Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serge_P 11-08-07, 01:30 PM	(Red: Edited) Älvfa (Sing.) Älvfor (Plur.) Fine, Fey (Note: This is racial stat modifiers!) Str -8 (Min Str 1) Dex +10 Con -8 (Min Con 1) Int +2 Wis -6 (Min Wis 1) Cha +4 Fey traits: (Low-light vision) Fly, perfect; (40ft), Ground (10ft) Fine size Force of personality bonus feat (C-Adv) DR 5/Cold Iron Greater invisibility (as pixie) -20 to Concentration skill checks. Alignment: Always Chaotic. Always. (Usually chaotic neutral, chaotic evil and chaotic stupid) Religion: None. (atheists). Ling: Sylvan: Bonus: Draconic, elf, halfling, gnome, Celestial/abyssal (Depends on alignment), giant. Favoured class: Any arcane caster. Appearance: Like small humans with a more heart-shaped head, smaller pointier chins, bigger eyes, pointy ears, butterfly-esque wings, Impossible to see on clothes and iconography if good or evil, look like coure eladrins and sylphs, but smaller. Red or black hair, pale or tanned skin. Sometimes blond and blue-skinned. Psychology: very curious, tricksters, non-religious. Very aesthetically with week moral concept of good and evil, disbelieves in that Iconography can be good or evil (They don't believe that everything in black armour with trophy-heads, skulls and horns are always evil and they don't believe that everything in white/gold with feathered wings and golden halos are always good). Very chaotic, and have short concentration span. Likes to annoy. Likes to know stuff, but hate studying, since it requires lots of concentration, often smart but unwise. Fashion: They like fashion, and most (Almost everyone) wears clothes with gems, fine couture and decore that looks noble. They don't associate any kind of clothes with an alignment on the Good-Evil axis, but they strongly believe that creatures in beautiful many-coloured fashionable clothes to be chaotic, and creatures in dull boring, especially grey, clothes to be lawful. They also hate the colour grey, but love red, gold and purple. Some typical dresses are Purple top, white jacket and black skirt/shorts. Others common colour combinations are purple/gold, Red/Gold, Blue/Silver, Green/Brass, Green/darker shade of gold, Bordeaux/Lighter shade of Blue, Pink/Black, Brown/Blue/Green/Black, Green/White/Brown/Black and Brown/Purple. La +3
Dog_O_War 11-08-07, 01:48 PM	This is D&D, not Ferngully. Also, a race cannot have a -10 anything, as this puts them into the category of dead. Also, I am will assume this is a joke. Haha. You've obtained one laugh. (Serge_P laugh score plus one!)
Serge_P 11-08-07, 02:21 PM	1: Those are not stats, those are racial stat modifiers!. 2: WTF is Ferngully?
Dog_O_War 11-08-07, 03:49 PM	1: races are modified from a base number of 10. a race with a -10 to 10 has a zero. A zero is idicative of dead. 2: the was a movie from the early 90's involving really small fey, about bug sized (fine). It had Robin Williams in it playing a crazy bat with wires sticking out of his head. This not only speaks of my incredible movie knowledge, but also of my vast lameness.
Xiuhcoatl 11-08-07, 06:20 PM	This is D&D, not Ferngully. Also, a race cannot have a -10 anything, as this puts them into the category of dead. Also, I am will assume this is a joke. Haha. You've obtained one laugh. (Serge_P laugh score plus one!) This is extremely rude. And it is completely uncalled for. This is D&D, not Dog_O_War's opinion of it. If he wants a Fine-sized fairy, he damn well can have a Fine-sized fairy. That said, you can't have odd modifiers. Make a -8 to Str, not a -9. The concentration checks penalty is confusing, and literally weakens this race to the point of uselessness. And as well, the abilities and ability modifiers are so out of wack that it really is unplayable as written.
Serge_P 11-09-07, 08:41 AM	The concentration checks penalty is confusing, and literally weakens this race to the point of uselessness. Well, their attention-span is shorter then their thumbs (And they have small thumbs, since they are Fine). They're just bad at concentrating too much. What should I change the racial penalty to? And most important, are they (With all their abilities) worth +3LA? (Not Worth as seen from an tactical/strategical/powergames point of view, but as seen from a lawful, fair and just point of view).
