Gnomes are a weird race. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gnomes are a weird race. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
monkofcuthbert4684
02-21-07, 09:10 PM Okay, first let me say that I like gnomes. They are one of my favorite races, especially when rogues. But, the time has come for someone to question their unweirdness, and that person has to be me.

Their main problem is their ability score adjustment. They make virtually no sense. How can you be tough, but weak? It is strange, to say the least. I once knew someone who played a gnome wizard who had a 20 Constitution, but a 4 Strength. A 4!! The difference between them makes a good score itself! It says in the Abilities Chapter in the PHB that a t-rex has a 20 Constitution. Here we are looking at a t-rex who can't bust an average door open on a nat 20! The apocalypse is here! When you can''t kill the tyrannosaurus, just stick it in a room and close the door? Can someone please restore my sanity!?!
Drodain
02-21-07, 09:18 PM You're looking at him like he's a t-rex but he's not. He's a little midget who can't pick up a backpack easily. However he isn't really bothered at all by an attack. I don't have my books but the T-rex's strength determines if he can break the door. This is basic stuff when you seperate a persons abilities into just a couple groups. It doesn't work perfectly.
mrpopstar
02-21-07, 09:31 PM monkofcuthbert4684:
Okay, first let me say that I like gnomes. They are one of my favorite races, especially when rogues. But, the time has come for someone to question their unweirdness, and that person has to be me.

Their main problem is their ability score adjustment. They make virtually no sense. How can you be tough, but weak? It is strange, to say the least. I once knew someone who played a gnome wizard who had a 20 Constitution, but a 4 Strength. A 4!! The difference between them makes a good score itself! It says in the Abilities Chapter in the PHB that a t-rex has a 20 Constitution. Here we are looking at a t-rex who can't bust an average door open on a nat 20! The apocalypse is here! When you can''t kill the tyrannosaurus, just stick it in a room and close the door? Can someone please restore my sanity!?!Constitution, as defined by the PHB v3.5, is a measure of health and stamina. Strength, in comparison, is a measure of muscle and physical power. Durability is not indicative of one's capacity for brute force. Your trouble lies in that you are equating fortitude with brawn; they are very different measures in game terms. :)
Alten_Freehands
02-21-07, 09:41 PM I akin the Con Str difference to the Olympics. Look at the crazy distant races we'll go with the 25,000M now this is a pretty good distance. Now as the world knows Kenya dominates this distance why who in hades knows. Nonetheless the winners of this race are typically not the most physically intimidating individuals out there but when runners from other countries are passing out and going through heat stroke and othere madness theses Kenyan runners aren't even winded.

Now did they win because they could throw a shotput 20+ meters, nope they one because their Constitution is second to none.

Hope the visual helps
Arem_K
02-21-07, 09:48 PM They're like vegetarians. Surprisingly healthy scrawny wimps.
TheCobra
02-21-07, 10:06 PM I don't have any problem with low STR, high CON characters. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. For example, this is basically how Tolkien describes Hobbits.

High STR, low CON characters, on the other hand, do seem a bit odd to me.

Anyways, if it really bothers you, remember that, pound for pound, gnomes are stronger than humans.
ElberethSilverleaf
02-21-07, 10:36 PM Alten_Freehands, that was an excellent example.

The most obvious RW example is Lance Armstrong. I can't even guess what his constitution would be in D&D. He is obviously not a wimp, so maybe a 12 strength? But he isn't an incredibly strong guy.

You won't see any of the guys able to pull cars in strongman competetions competing in the Tour de France.
MikeN
02-22-07, 01:35 AM Attributes in D&D don't actually correspond to anything concrete. In defense of the system, it's pretty hard to make something that does.

Something more "realistic" would be to combine Str and Con for damage-giving and damage-taking purposes, use something else to measure speed and stamina, and then use Dex for the "to-hit" bonus rather than strength.

Call it something like:

Physique = how much extra damage you can take and dish out
Fitness = how long you can go on before fatigue and at what level (speed) you can do it in
Dexterity = how easy it is for you to hit a target or avoid being one
__________

Not only that, but Int, Wis, and Cha are as bad or worse than the physical stats. Perception, memory, speed of thought, and force of personality are hard to quantify though.
Naderion
02-22-07, 07:34 AM Take back the racial adjustments of the particular character, then it's still ST 6 and CO 18. The base scores are weired, nott the modifications. :D

Constitution is three things:
- Ability to shrug of wounds.
- Endurance
- Ability to cope with disease and poison.

