Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AZNsupermarket 10-08-06, 11:28 PM	Fixing the “Lesser” Planetouched: In The Players Guide to Faerun, there are versions of planetouched without level adjustment. These “Lesser” planetouched are one of the most unbalanced races in the game. I never liked the idea of level adjustments or Races of Destiny’s alternative. Here is my way of fix for the “lesser” planetouched: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/AZNtrogdor/folder.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/AZNtrogdor/Copyoffolder.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Tiefling_Aasimar_72.jpg “Lesser” Aasimar (Monster Manual) +2 Wisdom -2 Constitution -2 Intelligence – Aasimars think with heart, rather than their mind, and will often strive to find a morally sound solution to a problem, which could be solved more easily using more morally ambiguous tactics. Physically, their bodies are a little frail, which is often purposely hidden by their choice in apparel. • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Alignment Focus: “Lesser” Aasimars cast spells of the good descriptor at +1 caster level • Daylight (1/day) at Character level. • +2 Racial bonus on Listen & Spot checks • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all good spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Aasimar attains. • Favored Class: Cleric • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: There are a thousand and one ways to start off as a really cheesy LA +0 character with a bonus to wisdom. This is fairly balanced. Clerics have always been fairly dependent on constitution, and ever since the wildshaping errata forced druids to retain their original HP, they have as well become dependent on constitution as well. “Lesser” Tiefling (Monster Manual) +2 Intelligence +2 Dexterity -2 Charisma -2 Constitution – A Tiefling’s personality is cold and calculating. They physically quick on their feat, but a little frail. • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Alignment Focus: “Lesser” Tieflings cast spells of the evil descriptor at +1 caster level • Darkness (1/day) at Character level. • +2 Racial bonus on Bluff & Hide checks • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all evil spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Tiefling attains. • Favored Class: Rogue • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: The ability score adjustment match those of the fire elf (Unearthed Arcana). “Lesser” Chaond (Monster Manual II) • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Alignment Focus: “Lesser” Chaonds cast spells of the chaotic descriptor at +1 caster level • Shatter (1/day) at Character level. (DC11) • +2 Racial bonus on Escape Artist & Tumble checks • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all chaotic spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Chaond attains. • Favored Class: Any (as humans) • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: The once per day special ability is nice, but not unbalancing IMHO. “Lesser” Zenthyr (Monster Manual II) • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Alignment Focus: “Lesser” Zenthyrs cast spells of the lawful descriptor at +1 caster level • True Strike (1/day) at character level. • +2 Racial bonus on Balance & Survival checks • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all lawful spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Zenthyr attains. • Favored Class: Monk • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: The once per day special ability is nice, but not unbalancing IMHO. “Lesser” Air Genasi (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) +2 Dexterity -2 Charisma - Air genasi are quick of hand, but very arrogant • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Unseen Servant (1/day) as a first level sorcerer. • Elemental Focus: “Lesser” Air Genasi cast spells of the air descriptor at +1 caster level • A “Lesser” Air Genasi can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning. • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all air spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Air Genasi attains. • Favored Class: Ranger • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: The ability score adjustment match those of the snow elf (frostburn). “Lesser” Earth Genasi (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) +2 Strength +2 Constitution -2 Dexterity -2 Charisma - “Lesser” Earth Genasi are strong and tough, but slow to react and stubborn. • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Elemental Focus: “Lesser” Earth Genasi cast spells of the earth descriptor at +1 caster level • Pass Without Trace (1/day) as a fifth level druid. • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all earth spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Earth Genasi attains. • Favored Class: Fighter • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: The ability score adjustment match those of the Neanderthal (frostburn). “Lesser” Fire Genasi (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) +2 Intelligence -2 Wisdom -2 Strength - “Lesser” Fire Genasi have bright minds, but are impatient and brash. Although gifted at wizardry, “Lesser” Fire Genasi lack the physical strength of most races. • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Elemental Focus: “Lesser” Fire Genasi cast spells of the fire descriptor at +1 caster level • Control Flames (1/day) as a fifth level sorcerer (caster level six because of elemental focus). “Lesser” Fire Genasi can cause a nonmagical fire within 10 feet of them to diminish to the level of coals or flare to the brightness of daylight and double the normal radius of its illumination. This ability does not change the heat output or fuel consumption of the fire source. This ability lasts for a maximum of six minutes. • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Fire Genasi attains. • Favored Class: Wizard • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: It’s ability modifier might seem very strong, but keep in mind that a dragonborn grey elf gets +2 int -2 str and a dragonborn fire elf gets +2 int –2 cha. The reason why this “Lesser” Fire Genasi aren’t underpowered compared to the two races mentioned before is its elemental focus. Footnote: You can find the Dragonborn in Races of the Dragon. You can find the Gray Elf in the Monster Manual. You can find the Fire Elf in Unearthed Arcana. “Lesser” Water Genasi (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) +2 Constitution -2 Charisma - “Lesser” Earth Genasi have high endurance, but are cold and emotionally distant • Medium Size • 30’ movement • 30’ swim speed • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Elemental Focus: “Lesser” Water Genasi cast spells of the water descriptor at +1 caster level • Create Water (1/day) as a fifth level druid (caster level six because of elemental focus). • “Lesser” Water Genasi can breathe water as an extraordinary ability • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all water spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Water Genasi attains. • Favored Class: Fighter • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: The ability score adjustment match those of the Dwarf (Player’s Handbook). Now, please tell me what you think. Should I change anything? My only fear is that the elemental/allignment focus maybe too powerful in conjuction with their other bonuses. Thanks in advance :cool:
Kadasbrass 10-09-06, 12:10 AM	The -4 con is just a bit to much for the Aasimar, making it almost not worth playing. A players bottom line is their hit points.
Vagrond 10-09-06, 07:19 AM	-4 Con is CRIPPLING, and suggests being both prone to illness and unhealthy- not really characterful for an aasimar. It's also illogical; their favoured class is paladin, so they should be able to serve as one at least adequately.
AZNsupermarket 10-09-06, 07:25 AM	perhaps a +2 wis -2 con -2 str would be better?
SunTzuWarmaster 10-09-06, 09:14 AM	the favored class is paladin, model it after that: no Str/Con/Wis penalties +2 Wis -2 Char I would side with the Cha side of it with the flavor text something like: "Aasimar are always treated as outsiders and suffer a penalty to their ability when dealing with non-good non-outsiders (everyone except other angels, essentially) Is the +1 to saves or the darkvision the reason you keep giving them a -4?
AZNsupermarket 10-09-06, 03:42 PM	Double Post - See my next post
YabaTheWhat 10-09-06, 03:57 PM	The lesser air Genasi should not have both lack of breathing (providing immunity to drowning & several conditions) and the once/day spell. Presuming all the listed spells are 2nd level, the others all look like LA+0. In many cases they're LA+0 overpowered, but so are a number of other published races (heck, whisper gnomes are LA+1 balanced), so it's a definite improvement over the published Lesser Planetouched.
AZNsupermarket 10-09-06, 04:54 PM	the favored class is paladin, model it after that: no Str/Con/Wis penalties +2 Wis -2 Char +2 wis -2 cha isn't balanced without some other major penalties (like vow of silence in the case of the buoman). I'm now thinking of changing their favored class to cleric (a little more reasonable with their ability modifiers). And/or changing their ability modifiers to +2 wis -2 cha -2 con or +2 wis -2 str -2 con Hey if elves can have favored class wizards with a con penalty, then why can't Aasimars have favored class paladin or cleric with a con penalty? Is the +1 to saves or the darkvision the reason you keep giving them a -4? No, I really could care less about a +1 to saves or darkvision. I am wary of the wis bonus because of the CoDzilla
AZNsupermarket 10-09-06, 04:57 PM	The lesser air Genasi should not have both lack of breathing (providing immunity to drowning & several conditions) and the once/day spell. Presuming all the listed spells are 2nd level, the others all look like LA+0. In many cases they're LA+0 overpowered, but so are a number of other published races (heck, whisper gnomes are LA+1 balanced), so it's a definite improvement over the published Lesser Planetouched. Have often does drowning actually come up in actual games? Is being able to make something float for a little while so overpowered?
