Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melayl 06-21-07, 05:44 PM	This is an update and revision of my original thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=867459). I recieved some good input from it and, after much thought (I'm stubborn), decided to change things. I'd appreciate input on this attempt. Can be patterned after any one animal type (wolf, bear, leopard, rat, bat, etc) per base humanoid. I’m not sure if natural lycanthropes should gain the racial benefits of the base humanoid race or not. I’d like input (I think it might make them too powerful). Alignment: Any HD: D8 BAB: ¾ Good Saves: Fort, Reflex Poor Save: Will Racial Skills: Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal*, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Spot, Survival *–4 penalty to checks with animals not of their lycanthrope type Skill Points at 1st level: (2+Int)x4 Skill Points per level after: 2+Int Proficiencies: Their natural weapons and all simple weapons, no armor, no shields Level Special Abilities 1st +2 A & B & C, Natural AC, DR 1/silver, Animal Form, low-light vision, scent lesser:greater, Listen/Search/Spot +2:+4, Fast Movement 5, Fast Healing 0:1/2, Lifespan 1, Bonus Feat, Uniqueness 2nd 2 Bonus Feats 3rd +2 A, DR 2/silver, Fast Movement 10, Bonus Feat 4th +2 B, 2 Bonus Feats 5th +2 A & C, DR 3/silver, Fast Movement 15, Lifespan 2, Bonus Feat 6th Listen/Search/Spot +4:+8, 2 Bonus Feats 7th +2 A, DR 4/silver, Fast Movement 20, Bonus Feat 8th +2 B, 2 Bonus Feats 9th +2 A, DR 5/silver, Fast Movement 25, Bonus Feat 10th +2 C, Lifespan 3, 2 Bonus Feats 11th +2 A, DR 6/silver, Fast Movement 30, Bonus Feat 12th + 2 B, 2 Bonus Feats 13th +2 A, DR 7/silver, Fast Movement 35, Bonus Feat 14th Listen/Search/Spot +6:+12, 2 Bonus Feats 15th +2 A & C, DR 8/silver, Fast Movement 40, Lifespan 4, Bonus Feat 16th +2 B, 2 Bonus Feats 17th +2 A, DR 9/silver, Fast Movement 45, Bonus Feat 18th 2 Bonus Feats 19th +2 A, DR 10/silver, Fast Movement 50, Bonus Feat 20th +2 B & C, Lifespan 5, 2 Bonus Feats Racial Abilities: Stat bonus A, B, C (ex): Choose 1 progression for each stat (and 1 stat for each progression). Gain a +2 (cumulative) bonus to said stat at appropriate level. You recieve the full bonus in your Animal and Hybrid (if purchased) forms, and 1/2 the bonus in your humanoid form. Stat A gains a +2 at 1st level and every odd level (total of +20 at 19th level) Stat B gains a +2 at 1st level and every level divisible by 4 (total of +12 at 20th level) Stat C gains a +2 at 1st level and every level divisible by 5 (total of +10 at 20th level) Natural AC (ex): Bonus to natural AC in all forms. DR (ex): Applies in all forms at the listed amount for level Animal Form (su): As a standard action, you may change your shape to that of an animal of your lycanthrope type. Your animal form size must be within 1 step of your base humanoid size (this may change the size of some animals). If the animal is Small or smaller, your animal form will be Small (for a Medium humanoid), if it is Large or larger, your animal form will be Large. Your physical and mental stats, BAB, saves, skills, and feats stay the same*. You use the attacks listed for the animal type. However, special abilities such as Pounce, Trip, Rage, etc are not available to you (may be purchased with bonus feats). *I’m not sure if stats, AC, etc should be adjusted for size changes or not. It may make the animal forms too powerful. I’d like advice from the rest of you about it. Low-light Vision (ex): In all forms Scent (ex): Lesser scent in humanoid form, greater (normal) scent in Animal and Hybrid (if purchased) forms. Listen/Search/Spot (ex): Your preternaturally keen senses grant you the bonus listed for the appropriate level for humanoid:alternate forms. Fast Movement (ex): You are preternaturally quick in all forms. Add the listed amount for level to movement rate for all forms. Fast Healing (ex): Includes instant reattachment. No fast healing in humanoid form, rate of 1/2 in Animal and Hybrid (if purchased) forms. Lifespan (ex): Being a lycanthrope extends your normal lifespan. 1 extends lifespan to 500 years, 2 to 1000 years, 3 to 1500 years, 4 to 2000 years. At lifespan 5, penalties for aging no longer accrue (although bonuses still accrue every 100 years, as long as you continue to gain experience and/or levels), your physical appearance no longer changes with age, and you will not die of old age (you basically become immortal). Bonus Feats: Must be taken from the Lycanthrope Racial Feats list. Uniqueness: Lycanthropic racial abilities may not be duplicated by shapechange, metamorphosis, polymorph or similar abilities or by class abilities like the Factotum has. Feats are in the next post. Let me know what you think about this, please.
