Gnoll [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Gnoll [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arcaniss_Ner
04-07-08, 10:14 AM I'm making a Gnoll warrior or ranger, gonna start with the monster class (Races of the Wild) so i dont need to worry about that pesky level adjustment, or do i? i still dont know much about d&d's level adjustment and ecl. so i'm wondering if there's something i should know just in case.

thank's in advance.
sonofzeal
04-07-08, 03:50 PM ECL: Equivalent Class Level. A Gnoll has two racial hitdice and one LA, so it counts as ECL 3. A Gnoll who's taken five levels in Barbarian is ECL 8. Make sense?

Racial Substitution levels are like class levels, except you don't gain HD at every step, meaning your hp/skillpoints/saves are a little wonky. The table should cover those details though.

Gnolls are cool, but underpowered for the investment you put in. I haven't checked out the racial sub levels, but I believe those are generally concidered underpowered as well. Honestly, the Gnoll race is totally balanced if you just remove the racial hitdice and treat it as a simple LA+1 race (lowering the ECL by 2). For LA +1 you get some basic goodies over Orc, but none of those are particularly stunning and well within what should be expected from adding an LA.
Neutronium_Dragon
04-07-08, 06:37 PM Generally, a monster class just produces the exact same creature as you see in the MM, albeit one level at a time rather than all at once. If you've got three levels of it and two hit dice, you're getting the exact same result as the MM version.

However, as the poster above noted, the official stats for the gnoll (and thus, monster level progression derived from it) is one of the most often-cited examples of bogus LA. Any actual number crunching clearly puts them at ECL 2, not ECL 3 - but the LA +1 was tacked on to the official version regardless because some of their traits were considered to be an "automatic" level adjustment - regardless of counterweight factors. (In this case, their two abysmally junky racial hit dice which get counted as a full level each despite being only fractionally as useful.)

So there are two routes: Either keep the stat block as it is and drop the LA to +0 (so they are ECL 2), or drop the two racial hit dice and keep the LA +1 along with all of the non-HD derived traits. If you want to use the racial levels in RotW and they're set up as I suspected above, just count all three levels worth of it as being two levels. (The equivalent of dropping the LA from +1 to +0 with the MM stat block.)
ChaosWolf1982
04-07-08, 09:05 PM So there are two routes: Either keep the stat block as it is and drop the LA to +0 (so they are ECL 2), or drop the two racial hit dice and keep the LA +1 along with all of the non-HD derived traits. If you want to use the racial levels in RotW and they're set up as I suspected above, just count all three levels worth of it as being two levels. (The equivalent of dropping the LA from +1 to +0 with the MM stat block.)

This is how I do it. And no complaints so far.
Arcaniss_Ner
04-08-08, 02:37 PM I'm not completely understanding this, what do you mean by "just count all three levels worth of it as being two levels." also what do mean by "stat block"?
sonofzeal
04-08-08, 08:04 PM I'm not completely understanding this, what do you mean by "just count all three levels worth of it as being two levels." also what do mean by "stat block"?
Look, we're suggesting two options. The first has +1 LA, but no Racial Hitdice (which lets you take proper class levels earlier). The second has +0 LA, but keeps the racial hitdice (which gives you more hp and skills).

* Strength +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence -2, Charisma -2.
* Size Medium.
* A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* +1 natural armor bonus.
* Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
* Favored Class: Ranger.
* Level adjustment +1.

* Strength +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence -2, Charisma -2.
* Size Medium.
* A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Racial Hit Dice: A gnoll begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +0, and Will +0.
* Racial Skills: A gnoll’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Listen and Spot.
* Racial Feats: A gnoll’s humanoid levels give it one feat.
* +1 natural armor bonus.
* Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
* Favored Class: Ranger.
* Level adjustment +0
ChaosWolf1982
04-09-08, 06:23 PM Look, we're suggesting two options. The first has +1 LA, but no Racial Hitdice (which lets you take proper class levels earlier). The second has +0 LA, but keeps the racial hitdice (which gives you more hp and skills).