Dog_O_War 11-09-07, 10:51 AM	Please, Xiuhcoatl think before you comment. Originally posted by Xiuhcoatl This is extremely rude. And it is completely uncalled for. This is D&D, not Dog_O_War's opinion of it. If he wants a Fine-sized fairy, he damn well can have a Fine-sized fairy. That said, you can't have odd modifiers. Make a -8 to Str, not a -9. The concentration checks penalty is confusing, and literally weakens this race to the point of uselessness. And as well, the abilities and ability modifiers are so out of wack that it really is unplayable as written. I would like you to note, that this is a P.E.A.C.H. and is infact everyone's opinion of it. As a fine sized character, it'll have a +16 to hide checks, before stats (an average of 21 before even rolling). In what game is this fair at +3 LA? As for odd modifiers, he CAN have them as there is nothing within the game that says otherwise. As for the concentration check penalty; this character doesn't even need to worry as it has Greater Invisibility as (I am assuming here; it does not say otherwise) a spell-like ability useable at will. when you're invisible and fine-sized, no one tends to even know youre there, despite being backstabbed for 10d6 sneak attack. Also, as you can see this spell like ability only serves to further make this race "more equal" to an LA +3. Also, incase you haven't noticed; the full caster progression (no matter what the class it actually takes) in two (count 'em two) full casting classes! If he were a fighting type with a high hit dice.... well hopefully you can see where I'm going with this thought. Also, the flying; did you notice the fly speed of 40ft (prefect)? While I'm not against flying PC's, I'm against perfect flying - invisible - cast any spell that you'd like - and the enemy can't resist it because of a huge stat mod - PC. This guy (you, OP) has been on the boards longer than I have. That should've instilled atleast a little bit of what is and is not balanced. I'm sorry OP if this was not a joke, but as written I thought it was. As the race is though, fine PC's just aren't balanced; they get too much dex and hide, and in a system where the minimum damage is one and size doesn't affect spells or (most) special abilities, this race is far too broken for anyone to play.
Xiuhcoatl 11-09-07, 04:07 PM	Please, Xiuhcoatl think before you comment. Your rudeness is noted. Also note that this is baiting, which is also against the CoC. I would like you to note, that this is a P.E.A.C.H. and is infact everyone's opinion of it. I would like you to note, that this is a P.E.A.C.H. and your rudeness is not, in fact, everyone's opinion of it. In fact, you and I are the only two to have commented -- this does not mean no one likes it, it means simply that no one has commented -- and thus your statement is invalid. As a fine sized character, it'll have a +16 to hide checks, before stats (an average of 21 before even rolling). In what game is this fair at +3 LA? In a game where Blindsense is prevalent ... which it is if LA +3 creatures are allowed. As for odd modifiers, he CAN have them as there is nothing within the game that says otherwise. Please find me one example in the official books where a race gains an odd modifer. Even in the conventions for making Monsters as Races, it states that you must take -10 from the score if it is even, and -11 from the score if it is odd -- which, as you should notice, always makes it an even ability modifier. Also, incase you haven't noticed; the full caster progression (no matter what the class it actually takes) in two (count 'em two) full casting classes! If he were a fighting type with a high hit dice.... well hopefully you can see where I'm going with this thought. This is the breaking factor. He should do away with that. Also, the flying; did you notice the fly speed of 40ft (prefect)? While I'm not against flying PC's, I'm against perfect flying - invisible - cast any spell that you'd like - and the enemy can't resist it because of a huge stat mod - PC. The flight is the least of his concerns. Look at the Pixie, really.
Dog_O_War 11-09-07, 04:45 PM	It may not be a race, but it is an official source. Monster Manual II had the war beast template with creatures gaining odd modifiers to ability scores. I would like to point out that if this is baiting; Originally Posted by Dog_O_War Please, Xiuhcoatl think before you comment. Then so is this; Originally Posted by Xiuhcoatl This is D&D, not Dog_O_War's opinion of it. If he wants a Fine-sized fairy, he damn well can have a Fine-sized fairy I'm sorry if my words here have been misinterpreted. What I was implying was the since this was listed as a P.E.A.C.H., and is open to everyone's opinion. Not that my own reflected everyone else's. Also, this is a critique of the OP's race, not of my posts. Please refrain from disecting and then commenting on indirectly.
Serge_P 11-09-07, 04:55 PM	I took away the full-caster in two classes. Is it fair now?
Dog_O_War 11-09-07, 05:02 PM	Maybe we need a bit more background on this race, to see where it fits within the game. Otherwise this'll be an endless arguement on what is and is not fair. Why fey? Where do they live in relation to other sentient races? why the restricted alignment? I understand that they are supposed to be chaotic, but why? Why the HUGE concentration penalty? if it is for the reason you've suggested, then what say - other than by extreme random chance - would such a character even stay with a group of adventurers for mar than a few days? Why would a race such as fey be restricted from even worshipping even deities of nature?
