on hit dice, not levels, meaning without any racial hit dice, feral is a more of a waste than a boon.
Sunic_Flames 06-28-07, 06:53 AM	Here's the neat thing about LAs and anything else that boosts ECL/CR. Supposedly, +2 means double power, so +1 would be half that. Of course an LA 1 that made you 50% better would be even stronger than feral so in practice this isn't followed. The feral template does come closer than certain others though. :P
Regwon 06-28-07, 07:02 AM	A couple of things to keep in mind with feral, first all abilities are given at character creation, they do not go up as the character levels, also almost all abilities are based on hit dice, not levels, meaning without any racial hit dice, feral is a more of a waste than a boon. As a character gain levels they also gain HD. I dont have SS with me so i cant check the feral template, but if abilities scale with HD then HD gained from class levels would also be taken into account unless the template specifically says otherwise, which is unsusal.
cato 06-28-07, 07:35 AM	anthropomorphic bat seems more powerful to me at +0 LA :p
bobothechimp 06-28-07, 07:37 AM	I don't know, anthropomorphic baleen whale is pretty nice at +0 LA. 3 racial hit dice isn't that bad.
Omega_Grey 06-28-07, 08:56 AM	Usually (but not always) hit dice on templates refers to racial hit dice, and I think that feral is one of those. You have to be careful with Savage Species, since it was written during that time of change between 3rd and 3.5, and the wording of books from then (as far as I know, that includes SS and Races of Faerun) are kind of lax when it comes to clarification. For instance, if we took to assuming that all mention of hit dice in the feral template included class hit dice, then we would have to change all class hit dice to d10's. Whats that mister sorcerer, yes you get a d10. Ranger? Yes you too. Rogue? You bet your buttons. Fighter? Yup, doesnt change you much though does it? Barbarian? Sorry buddy, you actually get a cut in hit dice... See? Its kind of silly to assume that they meant class hit dice. But if thats how you want to do it in your campaign thats cool, you might want to bump it up to a +2 level adjustment though, because it does get a little crazy at high levels. (Side note, add feral to a kobold or a goblin, add in some spices, let sit for ten minutes and serve warm to a group of level 2 PC's and enjoy.)
Sleepwalker13666 06-28-07, 12:51 PM	As a character gain levels they also gain HD. I dont have SS with me so i cant check the feral template, but if abilities scale with HD then HD gained from class levels would also be taken into account unless the template specifically says otherwise, which is unsusal. True, but Feral was meant to be racial hit dice, not dice from class levels, I remember reading about that in the sage advice of a dragon magazine.
archerpwr 06-28-07, 01:06 PM	The ruling on feral as I know it is that if and only if you have no racial hit dice the abilities are calculated by class level. If you have even two racial hit dice, then you are stuck with calculating those 2 hit dice and have to take more racial hit dice to get more benefit. Feral is an incredible buy for a +1 though.
Lawlicron 06-28-07, 01:27 PM	True, but Feral was meant to be racial hit dice, not dice from class levels, I remember reading about that in the sage advice of a dragon magazine. /cry
danzibr 06-28-07, 03:12 PM	Mineral Warrior. Now that's overpowered. Dan
lint trap 06-28-07, 03:19 PM	Feral, Mineral Warrior, Saint, and Shadow Creature are the big four I can think of.
archerpwr 06-28-07, 03:20 PM	Feral, Mineral Warrior, Saint, and Shadow Creature are the big four I can think of. Lolth touched is pretty underpriced too. I was unaware that shadow creature was underpriced. You can get the template with an item.
lint trap 06-28-07, 03:23 PM	I was unaware that shadow creature was underpriced. Plenty of folks don't think so, but after the games I've seen I'd have to disagree. Between the fast healing and the total concealment, those fellas are mighty tough to kill.
archerpwr 06-28-07, 03:29 PM	Plenty of folks don't think so, but after the games I've seen I'd have to disagree. Between the fast healing and the total concealment, those fellas are mighty tough to kill. Fair enough. I've never seen it in action.
