Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GnomeNinja5 10-07-07, 10:25 PM	I was wondering if there is any race with LA 0 that can actually fly right from the get-go? If so, how did they balance it? I am making a race, but I want flight from level 1 and no LA, and none of that gliding becomes flying stuff.
Darth Sephiroth 10-07-07, 10:35 PM	I'd made one race a while back that worked as a +0 fey with perfect flight Avantiar Fairy -12 Str (Minimum 3), +4 Dex, -4 Con, +2 Cha Size: Diminutive Type: Fey Fairies have the Spirit subtype Speed: 10 ft Fly 40 ft (Good): While wearing light armor and carrying no more than a light load a fairy may fly on gossamer wings. A Fairy may take the improved flight feat to improve their fly maneuverability to Perfect. Knockdown: If a Fairy is struck by a critical hit, she is sent 1d4x5 ft in a straight line away from the attacker. The Fairy takes falling damage as if falling double this distance if she hits a solid object while moving this way. Fairies require custom armor (Costing 2x normal for base armor, masterwork/enchantments cost normal) in order to fly while wearing it. If it is not custom armor they recieve double the armors listed ACP. Cold Iron Weakness: Fairies take 50% more damage from Cold Iron weapons or effects that are treated as such. They are also subject to 1 negative weapon should they try to wield a weapon or item made out of cold iron. +2 Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nature), and Spellcraft Fairies use Dexterity instead of Strength for Jump and Climb checks. +8 to all Jump checks Light: Generate light constantly as the spell. Suppressed/resumed as a free action at will. Fairy Dust: 3/day a Fairy may substitute some cast off powder when casting a spell to treat it as if they possessed the material components for the spell. If the Fairy possess' the Eschew Material Components spell she may ignore the spell components up to a cost in GP equal to her HD. Sleep Strike: instead of dealing critical damage on a confirmed critical, a fairy may attempt to cast the spell Sleep as a spell like ability as a caster of her HD. Languages: Common and Sylvan Bonus Languages: Elven, Giant, Goblin, Orc, Draconic, Celestial, Ignan, Aquan, Auran. Favored Class: Healer (Or Druid)
GnomeNinja5 10-07-07, 10:45 PM	Thanks for the race, but I was thinking of a medium or small race with flight, as I want to compare it with the Daytouched race I'm making for my setting.
Jaxgaret 10-07-07, 10:48 PM	I'd made one race a while back that worked as a +0 fey with perfect flight Avantiar Fairy *stats* *snip* That's balanced at LA +0? That seems like a spellcaster's dream.
Darth Sephiroth 10-07-07, 10:49 PM	While it's not quite from 1st level, an Aasimar can pull it off pretty quick with the right feat choices (2 with normal and 1 as Lesser Aasimar).
GnomeNinja5 10-07-07, 10:50 PM	While it's not quite from 1st level, an Aasimar can pull it off pretty quick with the right feat choices (2 with normal and 1 as Lesser Aasimar). Which feats and from where?
Darth Sephiroth 10-08-07, 01:13 AM	I believe their all in the Forgotten Realms books. Two feats are Celestial Heritage and Outsider Wings. The last is Otherworldly. I can't remember which books they're in at the moment, but the Lists archive should be able to help. A Tiefling or Lesser Tiefling could do the same thing with the same result.
kaionon 10-08-07, 01:28 AM	There are no races that can fly from first level, the closest would be raptorians or dragonborn, each of which slowly build up flying aiblities as they gain levels. Simply put, flying from first level is likely quite unbalanced.
calronmoonflower 10-08-07, 03:34 AM	Kobold! They qualify for Draconic Wings and Improved Draconic Wings. You cannot fly until you get the second and are limited for a while, but you can eventually get unlimited flight without a level adjustment.
GnomeNinja5 10-08-07, 09:27 AM	Well then, second question: would a Str and Con penalty balance out flight?