The first thing might be a bit out of place in a short gnome, but the other two are just their special anatomy.

To the kenyan runners: Most parts of Kenya are at very high altitude, so the people there are used to very thin air, that means they naturally have strong hearts and lungs, I think. Also, most people there are poor. They don't have cars, bikes or horses, so they have to cross distances by foot. They have basically trained every day since they can walk.
Mist big races are at a much more lower altitude than Kenya, so while other runners have to deal with their usual conditions, they have much more better conditions then they are used to, because of the much higher amount of oxygen in the air.
Pezix
02-22-07, 07:43 AM ..So like Gnomes and basically Dwarven-Halfings,.... High con from the dwarven side, low strength from the halfling side,.. wierd head from the halfling side,. always have GO-TEEs from the Dwarven side,....its what it is man:cool:
Seldriss
02-22-07, 07:44 AM I know that's not the point of the thread, but i personally give gnomes +2 to Int rather than Con.
It fits better their culture based upon crafting and magic, in my opinion.
CaoSlayer
02-22-07, 11:06 AM That gnome is just fat, tons of grease and meat for protection and few muscle (or all muscle power busy trying to move himself).
Orchomenos
02-22-07, 11:25 AM High STR, low CON characters, on the other hand, do seem a bit odd to me.

This would be the difference between a weightlifter and a World's Strongest Man athlete. The weightlifter is built and trainned to lift this freacking heavy bar once, then throw it on the ground, winded; this is High STR, Low CON. The World's Strongest Man athlete is built and trainned to lift this same freacking heavy bar, and draw it on a 100 yards distance, then lift another freacking heavier bar, and draw it back the same 100 yards distance; this is High STR, High CON.
Jerks
02-22-07, 01:30 PM Gnomes kinda bug me. They often come off to me as nothing more than a mix of human-dwarf and halfling stats/cultures, and their favorite class is bard. Even their look now-a-days is a bit to generic, looking like short elves or tall halflings. Back in the day they looked like the pitchman from Travelocity. Ugly, but they had a bit of character.

Maybe I just need to read some really good fiction staring a gnome. All the other core races have proud literary traditions. Heck, look at what Drizzt did for Drow. Gnomes need a Drizzt.
jimthegray
02-22-07, 03:48 PM They're like vegetarians. Surprisingly healthy scrawny wimps.

nah it because they run from a very young age, every day.
humans are the best long distance runners on the earth, but most people only run occasionally
Grod_The_Giant
02-22-07, 04:31 PM I know that's not the point of the thread, but i personally give gnomes +2 to Int rather than Con.
It fits better their culture based upon crafting and magic, in my opinion.

I give +2 Cha. It fits their culture as mischevious pranksters.
mrpopstar
02-22-07, 04:33 PM It simplifies things to view Gnomes as being sturdier than your average human, as exemplified by their +2 CON adjustment, and physically weaker than your average human, as defined by their -2 STR. The constitution adjustment honors their toughness; they are steadfast little buggers. The strength adjustment basically lends to the fact that, considering their small stature, they are not as strong as your average human (a larger humanoid). :)

I disagree with giving Gnomes a +2 INT adjustment based on their "interest in" or "fascination with" alchemy and inventing. They are not as interested in magic as they are simply "magical" (as defined by Spell-Like Ability Racial Trait). Also, they are reckless, inquisitive, and prefer to learn via personal experience. Above average INT would have one acting in a different manner, in my own opinion. :)
Wolf72
02-23-07, 05:25 PM people from Kenya aren't necessarily better runners ... they just had (have) a few dedicated sporstman who trained really hard.

... and high altitude training is a myth. training at a normal/lower altitude is better b/c it trains your body to absorb more oxygen
AMGriffin
02-23-07, 07:35 PM I disagree with giving Gnomes a +2 INT adjustment based on their "interest in" or "fascination with" alchemy and inventing. They are not as interested in magic as they are simply "magical" (as defined by Spell-Like Ability Racial Trait). Also, they are reckless, inquisitive, and prefer to learn via personal experience. Above average INT would have one acting in a different manner, in my own opinion. :)[/indent]

That definition lends gnomes have a bonus to intelligence.

...But a penalty to wisdom as well :)

You can be really smart, learn things quickly, have a dictionary worthy vocabulary, and read physics for fun. Though at the end of the day lack any form of common sense.
monkofcuthbert4684
02-23-07, 08:50 PM That definition lends gnomes have a bonus to intelligence.