See, now I'm confused. How is it the version that has more stuff (racial hitdice and racial feat) is NOT level +1, but the version WITHOUT the extra trinkets IS adjusted? Wouldn't the version with extra bits be the tweaked one?
steventirey1985
04-09-08, 06:34 PM Because the racial HD is the balancing factor. With two racial HD, the gnoll is already a 2nd level character. Adding on a class level, like ranger, makes the character a Gnoll 2/Ranger 1. A 3rd level character. Racial HD count as character levels.

Look at it this way. The Gnoll has the following stuff:

* Strength +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence -2, Charisma -2.
* Size Medium.
* A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* +1 natural armor bonus.
* Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
* Favored Class: Ranger

Now, those abilities are too strong for a first level character, so you need to balance them out. The first way presented above is to give the a level adjustment of +1. With a level of ranger added, the gnoll would be a 2nd level character for the purposes of experience gained and experience needed to reach the next higher level. For all other purposes, like gaining feats and skills, the character is considered only a first level character. You effectivly loose an entire level to the level adjustment. So a third level character would be a Ranger 2 for most purposes like feats and such, but count as a Ranger 3 for determining how much experience points you gain and how much you need to level.

The second way presented above has no level adjustment, but has 2 racial hd. Racial HD are like class levels. In this case its Gnoll levels. A racial hd level is considered weaker than a normal class level, so you need more of them to offset the abilities gained by the race. For the Gnoll presented above, 2 racial HD balance out the abilities gained by being a gnoll. Yes, you have more HD, skills, and feats than the gnoll with a level adjustment but no racial HD, but instead of giving up one levels worth of class abilities (like a wizards spells or a fighters bonus feats or a barbarians feats), you give up 2 levels of abilities. So a 3rd level gnoll character with 2 racial HD would be a Gnoll 2/Ranger 1, and would count as a 3rd level character for all purposes.
sonofzeal
04-09-08, 10:11 PM See, now I'm confused. How is it the version that has more stuff (racial hitdice and racial feat) is NOT level +1, but the version WITHOUT the extra trinkets IS adjusted? Wouldn't the version with extra bits be the tweaked one?

steventirey1985 pretty much covered it. The one thing I'd correct is that those two levels are in "Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType)", not in "Gnoll", but the idea's correct. The ECL 1 version has less goodies but lets you start getting proper class level earlier. The ECL 2 version gives extra goodies in the form of hp and skills and saves, but delays access to proper class features by one extra level, which is the balancing factor. Levels in "Humanoid" are significantly weaker than levels in any proper class, so that roughly balances out.
AtsuiShoto
04-09-08, 10:28 PM Think of it this way:
You aren't "giving" the gnoll two racial hit dice worth of stuff.
You're stealing two levels of ranger and replacing them with crappy HD.
ChaosWolf1982
04-10-08, 03:30 AM Ow, my head hurts now.

See, this is why ECL always confused me. "It's like you're an extra level... sometimes."
sonofzeal
04-10-08, 09:31 AM Ow, my head hurts now.

See, this is why ECL always confused me. "It's like you're an extra level... sometimes."
I think you're still not quite getting it. ECL is a measure of how powerful you're supposed to be. A level 10 Fighter is ECL 10. A level 10 Wizard is ECL 10... but in practice he's much more powerful because the system isn't perfect. A level 9 Ranger with LA +1 is ECL 10. A level 8 Ranger with two Racial Hitdice is ECL 10. A level 7 Ranger with LA +1 and two Racial Hitdice is ECL 10.

