Fixxing the Cambion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fixxing the Cambion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gadren
06-03-07, 08:59 PM Ok, so anyone who has seen the "Cambion as Characters" write up (Expedition to Demon Web Pits), has realized that the writer has never even played a 3rd edition game before (odd abilitity scores, prestige class as a favored class, lame LA, etc.).
I haven't found a fix, and who knows when WotC will do an errata, so here's how I think it should have been done. (Input is welcome.):

CAMBIONS AS CHARACTERS

Cambions are predisposed to be rogues and assassings, but a few become spellcasters. A cambion cleric typically serves as a demon lord rather than a deity and has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Knowledge, Trickery, or War (favored weapon: any sword). Most cambion spellcasters, however, as wizards who favor spells that enhance stealth or provide touch attacks.
. Cambion characters possess the following racial traits:
- +8 Str, +6 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, -4 Wis, -6 Cha
- Medium Size
- Base land speed of 40 feet.
- 60 ft. Darkvision
- +2 natural armor bonus
- Spell-Like Abilities: Usable a number of times per day equal to character level (At will at 6th) - detect magic, fear, mirror image, invisibility, levitate. DCs are intelligence-based.
- Aligned Strike: A cambion's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
- Alternate Form (Sp): A cambion can assume the form of a specific humanoid-shaped creature (typically a human, drow, elf, aasimar, tiefling, githyanki, githzerai, marrash, or gnoll, but sometimes a goblinoid) as a standard action once per day. This ability functions as an alter self spell, except a cambion may choose the form of a humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or humanoid-shaped outsider, and can assume only the form of that specific creature. A cambion can remain in its humanoid form until it chooses to return to its natural form.
- A cambion has the option of gaining outsider hit dice instead of a class levels when leveling up.
- Silent Metal (Ex): A cambion has no armor check penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks.
- Automatic Languages: Abyssal, Common. Bonus Languages: Celestial, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Infernal
- Favored Class: Rogue
- Level Adjustment: +3

Marquis and Barons
The progeny of demon lords and princes, Marquis and Baron Cambions are more powerful and have the following adjustments. These are in addition to normal Cambion adjustments (except in where noted):
- +10 Str, +8 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis (These replace standard Cambion ability score adjustments)
- Spell-like ability: Usable a number of times per day equal to character level (At will at 6th) - Charm Person
- Level Adjustment: +4
asurademon
06-03-07, 11:11 PM I would just use the Cambion in the 3.5 Monstrous Manual (its entry is labelled half-fiend, but cambion is a word for half-fiends of humanoid descent), or make a variant cambion with traits that depend upon what type of fiend its fiendish parent was. If you really want to stay true to real world lore than make it a half-succubus (a bigger charisma boost, and not as great of a strength boost as the one in the Monstrous manual, and replace some of its spell-like abilities with ones the succbus has). I don't really understand the point of that variant cambion, the one in the monstrous manual is so much better. A race with a -6 penalty to charisma isn't just not likable, on average they hardly even have a personality, what a crappy race to roleplay (unless you sink a lot of points into charisma).

EDIT: ugg, it's polymorph ability says it can take the form of any humanoid or monstrous humanoid, and uses tiefling and aasimar as an example, neither of which are humanoid, though lesser tiefling and aasimar are, another sign that this race was just horribly made (was that mistake in the original entry? I can't remember, I saw it a while ago, if not I don't mean to be offensive or anything, just pointing out an error).

If you really want to fix it I suppose you could it a -2 to charisma and a +6 to strength, or if you think that's still too high a strength (and considering how crippling LA is in my experience I don't think so) you could lower its strength further to a +4. I think this adjustment would help to make this race more worthwhile, without really warranting a higher LA. I would never give a playable race more than a -4 charisma. The way I think of it, a race with a -2 charisma may tend to be socially awkward, or just really lack tact in how they deal with things, but they can still have strong personalities despite this. With a -4 a race is really really one that has a hard time getting around among races in which social tact is important, and they probably have a weak personality. I really just think the -6 charisma is too much for a playable race.
Jeriaus
06-03-07, 11:22 PM where is the Marquis Cambion getting higher lhysical stats then the regular one?
Kazeofwinds
06-04-07, 01:21 AM I'd give the at-will SLAs as a progression similar to how a half celestial/fiend gets them (though faster, probably having them all by 10HD), simply because a fourth/5th level cambion would be absurdly strong in comparison to the most of the party(admittedly, with crappy hitpoints, and It'd probably level out by like ecl 8) Or replace the level adjustment with like 6 outsider HD(LA above 4 is pretty much unplayable, hitdice are workable IMO espescially outsider ones), They're good, but still inferior to class levels by a bunch.