...But a penalty to wisdom as well :)

You can be really smart, learn things quickly, have a dictionary worthy vocabulary, and read physics for fun. Though at the end of the day lack any form of common sense.

That's actually what they have in 2nd Ed., only with +1 (like they always used to)
3DJutsu
02-23-07, 08:57 PM High STR, low CON characters, on the other hand, do seem a bit odd to me.

Steroids? That or Powerhouses suceptible to sickness
AMGriffin
02-23-07, 10:03 PM High Strength low consitution is one of the more fickle stat couplings. The only race that comes to mind (for me) with +2 strength, -2 Constitution is the wood elf, and wood elves don't make much sense to me as it is :(

I guess I'd justify high strength and low con having alot of strength, but perhaps not muscle tone or endurance.

High strength and low dexterity and constitution probably implies you're a big fat guy who just pushes his sheer girth into everything.
monkofcuthbert4684
02-24-07, 01:48 PM High strength and low dexterity and constitution probably implies you're a big fat guy who just pushes his sheer girth into everything.

That's totally my brother!

I am now sane again.

Thanks!
zook1shoe666
02-24-07, 02:16 PM That definition lends gnomes have a bonus to intelligence.

...But a penalty to wisdom as well :)

You can be really smart, learn things quickly, have a dictionary worthy vocabulary, and read physics for fun. Though at the end of the day lack any form of common sense.

in one of the older Dragon mags... there was the Arcane Gnome. -2 str, +2 con, +2 int, -2 wis. i think its perfect for the "basic" Gnome conce3pt
SokenzanMarauder
02-24-07, 03:01 PM I've been wondering why they switched Gnomes over to a constitution bonus. What I think it should be is an intelligence bonus and switch their favored class back to Illusionist like it used to be.

Further, what happened to the huge noses? I used to love how Gnomes used to look, now they're almost like midget elves.

-Gene
AMGriffin
02-24-07, 03:09 PM I'd guess they were given "normal" noses because it would make them seem more serious. Gnomes and Halflings in 2E were both kinda silly and hard to take seriously
Jaxgaret
02-24-07, 03:55 PM High Str, Low Con can be easily reckoned as a large, fat person.

Or simply a person physically strong, but with little pain threshold.

Or susceptible to getting sick, or healing slowly. Constantly having colds (or worse illnesses) or having old wounds that have not healed properly will leave one easier to slay on the battlefield.
SokenzanMarauder
02-24-07, 04:17 PM I'd guess they were given "normal" noses because it would make them seem more serious. Gnomes and Halflings in 2E were both kinda silly and hard to take seriously

I always thought that was part of their charm. :P

-Gene
Sudnji_cas
02-24-07, 09:44 PM But what do High STR and DEX and low CON and vice versa means?
Wolf72
02-24-07, 09:48 PM But what do High STR and DEX and low CON and vice versa means?

you're a feather weight boxer ... float like a butterfly, sting like a bee ... but don't get hit

(wolf thinks of movie "Great White Hype")
Wraithcat*
02-25-07, 10:34 AM Having seen many recruits come through the Army, I have seen both high strength, low con and high con, low strength many times in real life.

The high strength, low con guys are usually the sort who press weights in the gym, can powerlift a tank, but fall by the wayside the first time they have to do a forced march, or run for a bit. Sadly and tragically, many of these guys have spent a heap of time building muscle, but haven't actually done enough arobic exersise to develop the blood supply, or oxygen carrying capacity to carry all the muscle effectively for any period of time. These guys often come in thinking that they will rule the roost physically, but get a shock when they find they collapse in a heap.

The reverse tend to be the sort who have done things like cross country running, swimming, or even just riding a bike to work. They are often fairly thin and don't have the muscle mass of the other guys and while strong for thier size, couldn't lift the same weight. They can however keep on running, forced marching, or just about anything else until the cows come home and often perform better during training for that reason. Ironically enough, these guys are often just as surprised as the first lot, who they are surprised to find themselves outperforming.

Now, as far as low dex is concerned, that seems to fairly much sum up all of them, particularly just after they've been handed a rifle for the first time. Sometimes I believe the medics select them on the basis of thier having more than one left foot. Some, I would swear had at least 5 or 8 of the things... :rolleyes:

Also, good marathon runners have different muscle fibres to the sprinters. Can't remember how it works of the top of my head, but certain types of muscle are good for sprinting and others for long distance running. I understand that certain genetic groupings have different proportions of those, which is why Kenyans seem to produce the large number of long distance runners that they do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_fiber

Of course not having a real flash public transport system might also have something to do with it...
Isomer
02-25-07, 04:44 PM They're like vegetarians. Surprisingly healthy scrawny wimps.