By the core rules, a Gnoll has LA +1 and two Racial Hitdice. This means that he gets three less class levels than his Human counterparts for the same ECL. The argument goes that the racial advantages of Gnolls in no way make up for this. The two methods proposed here make them more playable by lowering their LA or their Racial Hitdice.
runestar
04-10-08, 10:10 AM I agree with either doing away with the racial HD or the LA. Its stats makes it roughly comparable to the goliath from races of stone, which itself is LA+1. The current MM version is just too weak to be worth ECL3.
Thief_of_Hope
04-11-08, 12:36 AM I personally favor an LA 0 gnoll race that someone here on the boards built:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1000470

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arcaniss_Ner 04-07-08, 10:14 AM	I'm making a Gnoll warrior or ranger, gonna start with the monster class (Races of the Wild) so i dont need to worry about that pesky level adjustment, or do i? i still dont know much about d&d's level adjustment and ecl. so i'm wondering if there's something i should know just in case. thank's in advance.
sonofzeal 04-07-08, 03:50 PM	ECL: Equivalent Class Level. A Gnoll has two racial hitdice and one LA, so it counts as ECL 3. A Gnoll who's taken five levels in Barbarian is ECL 8. Make sense? Racial Substitution levels are like class levels, except you don't gain HD at every step, meaning your hp/skillpoints/saves are a little wonky. The table should cover those details though. Gnolls are cool, but underpowered for the investment you put in. I haven't checked out the racial sub levels, but I believe those are generally concidered underpowered as well. Honestly, the Gnoll race is totally balanced if you just remove the racial hitdice and treat it as a simple LA+1 race (lowering the ECL by 2). For LA +1 you get some basic goodies over Orc, but none of those are particularly stunning and well within what should be expected from adding an LA.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-07-08, 06:37 PM	Generally, a monster class just produces the exact same creature as you see in the MM, albeit one level at a time rather than all at once. If you've got three levels of it and two hit dice, you're getting the exact same result as the MM version. However, as the poster above noted, the official stats for the gnoll (and thus, monster level progression derived from it) is one of the most often-cited examples of bogus LA. Any actual number crunching clearly puts them at ECL 2, not ECL 3 - but the LA +1 was tacked on to the official version regardless because some of their traits were considered to be an "automatic" level adjustment - regardless of counterweight factors. (In this case, their two abysmally junky racial hit dice which get counted as a full level each despite being only fractionally as useful.) So there are two routes: Either keep the stat block as it is and drop the LA to +0 (so they are ECL 2), or drop the two racial hit dice and keep the LA +1 along with all of the non-HD derived traits. If you want to use the racial levels in RotW and they're set up as I suspected above, just count all three levels worth of it as being two levels. (The equivalent of dropping the LA from +1 to +0 with the MM stat block.)
ChaosWolf1982 04-07-08, 09:05 PM	So there are two routes: Either keep the stat block as it is and drop the LA to +0 (so they are ECL 2), or drop the two racial hit dice and keep the LA +1 along with all of the non-HD derived traits. If you want to use the racial levels in RotW and they're set up as I suspected above, just count all three levels worth of it as being two levels. (The equivalent of dropping the LA from +1 to +0 with the MM stat block.) This is how I do it. And no complaints so far.
Arcaniss_Ner 04-08-08, 02:37 PM	I'm not completely understanding this, what do you mean by "just count all three levels worth of it as being two levels." also what do mean by "stat block"?
sonofzeal 04-08-08, 08:04 PM	I'm not completely understanding this, what do you mean by "just count all three levels worth of it as being two levels." also what do mean by "stat block"? Look, we're suggesting two options. The first has +1 LA, but no Racial Hitdice (which lets you take proper class levels earlier). The second has +0 LA, but keeps the racial hitdice (which gives you more hp and skills). * Strength +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence -2, Charisma -2. * Size Medium. * A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * +1 natural armor bonus. * Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc. * Favored Class: Ranger. * Level adjustment +1. * Strength +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence -2, Charisma -2. * Size Medium. * A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * Racial Hit Dice: A gnoll begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +0, and Will +0. * Racial Skills: A gnoll’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Listen and Spot. * Racial Feats: A gnoll’s humanoid levels give it one feat. * +1 natural armor bonus. * Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc. * Favored Class: Ranger. * Level adjustment +0
