Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thorofasgard13 01-27-08, 10:22 AM	The Force-Souled Dragon-Born are a unique type of creature born of the pairing of a Dragon parent which uses force energy, and a parent that is a living incorporeal creature. Because of the unique intermingling of the incorporeal and force energies they have many traits of a half-dragon while maintaining the incorporeal nature of one parent. +2 DEX +2 CON +4 CHA +2 INT Speed: flight 30ft (perfect maneuverability) Qualities: Incorporeal traits, Dragon type (half-dragon) Supernatural abilities: Breath weapon corresponding to their draconic parent(as half-dragon). Deflection bonus to AC equal to their charisma modifier (minimum +1). LA: +3 Favored Class: Sorceror/Warlock or Psion (if parent is a Gem Dragon). Ok so I adjusted the stats a little and changed the maneuverability
fenderbassman2009 01-27-08, 02:14 PM	i like it but you could probably bring down the LA a lot if u kill some of the ability bonuses you have and/or and penalties. if you were interested in doin that anyways. also incorporeals usually have perfect maneuverability for what its worth. its good though, a really interesting and unique combo.
thorofasgard13 01-27-08, 04:20 PM	I adjusted a few things. Tell me what you think.
fenderbassman2009 01-27-08, 04:56 PM	thats better the only thing i see is that its kinda broken how u have a +4 cha bonus and the ac bonus with charisma. you should probably bring it down or make the ac bonus correspond with something other than charisma that u arent modifying alot. then this would definately be a solid +2 LA template
thorofasgard13 01-27-08, 05:50 PM	thats better the only thing i see is that its kinda broken how u have a +4 cha bonus and the ac bonus with charisma. you should probably bring it down or make the ac bonus correspond with something other than charisma that u arent modifying alot. then this would definately be a solid +2 LA template But incorporeal creatures always have a deflection bonus equal to their charisma modifier. They also almost always get a charisma bonus to help with that.
Devigod 01-27-08, 06:29 PM	Ummm, didn't the dragons that used force as a breath weapon also use psionics instead of spells? You should change the favored class to psion. Unless you aren't looking at gem dragons, which are the only force dragons I know of... As for LA, if they're incorporeal, shouldn't they have a higher LA? This is a ghost with special abilities changed to stat buffs, which are better. A ghost has a LA of +5, I think you should adjust yours a bit. And then I was just wondering if this was a creature or a template. I really like the concept though. Nice. Hope you continue to work on it.
Captain_Kobold 01-27-08, 09:04 PM	You may want to specify if you recieve all of the Incorporeal subtype's traits, or if you are going to limit them. Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature. An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus). An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see. Your stats without the incorporeal traits are around a weak +2 LA. However I think DR infinity/magic, 50% immunity to most spells, 50% permanent miss chance to almost all attacks, ability to walk through walls, all melee attacks made as touch attacks, and +infinity bonus to move silently would change the LA somewhat. Hmm? :eek: Oh. And free weapon finesse feat.
thorofasgard13 01-27-08, 10:38 PM	Ummm, didn't the dragons that used force as a breath weapon also use psionics instead of spells? You should change the favored class to psion. Unless you aren't looking at gem dragons, which are the only force dragons I know of... As for LA, if they're incorporeal, shouldn't they have a higher LA? This is a ghost with special abilities changed to stat buffs, which are better. A ghost has a LA of +5, I think you should adjust yours a bit. And then I was just wondering if this was a creature or a template. I really like the concept though. Nice. Hope you continue to work on it. It is a template, that can become a stand alone race. I was mainly thinking of the Tarterian, Radiant, Ethereal, and Force dragons. Originally I was saying +3, as the bonuses amount to a +1 and the other +2 for incorporeal as that is what it is listed as in savage species under the ritual of transfiguration.
thorofasgard13 01-28-08, 02:52 PM	Does anyone else have any critiques?
LunarWolfPrime 01-29-08, 09:31 AM	BW damge ?????????
thorofasgard13 01-29-08, 10:13 AM	BW damge ????????? same as the half-dragon 6d8 force damage of the type corresponding to the dragon parent; either 60ft line or 30ft cone.
narack 01-29-08, 12:12 PM	It's incorporeal it should get at least LA +4 and with those +Stat it would worth +1. Ghost have +5 it's should at least be +5
thorofasgard13 01-29-08, 01:22 PM	It's incorporeal it should get at least LA +4 and with those +Stat it would worth +1. Ghost have +5 it's should at least be +5 Incorporeal is only a +2 as the savage species book says, and those stats are very similar to most +1 LA creatures. Ghosts are almost impossible to kill, have 9 powerful special abilities, stat bonus, incorporeality, d12's for hp, undead immunities, racial skill bonuses +. all I have is a 1/day breath weapon, some minor stat bonuses and incorporeality.