Suprisingly native Kenyians (the ones that look scrawny but can go forever) work off of a diet that is almost exclusively meat and dairy. The high con has more to do with the hot and rugged country they live in.
AMGriffin
02-25-07, 04:55 PM Kenyans also run...and do nothing but run. They get up and run then go to bed, get up and run some more, and that would probably be way better for your ability to run then something like your diet (which is pretty vague anyway, your body can process and filter most of the stuff you really don't need unless you violently abuse it, something most kenyans probably don't have the luxury of doing.)
Werral
02-25-07, 06:20 PM I'd guess they were given "normal" noses because it would make them seem more serious. Gnomes and Halflings in 2E were both kinda silly and hard to take seriously

So why +2 alchemy "because they have big noses" if they don't?
zook1shoe666
02-25-07, 07:04 PM So why +2 alchemy "because they have big noses" if they don't?

its their sense of smell.... and has nothing to do with the size of the nose.
ElberethSilverleaf
02-25-07, 11:23 PM Give me hairy footed halflings & big nosed illusionist gnomes anyday.....
SokenzanMarauder
02-25-07, 11:36 PM Give me hairy footed halflings & big nosed illusionist gnomes anyday.....
Here here!

-Gene
Donald_Cannith
02-25-07, 11:58 PM Hell yeah lets get dragonlance out of our base D and D. If i want kender ill do dragonlance. I want my garden gnome tricksters and naturalists. i want my Hobbit Pot belied Rogue. i want Greyhawk back!!
zook1shoe666
02-26-07, 09:51 AM yeah i agree... *cheers for the hobbit-style halflings*
ElberethSilverleaf
02-26-07, 08:18 PM Every campaign I've ran, Greyhawk or Faerun, the players who wanted halflings wanted "hobbits", not smaller versions of gnomes. I allow gnomes to chose bard or illusionist as their favored class after 3e.
monkofcuthbert4684
02-28-07, 04:37 PM Give me hairy footed halflings & big nosed illusionist gnomes anyday.....

Hobbits are awesome.

But what are their stats? I mean, their so fat, so can they have a bonus dex?

I edited this to ask anyone who has an answer to my question to go to the post "Hobbits" (obviously under races) to answer there so we can stick to the original topic of the post.
The Ubbergeek
02-28-07, 04:59 PM Every campaign I've ran, Greyhawk or Faerun, the players who wanted halflings wanted "hobbits", not smaller versions of gnomes. I allow gnomes to chose bard or illusionist as their favored class after 3e.

I tell you why.

Those are NOT adventurer races, really...

And Tolkienism.

D&D wanted to get away from stereotypical and overrused Tolkienisms.

It's not bad - the new halflings are not kneders, but an interesting mix of the classic halfling and kendereques (the best ones!) points. And gnomes are no less clich�ed David the Gnomes or Tinker Gnomes, but likewise, a mix.

Is change bad? Why not?

Like I say toward elves, it's D&D, not Tolkien. Never be, and that's how it is.
monkofcuthbert4684
02-28-07, 05:01 PM I don't know, isn't DnD supposed to be partially based on LOTR?
The Ubbergeek
02-28-07, 08:21 PM I don't know, isn't DnD supposed to be partially based on LOTR?

Yeah, but it never was to BE a LOTR rpg. Since the start, there had been also other influences and tolkienism where given a twist; remember that in LOTR, elves are not mortals but spirits in flesh?

And along the years, the writters had made efforts (partialy because the Tolkien estate fought a legal battle in the early years with TSR) to make D&D it's own entity, creatively... Not a LOTR clone. To divert from Tolkien's works.
scienceman47
03-01-07, 01:47 AM Halflings are currently gypsies, which makes sense for a race that produces so many rogues.

Gnomes kinda lack a certain panache in greyhawk. In ebberon, they turn into little machiavellies. Ambitious and scheming.
Zumarai
03-01-07, 08:28 AM Now as the world knows Kenya dominates this distance why who in hades knows.

