Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zersch 05-19-07, 10:06 AM	So, I'm starting to put a new campaign together. My guys wanted a different setting (generally we play we FR), so I'm making a homebrew. Now, some of them want to play exotic races. I was slightly apprehensive about that, but I'm a pushover, and they convinced me that it would be fun. So, long story short, they want some monster races, but they want them adjusted so that they have little or no LA. So, I have a challenge. I'm working on the following races: Bugbear Gnoll Hobgoblin Minotaur Half-ogre Lizardfolk Troglodyte Basiclly, I'm trying to adjust to either a LA+0, or a LA+1 with these races. So far, I've found out that removeing the Bonus Hit Dice and Levels from them doesn't really affect what my players want so no problems there. Some of them said that they would do with out the bonus skill points and lower ability bonuses, but I'm still up in the air on those points. Those two seem kinda important to the race to me. If I'm wrong let me know. Also for example, I got one guy who wants to play a minotaur but says he could do without the natural cunning. These are the kind of things I'm getting from them. Sounds odd, I know, but we have been playing for almost ten years now. Gimping our characters for more of a challenge is almost a staple in our games. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
AMGriffin 05-19-07, 10:24 AM	So...you want LA+0/LA+1 versions of the list races? Okay...I shall try Bugbear: There's no way you can hope to get an LA+0 bugbear without sucking all of it's flavor out. Instead, opt to lower the strength bonus to +2 and cut down the natural armor to +2. •+2 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, -2 Charisma • Medium Size • 30 feet base land speed • +4 racial bonus on move silently checks. • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • +2 Natural armor. Gnoll: The Gnoll can pass as LA+1 already, just get rid of the Hit-die, and maybe change darkvision to low-light vision. • +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma • Medium Size • 30 feet base land speed • Low-light vision • Scent • +2 Natural armor Hobgoblin: The hobgoblin can go either way, you can beef it up to make it balanced at LA+1, or tone it down to make it LA+0. If you want LA+0, cut the move silently bonus down to +2 and slap on a wisdom penalty. If you want LA+1, give them +1 Natural armor, a 40 feet base landspeed, and maybe something for flavor like proficiency in one weapon of their choice and +2 racial bonuses on craft checks related to weapon or armor smithing. Minotaur: The Dragonlance campaign setting has an LA+0 Minotaur that's pretty decent. Half-ogre:Lower their strength bonus to +4, and their NA to +1 and give them powerful build instead of large size. Lizardfolk: Just lower the Natural armor to +3. Troglodyte: I don't remember their racial traits speficially at the moment, sorry! Those are all pretty rough draftish fixes, but a good place to start.
Grummush_Rogue 05-19-07, 11:11 AM	Dude, if you want something real fun a lot of players would LOVE to do, pimp out badgers and lead an animal campaign. Just cause they couldn't talk to humanoids (and a centaur would fix that if you really needed it) doesn't mean they can't talk to badger cities and subterrain mole people. A dragon could give them quests, and monkeys would be capable of bluiding a city. Just use one of many int. modifier spells, templates, and magical items.
Zersch 05-19-07, 11:17 AM	That's interesting as I did consider running an anthropomorphic campaign. Unfortunently only one other player thought that it would be fun. Oh well, I can shelve the idea and attempt to convince them of it at a later date possibly. I have been read the Redwall series and it is a blast. Although, I would personally consider it a tad too bloody to be considered a childrens book...meh, to each their own Griffin, some good ideas there, thanks, I'll check these out.
Grummush_Rogue 05-19-07, 11:41 AM	yes, i like to imagine there are 2 types of class animals, a celestial gaurdian with cleric and paladin levels, then the rewall version, and let them get Int of 10 at least.
Naderion 05-20-07, 03:52 AM	I agree with Bugbear and Gnoll. For hobgoblins, I would either take away the bonus to Dexterity or Constitution, or add a penalty to another ability, but I think Intelligence or Wisdom both don't seem right and Charisma has to small an influence. A little Natural Armor and +4 on another skill should make it a decent LA +1 race. The Minotaur has to have it's racial HD reduced much lower, but powerfull as they are, I would say not lower than to 2 HD. Strength can be lowered to +4, Constitution to +2, and Natural Armor to +2. This makes a good LA +1, because of the racial HD. 2 HD as monstrous humanoid are not as good as two levels of barbarian. Lizardfolk: No Strength-Bonus and Natural Armor +3 and you should be fine without any LA. You even could reduce racial HD to 1 or even none. Troglodyte: Take away the stench and lower Natural Armor to +2 and take away all the Racial HD. It's clearly LA +0 and even quite weak compared to most core races.