AMGriffin 06-28-07, 06:32 PM	Lolth touched is pretty underpriced too. I was unaware that shadow creature was underpriced. You can get the template with an item. The Lolth touched was most likely intended for Drow only, and when applied to drow only the template works fine. Otherwise you're going to have people cheesing out with their LA+1 Lolth touched Orc with +10 Strength and +6 Constitution.
Sleepwalker13666 06-28-07, 09:21 PM	Fair enough. I've never seen it in action. I played a whisper gnome with that template nasty.
d24478667 06-28-07, 09:23 PM	What books are the other three in? I have SS. I don't want to be an overpowered munchkin. I want to know what they do so that as a DM I can challenge my players.
Sleepwalker13666 06-28-07, 09:28 PM	Lords of madness has the shadow creature template IIRC.
d24478667 06-28-07, 09:34 PM	Found saint in BoED. So far I have those three; could have sworn I saw Mineral Warrior, so I just need the book for that. Edit: Found it. Underdark, for those who don't know.
Lord Otaku 06-28-07, 10:14 PM	What would you recomend for the proper LA for Feral?
Sleepwalker13666 06-28-07, 10:18 PM	What would you recomend for the proper LA for Feral? If you decide to use as written with the dragon magazine clairification, it's fine at 1, but if you use it as written +3 would probably be more appropriate, +1 unbalanced stats, +1 fast healing and natural armor, +1 combat abilities (rake, imp grab etc).
Poison_Dusk 06-29-07, 03:39 AM	Don't forget the hotly debated Half-Minotaur from Dragon Magazine.
Lord Otaku 06-29-07, 10:24 AM	What are it's stats? Or. at least, wich mag is it in?
ravenshrike 06-29-07, 11:48 AM	I played a whisper gnome with that template nasty. Sneaky whisper gnomes w/o that template are nasty. A +8 to hide bonus? Combine that with darkstalker and any sort of concealment, and you can pretty much hide from any creature CR appropriate.
Radijs 06-29-07, 01:47 PM	Dark template doesn't really need any form of concealment since it gives the Hide in Plain Sight ability when the character isn't in direct sunlight.
archerpwr 06-29-07, 01:53 PM	The Lolth touched was most likely intended for Drow only, and when applied to drow only the template works fine. Otherwise you're going to have people cheesing out with their LA+1 Lolth touched Orc with +10 Strength and +6 Constitution. Are you implying that lolth is so racist that she won't touch anyone else? Blasphemy! Drow are underpowered enough that you need feral and lolth touched to make the LA balance somewhat.
Sleepwalker13666 06-29-07, 03:33 PM	Are you implying that lolth is so racist that she won't touch anyone else? Blasphemy! Drow are underpowered enough that you need feral and lolth touched to make the LA balance somewhat. While it wasn't intended drow only (the examples in the book are evidence enough) it would have to be one in loths favor.
zae 06-29-07, 08:07 PM	Plenty of folks don't think so, but after the games I've seen I'd have to disagree. Between the fast healing and the total concealment, those fellas are mighty tough to kill. The problem with that is that, after the games I've seen, humans and dwarfs are underpriced. Saint could do with a higher LA (or perhaps "Let's forget BoED exists!") but Feral... at lower levels, it's sort of a wash. At higher levels, it means your fighter is more powerful than a fighter without it, but you're still falling behind the big casters, just not as much. So it sort of helps ADD balance at the higher levels. If it cost more than 1 level, I'd consider it a waste and not take it. *shrug* Shadow creature is good, but I wouldn't increase the LA without first seeing it cause chaos in a game. Haven't seen it used yet, so I'll give the first player the benefit of the doubt. Unless they apply it to a race I don't like. Prejudiced? You bet. I can't be bothered looking up the Mineral Warrior or Lolth touched, but they basically fit into the same category as shadow creature.
koiulpoi 06-29-07, 11:06 PM	It says in the BoED right in the Saint section that it has an artificially low LA. That's because of the requirements, one of which is a roleplaying one of some kind of massive sacrifice. You've really gotta do good or be really good at smoothtalking the DM to get the template. So, yeah, if you wanted it as-is without the RP requirements (and the 3 exalted feats, etc) then it deserves more LA than it has. Mineral Warrior is from Underdark and This Page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) as well. I think DR 8/adamantine and +3 NA (along with the other things they get) might be a bit more than +1.