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 09:29 AM	That's balanced at LA +0? That seems like a spellcaster's dream. That was sort of my impression. It's one of those gain everything lose nothing situations as long as you play a sorcerer. Well then, second question: would a Str and Con penalty balance out flight? No. The problem with assigning LA is you have to look at all the ways a race can be used, and assign it on a best case, not a worst case, scenario. The idea is if you give a Str and Con penalty, then no body will play a melee class. It's still just as viable a caster. So a race with flight "balanced" by poor Str and Con is perfect for arcane casting. You're going to dump your Str anyway, and while a good Con is nice, you'll be out of range of most attacks. Note how in terms of classes, none of them gain any real form of flight until about 5th to 6th level. I'm not saying a race with flight needs a +4 LA, but it's going to be tough to create something balanced that can fly at level 1.
war_thog 10-08-07, 10:24 AM	I'd made one race a while back that worked as a +0 fey with perfect flight Avantiar Fairy -12 Str (Minimum 3), +4 Dex, -4 Con, +2 Cha Size: Diminutive Type: Fey Fairies have the Spirit subtype Speed: 10 ft Fly 40 ft (Good): While wearing light armor and carrying no more than a light load a fairy may fly on gossamer wings. A Fairy may take the improved flight feat to improve their fly maneuverability to Perfect. Knockdown: If a Fairy is struck by a critical hit, she is sent 1d4x5 ft in a straight line away from the attacker. The Fairy takes falling damage as if falling double this distance if she hits a solid object while moving this way. Fairies require custom armor (Costing 2x normal for base armor, masterwork/enchantments cost normal) in order to fly while wearing it. If it is not custom armor they recieve double the armors listed ACP. Cold Iron Weakness: Fairies take 50% more damage from Cold Iron weapons or effects that are treated as such. They are also subject to 1 negative weapon should they try to wield a weapon or item made out of cold iron. +2 Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nature), and Spellcraft Fairies use Dexterity instead of Strength for Jump and Climb checks. +8 to all Jump checks Light: Generate light constantly as the spell. Suppressed/resumed as a free action at will. Fairy Dust: 3/day a Fairy may substitute some cast off powder when casting a spell to treat it as if they possessed the material components for the spell. If the Fairy possess' the Eschew Material Components spell she may ignore the spell components up to a cost in GP equal to her HD. Sleep Strike: instead of dealing critical damage on a confirmed critical, a fairy may attempt to cast the spell Sleep as a spell like ability as a caster of her HD. Languages: Common and Sylvan Bonus Languages: Elven, Giant, Goblin, Orc, Draconic, Celestial, Ignan, Aquan, Auran. Favored Class: Healer (Or Druid) What? Thats balanced? Even a fighter gets advantages from using that. You gave it the agile athlete feat for free. Gave it 40ft good flight. Gave it a bonus to spellcasting. *eschew materials 3/day so tahts like..... 1/4 of a feat* Gave it a size and stats which are awesome for casters/rogues. Gave it a total +16 bonus to skills. *a good 3 feats worth there* Gave it an awesome critical ability. Gave it the ability to generate light. And the only bad things are that the stats mean you probably wont be a barbarian playing this. You get knocked around on crits. Random but not necessarily bad. Id like to be knocked away from people criting me, then they cant complete their full attack. Cold Iron Weakness. Yay. Only real negative. Oh 10ft base speeed, woop de doo, we fly. If this class is balanced at LA + 0 then Im a flying monkey. Giving a class negatives which are its dump stats anyway, and then using this to get massive bonuses is stupid. Your faerie will always have 3str. It can barely be overcome in point buy, so no-ones going to waste points on it. So really your starting stat of str 8 gets -5 to 3. Stupid. Having a negative as big as -12 with a minimum of 3 will never actually be neg 12. Its like saying that My "magic class x" has -20 to charisma, so that justifies me giving it +20 to int. This class is not balanced. The negatives are too big to have any effect. They cross the point of noticable effect and keep going. The positives outway the negatives. Go rework it.
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 10:58 AM	One other big that that wasn't touched on was the size; it's diminuative. I've never seen a balanced LA+0 race that wasn't small or medium. This isn't even tiny; it's diminuative! Between the size and the solid Dex adjustment, they'll have no problem connecting with a ranged touch attack (sorcerer or warlock) and they'll have a good AC. An average member of this race (natural Dex of 10 or 11) will have a 16 AC (+2 Dex, +4 size). Of course, about any class you would play with said race is going to have a high priority for Dex, so you can expect to see a natural 14 to 18 put in (depending on point-buy amount or how well you rolled), meaning the AC will be 18 - 20 without spells or armor. As for the cold iron weakness: how often do you see monsters or enemy NPCs using cold iron? I imagine in a game with a PC of this race it might happen a bit more often, but still, it's generally a non-issue. You'll be flying above them anyway. The -12 Str is pretty much a non-issue anyway. You are too weak to really hold anything. As a diminutive creature, your weapons are three steps below a medium creatures. What's a diminutive longsword do for damage? 1d3? What's a greatsword? Maybe 1d6? Coupled with a maximum -2 penalty (assuming a 6 Str with a natural 18), the best you can hope for in melee is 1d6-2 damage. Obvioulsy, you're going to put your lowest score in Str. If you're using a point buy, you leave in the 8, which loses 12 (becoming -4), and then gets raised to the minimum of 3, effectively gaining back 7 points from your "penalty." This race would be an awesome warlock. To keep things simple, I'd just take Eldritch Spear as my 1st invocation, and fly 250 feet above the ground sniping away. Anyone with a composite longbow would still have -4 to hit me due to range, and with light armor, my AC would probalby be about 23. This guy would totally pwn in about 95% of all "normal" situations.