It's still more well-done than the original version, though.
Gadren
06-04-07, 03:23 AM where is the Marquis Cambion getting higher lhysical stats then the regular one?

The marquis cambion stats are supposed to be added on to a normal cambion stats, so I added it on to the normal cambion stats I wrote up. I wrote up the "normal" cambion stats based on the entry they had in the previous stat block instead of the "Cambions as Characters" block which not only had odd adjustments but was lowers on nearly every single attribute than the example cambion should have.
Darkon Slayer
06-04-07, 11:48 AM Yea, I found those stat adjustments stupid and weird.
everyone knows that when you take racial stats from the written up creature, you subtract 11 from odd numbers and 10 from even numbers. How the writer came up with the stat adjustments he put on the Cambion as character I don't have the foggiest.
Gadren
06-04-07, 01:28 PM I'd give the at-will SLAs as a progression similar to how a half celestial/fiend gets them (though faster, probably having them all by 10HD), simply because a fourth/5th level cambion would be absurdly strong in comparison to the most of the party(admittedly, with crappy hitpoints, and It'd probably level out by like ecl 8) Or replace the level adjustment with like 6 outsider HD(LA above 4 is pretty much unplayable, hitdice are workable IMO espescially outsider ones), They're good, but still inferior to class levels by a bunch.

It's still more well-done than the original version, though.

I changed this a bit, made it so they can't use them at will until level 6 (ECL 9).

EDIT: ugg, it's polymorph ability says it can take the form of any humanoid or monstrous humanoid, and uses tiefling and aasimar as an example, neither of which are humanoid, though lesser tiefling and aasimar are, another sign that this race was just horribly made (was that mistake in the original entry? I can't remember, I saw it a while ago, if not I don't mean to be offensive or anything, just pointing out an error).