Doklahar 06-29-07, 11:18 PM	I once played a Dark (ToM) Whisper Gnome Shadowcaster 5 with dex of 20, total Hide modifier was +29 and a move silently of +22. Also had hide in plain sight and Umbral Touch, being able to stab somebody in the back and remain unsean (-20 Hide check) was fun. Expesially when maximised for 30 points of damage per strike.
zook1shoe666 06-30-07, 01:27 AM	i agree with the Feral template being powerful for a +1 LA, but like zae said... it just lets the high level fighter-type characters compete slightly with the casters. are you talking about the Shadow template from the Manuel of the Planes or the crappy one from the Lords of Madness? in the Ghostwalk book, you can gain the Vampire template from eating a chunk of rotten meat that costs a whole 6000gp, how broken is that?
koiulpoi 06-30-07, 01:59 AM	i agree with the Feral template being powerful for a +1 LA, but like zae said... it just lets the high level fighter-type characters compete slightly with the casters. are you talking about the Shadow template from the Manuel of the Planes or the crappy one from the Lords of Madness? in the Ghostwalk book, you can gain the Vampire template from eating a chunk of rotten meat that costs a whole 6000gp, how broken is that? It still costs you 8 levels though. That's gotta suck.
Sleepwalker13666 06-30-07, 06:12 AM	Just saw the mineral warrior, yeesh, screw ever playing a Fey Ri again.
Razieliffied 06-30-07, 07:32 AM	I've alway's found White Dragonspawn, from the Dragonlance setting, to be remarkably powerfull myself. Between the huge natural armor bonus, the slight boost to racial stats, the fly speed, the breath weapon and the +1 caster level, their a +1 LA template. Perfect for making that party sorcerer far stronger, as it gives you a caster level alongside everything else.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-30-07, 08:50 AM	One thing to keep in mind with the mineral warrior is that the same (essentially) setting book brings in a lot of spells which are more dangerous to the mineral warrior than to the average PC, and these spells are presumed to be reasonably common in that environment. Likewise, adamantine weaponry is (at least thematically) presumed to be fairly commonplace, which cuts down the benefit of the DR. If you take it outside of that environment then it grows stronger, although the problem there is that at +2 LA it probably wouldn't be worth taking anymore, especially since its qualities are fairly easily outdone by higher class levels.
Lord Otaku 06-30-07, 09:18 AM	I've alway's found White Dragonspawn, from the Dragonlance setting, to be remarkably powerfull myself. Which book are they in?
Sylian 06-30-07, 09:39 AM	Dragonlance Campaign Setting. But are hard to roleplay.
Lord Otaku 06-30-07, 12:02 PM	Dragonlance Campaign Setting. But are hard to roleplay. Thank you. I’m actually thinking of taking the Feral Template, but I want to make sure it is balanced. I want my DM to trust me. I have no where near the experience that you gentlemen have displayed, but I see two schools of thought regarding the Template. One feels it is unbalanced, and needs a higher LA, and other feels it works because of the need for level progression. What do you gentlemen (and ladies) feel I should do? I can’t afford an LA above +1.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-30-07, 12:05 PM	Are you just looking for any old template, or are you trying to create a specific theme, and if so, what? There are probably other alternatives which won't create as many issues.
koiulpoi 06-30-07, 12:55 PM	Thank you. I’m actually thinking of taking the Feral Template, but I want to make sure it is balanced. I want my DM to trust me. I have no where near the experience that you gentlemen have displayed, but I see two schools of thought regarding the Template. One feels it is unbalanced, and needs a higher LA, and other feels it works because of the need for level progression. What do you gentlemen (and ladies) feel I should do? I can’t afford an LA above +1. It's a perfectly fine template at +1 (IMHO) if you don't let the abilities advance with class levels.
danielinthewolvesden 06-30-07, 04:36 PM	As I start to look through additional (i.e.: non core) books I've come across a few things that looked a bit overpowered, but the Feral template (Savage Species) seems to jump out as one with a hideously inappropriate LA. Key features: Fast Healing (scaling with class levels) Claws (doing more damage than usual for a given size), speed boost, a big natural armor boost and a bunch of free feats along with excellent bonus stats (the downside being -4 int) All for LA1. Is this typical of things found in the various expansion books, or is Feral just severely under priced? Are there other templates with similar pricing discrepancies? It's 3.25, and the book apparently was neither play-tested or checked for balance. By 3.25, I mean that the Book (Savage Species) is really a 3.0 book, but they wrote it while 3.5 was being playested so it supposedly is compatable. It ain't. It is not typical at all.