While my wife is Kenyan (half Masai/half kikuyu) and she is freakishly quick, and can run or walk forever, I don't know if it's a genetic predisposition or if it is because of the history of the Masai covering great distances for hunting/grazing areas for their cattle.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
monkofcuthbert4684 02-21-07, 09:10 PM	Okay, first let me say that I like gnomes. They are one of my favorite races, especially when rogues. But, the time has come for someone to question their unweirdness, and that person has to be me. Their main problem is their ability score adjustment. They make virtually no sense. How can you be tough, but weak? It is strange, to say the least. I once knew someone who played a gnome wizard who had a 20 Constitution, but a 4 Strength. A 4!! The difference between them makes a good score itself! It says in the Abilities Chapter in the PHB that a t-rex has a 20 Constitution. Here we are looking at a t-rex who can't bust an average door open on a nat 20! The apocalypse is here! When you can''t kill the tyrannosaurus, just stick it in a room and close the door? Can someone please restore my sanity!?!
Drodain 02-21-07, 09:18 PM	You're looking at him like he's a t-rex but he's not. He's a little midget who can't pick up a backpack easily. However he isn't really bothered at all by an attack. I don't have my books but the T-rex's strength determines if he can break the door. This is basic stuff when you seperate a persons abilities into just a couple groups. It doesn't work perfectly.
mrpopstar 02-21-07, 09:31 PM	monkofcuthbert4684: Okay, first let me say that I like gnomes. They are one of my favorite races, especially when rogues. But, the time has come for someone to question their unweirdness, and that person has to be me. Their main problem is their ability score adjustment. They make virtually no sense. How can you be tough, but weak? It is strange, to say the least. I once knew someone who played a gnome wizard who had a 20 Constitution, but a 4 Strength. A 4!! The difference between them makes a good score itself! It says in the Abilities Chapter in the PHB that a t-rex has a 20 Constitution. Here we are looking at a t-rex who can't bust an average door open on a nat 20! The apocalypse is here! When you can''t kill the tyrannosaurus, just stick it in a room and close the door? Can someone please restore my sanity!?!Constitution, as defined by the PHB v3.5, is a measure of health and stamina. Strength, in comparison, is a measure of muscle and physical power. Durability is not indicative of one's capacity for brute force. Your trouble lies in that you are equating fortitude with brawn; they are very different measures in game terms. :)
Alten_Freehands 02-21-07, 09:41 PM	I akin the Con Str difference to the Olympics. Look at the crazy distant races we'll go with the 25,000M now this is a pretty good distance. Now as the world knows Kenya dominates this distance why who in hades knows. Nonetheless the winners of this race are typically not the most physically intimidating individuals out there but when runners from other countries are passing out and going through heat stroke and othere madness theses Kenyan runners aren't even winded. Now did they win because they could throw a shotput 20+ meters, nope they one because their Constitution is second to none. Hope the visual helps
Arem_K 02-21-07, 09:48 PM	They're like vegetarians. Surprisingly healthy scrawny wimps.
TheCobra 02-21-07, 10:06 PM	I don't have any problem with low STR, high CON characters. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. For example, this is basically how Tolkien describes Hobbits. High STR, low CON characters, on the other hand, do seem a bit odd to me. Anyways, if it really bothers you, remember that, pound for pound, gnomes are stronger than humans.
ElberethSilverleaf 02-21-07, 10:36 PM	Alten_Freehands, that was an excellent example. The most obvious RW example is Lance Armstrong. I can't even guess what his constitution would be in D&D. He is obviously not a wimp, so maybe a 12 strength? But he isn't an incredibly strong guy. You won't see any of the guys able to pull cars in strongman competetions competing in the Tour de France.
MikeN 02-22-07, 01:35 AM	Attributes in D&D don't actually correspond to anything concrete. In defense of the system, it's pretty hard to make something that does. Something more "realistic" would be to combine Str and Con for damage-giving and damage-taking purposes, use something else to measure speed and stamina, and then use Dex for the "to-hit" bonus rather than strength. Call it something like: Physique = how much extra damage you can take and dish out Fitness = how long you can go on before fatigue and at what level (speed) you can do it in Dexterity = how easy it is for you to hit a target or avoid being one __________ Not only that, but Int, Wis, and Cha are as bad or worse than the physical stats. Perception, memory, speed of thought, and force of personality are hard to quantify though.