Devigod 01-29-08, 04:30 PM	Well, the LA +1 races that have those stats also have racial hit dice. A plain LA+1 stat race has about 2 mental stat bonuses, or +2 to one mental stat, +2 to one physical stat and -2 to one mental stat. Refer to Planetouched: Aasimar or tiefling for a good idea of the stats measured for LA+1. It's tougher to make templates cuz they don't gain racial hit dice. The LA+1 races with those buffs have additional hit dice which are added to LA to get an effective minimum ECL. (Effective character level) The stat bonuses are a little more than minor. You may already know this, of course, but I was just spelling it out in case you didn't, +3 or +4 sounds about right to me, but with incorporeality, you can never be too sure. I would be cautious before allowing a player to use this, as the ability to move through stuff and ignore most bands of orc raiders with uber stealth/near untouchability can be abused.
Captain_Kobold 01-29-08, 05:11 PM	Incorporeal is only a +2 as the savage species book says, Has anyone got a 3.5 source to check if this is still true? and those stats are very similar to most +1 LA creatures. Hmmm. What other LA+1 creatures have a total of +10 stat bonuses? Ghosts are almost impossible to kill, have 9 powerful special abilities, Only 3 - 5 actually. And that is including the "almost impossible to kill" power that would give an ECL 10 ghost, a 50% chance to eventually restore itself after being destroyed. Even though your hit dice change to d12s, you lose any con bonus you had. This may or may not be an advantage. Remember you are also automatically destroyed as soon as you hit 0 hp. You also have a nasty tendency to get turned or rebuked by any cleric with a level similar to your ECL. I think a big question before determining the final LA would be to check with your DM as to whether he would allow you Ghost touch weaponry. That would make a large difference in power level. Also, I know that force effects when cast from the material plane will affect incorporeal creatures. Can anyone recall whether the opposite is true?
thorofasgard13 01-29-08, 09:42 PM	I have never seen any errata that changed the LA for incorporeal. Hmmm. What other LA+1 creatures have a total of +10 stat bonuses? Very true, that would be +2, I'll fix that to a +6 like the draconic template. Only 3 - 5 actually. And that is including the "almost impossible to kill" power that would give an ECL 10 ghost, a 50% chance to eventually restore itself after being destroyed. I exaggerated a little on the number lol, my group is currently at higher level so this is more like a 100%. But I get the point how this can skew a little powerful at lower levels. I think a big question before determining the final LA would be to check with your DM as to whether he would allow you Ghost touch weaponry. That would make a large difference in power level. We are allowed ghost touch weapons, but compared to spells that doesn't really amount to much. It's for a full caster. Also, I know that force effects when cast from the material plane will affect incorporeal creatures. Can anyone recall whether the opposite is true? Force spells always affect even creatures on the ethereal plane. Incorporeal creatures spells always have full effect on the material plane. If cast from the ethereal plane no ones spells will affect the material plane. The only exception is the transdimensional feat. So I guess as it is it's currently about +4
thorofasgard13 01-29-08, 09:48 PM	So here is the quick and dirty fix. The Force-Souled Dragon-Born are a unique type of creature born of the pairing of a Dragon parent which uses force energy, and a parent that is a living incorporeal creature. Because of the unique intermingling of the incorporeal and force energies they have many traits of a half-dragon while maintaining the incorporeal nature of one parent. +2 DEX -2 CON +4 CHA +2 INT Speed: flight 30ft (perfect maneuverability) Qualities: Incorporeal traits, Dragon type (half-dragon) Supernatural abilities: Breath weapon corresponding to their draconic parent(as half-dragon). Deflection bonus to AC equal to their charisma modifier (minimum +1). LA: +3 Favored Class: Sorceror/Warlock or Psion (if parent is a Gem Dragon). I figured the minus to con instead of the plus is more reasonable as a wispy barely there body shouldn't be tougher than a normal solid one, LOL.
thorofasgard13 01-30-08, 09:12 PM	I tried to fix it a bit. Does anyone else have any Ideas that may be helpful?, any criticism is also welcome.
blade265 01-31-08, 06:35 AM	Going by Savage Species, chapter 2 Monster Characters, level adjustments, your template should be at least +9. This is what I found after a quick look, +2 Fly p11 +3 Half-dragon p17 +1 Breath weapon p16(maybe +2) +2 Incorporeal p19 +1 Unbalanced Ability Scores p11 Without a more indepth reading of the template such as BAB, skills, feats etc there maybe more to add.
