Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_great_mighty_nerd 04-22-07, 12:30 AM	no name for it yet, just trying to make balanced LA 0 race that flies: small size -2 con fly speed 30 ft. clumsy +8 to jump (flap wings) +2 to spot and search (hawk eyes) I might add fluff after it gets evened out ability-wise.
Nghtpunisher 04-22-07, 12:40 AM	you could give it a +4 dex and a -3 Str and a -1 con being a flight race id understand those stats and the flight should be better than clumsy dont you think maybe poor? or bad i dont know the flight statistics well but i know clumsy means they fly and take some like 6 rounds to turn around dont they ?
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-22-07, 01:52 AM	you could give it a +4 dex and a -3 Str and a -1 con being a flight race id understand those stats and the flight should be better than clumsy dont you think maybe poor? or bad i dont know the flight statistics well but i know clumsy means they fly and take some like 6 rounds to turn around dont they ? No, those are odd ability modifiers and horribly min-maxxed. We don't do that around here. :P Flight is a powerful ability. The DMG specifically states this. At low levels it allows a PC to surmount many traditional obstacles, and it grants a solid advantage in combat. The raptoran race from Races of the Wild gets flight gradually as one of their few racial features. It starts as the ability to break a fall, improves to flight for short distances, then finally becomes full flight. One balancing factor to flight, something that Incarnum uses for a soulmeld accessible at level 1 and psionics uses for a feat that grants a climb speed, is to only allow them to fly provided they start and end their move action on a solid surface. This makes it a decent maneuverability power, but doesn't lead to nearly as many problems as actual flying. Improving racial abilities with feats is quite common now, and as long as they don't get the potential true flight until level 5, you should be able to use a nerf like this to get a LA +0 race. Keep in mind, fly is a level 3 spell.
Nghtpunisher 04-22-07, 02:13 AM	:P hey im not perfect. but i have seen flight creatures with a +1 b4 and they had some wierd stats ill find then and post thier name if i find em. it was only IMO and good or bad it was only IMO. well i wont try to help create flying races i think i stick to finding info for others and let you all create.:D
sigma999 04-22-07, 02:30 AM	Hmmm you must keep in mind that even with "Clumsy" motion the critter may fly pretty much as long as they are conscious. Some find that 'unbalancing' but personally I say, Druid, man, Druid... Wildshape. Nuff said. Or a Halfling Wizard with Reduce and a crow familiar. Jeez.. wish people would read more... :P I say, looks fine, but I'd make the base flight speed low like 10 and increase as they level up or add more of something like STR or DEX, +5 feet base movement per +1 of a certain ability score to a specific maximum such as, say, 60? Looks odd but I'm experimenting with that kind of thing. Near-unlimited flight at levels lower than 5 is possible and quite common. Look around, insects, birds, bats, they can't possibly more than a single HP up to 2 HD yet they do it almost exclusively. A freakin Lantern Archon GREATER TELEPORTS AT WILL! The expectations for level-appropriate encounters in D&D should not account for motion capabilities!
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-22-07, 02:53 AM	Near-unlimited flight at levels lower than 5 is possible and quite common. Look around, insects, birds, bats, they can't possibly more than a single HP up to 2 HD yet they do it almost exclusively. A freakin Lantern Archon GREATER TELEPORTS AT WILL! The expectations for level-appropriate encounters in D&D should not account for motion capabilities! Yeah, but Challenge Rating and Effective Level are very different. None of the creatures you mentioned have listed Level Adjustment. You have to consider game balance.
SunTzuWarmaster 04-22-07, 10:36 AM	Look at the Raptorian and adjust it to your flavor, it is well balanced.
Lotus Crane 04-22-07, 10:45 AM	Indeed, as some have already mentioned, the raptoran from Races of the Wild is the prime example of how to do this. It's a LA 0 race with flight, except that they can't actually fly until they have 5 HD (typically from class levels) first. The basic idea is that it's not so much that races with certain abilities need a specific minimum LA, but rather that those abilities shouldn't be gained before a specific minimum ECL. For example, because the average party gains access to the fly spell at 5th level, natural flight no longer provides the unfair advantage it did at 1st-4th level.
the_great_mighty_nerd 04-22-07, 02:40 PM	I dont want a raptoran with different flavor, how about fly speed equal to 10+5 per point of str bonus, manuverability equal to dex mod: 0-1=clumsy, 2-3=poor, 4-5=average, 6-7=good, 7+=perfect
stuporhero93 04-22-07, 03:03 PM	That sounds pretty good. Maybe you could say that until a certain amount of HD, said creature can only take flight after 2 consecutive full-turn move actions. This would prevent him from just taking off in battle, giving the flight ability less power in an encounter.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-22-07, 03:05 PM	I dont want a raptoran with different flavor, how about fly speed equal to 10+5 per point of str bonus, manuverability equal to dex mod: 0-1=clumsy, 2-3=poor, 4-5=average, 6-7=good, 7+=perfect With good ability scores, such a character would still be able to fly, allowing him to overcome obstacles such as large pits, water hazards, and pressure traps. The winged template from Savage Species does almost exactly what you're describing, and it has a level adjustment.
the_great_mighty_nerd 04-22-07, 03:37 PM	winged template has much higher speed for an average character and allows perfect manuverability @ 17 dex instead of 24 and gives +4 dex to help out so this is less powerful. I think I'll make it rounds of flight equal to x + con modifier after which you can glide, going down 5 or ten ft per round and forward at your speed-5 ft per round, maneuverability drops by 2 steps while gliding. you must rest for two rounds for each one round of flight before you can fly again
Necromas 04-22-07, 03:51 PM	no name for it yet, just trying to make balanced LA 0 race that flies: small size -2 con fly speed 30 ft. clumsy +8 to jump (flap wings) +2 to spot and search (hawk eyes) I might add fluff after it gets evened out ability-wise. I'm pretty sure flight capable wings grant you a +20 bonus on jump checks already.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-22-07, 03:53 PM	I'm pretty sure flight capable wings grant you a +20 bonus on jump checks already. No, they don't. They just make the Jump skill useless (outside of tanglefoot bags).
Necromas 04-22-07, 03:59 PM	No, they don't. They just make the Jump skill useless (outside of tanglefoot bags). Hm, well, at least I know if you take the dragon wings feat from RotD you get +20 to jump checks.
the_great_mighty_nerd 04-22-07, 04:42 PM	what if his hands are attached to his wings so he cant fly and hold things at the same time?
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-22-07, 04:45 PM	what if his hands are attached to his wings so he cant fly and hold things at the same time? I've seen this done before. It takes the combat element out of it, but still makes it very useful out of combat and for running away.
RobbyPants 04-22-07, 04:50 PM	winged template has much higher speed for an average character and allows perfect manuverability @ 17 dex instead of 24 and gives +4 dex to help out so this is less powerful. It's not so much the speed or maneuverability of flight that gives it a LA, but rather the fact that it is flight. Even with clumsy 10ft speed, a level 1 character could avoid most level-appropriate challenges. All they need to do is fly in large circles, pelting the critters with ranged attacks. For the first four levels or so, a creature with flight will have a pretty hefty advantage over the rest of the party. What you need at these lower levels is things like gliding, which has some similar benifits, but is harder to use.