AZNsupermarket 10-09-06, 05:34 PM	New changes: Aasimar's favored class is now cleric Aasimar's ability adjustments are +2 wis -2 con -2 cha
SunTzuWarmaster 10-09-06, 05:47 PM	My point was: Is there a reason that: a) you are giving 2 -2 penalties (some other ability that is too powerful" b) the aasimar are "frail" (ie. take a constitution and/or strength hit). I play an adjusted LA+0 "half-aasimar" (lesser if you please) using the base class of a half-elf. no ability modifications, cast light 1/day, darkvision 60', +2 Spot/Listen, sleeps 4 hours/night, taller, longer life-span, treated as an outsider (rascism) because of identifying mark. Fairly balanced in my opinion, and plays the watchman of the party (immunity to fatigue from a class feature means he sleeps only every other night, maxed ranks in Spot+Listen).
AZNsupermarket 10-09-06, 06:21 PM	My point was: Is there a reason that: a) you are giving 2 -2 penalties (some other ability that is too powerful" I'm using the same reasoning that wotc used to create the half-orc. A bonus to wis is so powerful that it needs a penalty to con along with another penalty to balance out. b) the aasimar are "frail" (ie. take a constitution and/or strength hit). Regular Aasimars really have no weakness (2 ability bonuses and no penalties). It seemed logical that such a pale looking creature would be frail under all that armor. It also makes sense that such a "perfect" creature would come off as preachy.
YabaTheWhat 10-09-06, 06:53 PM	Have often does drowning actually come up in actual games? Is being able to make something float for a little while so overpowered? Drowning, gaseous poisons, vaccuum, etc., do come up, particularly in traps. Any sea-based campaign will have creatures whose main attack is to drown their victims. Don't dismiss it as worthless. As for levitation, being able to raise a non-melee party member out of melee range is pretty powerful at 1st level. It can also be used outside of combat as an instant infiltration tactic (Climb a 200-foot unclimbable wall, etc). Plus the spell only specifies an object must be unattended, and a 100-lb shard of cave ceiling counts as unattended.
The_Shaman 10-09-06, 07:48 PM	I don't quite understand the cha penalty for aasimar... While they aren't always likable, they should inherit a portion of their ancestor's force of personality to make up for it. Would a non-negative charisma really imbalance the class so much?
AZNsupermarket 10-09-06, 07:50 PM	Drowning, gaseous poisons, vaccuum, etc., do come up, particularly in traps. Any sea-based campaign will have creatures whose main attack is to drown their victims. Don't dismiss it as worthless. Worthless, no. Campaign specific, yes. In some campaigns this may come up a lot, but in most part these situations probably wouldn't come up on a regular basis. As for levitation, being able to raise a non-melee party member out of melee range is pretty powerful at 1st level. It can also be used outside of combat as an instant infiltration tactic (Climb a 200-foot unclimbable wall, etc). Plus the spell only specifies an object must be unattended, and a 100-lb shard of cave ceiling counts as unattended. I think that if the shard of cave ceiling is indead attatched to the ceiling then you wouldn't be able to move it. Using the same logic would you allow players to levitate away sections a wall if they weighed less than the spell limit? As a side note, it would also be hard to even touch the shard of the ceiling in the first place. I like the idea of the spell, but you are right, it is a little overpowered. Maybe you can help me tone it down to be more balanced with the character?
AZNsupermarket 10-09-06, 08:22 PM	I don't quite understand the cha penalty for aasimar... While they aren't always likable, they should inherit a portion of their ancestor's force of personality to make up for it. Would a non-negative charisma really imbalance the class so much? Well in all honesty, can't you make the same case for tiefling, and they are printed in the Monster Manual with a charisma penalty. "Lesser" Aasimars are born with a holy-than-thou-attitude, which most don't find endeering. Giving them a Charisma penalty does a few good things crunch-wise. It forces a cleric really think before taking this class (does he really want to give up his ability to turn undead so well and take the hit to hp)? This is a decent way to fight CoDzilla. It doesn't do a lot for druids (except make them even less charismatic than they min/maxed one would already be), but that's mostly why the constitution penalty is there for. A druid only really neads two stats, wisdom and constitution because they need wisdom for spellcasting and now retain their original hp in animal form. It doesn't really hurt the monk aasimar (the consitution penalty might a little, but what can you do?). I try to make them pretty decent monks because monks are a little underpowered as is. It also ironically makes them pretty decent paladins. By taking the feat, serenity from the dragon compendium volume 1, they can switch all paladin's class abilities that work off charisma to work off wisdom (they are my ideal candidates for this feat). If I didn't give them a charisma penalty, I would give them a penalty to another ability score to balance out a wisdom bonus. Almost any other penalty would hurt the paladin (maybe not int, but I couldn't think of any reason flavor-wise to give them an intelligence penalty).
Grey_Mage 10-10-06, 02:10 AM	I'm using the same reasoning that wotc used to create the half-orc. A bonus to wis is so powerful that it needs a penalty to con along with another penalty to balance out. Regular Aasimars really have no weakness (2 ability bonuses and no penalties). It seemed logical that such a pale looking creature would be frail under all that armor. It also makes sense that such a "perfect" creature would come off as preachy. 1) Almost everyone complains that the Half-orc got screwed. 2) Pale = no sun, or a lack of pigmentation. It has nothing to with ones abilty to fight off infection or take a hit. 3) An Aasimar isnt perfect, nor should they nessecairliy come off as Preachy. The Zenthyr *always thought that was a horrible picture btw* might though. However, while this is a agreeably a minus to many social considerations it actually implies a higher level of self worth and strength of personality, wich is really a Charisma bonus, not a penalty. Why not use the savage progression for them that gives them a lesser resistance etc, and only +2 cha. It seems fairly balanced.
AZNsupermarket 10-10-06, 03:37 PM	1) Almost everyone complains that the Half-orc got screwed. Yea, but wisdom overall is a lot more powerful stat than strength. This is why you never see a race with a wisdom bonus without level adjustment without some sort of huge penalties attatched (like vow of silence, -6 or -4 penalties to multiple ability scores). 2) Pale = no sun, or a lack of pigmentation. It has nothing to with ones abilty to fight off infection or take a hit. It is also possible that their paleness comes from a vitamin deficiency, which also makes them frail. Both of our explanations are plausible. I am from the school of thought that says that in the dm's world, races may not act the same way they are described as acting in the books. For instance, in my world, Elves have a very Asian-esque culture, which is more lawful than chaotic. In the same way, Aasimar are actually quite frail under all that armor. 3) An Aasimar isnt perfect, nor should they nessecairliy come off as Preachy. The Zenthyr *always thought that was a horrible picture btw* might though. However, while this is a agreeably a minus to many social considerations it actually implies a higher level of self worth and strength of personality, wich is really a Charisma bonus, not a penalty. Why not use the savage progression for them that gives them a lesser resistance etc, and only +2 cha. It seems fairly balanced. I agree with you on the fact that the zenthyr picture is pretty horrible, but what can you do? Hm... I guess preachy could come off as a charisma bonus rather than a penalty. Maybe condescending would be a better word? The reason I am not using the savage progression is quite simply that I'm not a big fan of its mechanics. I would much rather have every race be LA +0 and that be the end of it.
zook1shoe666 10-10-06, 04:23 PM	i didnt see that you added any of the Planetouched from the Fiend Folio... i was wondering about them and then the 2 in the Monsters of Faerun book. thanx i love all of the ones you've done ;)
DarknessEternal 10-10-06, 05:55 PM	The lesser versions, as printed, are already balanced against Humans.
zook1shoe666 10-10-06, 07:14 PM	they're completely unbalanced.... the "lesser" shyft gets Ethereal Jaunt 1/day with no penalties and drops from +3 to +0 for only changing the outsider -> humanoid thing. the wispling is also uber since the lesser one keeps the unbalanced stat changes along with change self 1/day and all of the halfling traits. and thats two of the FF planetouched and none of the FR:Mon planetouched.