ChaosWolf1982 04-09-08, 06:23 PM	Look, we're suggesting two options. The first has +1 LA, but no Racial Hitdice (which lets you take proper class levels earlier). The second has +0 LA, but keeps the racial hitdice (which gives you more hp and skills). See, now I'm confused. How is it the version that has more stuff (racial hitdice and racial feat) is NOT level +1, but the version WITHOUT the extra trinkets IS adjusted? Wouldn't the version with extra bits be the tweaked one?
steventirey1985 04-09-08, 06:34 PM	Because the racial HD is the balancing factor. With two racial HD, the gnoll is already a 2nd level character. Adding on a class level, like ranger, makes the character a Gnoll 2/Ranger 1. A 3rd level character. Racial HD count as character levels. Look at it this way. The Gnoll has the following stuff: * Strength +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence -2, Charisma -2. * Size Medium. * A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * +1 natural armor bonus. * Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc. * Favored Class: Ranger Now, those abilities are too strong for a first level character, so you need to balance them out. The first way presented above is to give the a level adjustment of +1. With a level of ranger added, the gnoll would be a 2nd level character for the purposes of experience gained and experience needed to reach the next higher level. For all other purposes, like gaining feats and skills, the character is considered only a first level character. You effectivly loose an entire level to the level adjustment. So a third level character would be a Ranger 2 for most purposes like feats and such, but count as a Ranger 3 for determining how much experience points you gain and how much you need to level. The second way presented above has no level adjustment, but has 2 racial hd. Racial HD are like class levels. In this case its Gnoll levels. A racial hd level is considered weaker than a normal class level, so you need more of them to offset the abilities gained by the race. For the Gnoll presented above, 2 racial HD balance out the abilities gained by being a gnoll. Yes, you have more HD, skills, and feats than the gnoll with a level adjustment but no racial HD, but instead of giving up one levels worth of class abilities (like a wizards spells or a fighters bonus feats or a barbarians feats), you give up 2 levels of abilities. So a 3rd level gnoll character with 2 racial HD would be a Gnoll 2/Ranger 1, and would count as a 3rd level character for all purposes.
sonofzeal 04-09-08, 10:11 PM	See, now I'm confused. How is it the version that has more stuff (racial hitdice and racial feat) is NOT level +1, but the version WITHOUT the extra trinkets IS adjusted? Wouldn't the version with extra bits be the tweaked one? steventirey1985 pretty much covered it. The one thing I'd correct is that those two levels are in "Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType)", not in "Gnoll", but the idea's correct. The ECL 1 version has less goodies but lets you start getting proper class level earlier. The ECL 2 version gives extra goodies in the form of hp and skills and saves, but delays access to proper class features by one extra level, which is the balancing factor. Levels in "Humanoid" are significantly weaker than levels in any proper class, so that roughly balances out.
AtsuiShoto 04-09-08, 10:28 PM	Think of it this way: You aren't "giving" the gnoll two racial hit dice worth of stuff. You're stealing two levels of ranger and replacing them with crappy HD.
ChaosWolf1982 04-10-08, 03:30 AM	Ow, my head hurts now. See, this is why ECL always confused me. "It's like you're an extra level... sometimes."
sonofzeal 04-10-08, 09:31 AM	Ow, my head hurts now. See, this is why ECL always confused me. "It's like you're an extra level... sometimes." I think you're still not quite getting it. ECL is a measure of how powerful you're supposed to be. A level 10 Fighter is ECL 10. A level 10 Wizard is ECL 10... but in practice he's much more powerful because the system isn't perfect. A level 9 Ranger with LA +1 is ECL 10. A level 8 Ranger with two Racial Hitdice is ECL 10. A level 7 Ranger with LA +1 and two Racial Hitdice is ECL 10. By the core rules, a Gnoll has LA +1 and two Racial Hitdice. This means that he gets three less class levels than his Human counterparts for the same ECL. The argument goes that the racial advantages of Gnolls in no way make up for this. The two methods proposed here make them more playable by lowering their LA or their Racial Hitdice.
runestar 04-10-08, 10:10 AM	I agree with either doing away with the racial HD or the LA. Its stats makes it roughly comparable to the goliath from races of stone, which itself is LA+1. The current MM version is just too weak to be worth ECL3.
Thief_of_Hope 04-11-08, 12:36 AM	I personally favor an LA 0 gnoll race that someone here on the boards built: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1000470