Melayl 06-21-07, 05:47 PM	Unless otherwise noted, all abilities granted are (ex) abilities. Animal Magnetism (lycanthrope) Prereq: Lycanthropic Empathy, 5th level Lycanthrope, Cha 16+ One-half of your Lycanthropic Empathy bonus applies to social interactions (bluff, intimidate, diplomacy, etc) with all other creatures. Blindsense (lycanthrope) Prereq: 10th level Lycanthrope Your preternaturally keen senses grant you additional awareness. Gain blindsense (ex) in a 15’ radius. Special: May be taken multiple times, ranges cumulative. Call Animals (lycanthrope) Prereq: 3rd level Lycanthrope As spell-like ability, you may call animals of your type, as per the Summon Nature's Ally I spell. For every 3 lycanthrope levels, you gain an additional SNA progression. i.e. lycanthrope 9 = SNA III. You may use this ability 1+Cha mod per day. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time grants an additional daily use of the ability. (Thanks to Khatoblepas for the advice to fix this feat) Change Animal Form Size (lycanthrope) Prereq: 8th level Lycanthrope You may shift your Animal Form 1 size category higher or lower than it currently is. You may still change to any other size category you currently have access to. I.E. You are a werebat human (AF size Small) and take this feat and choose Tiny. You may now become a Tiny bat or a Small bat when you change form. Special: You may choose this feat every 4 levels after 8th, changing size category 1 step each time. *(I’m not sure if stats/AC/etc should change with size change – it seems a bit too powerful – input would be appreciated) Change Hybrid Form Size (lycanthrope) Prereq: Hybrid Form, 11th level Lycanthrope You may shift your Hybrid Form 1 size category higher or lower than it currently is. You may still change to any other size category you currently have access to. I.E. You are a werewolf human (HF size Medium) and take this feat and choose Large. You may now become Medium or Large in your Hybrid form when you change form. *(I’m not sure if stats/AC/etc should change with size change – it seems a bit too powerful – input would be appreciated) Dominant (lycanthrope) Prereq: 14th level Lycanthrope, Cha 16+ You may command/dominate lycanthropes of your type of lower level and CHA. Number of lycanthropes = CHA bonus/use, once per day. Lasts hours = CHA bonus. This is an (Su) ability. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time grants an additional daily use of the ability. Energy Resistance (lycanthrope) Prereq: DR 5/silver You gain ER 5 (Su) vs 1 type of energy. Special: You may take this feat again after gaining DR 8/silver and DR 10/silver, gaining an additional ER 5 to 1 type of energy. This may be the same type as previously chosen, or a new type. Evasion (lycanthrope) Prereq: 5th level Lycanthrope, Dex 16+ You gain Evasion (ex) as per the ability. Hybrid Form (lycanthrope) Prereq: 5th level Lycanthrope You gain the (ex) ability to change into a Hybrid version of your base humanoid and Animal forms. It’s size is that of your humanoid form. You gain a Bite attack (1d6) and 2 Claw attacks (1d4 each). Your movement rate in this form is the average of your humanoid and Animal form rates. Improved Fast Healing (lycanthrope) Prereq: 4th level Lycanthrope Your Fast Healing rate improves to 1/2:1 (humanoid:alternate forms). Special: You may take this feat every 4th level, increasing your rate 1 category (1:2, 2:4, 3:6, 4:8). Improved Natural Attack (lycanthrope) Prereq: 3rd level Lycanthrope Choose one of your natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if your size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, it can apply to the same attack form or a different attack form. You may only apply it to the same attack form every 3 levels (3, 6, 9, etc). Improved Natural Armor (lycanthrope) Prereq: Con 13+ Your Natural Armor improves by 1 step in all forms. Special: You may take this feat multiple times (every other level). Lycanthropic Empathy (lycanthrope) Prereq: 1st level Lycanthrope You gain the ability to communicate with animals and lycanthropes of your type. You also gain a +4 to interactions with animals of your type (and lycanthropes of your type and 4 levels lower). Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each time gaining a +2, to a maximum of +14. Multiattack (lycanthrope) Prereq: Hybrid form Your secondary attacks with your natural weapons (claws) take only a –2 penalty. Rapid Change (lycanthrope) [/u]Prereq[/u]: Animal or Hybrid form Changing forms is easier and faster for you (all forms). You may now change form as a Move action. Special: At 8th level or higher, you may take this feat again to change form as a Swift action. Resist Disease (lycanthrope) Prereq: 6th level Lycanthrope, Con 16+ You are more resistant to disease. Double your bonus to saves vs disease. Resist Poison(lycanthrope) Prereq: 6th level Lycanthrope, Con 16+ You are more resistant to poisons. Double your bonus to saves vs poison. Scent (lycanthrope) Prereq: 10th level Lycanthrope Your senses improve, granting you the greater scent ability in your humanoid form. Special Ability (lycanthrope) Prereq: Animal or Hybrid form You may gain use of any 1 special ability of your animal type (Pounce, Sprint, Trip, etc). You may use this special ability in your Animal and Hybrid forms. You may not gain special abilities that an animal of your type does not have. Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each time gaining a new special ability of your animal form. Supernatural Strike (lycanthrope) Prereq: 4th level Lycanthrope Your natural attacks are now treated as magical (+1) in addition to silver for purposes of piercing DR. This is an (Su) ability. Special: You may take this feat again at 10th and 16th level, gaining magical (+3) and Adamant, respectively. I'd welcome any suggestions for other racial feats! Inflicting lycanthropy is more difficult with this new ruleset. The victim must be reduced to 0 or fewer HP solely by natural attacks by the lycanthrope(s), and fail a DC 15 Fort save, and lose 1 level (if applicable), which is replaced by 1st level lycanthrope of the same type. All other rules for inflicted lycanthropes apply as in the SRD, except that the alignment does not change, and Int is reduced to 2 (animal intelligence) while transformed until the victim becomes aware of their affliction/gift.