AZNsupermarket 10-10-06, 09:36 PM	i didnt see that you added any of the Planetouched from the Fiend Folio... i was wondering about them and then the 2 in the Monsters of Faerun book. thanx i love all of the ones you've done ;) Thank you! It was partly because of you that I finally made this thing. When you reminded me how unbalanced the "lesser" planetouched actually were. I was avoiding the planetouched with LA's above +1 on purpose. One of the flaws of the original system (as you showed to me, not too long ago) was that those planetouched races with LAs above +1 could technically be made into ridiculously overpowered LA +0. If I ever worked up the courage of tackling it, I might try to make them LA +0 some day (I always had a special place in my hearts for Fey-ris :)). The lesser versions, as printed, are already balanced against Humans. :rofl: Maybe a few are already nearly balanced with humans, but most are not. they're completely unbalanced.... the "lesser" shyft gets Ethereal Jaunt 1/day with no penalties and drops from +3 to +0 for only changing the outsider -> humanoid thing. the wispling is also uber since the lesser one keeps the unbalanced stat changes along with change self 1/day and all of the halfling traits. and thats two of the FF planetouched and none of the FR:Mon planetouched. QFT :cookie: Here's a cookie for not making me explain this one - I was not looking foward to that http://www.nuklearpower.com/images/cookie/cookie02.jpg
Grey_Mage 10-11-06, 01:30 AM	I still disagree with positive stat bonuses = an imbalanced race. Just as - stat bonuses doesnt equal an imbalanced race. The idea that a races stats are all there are to it, or the end all be all... well it rather irks me, and I dont get the point. I feel it only forwardst he veiw that dnd is nothing more than a simple math equation. Oh, one thing- "+1 racial bonus on saving throws against all lawful spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Fire Genasi attains" Should be edited.
AZNsupermarket 10-11-06, 07:11 AM	I still disagree with positive stat bonuses = an imbalanced race. Just as - stat bonuses doesnt equal an imbalanced race. The idea that a races stats are all there are to it, or the end all be all... well it rather irks me, and I dont get the point. I feel it only forwardst he veiw that dnd is nothing more than a simple math equation. Maybe it would be possible to do what your saying, but simply put, a bonus to cha and wis would make aasimars the best clerics and paladins in the game hands down with no competition Oh, one thing- "+1 racial bonus on saving throws against all lawful spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Zenthyr attains" Should be edited. fixed - nice catch :)
YabaTheWhat 10-11-06, 08:24 AM	Maybe it would be possible to do what your saying, but simply put, a bonus to cha and wis would make aasimars the best clerics and paladins in the game hands down with no competition Going from a charisma bonus to a penalty doesn't feel right. It would make more sense to penalize the aasimar on two of the following: dex, con, int. That way they'd still make decent clerics or paladins (it is their favored class, after all), without overpowering them. Their bonus can go in either wisdom or charisma (though obviously not both; you knew that already). On the air genasi, please note that Water Breathing is a 3rd level spell. This means they're basically getting two 1/day SLAs, both at least 2nd level. (Granted water breathing isn't self only, but they also avoid gasseous poisons, etc.) As for the air genasi's abilities being circumstance specific, the same can be said for the water genasi. The range of Levitate is Close, not Touch, but either way it's enough to get the caster (or a dying ally) out of melee range for an entire combat.
DarknessEternal 10-11-06, 08:56 AM	Maybe it would be possible to do what your saying, but simply put, a bonus to cha and wis would make aasimars the best clerics and paladins in the game hands down with no competition Humans would still be better.
WayneTheGame 10-11-06, 04:11 PM	Just because WotC seems to think that a bonus to Strength or a casting stat (read; Str/Int/Wis/Cha) warrants hits to two others doesn't make it true. Most people I've talked to seem to think that WotC's idea is a load of BS anyways. The lesser versions are balanced, and you are just trying to nerf them with this "variant"
zook1shoe666 10-11-06, 05:05 PM	the lesser planetouched i mentioned in my last comment are NOT BALANCED whatsoever who wouldnt love an evil halfling with extra dex and intelligence and NO PENALTIES at all...... that is not balanced.
DarknessEternal 10-11-06, 05:33 PM	Why would anyone think they were balanced? Lesser Planetouched refers only to Aasimar and Tieflings.
WayneTheGame 10-11-06, 06:24 PM	Why would anyone think they were balanced? Lesser Planetouched refers only to Aasimar and Tieflings. And Genasi, but Genasi are largely considered to be rather weak even WITHOUT a Lesser version.. hell if you ask me Aasimar/Tiefling aren't really worth +1 LA.. they're on the lower end of that spectrum.
zae 10-11-06, 07:54 PM	Genasi don't deserve their adjustment. But the Aasimar and Tiefling... They're a bit too good for a +0, but losing a level really should require something pretty fantastic, just because of all the benefits you could instead have by taking another level of (casting class). I'd say just keep using the lesser Aasimar and Tieflings. They're a bit better than their nonplanar comrades, but only in a way noticable in the first few levels (and before someone mentions LA buy-off, you're still spending something to be rid of LA. If the buy-off was automatic and free, you'd have a point perhaps). Later on, it isn't enough to really matter, and their ability boosts probably won't make that much of a difference (in low levels). As for the spell-likes and resistances, well, useless later on, but early on, they're about the same as a bonus feat that you can spend on whatever you want, or immunity to sleep spells, or a +2 on basically all saving throws. Besides, it' nice to see the rare case of something that doesn't get shafted by their adjustment.
AZNsupermarket 10-11-06, 08:14 PM	Going from a charisma bonus to a penalty doesn't feel right. It would make more sense to penalize the aasimar on two of the following: dex, con, int. That way they'd still make decent clerics or paladins (it is their favored class, after all), without overpowering them. Their bonus can go in either wisdom or charisma (though obviously not both; you knew that already). Wow, great minds think alike. Pretty much everything you said went through my mind. I chose Wis over Cha because there are already two balanced races with a bonus to cha and +0 LA. I each similar conclusions as you did. I agree that the penalty to Charisma is a bit weird, but it seemed to give the least forced flavor text. -4 penalty to con was too much, and I couldn't find flavor text that I liked for a penalty to int or dex. They still make fine clerics (just not as good at turning at dead), and they still make fine paladins (as long as they take the serenity feat from dragon compendium volume 1). On the air genasi, please note that Water Breathing is a 3rd level spell. This means they're basically getting two 1/day SLAs, both at least 2nd level. (Granted water breathing isn't self only, but they also avoid gasseous poisons, etc.) As for the air genasi's abilities being circumstance specific, the same can be said for the water genasi. The range of Levitate is Close, not Touch, but either way it's enough to get the caster (or a dying ally) out of melee range for an entire combat. I'm still very interested to hear your alternatives :) Just because WotC seems to think that a bonus to Strength or a casting stat (read; Str/Int/Wis/Cha) warrants hits to two others doesn't make it true. Most people I've talked to seem to think that WotC's idea is a load of BS anyways. The lesser versions are balanced, and you are just trying to nerf them with this "variant" I would hardly call this a nerf. Toned down a bit, maybe. Are you referring to the fire genasi's bonus to int and penalty to cha and str? You do realize that I gave the a +1 caster level to all spells with the fire subtype? That is pretty powerful. Coupled with the fact that both cha and str are dump stats for wizards. I don't see where you're coming from. BTW IMHO "Lesser" Fire Genasi were one of the most balanced of the lesser planetouched to start with, I just wanted a somewhat balanced ability that would make them the best "fire mage" in the game. Humans would still be better. :nonono: I'm not going to continue this debate. All I'm going to say that you will find very few who would agree that they would rather have a bonus feat and skill as a cleric, rather than a bonus to wis and cha with no penalty And Genasi, but Genasi are largely considered to be rather weak even WITHOUT a Lesser version.. hell if you ask me Aasimar/Tiefling aren't really worth +1 LA.. they're on the lower end of that spectrum. Not only that, but using RAW, not Rules as Intended, these "lesser" variations could arguably be applied to other planetouched races in fiend folio and races of faerun that originally had larger level adjustments. EDIT: BTW all races with LA +1 or greater are underpowered
Grey_Mage 10-11-06, 08:18 PM	Consider giving them a Str Penalty? Someone whos rather tranquil and good might be overcome by that and in the end be physically weaker... *shrugs* It was my first consideration anyways. It also appeals to my side that says stats are equal- that works both ways after all. Mostly its just irking me.... Earth Genasi, chaodyn and maybe zenthyr I can see with CHA penalties... but thats about it. Everone else... it just doesnt feel right for the races... you know what I mean?