Serge_P 11-09-07, 05:57 PM	Why fey? I like fey. Where do they live in relation to other sentient races? They live in in forests, but near elven/halfling/giant/Gnome villages. They like to annoy other races, and play tricks on them. They appreciate company from other races. why the restricted alignment? I understand that they are supposed to be chaotic, but why? They are naturally chaotic, they don' like laws and other strict things, like schedules, plans and codes of conduct. They live one day hour at the time, and are extremely impulsive. They are very aesthetic and find lawful beings as unbearably boring. They strongly dislike lawful creatures and hate pedantic creatures. Why the HUGE concentration penalty? if it is for the reason you've suggested, then what say - other than by extreme random chance - would such a character even stay with a group of adventurers for mar than a few days? If the Älvfa finds them fun and interesting and entertaining, then it can stay very long (As long as it still can find the adventurers. If the Älvfa is lost, then the chance is little that it will find the adventurers, therefore, they usually try to stay close to the rest.) (Usually, the perfect band for a Älvfa to join would consist of a bard, a master of mask (Comp-Scound), a swashbuckler (Comp-War) and the Älfva, all chaotic).. If they find the adventurers too boring and too lawful, they usually wander off. (The least liked band consists of a lawful stupid cleric, awful good paladin and lawful neutral samurai and the chaotic Älvfa) Why would a race such as fey be restricted from even worshipping even deities of nature? They are not restricted. They can worship a deity, but they usually get bored after a week or two (Usually after two hours). And they get bored by all the ceremonies and rites and religious law. They live to have fun, to make art, to adventure and experience more fun, and to entertain themselves, not to worship, or work a day to day 9-5 job or to repeat same thing/task over and over, they don't find boring things worth doing.
Dog_O_War 11-10-07, 09:12 AM	I've messed up on some of calculations; this is a bad thing for this race (to be playable). As a fine sized character, he is entitled to a +32 bonus to hide, before the average racial modifier of +5. That is a +37 bonus to hide before even rolling. Also, as a fine sized character his base AC is 18, +5 for an average dex - so the average naked fey of this type has an AC of 23, before armour and equipment. Also, this character will have a +8 size bonus to attack; modified by the strength penalty gives them an average of +3 to attack (actually not that big a deal). Not that any of that matters. The penalty on strength, constitution and wisdom basically make them dump stats; with only 3 stats then that a person need worry about, this is a (mechanically) superior race. *I would like to ask OP, why they are so sickly?* *Also, why are they so un-wise?* This is the base I suggest you start from; STR: -6 DEX: +6 CON: -4 INT: +0 WIS: -2 CHA: +4 Invisibility(SP): 3/day (self only) Speed: 5 feet, Fly(perfect) 20 feet DR: 1/cold iron Fey traits Fine sized Alignment: as fey they have a very strong chaotic bent to their nature. (I wouldn't ever restrict a PC race's alignment; you'll only be disappointed as DM whenever someone ends up playing them as neutral or lawful). LA +4 This is just a suggestion of where to start.
Serge_P 11-10-07, 09:41 AM	They are very small, and frail. And they are very inattentive, absent-minded and have short attention span. What about?: ______ Str: -8 Dex: +8 Con: -8 Int: +2 Wis: -2 Cha: +2 Dr1/Cold Iron. (Or no DR at all) Greater Invisibility as pixie Fey traits Fine size. speed 5ft, fly 20ft (Perfect) -20 to concentration. -10 to hide (To even it up. They are not stealthy, and very loud, and like to show off. Hiding is not their thing. They rarely care about even attempting to hide because of their Greater Invisibility, and wrongly believe that not being seen is enough. (And their wings sound like mosquitoes but louder).). Alignment: usually chaotic. LA+3 _______ And fine gets +16, not +32 to hide: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLi ttleCreaturesInCombat
HCL 11-10-07, 10:06 AM	tbh fine size just isnt suitable for a race. Why dont you make a fine sized fey that a wizard could have as an improved familiar instead?
Dog_O_War 11-10-07, 10:12 AM	With the minus 8 con, any one of these fey would die to the first AoE spell that was cast against them, with two exceptions; ones with evasion, and ones with an '18' put onto con. Example: an Alfva wizard 20 DM "enemy wizard casts a fireball against you" Alfva *rolls* "I make my save" DM "okay, that fireball would've done 40 damage, but you saved and only take 20 points" Alfva "that is all of my hitpoints at 20th level. I'm dead" This is just one of the reasons why this race design is not playable, beyond the fine size traits. Also, giving a -10 to hide because they are "loud and not stealthy" has everything to do move silently and nothing to do with hide. Additionally, they would still have a +27 without rolling.