Templario 10-08-07, 11:02 AM	Raptoran! But they can actually fly only after level 10
Dog_O_War 10-08-07, 11:17 AM	Making races that can fly at level one with no LA is a bad decision as either the race will suck, or will be unbalanced. Flight (unlimited) is too unbalanced to be a player thing, at least without a level adjustment. I can offer an LA +1 race, but that is about it. Also, the "raptorians" (or whatever they're called....awful name btw) from races of the wild are akward and too lame to use, which I can understand why you wouldn't want them. I'll link you to an old post of mine about a flying race that you can use. Ignore the fluff if you like - and please and comments on them would be appreciated. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=895436
Jaxgaret 10-08-07, 12:06 PM	What? Thats balanced? My sentiments exactly. A few corrections though: Gave it a bonus to spellcasting. *eschew materials 3/day so tahts like..... 1/4 of a feat* It's actually not 3/day Eschew Materials; it provides a limited Ignore Material Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents) ability 3/day. Gave it an awesome critical ability. Made even better when you remember you can crit on Ray spells etc. You get knocked around on crits. Random but not necessarily bad. Id like to be knocked away from people criting me, then they cant complete their full attack. Oh heck yeah. I read that one as a huge benefit! If this class is balanced at LA + 0 then Im a flying monkey. :rofl: As funny as it would be for War Thog to morph into a flying monkey, I think you're safe. Giving a class negatives which are its dump stats anyway, and then using this to get massive bonuses is stupid. Your faerie will always have 3str. It can barely be overcome in point buy, so no-ones going to waste points on it. So really your starting stat of str 8 gets -5 to 3. Ninja'd and seconded. This class is not balanced. The negatives are too big to have any effect. They cross the point of noticable effect and keep going. The positives outway the negatives. Go rework it. QFT.
InkBlot 10-08-07, 12:57 PM	What if the race could only fly one round at a time? So they have to land before their turn ends, or they'll fall? For example -- Lepidopterans Lepidopterans are exotic humanoids with a pair of large butterfly wings jutting from their backs. They have dark skin and purple hair. Their almond shaped eyes are frequently golden, yellow, or -- rarely -- red. A lepidopteran is thin and long; some are gangly, others graceful. Lepidopterans live nomadic lives following the seasons and the flowering of plants. They don't have any permanent settlements. They don't keep written records. Occasionally the work of a lepidopteran artist or sculptor will be found left behind. They can often be found lounging on sun-warmed rocks. Lepidopterans are often described as lazy, but they would say they are "patient, peace loving, and enjoy a good nap." Lepidopterans eat flowering plants exculsively, and lotus blossoms especially. Lepidopteran culture is based around sharing vivid experiences. Their ability to directly tap into each other's sensory perception allows them to make an art form out of otherwise mundane events, such as bathing or eating. Although they can share this art with beings outside their own race, they rarely do; they believe that members of other races may become addicted to living lepidopteran lives vicariously. Rajiv and Yuri are common lepidopteran names. Lepidopterans don't typically have surnames, due to their lack of record keeping. • -2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom. Lepidopterans are thin, light, and frail. They have mercurial personalities and are easily distracted. • Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Lepidopteran base land speed is 20 feet, and their fly speed is 30 (clumsy) (but see below). • Flutter: A lepidopteran can flit and fly for short periods of time by fluttering it's wings. A lepidopteran must begin and end it's turn with solid footing in order to fly. If she has not landed by the end of her turn, a lepidopteran will fall. • Naturally Psionic: Lepidopterans start with 2 bonus power points at 1st level. Lepidopterans are psionic creatures. They can gain psionic focus and take psionic feats. • Psionics: Lepidopterans have the uncanny ability to always know where they are, and to share their senses with others. Lepidopterans with a Charisma of at least 11 can use their power points to manifest know location and direction and sense link. A lepidopteran can experience any sense via sense link, instead of only sight, hearing, taste, or smell. Lepidopterans have a manifester level equal to 1/2 their class levels, their powers are Charisma based, and they receive bonus power points for a high Charisma score. • Low-Light Vision: A lepidopteran can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. • Automatic Languages: Common and Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Elven. • Favored Class: Ranger. A multiclass lepidopteran’s ranger class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
Mr_Teapot 10-08-07, 03:38 PM	The Hengeyokai from Oriental Adventures are LA +0 according to the Dragon magazine update, and the sparrow hengeyokai can fly at 1st level.