zook1shoe666 10-11-06, 08:46 PM	I would hardly call this a nerf. Toned down a bit, maybe. Are you referring to the fire genasi's bonus to int and penalty to cha and str? You do realize that I gave the a +1 caster level to all spells with the fire subtype? That is pretty powerful. Coupled with the fact that both cha and str are dump stats for wizards. I don't see where you're coming from. BTW IMHO "Lesser" Fire Genasi were one of the most balanced of the lesser planetouched to start with, I just wanted a somewhat balanced ability that would make them the best "fire mage" in the game. i agree completely the fire genasi is one of the most balanced, where as probably the aasimar and the wispling are the least balanced of any of the +1 LA planetouched :nonono: I'm not going to continue this debate. All I'm going to say that you will find very few who would agree that they would rather have a bonus feat and skill as a cleric, rather than a bonus to wis and cha with no penalty i agree COMPLETELY... human is one of the least played races for my games, while most people prefer elves and the little folk ;) Not only that, but using RAW, not Rules as Intended, these "lesser" variations could arguably be applied to other planetouched races in fiend folio and races of faerun that originally had larger level adjustments. yeah i brought that part up.... since it only said planetouched and both the FF and the FR: Monsters came out before the FR: Player's Guide. EDIT: BTW all races with LA +1 or greater are underpowered oh yeah of course..... i NEVER play a race with more than a +1 LA and i rarely ever play a +1 LA either, id rather have the class level and choose a different race.... unless it is my awesome idea.... a Were-Dingo Elf Druid :D
AZNsupermarket 10-11-06, 08:55 PM	i agree COMPLETELY... human is one of the least played races for my games, while most people prefer elves and the little folk ;) Errr... I have to disagree on this one. A Bonus Feat is extremely useful. Bonus skills and favored class:any both have their places. Conversely, these things aren't as useful to a paladin/cleric as bonus to wis and cha with no penalties. Elves, Dwarves, and the little folk all are great at the things they were made to do, but humans are extremely versatile :cool:
AZNsupermarket 10-11-06, 09:07 PM	Consider giving them a Str Penalty? Someone whos rather tranquil and good might be overcome by that and in the end be physically weaker... *shrugs* It was my first consideration anyways. It also appeals to my side that says stats are equal- that works both ways after all. I really pondered this one as well. I guess you could make a case for this one. Ultimately, I thought I could make a better case for a cha penalty, but I can still be convinced. Mostly its just irking me.... Earth Genasi, chaodyn and maybe zenthyr I can see with CHA penalties... but thats about it. Everone else... it just doesnt feel right for the races... you know what I mean? What about Fire Genasi?
zook1shoe666 10-11-06, 09:11 PM	i really prefer the ability modifier over the feat like 75% of the time. oh but dont get me wrong.... the feat can be really nice ;) and i was also referring to my games ;)
Grey_Mage 10-12-06, 12:41 AM	What about Fire Genasi? Wisdom penalty for being brash and maybe even, pardon the pun, hotheaded. Charisma bonus even maybe for the exact same reasons... though personally I think theyd be fine without the cha penalty and no bonus and switching it to wisdom. Of course I figure they could use a dex bonus to go with that... but thats mostly personal thought of fires movement potential. Oh... and while it was kind of annoying... why no clerical focus?
zae 10-12-06, 05:26 AM	I agree that Fire Genasi would be better with a Wis penalty, and you could arguably give them a Cha bonus - because Charisma isn't how polite you are, it's how certain you are that you're better than everyone else.
AZNsupermarket 10-12-06, 06:59 AM	Oh... and while it was kind of annoying... why no clerical focus? Changed it to elemental focus, which is a lot more powerful
zook1shoe666 10-12-06, 10:39 AM	i prefer the Elemental Focus ;) i think the Wis penalty is a little more appropriate for the Fire Genasi, since they tend to be more spontaneous ;) and dont think ahead before they act ;)
Grey_Mage 10-12-06, 11:25 AM	Changed it to elemental focus, which is a lot more powerful *nods* Of course it is, clerical focus was rather restrictive period. Couldnt worship properly and all that. *sighs*. Its kinda nifty, though in most of these cases of a limited use... wich works for a +0 LA. Alright... something else Im curious about : • Create Water (1/day) as a fifth level druid. *snip* • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all water spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Water Genasi attains. With the two abilities there... will it instead be cast as a 6th level druid? It doesnt seem by any means overpowered if it does... but I thought Id ask.
YabaTheWhat 10-12-06, 04:28 PM	I'm still very interested to hear your alternatives :) Either use a less powerful force spell than Levitate (mage hand?), or replace non-breathing with Hold Breath (see lizardfolk). Though the reason currently escapes me why a creature whose ancestors were surrounded by air wouldn't breathe air. On the abilities of Aasimar, sometimes the lack of mention is the reason for a penalty. Aasimars are given specific descriptions why they have wisdom and charisma bonuses. They are not described as agile (like the tiefling) or smart. The highest stats for angels are typically strength, charisma, and wisdom, with dexterity being the lowest (though all their stats are quite high).
AZNsupermarket 10-12-06, 05:28 PM	Wisdom penalty for being brash and maybe even, pardon the pun, hotheaded. Charisma bonus even maybe for the exact same reasons... though personally I think theyd be fine without the cha penalty and no bonus and switching it to wisdom.I agree that Fire Genasi would be better with a Wis penalty, and you could arguably give them a Cha bonus - because Charisma isn't how polite you are, it's how certain you are that you're better than everyone else.i think the Wis penalty is a little more appropriate for the Fire Genasi, since they tend to be more spontaneous ;) and dont think ahead before they act ;) Wow, a lot of you want a wis penalty.... I want to balance this a bit against int (trying to make them good wizards that focus on fire spells) I'm thinking either +2 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha or +2 Int -2 Wis -2 Str. Which would any of you prefer? i prefer the Elemental Focus ;)*nods* Of course it is, clerical focus was rather restrictive period. Couldnt worship properly and all that. *sighs*. Its kinda nifty, though in most of these cases of a limited use... wich works for a +0 LA. I'm glad you like it. I was trying to make them good at casting spell with their own special subtype, not force them to become casters of a specific subtype. Plus, in a world where you don't necessarily need to worship a god to be a cleric, why should anyone force them to? Alright... something else Im curious about : With the two abilities there... will it instead be cast as a 6th level druid? It doesnt seem by any means overpowered if it does... but I thought Id ask. It just occured to me literally five minutes ago that this spell can be translated as 1 level higher. My original intent was to have each spell's caster level have elemental focus already taken into account to prevent confusion. As a minor side note, one of the mechanics you quoted is different than the one you were refrencing. Either use a less powerful force spell than Levitate (mage hand?), or replace non-breathing with Hold Breath (see lizardfolk). Though the reason currently escapes me why a creature whose ancestors were surrounded by air wouldn't breathe air. Both great ideas, I will adopt both of them. On the abilities of Aasimar, sometimes the lack of mention is the reason for a penalty. Aasimars are given specific descriptions why they have wisdom and charisma bonuses. They are not described as agile (like the tiefling) or smart. The highest stats for angels are typically strength, charisma, and wisdom, with dexterity being the lowest (though all their stats are quite high). I'm liking the idea of an int, instead of a cha penalty. If anyone can think of some flavor text that I could feel comfortable with, I'll adopt the int penalty immediately.