thorofasgard13 01-31-08, 08:48 AM	Going by Savage Species, chapter 2 Monster Characters, level adjustments, your template should be at least +9. This is what I found after a quick look, +2 Fly p11 +3 Half-dragon p17 +1 Breath weapon p16(maybe +2) +2 Incorporeal p19 +1 Unbalanced Ability Scores p11 Without a more indepth reading of the template such as BAB, skills, feats etc there maybe more to add. You seem to be cross referencing several abilities. Flying comes as a natural part of being incorporeal, Plus the winged template also gets ability score bonuses. The breath weapon, and the unbalanced ability scores are all part of the half-dragon template. And if you look at others like the half-fey which is +2 it has the same +6 to ability scores, flying, and a whole slew of spell-like abilities, and immunity to all enchantments. +9 is an unreasonable number.
blade265 01-31-08, 11:52 AM	You seem to be cross referencing several abilities. Flying comes as a natural part of being incorporeal, Plus the winged template also gets ability score bonuses. The breath weapon, and the unbalanced ability scores are all part of the half-dragon template. And if you look at others like the half-fey which is +2 it has the same +6 to ability scores, flying, and a whole slew of spell-like abilities, and immunity to all enchantments. +9 is an unreasonable number. Yes I know but +2 is unreasonable as well. You have an Incorporeal half dragon these two alone are +5 LA. :)
blade265 01-31-08, 12:33 PM	Where does it say that flying is a natural part of being incorporeal.
wonlee76 01-31-08, 02:01 PM	Hmmm, just noticed something... The only way to get a 100% chance of harming/wounding an incorporeal creature are: Force Effects Ghost Touch weaponry Positive/Negative Energy Effects I'm presuming that like other half-dragons, a Force Half-Dragon would be immune to force effects. So the synergy between your two templates gets rid of a wearkness of the other template... Yeah, this should be higher than a +3 LA. I would peg it at a +4.
thorofasgard13 01-31-08, 02:38 PM	all Incorporeal creatures have a fly speed. most are equal to what their landspeed would have been if a corporeal creature, with perfect maneuverability. You can't walk if you pass through the ground.You don't FALL or take falling damage. Libris Mortis, MMIII, has the full descriptions of incorporeality. I'm presuming that like other half-dragons, a Force Half-Dragon would be immune to force effects. So the synergy between your two templates gets rid of a wearkness of the other template... Nope... any half-dragons that are force based have no immunities whatsoever to any energy type, kinda got gimped on that part. The only thing immune to force is a true Force Dragon! Yes I know but +2 is unreasonable as well. You have an Incorporeal half dragon these two alone are +5 LA. :) I did mean to change it to a +3(my bad I edited the wrong post), with no strength bonus, no immunities, no natural armor, no natural attacks, and a minus to con instead of a plus!
blade265 01-31-08, 08:43 PM	I may give you the fly speed. Of the 14 incorporeal creatures in the first 3 MM's only 3 are playable creatures, the ghost has the lowest LA +5 and this template is more powerful than the ghost. Oh and 1 more thing you can not add dragon and incorporeal together anyway. you can not be an incorporeal half dragon.
Captain_Kobold 02-01-08, 12:01 AM	Oh and 1 more thing you can not add dragon and incorporeal together anyway. you can not be an incorporeal half dragon. The template is written as being of the Dragon Type, with Incorporeal Traits. Not as having both the Incorporeal and Dragon types. As far as I know, that is legal. Nope... any half-dragons that are force based have no immunities whatsoever to any energy type, kinda got gimped on that part. The only thing immune to force is a true Force Dragon! Yep. Almost all of the Half-Dragon templates that have a Force effect breathe weapon have no immunities, and the one that does is to poison. The lack of immunities is presumably to balance the breath weapon: a Force effect is far better than an elemental effect. I did mean to change it to a +3(my bad I edited the wrong post), with no strength bonus, no immunities, no natural armor, no natural attacks, and a minus to con instead of a plus! If I read the traits correctly, a strength bonus and Natural attacks wouldn't do you any good because without a Ghost touch weapon, you have no way of attacking a material target. I would consider an immunity to non-magical damage worth mentioning. You are invulnerable to the vast majority of monsters out there.:uh-huh: Plus a 50% immunity to practically all magical and spell damage. The Half-dragon's Natural Armour bonus is worth less to this template than the Deflection bonus based upon Charisma it gains. Given those defenses will eliminate a huge amount of damage before you even start to lose hit points, I think that you can get away with a con penalty. :P I have never seen any errata that changed the LA for incorporeal. And I've never seen any errata that updated Savage Species directly for v3.5. It has been suggested that some of it is convertable with discretion, but the content is certainly no longer official. I think that the major sticking point that I and others have with the template is your insistence that the incoporeal traits are only worth a +2 to LA. If you actually look at the advantages bestowed, I think that you will realise that it is worth considerably more.