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 03:49 PM	The Hengeyokai from Oriental Adventures are LA +0 according to the Dragon magazine update, and the sparrow hengeyokai can fly at 1st level. I guess I'd have to see it, but it wouldn't be the first time something official was published that's broken. I'm curious what they changed since OA, because they were LA+1 IIRC.
GnomeNinja5 10-08-07, 05:34 PM	Maybe fly 1/day for 1 round (or 1 minute) per Character Level? That could probably be easily balanced out for LA 0 still, couldn't it?
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 06:17 PM	Maybe fly 1/day for 1 round (or 1 minute) per Character Level? That could probably be easily balanced out for LA 0 still, couldn't it? Possibly. I prefer Inkblot's idea of single round flight. That way, you can't cover any large expanses (beyond a double move, or quadruple move on a sprint) that a PC without flight couldn't. Also, if you have flight that lasts one minute, that is ususally sufficiently long to keep you safe during a low-level combat. If it's limited to a single round, you have to come back down and face the opponents (unless you get on a ledge ;)). I think Inkblot's suggestion will get you on the right track.
GnomeNinja5 10-08-07, 06:27 PM	Possibly. I prefer Inkblot's idea of single round flight. That way, you can't cover any large expanses (beyond a double move, or quadruple move on a sprint) that a PC without flight couldn't. Also, if you have flight that lasts one minute, that is ususally sufficiently long to keep you safe during a low-level combat. If it's limited to a single round, you have to come back down and face the opponents (unless you get on a ledge ;)). I think Inkblot's suggestion will get you on the right track. I think I'll do 1/day for 1 round per character level (the race has small wings that it can make larger and flightworthy, but not without great effort). I can't quite see the single-round flight, as I don't want the flying to be a great effort, just limited. Plus it'll be simple to balance out, and they can't avoid too many obstacles. Basically, it's the new fly spell as a spell like ability 1/day.
HCL 10-08-07, 07:18 PM	I am seeing the "Fae Thief" from Lords Of Magic: I would go with a -2 to 4 str +2 to 4 dex -2 to 4 con small creature maybe with +2 to climb, jump, spot favored class rogue... how about the fly rating/speed is based on the character's dexterity, strength or character level? and how about sorcerer/wizard/whatever noncore arcane/psionics class being disabled?
war_thog 10-08-07, 07:18 PM	Why are you so insistent on being able to fly at low level? You can't do it for a very good reason. Below level 5 *or was it 6 when raptorans can do it?* Being able to fly is too powerful. Even after that it is limited. Flying at level 1 = auto succeed many problems the DM can throw at you *gotta love those simple pit traps* Make it really easy for you to kill and survive in many encounters. Just bite the bullet and play a character which is going to be challenged at low level. You dont need that kind of power. If you really wanted a super powerful character that shouldnt exist then take a raptoran dragonborn. Wings + flame breath/mind powers for free! *Im pretty sure it works that way as base creature loses everything except stats and movememnt modes*
GnomeNinja5 10-08-07, 08:05 PM	Below level 5 *or was it 6 when raptorans can do it?* Level 5 for raptorans and level 6 for some dragonborns. Flying at level 1 = auto succeed many problems the DM can throw at you *gotta love those simple pit traps* Make it really easy for you to kill and survive in many encounters. But not if you can't fly as an immediate action... you'll still hit the pit traps by walking. If you fly constantly, you get other traps, and if you can't fly all the time, like with mine or inkBlot's idea, you'll still walk a lot.