Grey_Mage 10-12-06, 06:36 PM	Hmm... +2 Int? the -2str and wis makes sense more for me... but that makes them almost to focused on the wizard side mayhap? *shrugs* Id see it more like this: -2str, -2wis, +2 Dex, +2 Cha. Fire Genasi are as swift and sure as a flame, but somewhat less powerful physically than most humans and with a penchant for randomness. As for the Aasimarr Int Penalty... Im having a hard time justifying it without alot of stretching. The closest thing I can this of is something along the lines of "Due to their Celestial Heritage many people look up to Aasimarr, and so they are never challenged mentally as people instintively follow their lead". Still- seems like quite the stretch *and it could be phrased better*.
zae 10-12-06, 09:50 PM	Wow, a lot of you want a wis penalty.... I want to balance this a bit against int (trying to make them good wizards that focus on fire spells) I'm thinking either +2 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha or +2 Int -2 Wis -2 Str. Which would any of you prefer? If you really think they need two -2 abilities, then I'd suggest Wisdom (brashness) and Strength (their fiery bodies cause their metabolism to burn too much energy off, stopping them from physically developing that well). I'm liking the idea of an int, instead of a cha penalty. If anyone can think of some flavor text that I could feel comfortable with, I'll adopt the int penalty immediately. Perhaps their minds work on a different level (an alien intelligence), meaning they aren't quite as good at thinking about normal things? It's a stretch, really...
AZNsupermarket 10-13-06, 03:41 PM	Would saying that they think with heart, rather than their mind work?
Grey_Mage 10-14-06, 12:08 AM	Oi... "Aassimar are, on a whole, a rather intuitive race whose penchant for following their gut instincts of goodoften leaves them as somewhat boorish when looking at the refined arts and complex ideas. In the eyes of the Aassimar everything is based on its moral equivilant, not its aesthetic." Seems like a bit of a stretch... but it could work.
AZNsupermarket 10-15-06, 12:36 AM	I finally updated with all the changes I having been meaning to make. I have decided that elemental focus should stack with control flames and create water. I have one big nagging question: What ability adjustments should I give chaonds and zenthyrs to make them more interesting choices to play? -keep in mind that their one spell per day may be a bit more powerful than the rests -should I power that down too?
Grey_Mage 10-15-06, 12:49 AM	Chaodyn- None. Unless you can think of a decent way to make a random stat variation? I cant. Zenthyr.... Id think +2 Cha... but for a negative? For a being thats supposedly the perfect version?*Shakes head* I dont know.
zook1shoe666 10-15-06, 01:03 AM	for the Chaond..... i'm thinking a +2 Con -2 to a random other stat. roll a d10. 1-2: Str, 3-4: Dex, 5-6: Int, 7-8: Wis, 9-10: Cha for the Zenthyri.... i'm thinking a +2 Cha due to good looks and -2 Wis due to they're lack of ability to look outside the box
AZNsupermarket 10-16-06, 05:42 PM	hmmm... perhaps giving them balanced ability adjustment would be too difficult.
zook1shoe666 10-16-06, 05:48 PM	yeah true ;).... .good luck :p
zook1shoe666 10-25-06, 03:52 PM	and look at the Fey'ri... that RAW would have a +0 LA no matter what abilites from that list it got.
Loto_GoCeraf 10-25-06, 04:30 PM	Erm... Mr. Supermarket, if I may... After glancing at several materials, I think that you're mistaking the relevance of certain ability scores. I'm pretty sure that, for the most part, physical ability scores are considered more important than mental ones. For instance, a +2 Str bonus usuall garners such pentalties as -2 Int and -2 Wis, or some other combination of 2 mental ability scores. As such, Str - Dex - Con are considered 1 for 1 with one another and 1 for 2 with mental scores, whereas Wis - Int - Cha are 1 for 1 with one another and 2 for 1 with physical scores. This is very basic, and certain classes place more importance on certain scores than others. A fighter, for instance, will use wisdom for a will save (which he'll probably fail) and a couple of skills. A cleric, however, set his spell DC with it, uses his will saves, and multiple other things. The point is, you can't determine the importance of an ability score based on the class a certain race is expected to play. Look at it this way; an elf's racial ability modifiers are more geared toward a rogue or swashbuckler than they are for a wizard, their favored class. Even though an Aasimar, for instance, tends to be a cleric by your definition, that does not mean that they should have to pay a bigger price for their wisdom. Taking away constitution for the bonus is almost ludicrous, no insult directed at you.
zook1shoe666 10-25-06, 04:35 PM	we are all deciding what the abilities are... based on the actually race's personality and physical structure... and then balancing them appropriately ;)
AZNsupermarket 10-25-06, 11:44 PM	I'm having a bit of trouble following your logic, let me try to get what you're saying straight: As such, Str - Dex - Con are considered 1 for 1 with one another and 1 for 2 with mental scores bonus to one physical stat is balanced with one penalty to one physical stat -good example that supports this: halflings -good counter-examples off the top of my head that goes-against this theory: None bonus to one physical stat is balanced with penalties to two mental stats -good example that supports this: half-orcs -good counter-examples off the top of my head that goes-against this theory: dwarves (PHB +2 con -2 cha), wild elves (MM +2 dex -2 int), painted elves (sandstorm +2 dex -2 int), and snow elves (frostburn +2 dex -2 cha). I guess that according to wizards of the coast, strength is the most important physical stat because you can't get a bonus to strength with only one mental stat penalty (this is of course is ignoring the idea of mixing the dragonborn pseudo-template with elven sub-races). whereas Wis - Int - Cha are 1 for 1 with one another and 2 for 1 with physical scores. bonus to one mental stat is balanced with one penalty to one mental stat -good example that supports this: NONE - there is no LA +0 races in all of wotc published material that gives a bonus to a mental stat with just a penalty to another mental stat (this is of course is ignoring the idea of mixing the dragonborn pseudo-template with elven sub-races). There is of course the buomon, but buomon is a special case because a buomon is forced to take a vow of silence, thus crippling him as a spellcaster. bonus to two mental stats is balanced with one penalty to a physical stat -good example that supports this: NONE - There is only one race out there a bonus to two mental stats with a +0 LA and that is the lesser aasimar. In fact the races that take physical stat penalties for a mental stat bonus are always taking penalties in only con or dex, but never strength, and receive bonus in only int or cha, but never wis (this is of course is ignoring the idea of mixing the dragonborn pseudo-template with elven sub-races). The point is, you can't determine the importance of an ability score based on the class a certain race is expected to play. Look at it this way; an elf's racial ability modifiers are more geared toward a rogue or swashbuckler than they are for a wizard, their favored class. This really just a hold-over from older editions of DnD. I really don't agree with wotc's choice on this, but there are elven subraces and elven wizard substitution levels that help to make up for this shortcoming. You have to admit that it is quite uncommon for a 3.5 wotc published race to have its ability modifiers not match its favored class. Even though an Aasimar, for instance, tends to be a cleric by your definition, that does not mean that they should have to pay a bigger price for their wisdom. Taking away constitution for the bonus is almost ludicrous, no insult directed at you. :banghead: Look there is really no nice of putting this, but I'll try: Almost everything you just said is wrong IMHO. :hides: Every 3.5 race with a mental bonus at LA +0 with the exception of the buomon (which we have gone over at length), and mixing the dragonborn pseudo-template with elven sub-races, results in a creature with a pentalty to con or dex. Examples: grey elf, fire elf, star elf, sun elf, spell scale, and Deep Imaskari The only wotc published 3.5 race out there with a bonus with a wis bonus is buomon, but we have already gone over how wotc has taken steps to stop them from becoming a cleric or druid. So in short: No my version of the lesser aasimar is totally balanced IMHO. You can take my word on the facts I have said, I actually compiled the master list of every wotc published races at LA +0, and I include their ability adjustments among other things in their descriptions. You can find this list in my signature.