Naderion 02-22-07, 07:34 AM	Take back the racial adjustments of the particular character, then it's still ST 6 and CO 18. The base scores are weired, nott the modifications. :D Constitution is three things: - Ability to shrug of wounds. - Endurance - Ability to cope with disease and poison. The first thing might be a bit out of place in a short gnome, but the other two are just their special anatomy. To the kenyan runners: Most parts of Kenya are at very high altitude, so the people there are used to very thin air, that means they naturally have strong hearts and lungs, I think. Also, most people there are poor. They don't have cars, bikes or horses, so they have to cross distances by foot. They have basically trained every day since they can walk. Mist big races are at a much more lower altitude than Kenya, so while other runners have to deal with their usual conditions, they have much more better conditions then they are used to, because of the much higher amount of oxygen in the air.
Pezix 02-22-07, 07:43 AM	..So like Gnomes and basically Dwarven-Halfings,.... High con from the dwarven side, low strength from the halfling side,.. wierd head from the halfling side,. always have GO-TEEs from the Dwarven side,....its what it is man:cool:
Seldriss 02-22-07, 07:44 AM	I know that's not the point of the thread, but i personally give gnomes +2 to Int rather than Con. It fits better their culture based upon crafting and magic, in my opinion.
CaoSlayer 02-22-07, 11:06 AM	That gnome is just fat, tons of grease and meat for protection and few muscle (or all muscle power busy trying to move himself).
Orchomenos 02-22-07, 11:25 AM	High STR, low CON characters, on the other hand, do seem a bit odd to me. This would be the difference between a weightlifter and a World's Strongest Man athlete. The weightlifter is built and trainned to lift this freacking heavy bar once, then throw it on the ground, winded; this is High STR, Low CON. The World's Strongest Man athlete is built and trainned to lift this same freacking heavy bar, and draw it on a 100 yards distance, then lift another freacking heavier bar, and draw it back the same 100 yards distance; this is High STR, High CON.
Jerks 02-22-07, 01:30 PM	Gnomes kinda bug me. They often come off to me as nothing more than a mix of human-dwarf and halfling stats/cultures, and their favorite class is bard. Even their look now-a-days is a bit to generic, looking like short elves or tall halflings. Back in the day they looked like the pitchman from Travelocity. Ugly, but they had a bit of character. Maybe I just need to read some really good fiction staring a gnome. All the other core races have proud literary traditions. Heck, look at what Drizzt did for Drow. Gnomes need a Drizzt.
jimthegray 02-22-07, 03:48 PM	They're like vegetarians. Surprisingly healthy scrawny wimps. nah it because they run from a very young age, every day. humans are the best long distance runners on the earth, but most people only run occasionally
Grod_The_Giant 02-22-07, 04:31 PM	I know that's not the point of the thread, but i personally give gnomes +2 to Int rather than Con. It fits better their culture based upon crafting and magic, in my opinion. I give +2 Cha. It fits their culture as mischevious pranksters.
mrpopstar 02-22-07, 04:33 PM	It simplifies things to view Gnomes as being sturdier than your average human, as exemplified by their +2 CON adjustment, and physically weaker than your average human, as defined by their -2 STR. The constitution adjustment honors their toughness; they are steadfast little buggers. The strength adjustment basically lends to the fact that, considering their small stature, they are not as strong as your average human (a larger humanoid). :) I disagree with giving Gnomes a +2 INT adjustment based on their "interest in" or "fascination with" alchemy and inventing. They are not as interested in magic as they are simply "magical" (as defined by Spell-Like Ability Racial Trait). Also, they are reckless, inquisitive, and prefer to learn via personal experience. Above average INT would have one acting in a different manner, in my own opinion. :)
Wolf72 02-23-07, 05:25 PM	people from Kenya aren't necessarily better runners ... they just had (have) a few dedicated sporstman who trained really hard. ... and high altitude training is a myth. training at a normal/lower altitude is better b/c it trains your body to absorb more oxygen
AMGriffin 02-23-07, 07:35 PM	I disagree with giving Gnomes a +2 INT adjustment based on their "interest in" or "fascination with" alchemy and inventing. They are not as interested in magic as they are simply "magical" (as defined by Spell-Like Ability Racial Trait). Also, they are reckless, inquisitive, and prefer to learn via personal experience. Above average INT would have one acting in a different manner, in my own opinion. :)[/indent] That definition lends gnomes have a bonus to intelligence. ...But a penalty to wisdom as well :) You can be really smart, learn things quickly, have a dictionary worthy vocabulary, and read physics for fun. Though at the end of the day lack any form of common sense.