Sleepwalker13666 06-30-07, 04:47 PM	Yeah the 3.0-3.5 transition books are are a little complicated, and it takes a couple passovers to determine what it was supposed to be.
Lord Otaku 07-01-07, 09:06 AM	Are you just looking for any old template, or are you trying to create a specific theme, and if so, what? There are probably other alternatives which won't create as many issues. I wanted to add it to the Half-Ogre Race from WoW d20 (no LA penalty, instead uses three Racial Class Levels to even out the advantages) as part of a character concept. Basically, I wanted the Half-Ogre PC to be a “throw back,” a child who shows all the recessive traits from a long forgotten Ogre ancestor, which is sold off as gladiator fodder out of shame. She survives and escapes to become an independent warrior. I like the idea of her having the Feral Template to emphasize this, and to add some emphasis to her struggle with a primitive nature. Originally I was eyeing the Half-Fiend Template, and was planning on using that with the WoW d20 Half-Ogre Race, with its name filed off, to show a decedent of a Large demon. But it has too many issues with the LA. (Though I’ve been debating removing the Ability Mods, Spell-Like Abilities, and downgrading its Special Qualities. Not sure. The Ogre thing sounds more fun, though.) With regards to the Feral Template, I don’t think I need the Ability stats, so I might just chop them off for my request to my DM. I like the improving attack abilities for a tank, though I wish they had a Bite attack as well as Claws. The Regeneration would balance the lack of Hit Dice due to LA penalty. Would any other Templates work better? Or is tweaking possible?
Neutronium_Dragon 07-01-07, 11:25 AM	I don't know the WoW half-ogre stats, so it's difficult to gauge what would fit with it. If you don't mind spinning things in a bit of a different direction, the draconic template from Races of the Dragon gives some similar qualities (claws, stat boosts, etc) without being quite so lopsided as a +1 LA template. (It's basically a weaker and more visually subtle version of half-dragon.) WoW does have characters with draconic ancestry show up from time to time, so it's feasible in that setting, and it probably wouldn't be too hard to re-theme it to a non-draconic version. Beyond that, you might look at something like a racial paragon level, even if it's for the other half of the character's ancestry.
Lord Otaku 07-03-07, 11:13 AM	If you decide to use as written with the dragon magazine clairification, it's fine at 1, but if you use it as written +3 would probably be more appropriate, +1 unbalanced stats, +1 fast healing and natural armor, +1 combat abilities (rake, imp grab etc). What if I remove; the Unbalanced Stats, Natural Armor, Increased Speed, and keep the Fast Healing and Combat Abilities? Also, would there be any weaknesses you’d recommend? Such as Low-Light Vision?
Sleepwalker13666 07-05-07, 04:32 AM	What if I remove; the Unbalanced Stats, Natural Armor, Increased Speed, and keep the Fast Healing and Combat Abilities? Also, would there be any weaknesses you’d recommend? Such as Low-Light Vision? Since mephlings have fast healing and are only a lv adj of 1, I'd say a less feral, like you suggest, around a +1.
koiulpoi 07-05-07, 04:51 AM	Since mephlings have fast healing and are only a lv adj of 1, I'd say a less feral, like you suggest, around a +1. Mephlings don't have fast healing. It says they should in a sidebar, but nowhere in the stats for them does it say they do. However, for my games, I've houseruled away their breath weapon and given them fast healing 1.
Ieniemienie 07-05-07, 06:03 AM	The Half-Minotaur template from a Dungeon Magazine, is also very good: A size increase with all size modifiers included and other goodies
Grandmaster_Kane 07-05-07, 06:30 AM	Paragon, psuedonatural, pyhric are all MUCH worse than feral
koiulpoi 07-05-07, 04:51 PM	Paragon, psuedonatural, pyhric are all MUCH worse than feral I don't know about Pyhrric, but the other two are from the ELH and don't have a listed LA (as far as I know) and this cannot be used (at all) for players. :rolleyes: By Pyhrric did you mean Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm)? If so, that's really not that good of a template for +2 - compare it to Half-Fey, for instance.