blade265 02-01-08, 01:33 AM	The template is written as being of the Dragon Type, with Incorporeal Traits. Not as having both the Incorporeal and Dragon types. As far as I know, that is legal. uuum.... you actually need something with a physical body. If you look at the half dragon template is states that the base creature needs to be " a living corporeal creature".
thorofasgard13 02-01-08, 04:59 AM	Very good points for most of these. But even if you wanted a straight incorporeal half-dragon you'd just need to have the half-dragon part applied first, right? And second thats why I am creating a new template/race an incorporeal creature with the dragon type. I am mainly trying to compare with other templates and see if being incorporeal is a lot more powerful than say undead immunities or immunities to all enchantment spells, or anything else similar.
blade265 02-01-08, 05:56 AM	Whatever
thorofasgard13 02-04-08, 01:55 PM	If this Template/Race were compared to an already established one of similar LA, the Unbodied (+4, 4 racial HD) for example how would it stack up? How does it stack up if you remove the racial HD ( and the corresponding abilities) from the unbodied?
Captain_Kobold 02-04-08, 09:02 PM	I don't know anything about the Unbodied. What book are they from? I am mainly trying to compare with other templates and see if being incorporeal is a lot more powerful than say undead immunities or immunities to all enchantment spells, or anything else similar. Incorporeal is massively more powerful than undead traits, or immunity to a school of spells. We can break it down a little: Movement: Flight: Worth a straight +1 LA as a start with maneuverability of average of worse. The perfect maneuverability will probably push it into +2 area, despite the speed being slower than average. Since the immunity to falling damage is a function of this, we'll include it. We'll even throw in the ability operate underwater with no penalty as a freebie. Ability to pass through solid objects and hide perfectly within them. Ability to gain total cover at practically any time. +infinity bonus to move silently checks. I'd call this a +1 LA at least, and could be argued to be considerable more since the creature can sense the presence of creatures adjacent to it, but no sensory abilities will detect it. The ability to ignore walls or other barriers of less than 5ft thick might add a further +1 due to the implications indoors to the mobility. (i.e. simply walking through dungeon or building walls.) Deflection bonus to AC: Similar to natural armour, but worth more since it can be increased by increasing the charisma and it affects both touch and flat-footed AC. Worth more than a +5 NA bonus, so +2 LA. . . . And now for the biggie. Immune to non-magical damage. 50% chance to ignore magical damage that is not a force effect or Ghost touch weapon. There is not a single ability or trait that comes even close to what this gives you. You are literally invulnerable to almost all of the creatures in the monster manual. The only ones that have the possibility of affecting you are weapon-using races who are armed with magical weapons, spellcasters, and a few Supernatural abilities. Even Great dragons can only hurt you once every d4 rounds unless they are lucky enough to know some offensive force spells. The sheer scale of that bears repeating. Unless a creature owns a magical item, casts spells, or has a suitable supernatural ability, it simply cannot do you any harm. You can just hover there, casting spells at it until either it dies, it gets away from you (unlikely given your mobility) or you run out of spells. Further, even if a creature owns a magic weapon and can reach you with it, or can target you with a spell or magical ability, you still have an even chance of completely ignoring it unless it is part of a rare subset of magical weapons or spells. Particularly worrying if you are a caster who can use the shield spell to counter magic missiles: the most available option to damage you. I have no idea of even where to start thinking of an LA for that ability. 100% immunity to the vast majority of monster attacks, and 50% immunity to most of the rest doesn't really bear thinking about.
thorofasgard13 02-05-08, 09:25 AM	Unbodied are from expanded psionics hb. They have a much bigger stat bonus, are incorporeal, have a natural attack that touches corporeal, and have telekinesis as a psi-like ability. Plus, ANY creature with damage reduction */magic overcomes this, as their natural weapons strike as magical weapons, taking it to 50% not 100%
Captain_Kobold 02-05-08, 10:32 AM	Unfortunately no. The natural weapons of creatures with damage Reduction /magic are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction only. It does not allow them to strike incorporeal creatures in the same way that the Ki strike ability of the Monk does not allow it to strike incorporeal creatures. Don't know anything about the Unbodied I'm afraid. But at least if what you are saying is true, we have an idea of a reasonable starting ECL for an incorporeal creature. Do they have any weaknesses or vulnerabilities?
thorofasgard13 02-05-08, 10:56 AM	Unfortunately no. The natural weapons of creatures with damage Reduction /magic are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction only. It does not allow them to strike incorporeal creatures in the same way that the Ki strike ability of the Monk does not allow it to strike incorporeal creatures. Ok, I wasn't sure about that. Don't know anything about the Unbodied I'm afraid. But at least if what you are saying is true, we have an idea of a reasonable starting ECL for an incorporeal creature. Do they have any weaknesses or vulnerabilities? No special vulnerabilities or weaknesses to speak of.