AZNsupermarket 10-25-06, 11:50 PM	and look at the Fey'ri... that RAW would have a +0 LA no matter what abilites from that list it got. I was avoiding the planetouched with LA's above +1 on purpose. One of the flaws of the original system (as you showed to me, not too long ago) was that those planetouched races with LAs above +1 could technically be made into ridiculously overpowered LA +0. If I ever worked up the courage of tackling it, I might try to make them LA +0 some day (I always had a special place in my hearts for Fey-ris :)). Maybe if I get some free time this weekend, I'll work on it. :cool:
zook1shoe666 10-26-06, 12:35 AM	I was avoiding the planetouched with LA's above +1 on purpose. One of the flaws of the original system (as you showed to me, not too long ago) was that those planetouched races with LAs above +1 could technically be made into ridiculously overpowered LA +0. If I ever worked up the courage of tackling it, I might try to make them LA +0 some day (I always had a special place in my hearts for Fey-ris :)). Maybe if I get some free time this weekend, I'll work on it. :cool: yeah i know.... i was just kind of spouting off and bring this one back into light from the darkness of the abyss of old boards ;) id love to see your fey'ri when you have time to make one ;)
AZNsupermarket 10-26-06, 06:48 AM	yeah i know.... i was just kind of spouting off and bring this one back into light from the darkness of the abyss of old boards ;) id love to see your fey'ri when you have time to make one ;) Ah.... I will try to set some time aside this weekend, I promise ;)
Loto_GoCeraf 10-26-06, 01:30 PM	:banghead: Look there is really no nice of putting this, but I'll try: Almost everything you just said is wrong IMHO. :hides: Hahaha. It's alright. The point I was trying to make, though, is one in the defense of what WOTC says is right and wrong (without trying to be a narrow-minded rules lawyer). It's obvious that you know your stuff much better than I do (I am, after all, a player first and DM never). My argument was coming from page 173 of the DMG. When looking at the dwarves, it's good to keep in mind that things aren't determined solely through ability modifiers. Dwarves, for instance, have a +2 Con -2 Cha. That still leaves somethin' bad to counteract the extra good. To this, they're the only medium-sized base class with a base speed of 20. All races are mostly composed of good stuff. Humans for, instance, get a free skill point (cool) and a free feat (AWESOME!!!). Nothing bad to be said. Elves get the +2 Dex (cool) and a -2 Con (ouch) to keep the balance, but everything else is positive. The point is, the only weaknesses that most races should have should revolved around balancing ability scores. Wow, that was a tangent. Um. Page 173. Loto's argument. Peace out.
YabaTheWhat 10-26-06, 01:51 PM	Both great ideas, I will adopt both of them. Since you're adopting both ideas, it's probably worthwhile to let them have Mage Hand more than once per day. It's a zero-level spell, whereas most of the other races get first-level spells, and they're no longer compensating for a major ability. Alternatively, there are a couple very nice first-level spells for an air-based character (mage armor, shield, unseen servant) that they could use once per day. I suggested Mage Hand because it wouldn't carry much value, making it reasonable alongside not needing to breathe without warranting a level adjustment.
AZNsupermarket 10-26-06, 03:45 PM	Since you're adopting both ideas, it's probably worthwhile to let them have Mage Hand more than once per day. It's a zero-level spell, whereas most of the other races get first-level spells, and they're no longer compensating for a major ability. Alternatively, there are a couple very nice first-level spells for an air-based character (mage armor, shield, unseen servant) that they could use once per day. I suggested Mage Hand because it wouldn't carry much value, making it reasonable alongside not needing to breathe without warranting a level adjustment. Unseen Servant seems to be a slightly better version of mage hand. Perhaps that would be a better choice?
AZNsupermarket 10-26-06, 04:08 PM	Hahaha. It's alright. The point I was trying to make, though, is one in the defense of what WOTC says is right and wrong (without trying to be a narrow-minded rules lawyer). It's obvious that you know your stuff much better than I do (I am, after all, a player first and DM never). My argument was coming from page 173 of the DMG. When looking at the dwarves, it's good to keep in mind that things aren't determined solely through ability modifiers. Dwarves, for instance, have a +2 Con -2 Cha. That still leaves somethin' bad to counteract the extra good. To this, they're the only medium-sized base class with a base speed of 20. All races are mostly composed of good stuff. Humans for, instance, get a free skill point (cool) and a free feat (AWESOME!!!). Nothing bad to be said. Elves get the +2 Dex (cool) and a -2 Con (ouch) to keep the balance, but everything else is positive. The point is, the only weaknesses that most races should have should revolved around balancing ability scores. Wow, that was a tangent. Um. Page 173. Loto's argument. Peace out. Well I agree with a lot of what you said for a core only setting, but a lot of this has changed with the increasing amount of supplements. Just some notes: -My advice is to forget page 173, WotC has really changed their ideas of what stats are important and what are not. IMHO they are putting a lot less emphasis on the importance of a bonus to physical stats (especially strength) and more emphasis on the importance of a bonus to mental stats (especially wisdom). -Yes I understand that ability adjustments aren't the end all, be all of race balance. If you want to balance a race with unbalanced powerful ability modifiers, you better give some really big penalties to even it out. -What you said about dwarves and humans are very true. I actually thought about removing the dwarf example completely because it wasn't a very good example. Now here's a better example: take the PHB elf, don't change a thing about it, except take the penalty to con and change it to a cha penalty. Not very balanced because constitution is so much more important than charisma, right? What you have is a snow elf found in WotC's book: Frostburn. -With WotC's new ideas of ability adjustment importance in mind, it isn't to big of a stretch to say that a +2 Wis is balanced against a -2 Con and a -2 Int.