Holy_Beholder 06-22-07, 10:33 AM	At lifespan 5, penalties for aging no longer accrue (although bonuses still accrue every 100 years) This is broken. Immortality is okay, but mental stats just going up every 100 years isn't.
IronFistMonkCerberlain 06-22-07, 10:17 PM	this version is better that the first, mainly cause i can now be a werepenguin:) change hybrid form size needs a requirement of hybrid size(size you dont gain it automatically)
Melayl 06-23-07, 09:43 PM	This is broken. Immortality is okay, but mental stats just going up every 100 years isn't. I can see how that could be percieved as an issue. However, I would like you to consider this: That immortality is gained at 20th lycan level. You're almost to Epic stages, and by the time that 1st hundred years passes, you likely will be Epic. I don't believe that aging stat gains every 100 years in Epic play is broken. I could be mistaken, since I've never actually played Epic. change hybrid form size needs a requirement of hybrid size(size you dont gain it automatically) I'm not sure I understand what this means. Could you clarify, please?
Holy_Beholder 06-24-07, 08:19 AM	You can get to level 20, vanish into the background for 5000 years, and come out with a wisdom 50 higher and a will save 25 higher. Even in epic, bonuses just coming out of nowhere repeatedly is broken, since you get more powerful without it.
IronFistMonkCerberlain 06-24-07, 04:21 PM	change hybrid form size is completely useless without hybrid form, so you need to make hybrid form a prequsiste for change hybrid form size
Melayl 06-24-07, 06:37 PM	You can get to level 20, vanish into the background for 5000 years, and come out with a wisdom 50 higher and a will save 25 higher. Even in epic, bonuses just coming out of nowhere repeatedly is broken, since you get more powerful without it. What would you propose doing, then? As you spend more time living and learning, you should still continue to get smarter and wiser. @IronFistMonkCerberlain: D'Oh!!! I can't believe I missed that! That's what I get for typing this up at 1 AM... Thanks for the catch.
El_Machinae 06-27-07, 09:01 AM	I think that you'd only get smarter from living if you were pushing yourself. And that can be represented by leveling bonuses. If I sit and watch reruns all day, I'm not going to get smarter (but dumber) if years go by. But if I continue to struggle with math, science, and literature of an appropriate CR, then I'll get smarter (of course, I'll go up levels in 'expert') :) An immortal person would continue to get smarter if they worked on it, but not for free.
Khatoblepas 06-28-07, 11:26 AM	The immortality really shouldn't give boni after +3. With the Call Animals ability, try making it a Summon Nature's Ally type ability (May call animals of the same type, (cat, wolf, bear, boar, etc) according to it's Summon Nature's Ally ability - Can use SNA (Level/3) as a spell like ability 1+Cha/day only to call your own type. So level 9 = SNA3.) Also, some of the feats need to be animal specific. Werebears shouldn't get Blindsense, but Wearbats should. Even though typical lycanthropes have specific animal forms, try to break them down into catagories. (cat, wolf, bear, boar, avain, aquatic) with each having iconic abilities as feats. And tone down the amount of feats you're given! Jesus, that's double what a fighter gets! Try using the Fighter progression rather than giving them a bonus feat every level. It'll complicate things less.
Melayl 06-29-07, 12:23 AM	@El_Machinae You make a good point. I may need to add in that bonuses only continue to acrue if you continue to gain class levels (or racial levels, if I make Epic lycanthrope progressions). @Khatoblepas You've given me some good points to think on. Unfortunately, right now my brain is really fried from too much work and too little sleep. When I've gotten some sleep I'll take a look at things again and try to work up some changes. Thanks, both of you!