I changed this too. Maybe what I've written now works better than what they had down.
Gadren
06-20-07, 02:34 AM Anyone tried using my variant Cambion?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gadren 06-03-07, 08:59 PM	Ok, so anyone who has seen the "Cambion as Characters" write up (Expedition to Demon Web Pits), has realized that the writer has never even played a 3rd edition game before (odd abilitity scores, prestige class as a favored class, lame LA, etc.). I haven't found a fix, and who knows when WotC will do an errata, so here's how I think it should have been done. (Input is welcome.): CAMBIONS AS CHARACTERS Cambions are predisposed to be rogues and assassings, but a few become spellcasters. A cambion cleric typically serves as a demon lord rather than a deity and has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Knowledge, Trickery, or War (favored weapon: any sword). Most cambion spellcasters, however, as wizards who favor spells that enhance stealth or provide touch attacks. . Cambion characters possess the following racial traits: - +8 Str, +6 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, -4 Wis, -6 Cha - Medium Size - Base land speed of 40 feet. - 60 ft. Darkvision - +2 natural armor bonus - Spell-Like Abilities: Usable a number of times per day equal to character level (At will at 6th) - detect magic, fear, mirror image, invisibility, levitate. DCs are intelligence-based. - Aligned Strike: A cambion's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. - Alternate Form (Sp): A cambion can assume the form of a specific humanoid-shaped creature (typically a human, drow, elf, aasimar, tiefling, githyanki, githzerai, marrash, or gnoll, but sometimes a goblinoid) as a standard action once per day. This ability functions as an alter self spell, except a cambion may choose the form of a humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or humanoid-shaped outsider, and can assume only the form of that specific creature. A cambion can remain in its humanoid form until it chooses to return to its natural form. - A cambion has the option of gaining outsider hit dice instead of a class levels when leveling up. - Silent Metal (Ex): A cambion has no armor check penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks. - Automatic Languages: Abyssal, Common. Bonus Languages: Celestial, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Infernal - Favored Class: Rogue - Level Adjustment: +3 Marquis and Barons The progeny of demon lords and princes, Marquis and Baron Cambions are more powerful and have the following adjustments. These are in addition to normal Cambion adjustments (except in where noted): - +10 Str, +8 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis (These replace standard Cambion ability score adjustments) - Spell-like ability: Usable a number of times per day equal to character level (At will at 6th) - Charm Person - Level Adjustment: +4
asurademon 06-03-07, 11:11 PM	I would just use the Cambion in the 3.5 Monstrous Manual (its entry is labelled half-fiend, but cambion is a word for half-fiends of humanoid descent), or make a variant cambion with traits that depend upon what type of fiend its fiendish parent was. If you really want to stay true to real world lore than make it a half-succubus (a bigger charisma boost, and not as great of a strength boost as the one in the Monstrous manual, and replace some of its spell-like abilities with ones the succbus has). I don't really understand the point of that variant cambion, the one in the monstrous manual is so much better. A race with a -6 penalty to charisma isn't just not likable, on average they hardly even have a personality, what a crappy race to roleplay (unless you sink a lot of points into charisma). EDIT: ugg, it's polymorph ability says it can take the form of any humanoid or monstrous humanoid, and uses tiefling and aasimar as an example, neither of which are humanoid, though lesser tiefling and aasimar are, another sign that this race was just horribly made (was that mistake in the original entry? I can't remember, I saw it a while ago, if not I don't mean to be offensive or anything, just pointing out an error). If you really want to fix it I suppose you could it a -2 to charisma and a +6 to strength, or if you think that's still too high a strength (and considering how crippling LA is in my experience I don't think so) you could lower its strength further to a +4. I think this adjustment would help to make this race more worthwhile, without really warranting a higher LA. I would never give a playable race more than a -4 charisma. The way I think of it, a race with a -2 charisma may tend to be socially awkward, or just really lack tact in how they deal with things, but they can still have strong personalities despite this. With a -4 a race is really really one that has a hard time getting around among races in which social tact is important, and they probably have a weak personality. I really just think the -6 charisma is too much for a playable race.
Jeriaus 06-03-07, 11:22 PM	where is the Marquis Cambion getting higher lhysical stats then the regular one?
Kazeofwinds 06-04-07, 01:21 AM	I'd give the at-will SLAs as a progression similar to how a half celestial/fiend gets them (though faster, probably having them all by 10HD), simply because a fourth/5th level cambion would be absurdly strong in comparison to the most of the party(admittedly, with crappy hitpoints, and It'd probably level out by like ecl 8) Or replace the level adjustment with like 6 outsider HD(LA above 4 is pretty much unplayable, hitdice are workable IMO espescially outsider ones), They're good, but still inferior to class levels by a bunch. It's still more well-done than the original version, though.
Gadren 06-04-07, 03:23 AM	where is the Marquis Cambion getting higher lhysical stats then the regular one? The marquis cambion stats are supposed to be added on to a normal cambion stats, so I added it on to the normal cambion stats I wrote up. I wrote up the "normal" cambion stats based on the entry they had in the previous stat block instead of the "Cambions as Characters" block which not only had odd adjustments but was lowers on nearly every single attribute than the example cambion should have.
Darkon Slayer 06-04-07, 11:48 AM	Yea, I found those stat adjustments stupid and weird. everyone knows that when you take racial stats from the written up creature, you subtract 11 from odd numbers and 10 from even numbers. How the writer came up with the stat adjustments he put on the Cambion as character I don't have the foggiest.
Gadren 06-04-07, 01:28 PM	I'd give the at-will SLAs as a progression similar to how a half celestial/fiend gets them (though faster, probably having them all by 10HD), simply because a fourth/5th level cambion would be absurdly strong in comparison to the most of the party(admittedly, with crappy hitpoints, and It'd probably level out by like ecl 8) Or replace the level adjustment with like 6 outsider HD(LA above 4 is pretty much unplayable, hitdice are workable IMO espescially outsider ones), They're good, but still inferior to class levels by a bunch. It's still more well-done than the original version, though. I changed this a bit, made it so they can't use them at will until level 6 (ECL 9). EDIT: ugg, it's polymorph ability says it can take the form of any humanoid or monstrous humanoid, and uses tiefling and aasimar as an example, neither of which are humanoid, though lesser tiefling and aasimar are, another sign that this race was just horribly made (was that mistake in the original entry? I can't remember, I saw it a while ago, if not I don't mean to be offensive or anything, just pointing out an error). I changed this too. Maybe what I've written now works better than what they had down.
Gadren 06-20-07, 02:34 AM	Anyone tried using my variant Cambion?