Loto_GoCeraf 10-26-06, 04:42 PM	Now here's a better example: take the PHB elf, don't change a thing about it, except take the penalty to con and change it to a cha penalty. Not very balanced because constitution is so much more important than charisma, right? What you have is a snow elf found in WotC's book: Frostburn. Hmm... that's a good point. Something I tried to do with my planetouched Mongrelfolk (it's on the races threat list) is offer a weakness that stems elsewhere from ability scores or responses to ability scores. I think that races should have inherent strengths AND weaknesses that aren't directly tied to ability scores. That would make balancing them a bit more manageable, as well as make them a bit more interesting to play. My Planetouched Mongrelfolk, for instance, can be bound in the same fashion as a demon if the wizard's a little creative. What you said about wisdom becoming more important becomes more true as each book adds more feats, classes, and spells that require wisdom. Psionics, for instance, could be called the quintessential wisdom exploitation, for psychic warriors at least. Their DCs, power points, and even the strength of a couple powers is tied to this ability.
sigma999 10-27-06, 12:33 AM	A once-a-day spell is hardly overpowering, and definitely not worth even half an LA. I personally can't see why Aasimar and Tiefling have LA in the first place, other than more ability score adjustments than detriments (off by +2.. meh) and Outsider type (qualifies for some feats, spells) Take off a Tiefling's bonus, either dex or int, and one of the Aasimar's, either wis or cha, and make them "humanoid (augmented)". Then they can take a feat to boost up to normal RAW planetouched. Same goes for the others but I don't feel like giving 20 or so instances. :{
pukunui 02-12-07, 04:37 AM	Just a quick note to say that it's "zenythri" not "zenthyr".
MasonMurdoc 03-12-07, 03:14 PM	What's wrong with them as they are?
benihana 03-12-07, 04:20 PM	The lesser planetouched are really just like dwarves and gnomes. Lots of cool stuff, but nothing overpowering. Look at the dwarf. +2 against spells? +4 AC against giants? +1 attack against some of the most common monsters? Additions to skill checks that almsot make them as skillful as humans until like level 10? And that favored class-fighter gives them tons of feats for missing out on one level of their primary class. The tradeoff? A -2 to Cha. That's it. Ever think about how dwarves get a -2 to Cha and yet still make awesome clerics? If lesser Aasimar and tieflings are +1 LA, then IMO dwarves are too.
MasonMurdoc 03-12-07, 04:28 PM	I think Fire Genasi suit Sorcorer better Even though they're more beneficial being Wizards Plus why change there favoured class? Yeah they will be better at it But it's based on society no the way they Anyway I think Fire should have +2 Cha -2 Wis It suits them beter IMO They're probably quite attractive(Fire is pretty) and they'd be a little hot headed so don't think about consiquences much Please note that I'm bad at the talky thing so have phrased this quite badly Oh, and for the post aboth. Aasimars, Teiflings, and the other planetouched have +1 LA because there outsiders Dwarves aren't So They are uneffected by things Dwarfs and all other Humanoids are
benihana 03-12-07, 04:42 PM	Oh, and for the post aboth. Aasimars, Teiflings, and the other planetouched have +1 LA because there outsiders Dwarves aren't So They are uneffected by things Dwarfs and all other Humanoids are Lesser Aasimar and lesser tielfings aren't outsiders. They're planetouched humanoids. That's why they drop from +1 to +0. They're just as mortal as everyone else.
MasonMurdoc 03-12-07, 04:56 PM	Lesser Aasimar and lesser tielfings aren't outsiders. They're planetouched humanoids. That's why they drop from +1 to +0. They're just as mortal as everyone else. Woops. Sorry, I missed the lesser In that case I agree with you
MasonMurdoc 03-12-07, 07:24 PM	What's wrong with them anyway? The only thing I don't like is the Clerical Focus
zook1shoe666 03-12-07, 08:07 PM	whats wrong with them.... most are uber-powerful. aasimar: +2 wis/cha, acid/cold/electricity res 5, darkvision 60ft, light 1/day, +2listen/spot, and no penalties. +0 LA tiefling has +2dex/+2 int, cold/fire/electricity res 5, darkvision 60ft, darkness 1/day, +2 hide/bluff, and only penalty is -2 cha. +0 LA obviously the genasi are much more balanced.
benihana 03-12-07, 08:30 PM	whats wrong with them.... most are uber-powerful. aasimar: +2 wis/cha, acid/cold/electricity res 5, darkvision 60ft, light 1/day, +2listen/spot, and no penalties. +0 LA tiefling has +2dex/+2 int, cold/fire/electricity res 5, darkvision 60ft, darkness 1/day, +2 hide/bluff, and only penalty is -2 cha. +0 LA obviously the genasi are much more balanced. I think people have this idea that racial traits are supposed to even out to 0. They don't. Humans don't have any penalties whatsoever. They get a free maxed out skill and feat for nothing. Darkvision and the spell/day aren't powerful at all. Most races get at least low-light vision, and gnomes get several spells/day. +2 to two skills is good, but most races get bonuses to skills. The energy resistances are on par with a dwarf's resistance to spells, a gnomes powerful illusions, or an elf's immunity to sleep. So we got the ability modifiers. They're on par with insane +4 AC bonuses and +1 attack rolls, or +1 TO ALL SAVES. Planetouched just look powerful because they have a long list of minor bonuses instead of a handful of major ones.
zook1shoe666 03-12-07, 09:49 PM	Planetouched just look powerful because they have a long list of minor bonuses instead of a handful of major ones. you call +4 total ability mods a minor bonus? :eek:
AZNsupermarket 03-12-07, 11:58 PM	you call +4 total ability mods a minor bonus? :eek: QFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! +2 cha +2 wis w/ no penalties at LA +0 does not equal balanced!!!!!!!!
benihana 03-13-07, 12:46 PM	No. The resistances, spell/day and darkvision are minor bonuses. The bonus to skill checks are around medium. The +2 ability scores are great. However, they aren't broken. They're on the higher end of racial abilities, but are no more powerful than Dwarves.
zook1shoe666 03-13-07, 06:27 PM	They're on the higher end of racial abilities, but are no more powerful than Dwarves. ehh... to i still consider alot of the dwarf stuff... minor. but hey to each their own.
Witch 03-13-07, 06:31 PM	QFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! +2 cha +2 wis w/ no penalties at LA +0 does not equal balanced!!!!!!!! Look further than mere ability scores. If you'd give a race +2 to all mental scores and nothing else, you'd still not have a LA +1 race. Lesser Planetouched are fine. Normal Planetouched are underpowered. People need to start looking further than their own nose and see that the balance of a race doesn't depend on the exact balance of their ability score adjustments.
AZNsupermarket 03-13-07, 10:25 PM	No. The resistances, spell/day and darkvision are minor bonuses. The bonus to skill checks are around medium. The +2 ability scores are great. However, they aren't broken. They're on the higher end of racial abilities, but are no more powerful than Dwarves. Dwarves are overrated IMHO. Most of their abilities are useless in most situations, and due to a slight power creep in D&D supplements, there are many other races that are much stronger than dwarves IMO (ex whisper gnomes, snow elves, dragonborn of bahamut). Look further than mere ability scores. If you'd give a race +2 to all mental scores and nothing else, you'd still not have a LA +1 race. Lesser Planetouched are fine. Normal Planetouched are underpowered. People need to start looking further than their own nose and see that the balance of a race doesn't depend on the exact balance of their ability score adjustments. I have to disagree with almost everything you just said. I highlighted in red the parts I strongly disagree with. I highlighted in blue the parts I disagree with to a certain extent. I highlighted in green the parts I agree with. What it comes down to is your definition of "overpowered". Overpowered (in terms of race) in my book means the point at which every other race seems inferior in comparison at trying fill the role as a certain class. The "lesser" Aasimar, for instance, makes every other 3.5 edition race an inferior choice for cleric, druid, paladin, or sorcerer. They can all have bonuses to their most important stats without worrying about penalties to any others. No other race give such benefits without any drawbacks. From a power gaming standpoint, it wouldn't make sense to play any other race. The only other races you could attempt to make a case for as better druids, clerics, sorcerers, or paladins are either anthropomorphic animals or humans. Anthropomorphic animals are also horrendously broken, and from 3.0 edition (so they don't count in my book). I personally believe that a bonus feat and skill point are inferior to a bonus to two mental stats with no penalties, especially to druids, clerics, sorcerers, and paladins. So humans are also an inferior choice.
zook1shoe666 03-13-07, 10:45 PM	wow... thanx for the help, AZNsupermarket, i agree completely :) with all of what you posted. then also...... Lesser Aasimar also make excellent monks, due to the +2 Wis. Lesser Tiefling make excellent rangers and good dex-based fighters and rogues, due to the +2 Dex/Int. -2 Cha only really hurts the rogues. Lesser Air Genasi make excellent wizards and psions, due to the +2 Dex/Int. Lesser Earth Genasi make excellent non-paladin melee classes, due to the +2 Str/Con. Lesser Fire Genasi make excellent wizards and psions, due to the +2 Int. Lesser Water Genasi make excellent non-bard/sorcerers, due to the +2 Con.