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 08:39 PM	I am seeing the "Fae Thief" from Lords Of Magic: I would go with a -2 to 4 str +2 to 4 dex -2 to 4 con small creature maybe with +2 to climb, jump, spot favored class rogue... how about the fly rating/speed is based on the character's dexterity, strength or character level? As long as the race is getting flight, I'd avoid a +4 to any stat. I'd probably try to get a total of about -2 to -4 total, and I'd avoid any mental stat boosts. Quite simply, I'd consider the following: -2 Str or -2 Con: Simple, no bonuses, just penalties. Helps balance out the flight. -2 Str and -2 Con: I would take this option depending on how "powerful" the particular flight ability is. +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Con: I would do this if I were giving a bonus. +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis: This gives them an elf-like feel, and you can throw the -2 Wis in to represent them being naive or aloof. and how about sorcerer/wizard/whatever noncore arcane/psionics class being disabled? I wouldn't. It's too contrived of a limitation. Consider simply limiting the flight is to only allow it on a full-round action (for a double move). That way they can't fly and attack or cast.
BaseDeltaZero 10-08-07, 08:58 PM	The only real way to balance flight at 1st level is to make it otherwise suck. For instance, a race I designed for my alternate rules set (long story) that can fly has something like -6 STR, -4 CON. They're also Medium but can only weild small weapons, can only fly with light loads, and this is in a future setting where everyone has ranged weapons coming out of their ears.
Novem 10-08-07, 09:18 PM	I'll make one here for you: Trekkie Medium Size +2 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Dex- Flying easily strengthens chest muscles, but Trekkies are ungainly and quite ugly, as well as weak of personality Base Land Speed: 20 ft- Trekkies are slow on foot Fly Speed 30 (Clumsy)- Trekkies have poorly developed flight Natural Attacks: 2 Wings, 1d3 Bludgeoning damage- Trekkie wings make serviceable weapons Flight Exhaustion (Ex): Flying for an extended time is quite draining. A Trekkie cannot fly more rounds than his Constitution bonus + his racial HD. Clawed Wing: A Trekkie cannot fly while holding items in their hands, and cannot every fly if wearing anything more than a Light load. Learnable Languages: Draconic, Auran, Celestial LA: +0 Favored Class: Ranger How's that for balance?
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 09:26 PM	The only real way to balance flight at 1st level is to make it otherwise suck. For instance, a race I designed for my alternate rules set (long story) that can fly has something like -6 STR, -4 CON. They're also Medium but can only weild small weapons, can only fly with light loads, and this is in a future setting where everyone has ranged weapons coming out of their ears. Still not balanced. You play an arcane caster, where Str is a dump stat anyway. You only have d4 hit dice, so while a good Con is nice, it's not esentail (esepscially with flight). If you can fly, you can stay out of range of a lot of targets. These penalties don't make the race suck, but rather limit its scope. Nobody will play melee types, everybody will play arcane casters. This is akin to balancing +6 in X stat with -6 in Y stat (or even -8 or 10). The thing is that the bonus is just plain and simple too good for low level play. Any penalty you assign to "balance" it will be masked by a clever choice in class. Again, this merely limits the races scope, it doesn't weaken it.
Captain_Kobold 10-08-07, 09:31 PM	How about a Swiftwing Shifter? Fairly slow flight speed and limited to only usable whilst shifting. Its LA 0. The Swiftwing shifter trait is found in Races of Eberron.
GnomeNinja5 10-08-07, 10:45 PM	Daytouched (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=936194). Visit the race about which I asked this question! Critique as much as you feel is needed!
Jaxgaret 10-09-07, 12:55 AM	How about a Swiftwing Shifter? Fairly slow flight speed and limited to only usable whilst shifting. Its LA 0. The Swiftwing shifter trait is found in Races of Eberron. Hey, good catch. Flying at LA +0! Limited, of course, but it's honest to goodness Flight.
Mr_Teapot 10-09-07, 08:49 AM	I guess I'd have to see it, but it wouldn't be the first time something official was published that's broken. I'm curious what they changed since OA, because they were LA+1 IIRC. The Hengeyokai's type changed from the obsolete shapechanger type to humanoid (shapechanger), meaning they're subject to charm person, hold person, etc and can't alter self into things like mimics.
RobbyPants 10-09-07, 10:38 AM	The Hengeyokai's type changed from the obsolete shapechanger type to humanoid (shapechanger), meaning they're subject to charm person, hold person, etc and can't alter self into things like mimics. That makes sense.
Legdiwena 10-15-07, 04:34 PM	Flight is +1 to LA, right?
calronmoonflower 10-16-07, 01:57 AM	Flight is +1 to LA, right? It depends on the maneuverability. I believe anything above poor is worth +2.
DreamerInsane 10-16-07, 02:53 PM	A Sparrow or Crane Hengeyokai has, in hybrid form, 20ft (average). LA +0, no Raptoran-style waiting.