El_Machinae 06-29-07, 09:19 AM	No problem. DnD treats aging a bit differently than it is in the real world anyway.
Melayl 06-30-07, 10:45 PM	Ok, I changed the Immortality rules to reflex El_Machinae's suggestions, and the Call Animals ability to reflect Khatoblepas's suggestion. @Khatoblepas: As to your other suggestions, I'm still working on them. With regards to the Blindsense issue -- Bats can get Blindsense earlier than the 10th level requirement for the feat. They can take the Special Ability feat at 1st level to gain it (since it is a trait of bats). I'd probably give them an increase in range, though. After all, 20' for a Tiny creature is quite different from 20' to a Medium or Small creature. I'd probably do at least 40', maybe 60'. I feel that the Blindsense feat is appropriate to all lycanthropes, since they all gain majorly enhanced senses. I am, however, willing to discuss it further. As to the category breakdown of feats, what would you propose? Most of the feats I have listed are pretty darn generic (in terms of base animal type). The Special Ability feat is really the only one I see as specific. And that one's really specific -- you can only take the special abilites of your creature type (as it says in the feat). It's a suggestion I'm more than willing to think about, but I don't see how the current feats can be broken down that way. Now, about the number of bonus feats granted: I thought many people would have that reaction. Let me explain my reasoning, and then you can decide. I based it off of the number of feats necessary to create a werewolf like the one in my original thread, with all of the abilities it gained. Doing so would require 26 feats in total. Ok, so this one gains 30, so I probably could reduce it a bit, but I'm not sure what progression to use. I'm still open to discussion, perhaps by making some of those abilities granted without feats. I'm not sure. I like your feedback, and I'd like to hear more, especially on the above topics.
Melayl 07-12-07, 02:31 AM	:bump: for more feedback
Spikes01k 07-12-07, 04:42 PM	I didn't like it the fist time I looked at it, but after taking a 2nd look, maybe it isn't so bad, however I still think a +2 to all stats at level 1 is just too powerful even for a class that has a D8 hit die and 3/4 BaB. I would make a suggestion, making the stats apply to only while in an alternate form would start to solve some of the problems with power. Also Making the DR/silver apply to only alternate forms would be much better as well. Alternativly I would trunk the bonuses to stats toward the higher levels to prevent people just dipping into the class for 1-2 levels. So I would maybe give at level 1 a +2 to all forms for the A stat, but leave the rest of the bonuses to alternate forms. Making 1 alternate form available at 2nd level would be nice. at that point. example: Stat bonus A, B, C (ex): Choose 1 progression for each stat (and 1 stat for each progression). Gain a +2 (cumulative) bonus to said stat at appropriate level. Bonuses Applies to non-humanoid forms only, except where noted. Stat A gains a +2 bonus to all forms, and a +2 bonus at 3rd level and every odd level (total of +20 at 20th level) Stat B gains a +2 at 2nd level and every 3 levels there after (total of +14 at 20th level) Stat C gains a +2 at 3rd level and every level divisible by 4 (total of +10 at 19th level) This isn't perfect but a little more manageable. P.S. I would also like to see a feat that would up the life span by 1 type, some campaigns run a little slow.
Melayl 07-13-07, 03:32 PM	I changed the stat bonuses to apply only 1/2 in humanoid form. Spikes01k, your suggestion on the stat progression is something I'll keep thinking about. The stats are a big part of this racial class, and I don't know if they'd end up weaker than the normal classes at low levels if I changed it. Remeber, this is both their race and their class (although, truthfully, I haven't decided if they'd get the typical racial traits of their base race or not, so that could affect my decision on this matter). Also, about the feat to increase the lifespan: I'm not sure that it's needed. At 1st level your lifespan is 500 years, and at 5th it's 1000 years. I don't know that a campaign would run that slowly. Maybe I'm not understanding what you meant.
Spikes01k 07-13-07, 05:17 PM	I changed the stat bonuses to apply only 1/2 in humanoid form. Spikes01k, your suggestion on the stat progression is something I'll keep thinking about. The stats are a big part of this racial class, and I don't know if they'd end up weaker than the normal classes at low levels if I changed it. Remeber, this is both their race and their class (although, truthfully, I haven't decided if they'd get the typical racial traits of their base race or not, so that could affect my decision on this matter). Also, about the feat to increase the lifespan: I'm not sure that it's needed. At 1st level your lifespan is 500 years, and at 5th it's 1000 years. I don't know that a campaign would run that slowly. Maybe I'm not understanding what you meant. Well I personally dislike front loaded classes. People should have to work to get more, not just put a 1-4 level dip and move on. *SNIP* wasn't thinking, sorry.