Sunic_Flames 07-05-07, 04:53 PM	I don't know about Pyhrric, but the other two are from the ELH and don't have a listed LA (as far as I know) and this cannot be used (at all) for players. :rolleyes: Pretty sure paragon is between 10 and 15... which is kinda funny because demigod is only 4 to 6. :P
koiulpoi 07-05-07, 08:02 PM	Pretty sure paragon is between 10 and 15... which is kinda funny because demigod is only 4 to 6. :P Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) has no listed LA. And I don't know where you got that number for the demigod, either, as there's nothing like that in Divine Ranks and Powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) or Divine Minions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm).
Sleepwalker13666 07-05-07, 10:48 PM	Mephlings don't have fast healing. It says they should in a sidebar, but nowhere in the stats for them does it say they do. However, for my games, I've houseruled away their breath weapon and given them fast healing 1. I heard it got errated in, probably should have mentioned that.
koiulpoi 07-05-07, 11:25 PM	I heard it got errated in, probably should have mentioned that. If so, it must've been in Dragon or some other source, as it's not in the Planar Handbook errata.
Sleepwalker13666 07-06-07, 03:53 AM	If so, it must've been in Dragon or some other source, as it's not in the Planar Handbook errata. I think it was dragon, but I'm not sure, and since i can't quote my source, probably better to just ignore my mephling example. Well since mephs are out, the shadow creature gets fast healing and a large number of abilities as well, so if you can make a pseudo feral thats weaker than that you should have no issues getting the pseudo feral as a +1.
Ieniemienie 07-06-07, 07:14 AM	I think it was dragon, but I'm not sure, and since i can't quote my source, probably better to just ignore my mephling example. Well since mephs are out, the shadow creature gets fast healing and a large number of abilities as well, so if you can make a pseudo feral thats weaker than that you should have no issues getting the pseudo feral as a +1. the shadow template from the Crystalkeep template compendium has LA +3 and not really spectacular abilities... maybe there is a different shadow creature?
Roivas 07-06-07, 07:43 AM	So, yeah, if you wanted it as-is without the RP requirements (and the 3 exalted feats, etc) then it deserves more LA than it has. Strangely enough the example Saint in the book only has two exalted feats, meaning he didn't actually make the prerequisites either. But I think the feral template is a rather over used method for certain types of folk to attempt to supercharge their characters. Fast healing alone should be worth a LA of 1, since for a fighter type this means every fight you can go into it at full HP and the cleric can keep his better spells for combat too. I've banned the template completely from my games for both me and the players. Just don't trust it myself. The shadow template is a LA of 2 out of Lords of Madness and I think that is most appropriate.
Sunic_Flames 07-06-07, 07:43 AM	Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) has no listed LA. And I don't know where you got that number for the demigod, either, as there's nothing like that in Divine Ranks and Powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) or Divine Minions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm). It was posted somewhere on these forums actually.
Sleepwalker13666 07-06-07, 04:10 PM	the shadow template from the Crystalkeep template compendium has LA +3 and not really spectacular abilities... maybe there is a different shadow creature? I meant the one from lords of maddness, it's either a 1 or 2, dont have the book with me right now so I cant say for sure, but I believe it's only 1.
koiulpoi 07-06-07, 04:57 PM	I meant the one from lords of maddness, it's either a 1 or 2, dont have the book with me right now so I cant say for sure, but I believe it's only 1. I've got it - love that book. It's a 2. Their special abilities are based off of hit dice, and one of them's fast healing 2. Despite "shadow blend" (becoming essentially invisible in anything other than full daylight) seeming rather powerful, it seems to be pretty good for +2. I wouldn't throw it in the "broken" category quite yet, as its main ability is negated by a 3rd level spell. Losing 2 class levels is a pretty big hit to anyone.
SokenzanMarauder 07-06-07, 05:05 PM	*sigh* Wrong topic. Sorry folks. -Gene