Jaxgaret 05-20-07, 07:03 PM	Basiclly, I'm trying to adjust to either a LA+0, or a LA+1 with these races. So far, I've found out that removeing the Bonus Hit Dice and Levels from them doesn't really affect what my players want so no problems there. Some of them said that they would do with out the bonus skill points and lower ability bonuses, but I'm still up in the air on those points. Those two seem kinda important to the race to me. If I'm wrong let me know. You do know that Racial Hit Dice aren't "Bonus Hit Dice" and don't provide "bonus skill points", right? They count towards your total ECL; effectively, they replace class levels. Removing Racial Hit Dice improves a monster-as-PC, rather than "gimping" it.
Zersch 05-20-07, 07:12 PM	You do know that Racial Hit Dice aren't "Bonus Hit Dice" and don't provide "bonus skill points", right? They count towards your total ECL; effectively, they replace class levels. Removing Racial Hit Dice improves a monster-as-PC, rather than "gimping" it. Well, actually, no, I wasn't aware of that. Basically, we're looking to have these races as close to the PHB races as we can get them. One of my guys said to remove those as a start. I was pretty much, "Sounds good to me.", but I was pretty lost after that. This aspect of the game, and the crafting rules are pretty unknown areas for me. Oddly enough, I do grappling and AoO rules without a second thought.
Thief_of_Hope 05-20-07, 07:35 PM	In the way of Minotaurs, I'm rather fond of this homebrew from right here on the boards: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11253264
Jaxgaret 05-20-07, 07:38 PM	Well, actually, no, I wasn't aware of that. Monsters-as-PCs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm) That will give you a good overview of the rules for it. Btw I like your sig, Zersch. QFT.
Kn1ves 05-20-07, 08:37 PM	That's interesting as I did consider running an anthropomorphic campaign. Unfortunently only one other player thought that it would be fun. Oh well, I can shelve the idea and attempt to convince them of it at a later date possibly. I have been read the Redwall series and it is a blast. Although, I would personally consider it a tad too bloody to be considered a childrens book...meh, to each their own Griffin, some good ideas there, thanks, I'll check these out. If you ever want to run an anthropomorphic animal game then take a look at Palladium's After the Bomb and Rifts settings.
Kn1ves 05-20-07, 08:43 PM	Races with a +1 level adjustment usually are not that unbalancing, in my experiance. In the low end they can be slightly overpowered but the rest of the party quicky catches up and it all balances itself out. If everyone is a level adjustment +1 or +2 race then it's a piece of cake to bump the challenges a bit in the beginning to compensate.
Zersch 05-20-07, 11:18 PM	Thief, Thanks for the link, that was interesting. I seriously need to check out the Dragonlance stuff, even if they are stopping it, it looks cool. Jaxgaret, Also, thanks for the link. I'm going to be checking this out as soon as I get the baby to sleep. Thanks for noticing the sig. Kn1ves, Yeah, got on the phone with one of the guys tiday and talked about him having a LA +1 half-ogre, He's good with it. I'm sure I'll have more questions, but I would like to thank everyone for their help here. It really has my job easier, and given my players a lot more choices even I hadn't considered.
StruckingFuggle 05-21-07, 12:19 AM	Removing Racial Hit Dice improves a monster-as-PC, rather than "gimping" it. It only "improves" a monster-as-pc if the racial hit dice are better than class hit dice. Which generally isn't the case.
Jaxgaret 05-21-07, 12:41 AM	It only "improves" a monster-as-pc if the racial hit dice are better than class hit dice. Which generally isn't the case. No, it only improves a monster-as-PC if the racial HD are worse than the class HD. Which generally is the case [outside of Dragon or Outsider racial Hit Dice vs. a weak PC class such as Fighter]. Let's take a Minotaur as an example. A base Minotaur with 6 RHD and a +2 LA is going to be less powerful than a Minotaur with +2 LA and 6 class levels if the class levels are more powerful than the racial hit dice. Ergo, what I said is correct.
StruckingFuggle 05-21-07, 12:42 AM	No, it only improves a monster-as-PC if the racial HD are worse than the class HD. Which generally is the case. /facedesk Wow. What a stupid mistake. Ha! You are correct.
Jaxgaret 05-21-07, 12:46 AM	/facedesk Wow. What a stupid mistake. Ha! You are correct. :) We all make 'em. No worries!