Witch 03-14-07, 06:31 AM	What it comes down to is your definition of "overpowered". Overpowered (in terms of race) in my book means the point at which every other race seems inferior in comparison at trying fill the role as a certain class. The "lesser" Aasimar, for instance, makes every other 3.5 edition race an inferior choice for cleric, druid, paladin, or sorcerer. They can all have bonuses to their most important stats without worrying about penalties to any others. No other race give such benefits without any drawbacks. From a power gaming standpoint, it wouldn't make sense to play any other race. The only other races you could attempt to make a case for as better druids, clerics, sorcerers, or paladins are either anthropomorphic animals or humans. Anthropomorphic animals are also horrendously broken, and from 3.0 edition (so they don't count in my book). I personally believe that a bonus feat and skill point are inferior to a bonus to two mental stats with no penalties, especially to druids, clerics, sorcerers, and paladins. So humans are also an inferior choice. By analogy, half-orcs are underpowered simply because they make bad wizards and sorcerers. Dwarves are underpowered simply because they make bad sorcerers. Etcetera. Personally, the number of times I've wanted another feat has been enormous, and I'd often take it over mental bonuses.
AZNsupermarket 03-14-07, 07:26 AM	By analogy, half-orcs are underpowered simply because they make bad wizards and sorcerers. Dwarves are underpowered simply because they make bad sorcerers. Etcetera. Personally, the number of times I've wanted another feat has been enormous, and I'd often take it over mental bonuses. You screwed up your analogy. Half-elves are underpowered because there isn't a situation where you want to play an half-elf rather than a human or elf.
Witch 03-14-07, 08:21 AM	You screwed up your analogy. Half-elves are underpowered because there isn't a situation where you want to play an half-elf rather than a human or elf. No, because that analogy wouldn't work out correctly. What he was saying that lesser aasimar make every other race inferior for playing clerics. What I said was that orcs make every other race superior for playing wizards.
zook1shoe666 03-14-07, 09:48 AM	No, because that analogy wouldn't work out correctly. What he was saying that lesser aasimar make every other race inferior for playing clerics. What I said was that orcs make every other race superior for playing wizards. we was saying.... amongst the other +0 LA races... lesser aasimars make some of the best clerics, since Wisdom is their primary ability score. we OBVIOUSLY did not make a half-orc one, so leave the half-orcs out of it!
Witch 03-14-07, 09:54 AM	we was saying.... amongst the other +0 LA races... lesser aasimars make some of the best clerics, since Wisdom is their primary ability score. we OBVIOUSLY did not make a half-orc one, so leave the half-orcs out of it! And why can't the aasimar be the best clerics and still be balanced?
AZNsupermarket 03-14-07, 11:52 PM	No, because that analogy wouldn't work out correctly. What he was saying that lesser aasimar make every other race inferior for playing clerics. What I said was that orcs make every other race superior for playing wizards. Whether on purpose or by accident, you are commiting a logical fallacy. This is called a straw man fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) I never claimed that half-orcs are underpowered simply because they make bad wizards and sorcerers. You did. I maintain that in order to work in order to work in reverse, a race would have to be inferior in almost EVERY situation to another race in order for it to be truly underpowered in comparison. Examples: why play an half-elf when you could play an elf or human? Why play a PHB halfling when you can play a strongheart halfling? Why play a half-orc when you could play a dragonborn wood elf? And why can't the aasimar be the best clerics and still be balanced? their are exactly 166 LA +0 races in existence. The fact that the lesser aasimar make the other 165 inferior in practically every way as cleric, druid, paladin, and sorcerer proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are imbalanced.
DS 03-15-07, 12:34 AM	The problem is "best" is a very subjective term to be throwing around. Many people I know consider humans to be the best race for nearly everything because the free feat and skill points are so good for prestige classes. Personally, I don't think Lesser Aasimar are particularly overpowered but they do seem to be most useful in classes that don't need a power boost. their are exactly 166 LA +0 races in existence. The fact that the lesser aasimar make the other 165 inferior in practically every way as cleric, druid, paladin, and sorcerer They are only superior to 164 races. Dragonwrought Kobolds own Lesser Aasimars in all thoses classes except perhaps Paladin.
AZNsupermarket 03-15-07, 12:52 AM	The problem is "best" is a very subjective term to be throwing around. Many people I know consider humans to be the best race for nearly everything because the free feat and skill points are so good for prestige classes. Personally, I don't think Lesser Aasimar are particularly overpowered but they do seem to be most useful in classes that don't need a power boost. You bring up a good point, except if there was a human only bonus feat that made you give up your bonus skill points for +2 cha +2 wis, would it be balanced? They are only superior to 164 races. Dragonwrought Kobolds own Lesser Aasimars in all thoses classes except perhaps Paladin. I wouldn't say "own" because they are neck in neck for most of these. I concede that you have found one exception to the rule, but you have to admit that a venerable dragonwrought kobold is a poor source for comparison in terms of deciding a race's power level.
Witch 03-15-07, 10:47 AM	The fact that the lesser aasimar make the other 165 inferior in practically every way as cleric, druid, paladin, and sorcerer Prove it. I see a +1 to DCs and some extra bonus spells. Show me what other bonus Aasimar gain in order to be superior in practically every way.
AZNsupermarket 03-15-07, 05:58 PM	Prove it. I see a +1 to DCs and some extra bonus spells. Show me what other bonus Aasimar gain in order to be superior in practically every way. Let's take clerics for instance. +2 cha +2 wis gives you: +1 dc bonus spells +1 will saves +1 to various skill checks +1 vs turning undead another chance to turn undead, which can be used for: divine metamagic divine shield (cha to AC - now also +1) divine might (cha to damage - now also +1) Remember that this is generally accept as one of the strongest classes ever created. Also keep in mind that every caster in the game's primary mission is to get their main caster stat up as high as they can while maintaining a decent amount of hp and ac (con and dex). Nearly every LA +0 race in the game that has a bonus to a mental stat also has penalty to either con or dex. An aasimar doesn't have either of those penalties. In fact, they are the only LA +0 race in the game with a bonus to any stat that doesn't have penalty to any other. By doing this, they are breaking one of the primary principles of race balance. if your a paladin, you get: +1 dc bonus spells +1 will saves +1 to various skill checks +1 to all saving throws because of divine grace +1 to attack because of smite evil A number equal to his level more hp healed due to lay on hands +1 vs turning undead another chance to turn undead, which can be used for: divine metamagic divine shield (cha to AC - now also +1) divine might (cha to damage - now also +1) I don't know if your in the crowd that says that mental stats aren't that important, but they really are. To pretty much all the most powerful classes in game, a mental stat is the most important stat they have. By optimizing your build, you can also get a lot of bonuses from just one mental stat: X stat to Y bonus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889)
zook1shoe666 03-15-07, 08:24 PM	nicely done AZNsupermarket :)
zook1shoe666 03-16-07, 08:09 PM	good thing the Lesser Planetouched doesn't apply to the other planetouched :D
danielinthewolvesden 03-17-07, 04:27 AM	I fixed the Genasi very simply. I took away their LA+1. Still, no one wanted to play them.:weep: