Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 04-16-07, 11:41 PM	This is just a little survey of opinion here on the Races board. Like many people, I don't really liked the way gnomes are portrayed in the PHB as pranksters and practical jokers. I also find the Zil gnomes in Eberron a bit too sinister and dark for my tastes (I have no problem with egoistic, untrustworthy, ruthless gnomes, as individuals, but a whole society in which they seem to be a majority, eh... not my style). I'm thinking of keeping some of the comical elements in gnome society, but giving them a sort of satirical, irreverent streak. Their sense of humor isn't about lacing your food with laxatives, but about writing a song which ingeniously mocks the dour fire-and-brimstone sermons of some pompous local Hextorian priest. Their sense of humor is more in line with Voltaire, Chaplin, or Vonnegut -- often bitter, but driven by a sense of moral purpose. My question is: would this make gnomes more appealing to play? I realize that you can't expect every player with a gnome PC to be a brilliant satirist, and most gnomes aren't either, but the point is that it's a type of humor they prize highly, and they generally have an irreverent outlook, often underpinned with a deep moral sense. From the Wolf, to the Deer I fully understand your perspective and think we can reach a shared compromise. Let us keep our engagement constructive. We are both going through difficult times. If we can both show flexibility I'm sure we can get past these conflicts. It isn't beyond our ability to discuss this like rational adults. I'm eager to listen to whatever concerns you might have, but ultimately I'll make the judgment call. Reconsider and we have a great oppurtunity. Our mutuals interests will ensure we'll come to a satisfactory deal. If we look for creative solutions we'll use teamwork to make you my meal.
Naderion 04-17-07, 07:24 AM	I don't think a race should be centered around humor and though I like to think of gnomes as a people, whose mindset is about not worrying and allways reminding about the good things, a race of pranksters just can't be taken seriously. But in any way, gnome humor should be quite intelligent and not of the blunt kind. It's about bringing joy and fun, not about causing damage.
penchant 04-17-07, 08:47 AM	The problem is that gnomes have so many different versions in actual mythology. In some views they are caretakers of nature (David the Gnome types) and in others they are indistiguishable from goblins. The real question would be in a fantasy setting is what social niche do you need them to fill? Comic relief is about all that is left when you have all the other races in their various aspects.
Baduk 04-17-07, 09:01 AM	when facing a kobold the pranks aren't there it's all sharp daggers, lethal bolts and painful spells (the pranks come afterwards of course, like cutting off the head and use it as a bowling ball, nothing serious)
Seldriss 04-17-07, 09:17 AM	Good point. Sure they might enjoy humor and jokes, but as it has been said by another poster, that shouldn't be their main personality trait. Personnally, i don't really see gnomes as pranksters. I see them as creative. Creative in the inventor way, engineers and craftmen. Like the tinker gnomes of Krynn. And creative in the artisitic way, performers and storytellers. Like the D&D3 gnome (bard preferred class). But i also see them as fey-type creatures, linked to nature, plants and animals. Like the forest gnomes. And deeply linked to the arcane arts, which fits the old illusionist gnome icon. In this regard, i don't give them +2 Con, but +2 Int to reflect their creative mind, or +2 Wis for the forest gnomes. They can be set in a irish setting, living between humans and leprechauns. Or in a viking setting, close to the dwarves and the huldufolk and the tomtes. Or virtually in any other campaign setting, where there is a place between the material world and the spirit one. All these traits, combined together, give a rich and complex personality and civilization.
DarkRhystar 04-17-07, 12:14 PM	Gnomes were awesome as Illusionists using their illusions to confuse and confuddle foes. Making them Bards was one of the worst ideas in all of 3.5.
Shedeo 04-17-07, 04:55 PM	I have a bit of a beef with Gnomes. I really don't know why exactly, but I'm betting that it has something to do with the fact that they try to be everything. They're caretakers of nature, friends with fuzzy little critters, masters of arcane trickery, alchemists, inventors, all these things. It just seems to be like they clash. They should either be the inventing arcanists, or the caretakers of nature. To me it seems that they live underground in these very advanced societies, but above its a calm forest that should be crawling with rangers. Just seems to clash to me, but maybe I'm being too traditional. *shrugs* I dunno, that's my opinion. Anyways, on topic. I like this version of gnomes better, actually. I think it suits them much more accurately. Halflings seem like they'd be pranksters, gnomes a bit more subtle humor.
cpn_creepo 04-17-07, 05:53 PM	First off, and a bit unrelated-ly, head over to this MySpace (http://www.myspace.com/jonathancoulton) and listen to the song "RE: Your Brains." It reminds me very much of the poem in the first post. I'm quite favored of gnomes being portrayed as brilliant inventors and tinkers. I'm a fan of both the Dragonlance novels, and of World of Warcraft, so that's the type of gnomes I'm most familiar with. In may campaign world, I've even stripped the gnomes of their knack for illusions, and instead gave them abilities more suited for a tinkerer. As for their sense of humor revolving around being pranksters? Well, I have other races i use in my world that can fill that role, and I'm kinda of taken with JulesCARV's idea of making them satirists, and subtle humorists. So, I think I might incorporate into my version of gnomes.
AMGriffin 04-17-07, 06:59 PM	For some reason, the humorous aspect of Gnomes never really got to me. I've always made them light-hearted and playful, with exceeding intellect and a shade of craziness. The illusion thing seems kinda pointless and pidgeon holes them too. So, basically I got rid of their illusion power and added +2 INT, -2 WIS to them.
malykoth 04-17-07, 07:22 PM	While I understand that it's helpful and flavorful to have a thumbnail sketch of a race, it never really sat too well with me. Sure, some traits might be more common, but I didn't like, as someone put it, the pigeon-holing. That being said, I could see each race having several different common archetypes... For example: in any given town, gnomes might be jolly pranksters, scheming opportunists (which might very well pose as jolly pranksters), refined satirists, or slightly befuddled but creative inventors. This would create a richer background for the races, and help make them not so two dimensional. I realize this idea isn't that innovative, but just my :twocents:
Return of the Flumph 04-17-07, 07:25 PM	I see them as caretakers of nature, but from a scientific perspective rather than a spiritual one. They revere nature by studying it, and they consider the principles of physics and chemistry to be gifts from the natural world that they must use responsibly. Of course, in a fantasy world "physics of the natural world" includes arcane magic, which is why they are good arcanists as well as mechanics; to them, its the same thing.
cpn_creepo 04-17-07, 07:37 PM	"We enter this world naked, screaming, and covered in blood...the fun doesn't have to end there..." Hahaha. Where's that from? Or is a work of your own creation? In any case I just thugged to use on my MySpace.
malykoth 04-17-07, 07:41 PM	Hahaha. Where's that from? Or is a work of your own creation? In any case I just thugged to use on my MySpace. Actually, I first saw a version of it in a White Wolf source book, but apparently it was around before that. I'm not sure who first came up with it, though.
Clutchbone 04-18-07, 01:41 PM	I rather like the Eberron Gnomes. The whole culture of diplomacy, clever wordplay, and subtle machinations really sets them apart from the other races, especially halflings. I like the idea that Gnomes don't pick your pockets, they talk you into believing you owe them money. In my games, every race gets one of two favored clases, the PHB one and one from a splatbook. Gnomes get Beguilers, which as a class fits what I think a Gnome would act like perfectly.
Nived 04-18-07, 02:02 PM	I'm going to date myself here... but when I think of the personality of Gnomes... I think of David the Gnome. Anyone remember that cartoon, from way back in the day when nick Jr. first came on? I remember watching it for lack of a better thing to do when I was home sick from school as a kid. David was a doctor, he was smart, clever, outsmarted his foes rather than confronting them directly. He was good natured, down to earth, pleasant. The end of the episodes had little documentary esque snipits of the 'lives of gnomes' which were quite gadgety in a natural way. One of my favorite characters ever, a NG Gnome Druid, well he wasn't based on David the Gnome but I kept David in mind while trying to decide how my character would react. Granted David was only 5 inches tall but that's really beside the point. Generally in my campaigns (be they in Eberron or wherever) I do indeed keep the 'classic' image of a gnome, long white beards and pointy hats... for the elderly. Once gnomes hit 'old' its the cultural norm to grow the beards out. Younger gnomes keep them clipped and trim like Gimble, and Nebin from the PHB. Now having said all that, I do really enjoy Eberron's take on Gnomes, and I believe it is actually a natural extention of them. They're still small, but they highly prize cleverness, and insight, they've always had a racial bonus to listen checks. I don't see Eberron gnomes as directly sinister (though there are certainly sinister gnomes) they just pay attention to what people say, how they say it, and what they're not saying. They listen and they critically think about what they've heard. In a world as hostile as Eberron its easy to turn this into a weapon. Loose lips sink ships after all, gnomes just have a tendacy to actually listen to what people are flapping their jaws about. Still like I said I don't see Eberron gnomes as inheirantly sinister. In Khoranberg or Trolanport that may certainly seem to be the case but I firmly believe there are just as many rural gnomes in Zilargo who farm, who live in burrows and are good natured friendly folk more akin to the standard PHB description of gnomes as lighthearted pranksters. Still even out there you'd have to watch what you say.