Finfreeze 10-16-07, 02:54 PM	Eh, it's only a big deal because they put fly as a 3rd level spell. If it were a first level spell, nobody would really care about natural flight unless it was faster or more mobile than magical flight. Nay, but fly is stronger than Magic Missile they say! I feel that average maneuverability flight (or worse) with unexceptional speed (~60' tops) is not equal to a LA. It's outclassed the moment a spellcaster can cast fly and is a total bother to use to any positive effect in close quarters. Good or better maneuverability and good speed is something worth an LA. Just not a particularly high one. Nobody cares about a Janni's flight, really.
Khadmus 10-16-07, 03:08 PM	What would 5' clumsy flight be equivalent to?
Legdiwena 10-16-07, 03:16 PM	A drunk dwarf in full plate trying to swim.
RobbyPants 10-16-07, 03:38 PM	Flight is +1 to LA, right? It's not so much that flight itself is worth +1 or +2 LA, but rather that the designers seem to want to put it off until about 5th level. So what you end up with is a race with flight and some other abilities to (hopefully) justify taking the LA.
Khadmus 10-17-07, 06:42 PM	A drunk dwarf in full plate trying to swim. I'm talking about in terms of LA.
sigma999 10-17-07, 07:52 PM	Gnome (or other Small race) Arcane caster (or anyone with Reduce Person) + Reduce Person + flying familiar of any kind or even a summoned one And it's seriously not 'unbalanced' to fly at level 1, just that published encounters have been set up with that expectation. It's time to break it.
HCL 10-17-07, 08:36 PM	yeah seriously sucks to published adventures Fae: Small Humanoid (elf) -2 str +2 dex -4 con 40' fly speed (average) 15(?) foot land small size +2 on move silently checks Favored class: rogue Fae are cousins of the elves created by the djinni long ago. They are small, frail, and light. Their wingspan is roughly 10 feet, most have wings similar to butterflies, though some have more birdlike or batlike wings. They live among elves, cloud giants, and storm giants, often in nests high in the trees or on mountainsides. War Eagle: Small Magical beast +4 Dex -2 int 80' Fly Speed (average), 10' land speed Natural Weapons: 2 talons 1d6, bite 1d6 War eagles need special armor (I forgot the exact words Im looking for with this) War eagles can only use light weapons and weapons that are attached to their beak or talons (such as a punching dagger). +8 on spot checks Favored Class: Fighter The war eagle was originally created by cloud giant wizards during a bloody civil war. War eagles were designed to counter fae, dragons, and elven archers by virtue of their speed.
RobbyPants 10-17-07, 10:58 PM	Fae: Small Humanoid (elf) -2 str +2 dex -4 con 40' fly speed (average) 15(?) foot land small size +2 on move silently checks Favored class: rogue Fae are cousins of the elves created by the djinni long ago. They are small, frail, and light. Their wingspan is roughly 10 feet, most have wings similar to butterflies, though some have more birdlike or batlike wings. They live among elves, cloud giants, and storm giants, often in nests high in the trees or on mountainsides. The problem is that a race with -4 Con really just beins to become unplayable. It's too tough to ever simply dump Con as a stat (which typically happens to a -4 Stat). Even still, this is a pretty potent race for a rogue who specializes in ranged combat, further supported by the Str and Con penalty. With these penalties, it's in your best interest to stay out of melee, and the Dex bonus only helps. Once you get the Fly-by Attack feat, most of your problems will be solved in a "typical" encounter. Obviously, there will be times when average maneuverability flight won't work very well, but most of the time, it will be a serious advantage. I've really yet to see a LA +0 flying race that's had the flying "balanced" by any penalties. I think about the best you can hope for is limited gliding and/or Jump check bonuses that eventually progress to flight at 5th or 6th level. Also, what's the justification on a land speed other than 20? War Eagle: Small Magical beast +4 Dex -2 int 80' Fly Speed (average), 10' land speed Natural Weapons: 2 talons 1d6, bite 1d6 War eagles need special armor (I forgot the exact words Im looking for with this) War eagles can only use light weapons and weapons that are attached to their beak or talons (such as a punching dagger). +8 on spot checks Favored Class: Fighter The war eagle was originally created by cloud giant wizards during a bloody civil war. War eagles were designed to counter fae, dragons, and elven archers by virtue of their speed. Do these guys have hands? It seems implied that they don't, but it's not stated. Not having hands is actually a serious limitation.