Serge_P 11-10-07, 10:36 AM	OK, What about A Diminutive fey? Is it more OK then?
key 11-12-07, 01:50 PM	As a fine sized character, he is entitled to a +32 bonus to hide The hide bonus for fine-sized creatures is +16 (as you stated in post #7).
Dog_O_War 11-12-07, 01:57 PM	This was a mistake, as noted in the other post. This is what it actually is. Small character: +4 to hide. Tiny character: +8 Dimiuative character: +16 Fine Character: +32.
key 11-12-07, 02:00 PM	OK, What about A Diminutive fey? Is it more OK then? There are many advantages and disadvantages to being fine-sized. I wouldn't give a LA for your Älvfa.
key 11-12-07, 03:27 PM	This was a mistake, as noted in the other post. This is what it actually is. Small character: +4 to hide. Tiny character: +8 Dimiuative character: +16 Fine Character: +32. SRD: "A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16."
Dog_O_War 11-12-07, 03:29 PM	Appearently, I was right the first time. *note to self; do not second-guess*
war_thog 11-14-07, 02:40 AM	If you're question is... "is this balanced?" The answer is most definetely not, nor could it ever be for any amount of LA. The disadvantages are too big. The advantages are too big. Huge disadvantages do not balance out huge disadvantages. Look at it this way. I have a 25pt buy char. I start on 8 all stats. The -8 to str isnt a -8 anymore. Its only -7. I have to spend 6 points to get a str of 5, which still does nothing. While it does recommend str 1 for monsters in the MM, thats fine for beasties. It jsut doesnt work for PC's. Your light carry weight range is 1-2lb. While you're equipment is somewhat lighter, you can't carry gold. Or a magic bag of holding. You can't carry anything really. Not sure how youll buy stuff, carry food, so on. You have a race which will NEVER be a fighter. Pigeonholing a race so much is baaadd. Even half ogres can be competent wizards. This guy cannot ever be competent at melee combat. The CON -8 is just way to crippling aswell. The rocommended Con for fine creatures is 2-11. Again -8 con = only -7 if you take your starting stat of 8. Again your stat range is 1-5. For str thats crippling. For con thats lethal. Your stat range of 1-5 gives you a -5 to -3 in con. As a rogue/bard you have 3 hp at 1st level. As a wizard/sorc you have 1 hp at 1st level. These are the only classes you can play as the stat neg in con/str/wis is far too crippling for any other class. At all levels of mage you're average hp=class. As a rogue/bard you're average per lvl is what 3 or so? you get 1,1,1,1,2,3 rolling a 1,2,3,4,5,6 on a d6. Out of 6 lvls thats 9 hp. You will be able to be auto killed by anything at of your CR at any level. Or of your CR-5 once you hit level 5. Hell a lvl 20 wizard of this can be 1 shotted by a lvl 1 barb. You're wis of -6 is also crippling. You'll never be a druid, cleric or monk. And due to the massive str and con, not a range or paladin either. You're stat range for wis is 2-8. Ridiculous. You're cripplingly retarded, or just a social nitwit. Because of the confinement to rogue/bard/wiz/sorc and your -5 to -3 on con to fort, you'll almost never pass a fort save. You will saves won't be quite so crippling if youre a caster, but youre screwed as a rogue. I know you gave them force of personality, but thats mind control spells only. Theres a lot out there that doesnt cover. What else..... aside from being a social retard in all cultures except your own, physically incompetent, on the brink of death, always. The DR 5/cold iron doesnt counter the low hp. The invis is too powerful early game. Then too easy to beat late game. You're hide check while huge doesnt matter, youre invis. You have huge AC, but still can be killed. One fireball in your general direction and you auto die. -20 concentration checks dont matter, youll rarely need it. You wont be in combat with people (flying, invis) and well, you're dead regardless. The DEX is too high for LA+3. You are going to be able to hit anything you want (size+dex) assuming you have finesse. Or youll never hit anything (terrible STR). What else, I know Ive missed something..... eh thats enough. Its a nice attempt, nice fluff and sorry for coming across harsh, but you wanted a critique. Theres everything wrong with it. The cha and int bonuses are reasonable, +4/+2 are good for LA+3. Low light vision is fine. 5/Cold Iron is fine. Balance involves getting moderate measures which are reasonable. Not too many big things and small things. Honestly I'd never play this as it'll die in every encounter that someone can find him. Until then hes too powerful as no-one can find him. And it pigeonholes too much. A balanced race allows you to fill any role. Some nudge more than others, but you arent crippled too much that you cant fill that role if you tried.