monkofcuthbert4684 02-23-07, 08:50 PM	That definition lends gnomes have a bonus to intelligence. ...But a penalty to wisdom as well :) You can be really smart, learn things quickly, have a dictionary worthy vocabulary, and read physics for fun. Though at the end of the day lack any form of common sense. That's actually what they have in 2nd Ed., only with +1 (like they always used to)
3DJutsu 02-23-07, 08:57 PM	High STR, low CON characters, on the other hand, do seem a bit odd to me. Steroids? That or Powerhouses suceptible to sickness
AMGriffin 02-23-07, 10:03 PM	High Strength low consitution is one of the more fickle stat couplings. The only race that comes to mind (for me) with +2 strength, -2 Constitution is the wood elf, and wood elves don't make much sense to me as it is :( I guess I'd justify high strength and low con having alot of strength, but perhaps not muscle tone or endurance. High strength and low dexterity and constitution probably implies you're a big fat guy who just pushes his sheer girth into everything.
monkofcuthbert4684 02-24-07, 01:48 PM	High strength and low dexterity and constitution probably implies you're a big fat guy who just pushes his sheer girth into everything. That's totally my brother! I am now sane again. Thanks!
zook1shoe666 02-24-07, 02:16 PM	That definition lends gnomes have a bonus to intelligence. ...But a penalty to wisdom as well :) You can be really smart, learn things quickly, have a dictionary worthy vocabulary, and read physics for fun. Though at the end of the day lack any form of common sense. in one of the older Dragon mags... there was the Arcane Gnome. -2 str, +2 con, +2 int, -2 wis. i think its perfect for the "basic" Gnome conce3pt
SokenzanMarauder 02-24-07, 03:01 PM	I've been wondering why they switched Gnomes over to a constitution bonus. What I think it should be is an intelligence bonus and switch their favored class back to Illusionist like it used to be. Further, what happened to the huge noses? I used to love how Gnomes used to look, now they're almost like midget elves. -Gene
AMGriffin 02-24-07, 03:09 PM	I'd guess they were given "normal" noses because it would make them seem more serious. Gnomes and Halflings in 2E were both kinda silly and hard to take seriously
Jaxgaret 02-24-07, 03:55 PM	High Str, Low Con can be easily reckoned as a large, fat person. Or simply a person physically strong, but with little pain threshold. Or susceptible to getting sick, or healing slowly. Constantly having colds (or worse illnesses) or having old wounds that have not healed properly will leave one easier to slay on the battlefield.
SokenzanMarauder 02-24-07, 04:17 PM	I'd guess they were given "normal" noses because it would make them seem more serious. Gnomes and Halflings in 2E were both kinda silly and hard to take seriously I always thought that was part of their charm. :P -Gene
Sudnji_cas 02-24-07, 09:44 PM	But what do High STR and DEX and low CON and vice versa means?
Wolf72 02-24-07, 09:48 PM	But what do High STR and DEX and low CON and vice versa means? you're a feather weight boxer ... float like a butterfly, sting like a bee ... but don't get hit (wolf thinks of movie "Great White Hype")
Wraithcat* 02-25-07, 10:34 AM	Having seen many recruits come through the Army, I have seen both high strength, low con and high con, low strength many times in real life. The high strength, low con guys are usually the sort who press weights in the gym, can powerlift a tank, but fall by the wayside the first time they have to do a forced march, or run for a bit. Sadly and tragically, many of these guys have spent a heap of time building muscle, but haven't actually done enough arobic exersise to develop the blood supply, or oxygen carrying capacity to carry all the muscle effectively for any period of time. These guys often come in thinking that they will rule the roost physically, but get a shock when they find they collapse in a heap. The reverse tend to be the sort who have done things like cross country running, swimming, or even just riding a bike to work. They are often fairly thin and don't have the muscle mass of the other guys and while strong for thier size, couldn't lift the same weight. They can however keep on running, forced marching, or just about anything else until the cows come home and often perform better during training for that reason. Ironically enough, these guys are often just as surprised as the first lot, who they are surprised to find themselves outperforming. Now, as far as low dex is concerned, that seems to fairly much sum up all of them, particularly just after they've been handed a rifle for the first time. Sometimes I believe the medics select them on the basis of thier having more than one left foot. Some, I would swear had at least 5 or 8 of the things... :rolleyes: Also, good marathon runners have different muscle fibres to the sprinters. Can't remember how it works of the top of my head, but certain types of muscle are good for sprinting and others for long distance running. I understand that certain genetic groupings have different proportions of those, which is why Kenyans seem to produce the large number of long distance runners that they do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_fiber Of course not having a real flash public transport system might also have something to do with it...