HCL 10-18-07, 09:04 AM	Well they are magical beasts and their talons are actually more like clawed hands. So they can grab stuff and manipulate it (so they could open up a bottle or write) but it would be impossible for them to fight with longswords for example as it would throw them off balance, they would be relegated to using light weapons,
RobbyPants 10-18-07, 06:36 PM	Well they are magical beasts and their talons are actually more like clawed hands. So they can grab stuff and manipulate it (so they could open up a bottle or write) but it would be impossible for them to fight with longswords for example as it would throw them off balance, they would be relegated to using light weapons, What about ranged weapons? I'm assuming things like bows wouldn't work?
Finfreeze 10-18-07, 07:09 PM	FLYAN RAEC +4 skill points at first level, +1 skill point at each additional level. Humanoid (FLYAN RAEC). Medium size. Base land speed 30'. Base fly speed 30' (average maneuverability). Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Any. 9 -2 Int, -2 Wis, +2 Cha. Humanoid (9). Small size. Base land speed 20'. Fly speed 20' (good maneuverability). Low-light vision. Spell-like Ability: Ray of Frost at will. Cold Resistance 5. Fire Vulnerability. Disease Resistance: +2 racial saving throw bonus vs. disease. Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Any. RAVENMAN Medium size. Humanoid (beastman) Base land speed 30'. Fly speed 30' (average maneuverability). Low-Light Vision. Naturally Psionic: A ravenman gains +1 Power Point at first level and +1 PP every even level thereafter. +4 racial bonus on sleight of hand checks. +2 racial bonus on listen and spot checks. Bonus Power: Raven Morph. Talons: A ravenman can choose to deal piercing or slashing damage with its unarmed strikes instead of its usual bludgeoning damage. This ability does not confer proficiency with unarmed strikes. A ravenman's unarmed strikes count as claw or talon attacks for the purposes of diving. Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Any. NEW FEAT: Fly in the Sky [GENERAL] Benefit: You gain a fly speed equal to 30' if you are medium size or larger or 20' if you are small or smaller (average maneuverability). Creatures with four or more legs or swim speeds gain an additional +20' bonus to this flight speed. If you already have natural flight with worse speed and/or maneuverability, your flight speed increases to the previously listed values and/or your maneuverability increases to average. If your original maneuverability or speed is greater than these values, it remains unchanged. If both are greater, then you shouldn't be taking this feat in the first place, silly! NEW FEAT: Fly in the Sky Faster [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Flight speed. Benefit: Your speed while flying is increased by 10 feet. Woo. Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. NEW FEAT: Improved Maneuverability [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Flight speed. Benefit: Your maneuverability while flying increases by one step, to a maximum of perfect. Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. NEW FEAT: Nothing is Holding Her Up [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Fly Speed (Good Maneuverability) Benefit: You can fly while carrying a medium or heavy load, albeit at reduced speeds typical of a creature who is burdened. In addition, you don't stall if you are paralyzed, knocked unconscious, or otherwise rendered incapable of controlling your flight. NEW POWER: Flying Around L1 blah blah blah Casting Time: Standard Action Range: Short Target: 1 living creature Duration: 1 min. This power grants the target a flight speed equal to its land speed (good maneuverability). The target won't stall when it is paralyzed or otherwise incapable of controlling its flight. If it already has a flight speed, the target gains a +20' enhancement bonus on its flight speed, and its maneuverability becomes good if it is lower than good or perfect if its maneuverability is already good. Should the power duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a power effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the power is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field. Augment: You can augment this power in the following ways. 1. Per +2 PP: This power affects one more creature. 2. Per +4 PP: Enhancement bonus on flight speed increases by 20'. 3. +6 PP: Perfect Maneuverability. 4. +6 PP: Swift Action. In addition, for every additional power point used to achieve these effects, this power has a 1 minute longer duration. NEW POWER: Raven Morph L1 blahblahblah Casting Time: Move Action Target: Self Duration: 2 rounds Your body transforms into that of a giant raven. In raven form, you gain a +4 transformation bonus to Str and Dex. In addition, you gain a +20' transformation bonus to your flight speed and your mobility increases by one step. All equipment melds with your body, but does not become unusable (because that would be a total pain to bother with, especially with wondrous items and rings). Ravens do not have any hands with which to use most weapons, but they can still use gauntlets just fine. You can remain in raven form once the power has ended, but there are consequences. On the round after the spell's duration has ended, you can use a move action to revert to your normal form and suffer no additional consequences. If you do not, you take 1d8 cumulative damage at the end of the round every round until you revert. You may prematurely end this power and revert to humanoid form by using a move action. Augment: You can augment this power in this following ways: 1. Per +4 PP: +2 Str and Dex. 2. Per +4 PP: +20' flight speed, perfect mobility. 3. +6 PP: Swift Action to change to raven form and back to humanoid form. 4. +6 PP: Your size increases by one step. In addition, every PP used to achieve the listed effects also increases the duration by 2 rounds. Special: This power is exclusive to ravenmen. All ravenmen know this ability. It cannot be learned by any other means. Should a ravenman be reincarnated into another race, it loses this power until it becomes a ravenman again. Just some thoughts. If you get the references, you get a virtual hearty handshake and a virtual pat on the back.