Isomer 02-25-07, 04:44 PM	They're like vegetarians. Surprisingly healthy scrawny wimps. Suprisingly native Kenyians (the ones that look scrawny but can go forever) work off of a diet that is almost exclusively meat and dairy. The high con has more to do with the hot and rugged country they live in.
AMGriffin 02-25-07, 04:55 PM	Kenyans also run...and do nothing but run. They get up and run then go to bed, get up and run some more, and that would probably be way better for your ability to run then something like your diet (which is pretty vague anyway, your body can process and filter most of the stuff you really don't need unless you violently abuse it, something most kenyans probably don't have the luxury of doing.)
Werral 02-25-07, 06:20 PM	I'd guess they were given "normal" noses because it would make them seem more serious. Gnomes and Halflings in 2E were both kinda silly and hard to take seriously So why +2 alchemy "because they have big noses" if they don't?
zook1shoe666 02-25-07, 07:04 PM	So why +2 alchemy "because they have big noses" if they don't? its their sense of smell.... and has nothing to do with the size of the nose.
ElberethSilverleaf 02-25-07, 11:23 PM	Give me hairy footed halflings & big nosed illusionist gnomes anyday.....
SokenzanMarauder 02-25-07, 11:36 PM	Give me hairy footed halflings & big nosed illusionist gnomes anyday..... Here here! -Gene
Donald_Cannith 02-25-07, 11:58 PM	Hell yeah lets get dragonlance out of our base D and D. If i want kender ill do dragonlance. I want my garden gnome tricksters and naturalists. i want my Hobbit Pot belied Rogue. i want Greyhawk back!!
zook1shoe666 02-26-07, 09:51 AM	yeah i agree... cheers for the hobbit-style halflings
ElberethSilverleaf 02-26-07, 08:18 PM	Every campaign I've ran, Greyhawk or Faerun, the players who wanted halflings wanted "hobbits", not smaller versions of gnomes. I allow gnomes to chose bard or illusionist as their favored class after 3e.
monkofcuthbert4684 02-28-07, 04:37 PM	Give me hairy footed halflings & big nosed illusionist gnomes anyday..... Hobbits are awesome. But what are their stats? I mean, their so fat, so can they have a bonus dex? I edited this to ask anyone who has an answer to my question to go to the post "Hobbits" (obviously under races) to answer there so we can stick to the original topic of the post.
The Ubbergeek 02-28-07, 04:59 PM	Every campaign I've ran, Greyhawk or Faerun, the players who wanted halflings wanted "hobbits", not smaller versions of gnomes. I allow gnomes to chose bard or illusionist as their favored class after 3e. I tell you why. Those are NOT adventurer races, really... And Tolkienism. D&D wanted to get away from stereotypical and overrused Tolkienisms. It's not bad - the new halflings are not kneders, but an interesting mix of the classic halfling and kendereques (the best ones!) points. And gnomes are no less clich�ed David the Gnomes or Tinker Gnomes, but likewise, a mix. Is change bad? Why not? Like I say toward elves, it's D&D, not Tolkien. Never be, and that's how it is.
monkofcuthbert4684 02-28-07, 05:01 PM	I don't know, isn't DnD supposed to be partially based on LOTR?
The Ubbergeek 02-28-07, 08:21 PM	I don't know, isn't DnD supposed to be partially based on LOTR? Yeah, but it never was to BE a LOTR rpg. Since the start, there had been also other influences and tolkienism where given a twist; remember that in LOTR, elves are not mortals but spirits in flesh? And along the years, the writters had made efforts (partialy because the Tolkien estate fought a legal battle in the early years with TSR) to make D&D it's own entity, creatively... Not a LOTR clone. To divert from Tolkien's works.
scienceman47 03-01-07, 01:47 AM	Halflings are currently gypsies, which makes sense for a race that produces so many rogues. Gnomes kinda lack a certain panache in greyhawk. In ebberon, they turn into little machiavellies. Ambitious and scheming.
Zumarai 03-01-07, 08:28 AM	Now as the world knows Kenya dominates this distance why who in hades knows. While my wife is Kenyan (half Masai/half kikuyu) and she is freakishly quick, and can run or walk forever, I don't know if it's a genetic predisposition or if it is because of the history of the Masai covering great distances for hunting/grazing areas for their cattle.