sigma999 10-19-07, 07:57 AM	Ravenmorph could be many things, but at the moment only that old AD&D Ravenloft race comes to mind. That, and some weird old Jim Henson production with a bird-shifter evil henchman in it... name of that show or movie is lost to me now...
war_thog 10-20-07, 06:16 AM	Be careful with **** like that! Some noob may take that seriosuly and actually consider it balanced.
Taldren Li 12-09-07, 01:22 AM	There are a few anthropomorphic animals that can fly and have lvl adj. +0. I don't have the book with me, but I know that the anthropomorphic bat can fly and has no lvl adj.
Calium 12-09-07, 01:32 AM	Use savage species monster progression with pixie's or another monster that can fly. You should be set with that. Not positive though never worked with their progression chart there (lazy and just pick the right lvl to start normally).
sigma999 12-09-07, 11:24 PM	Pixies aren't balanced as PCs in the least. I'm trying to fix that over on the Feybook project, but the best I can come up with is "while a Sprite is flying, they can only take move actions" Otherwise, you have a spellcasting bomber/infiltrator the size of your head.
Sir_Wolfgar 12-10-07, 02:32 AM	I'll make one here for you: Clawed Wing: A Trekkie cannot fly while holding items in their hands, and cannot every fly if wearing anything more than a Light load. Well, unless I'm mistaken, that would leave out material components and divine focuses. Kinda ruins the "I'm a flying sorcerer" advantage. Hey, if you wanna have a race with flight and no level adjustment, just do it. Make sure your players understand what you are giving them. Heck, it's not like you are going to publish this thing and have random, anonymous people be mad at you for putting out something that's "unbalanced."
Finfreeze 12-10-07, 08:15 AM	I'd imagine that keeping low-level flight balanced would depend on giving characters of other races options to either gain flight or a similar power in some way—by spell, feat, mount, or class feature—and/or ways to combat flight. Ranged attacks, tight spaces, techniques and equipment to tether opponents to the ground, more ways to force a crash landing (like having trip attacks cause flyers to stall). I'd also like to see flight categories be simplified to Perfect, Average, and Poor for the most part. Good's pretty much Perfect maneuverability in most cases, anyway.
DreamerInsane 12-10-07, 08:50 AM	Yep, making ranged attacks a little more prominent and, for example, making Spider Climb effects more widespread could perhaps work. Doesn't take away the awesomeness of being able to fly, but gives enemies options to deal with the flying PC and other PC's the ability to easily climb to hard-to-reach places.
teamfireyleader 12-10-07, 04:54 PM	May i suggest this? Fey Tiny -4 con + 2 Cha -2 wis + 2 str (weak of body and mind they are beutiful and have to fight off a lot of predators). 10ft land 30ft(good) fly Self distracting. Always have to make a concentration (dc 15+spell/power level) check to cast any spell or power or lose it. Light as spell permanent on wings. Hiding - 5 penalty unless they make a concentration/autohypnosis check dc 15 Move silently ditto LA 0? for all the penalties?
AtsuiShoto 12-10-07, 08:28 PM	A tiny flying creature as strong as a half-orc, with no Dex bonus. I'm afraid I don't see how that works AT ALL.
Finfreeze 12-10-07, 11:40 PM	A tiny flying creature as strong as a half-orc, with no Dex bonus. I'm afraid I don't see how that works AT ALL. The ability scores don't tell the whole story. The size penalty actually outweighs the strength bonus in practically all situations. For special attacks such as grappling, this race takes a net -7 penalty (-8 for being tiny, +1 for racial strength). A tiny greatsword deals 1d8 damage. On the other hand, a size drop doesn't affect your reflex or initiative at all...