Gnomes as bards,what the heck?! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gnomes as bards,what the heck?! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bigsnarf
06-09-07, 01:57 PM Why is bard the preferred class for gnomes?Back long ago gnomes where thought of as inventors and illusionists.You would think a halfling would make a better bard because they are nomadic gypsies in 3.5.
Salla
06-09-07, 02:05 PM Partially because illusionist isn't a real class; it's a wizard, and they didn't want to duplicate favored classes in the PHB. 'Inventor' never really works, because D&D doesn't advance technology, it advances magic. Tinker Gnomes are a Dragonlance thing.

Bards do get a fair amount of illusion magic as well, so it still fits nicely.
SokenzanMarauder
06-09-07, 02:06 PM Why is bard the preferred class for gnomes?Back long ago gnomes where thought of as inventors and illusionists.You would think a halfling would make a better bard because they are nomadic gypsies in 3.5.
'Tis what house rules are for my friend.

In my games they get a the following:

Ability Mods: +2 int, -2 con
Racial Abilities: As before
Favored Class: Wizard (Illusionist (ex. Wizard specialized in illusion))

I really don't like what's been done with Gnomes in 3rd-3.5.

-Gene
ArcTan
06-09-07, 02:09 PM Why is bard the preferred class for gnomes?Back long ago gnomes where thought of as inventors and illusionists.You would think a halfling would make a better bard because they are nomadic gypsies in 3.5.

Bards are clever tinkerers (or can be, if you play them with the appropriate Craft skills) and are also adept illusionists. It makes more sense and is more interesting than another Favored Class (Wizard) race.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
06-09-07, 02:12 PM 'Tis what house rules are for my friend.

In my games they get a the following:

Ability Mods: +2 int, -2 con
Racial Abilities: As before
Favored Class: Wizard (Illusionist (ex. Wizard specialized in illusion))

I really don't like what's been done with Gnomes in 3rd-3.5.

-Gene

I do that, but I keep the -2 STR. I do so love gnomes.
bigsnarf
06-09-07, 02:23 PM But bards are all"look at me,Im singing while wearing a silk vests and a pair of hose and going,fraa la laa la!"Whatever happen to David the Gnome?Now he was cooool!When I make a gnome,they dress like the ones in your moms backyard and smoke pipes!
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
06-09-07, 02:29 PM But bards are all"look at me,Im singing while wearing a silk vests and a pair of hose and going,fraa la laa la!"Whatever happen to David the Gnome?Now he was cooool!When I make a gnome,they dress like the ones in your moms backyard and smoke pipes!

No. No, damn you, no. Bards are the masters of social interaction and inspiration. They augment that mastery with magic.

And about the singing thing:

Perform (Cha)

Like Craft, Knowledge, and Profession, Perform is actually a number of separate skills.

You could have several Perform skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill.

Each of the nine categories of the Perform skill includes a variety of methods, instruments, or techniques, a small list of which is provided for each category below.

* Act (comedy, drama, mime)
* Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling)
* Dance (ballet, waltz, jig)
* Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ)
* Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)
* Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong)
* String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin)
* Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, shawm, trumpet)
* Sing (ballad, chant, melody)

The rules. They are so fun to read.

And for the love of God, use spaces!
bigsnarf
06-09-07, 02:34 PM But what about David the Gnome?He kicked troll butts!
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
06-09-07, 02:35 PM But what about David the Gnome?He kicked troll butts!

...Great for him...

Spaces!
bigsnarf
06-09-07, 02:42 PM But really,back to the real question.I never play bards and after you "educated" me,they do make sense.DAVID RULES!!!!!

Spaces,NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Orion Polaris
06-09-07, 02:50 PM I never got why Elves were Wizards in the first place. They should be Favoured class Rangers, and Gnomes should get Wizard.

No one should have the horridly designed class that is the bard foisted upon them.
Orion Polaris
06-09-07, 04:26 PM I don't know why my post was like that at all. O_O. I previewed it and everything and the spaces were there beforehand.
Peregrine_Wolf
06-09-07, 04:33 PM I never gotwhy Elves were Wizards in the first place. They should be Favouredclass Rangers, and Gnomesshould get Wizard.

No one should have the horridly designed class that isthe bard foisted upon them.

Although I dislike religion almost to the point of hatred.....AMEN :bow: I agree with everything Orion Polaris has said in this post.
Zaver
06-09-07, 04:44 PM What does it really matter? Favored classes are about the most useless thing in the entire game.
Toran_A_Sunder
06-09-07, 05:14 PM Dude...Bard. Rocks. Not horribly designed. They are perfectly designed for what they are supposed to be. They are not blasters. They are not warriors. They are entertainers, tricksters, storytellers. They are illusionists, scoundrels, and a whole mess of other stuff.

Just because a class doesn't get a ton of damage dealing abilities doesn't mean they are a poorly designed class. Every bard I have made has excelled in what they were designed to be: a face for the party, a diplomat, and an entertainer.
bigsnarf
06-09-07, 10:27 PM Whenever I tried to play a bard I get stuck,I just know how to play one.I think its one of those classes that only a few can roleplay well.When it comes to a fight,the rogue seems a better choice,and for spells its the wizard or cleric.Im only looking from a dungeon crawl point of veiw.What is the right way to play a bard?I gots ta know.
Zardnaar
06-10-07, 01:16 AM Whenever I tried to play a bard I get stuck,I just know how to play one.I think its one of those classes that only a few can roleplay well.When it comes to a fight,the rogue seems a better choice,and for spells its the wizard or cleric.Im only looking from a dungeon crawl point of veiw.What is the right way to play a bard?I gots ta know.

Great 5th party memeber. The face of the party and a buff machine via music/magic. At low levels can replae the wizard in a party and maybe even at higher levels as well. Trying to skirmish or deal alot of damage with one is a bit pointless unless you're very good at min maxing. We had one that could give the party +8 to hit and damage and often dealt around 80 damage per round by herself via rapid shot and haste.
CaoSlayer
06-10-07, 03:11 AM But bards are all"look at me,Im singing while wearing a silk vests and a pair of hose and going,fraa la laa la!"Whatever happen to David the Gnome?Now he was cooool!When I make a gnome,they dress like the ones in your moms backyard and smoke pipes!

And a wizard is a man in a dress.
shades of eternity
06-10-07, 10:20 AM blah, it was pure elven propaganda why elves got preferred class wizard.

elves preferred class should be sorceror (to show their connection to the arcane and the fey)

gnomes should be preferred class wizard (to show how annoying they are with prep time).
Braekor Dragonfang
06-10-07, 10:38 AM And a wizard is a man in a dress.

How Dare You Sir! (Oh no! Have they figured it out?! No, no, of course not... I must go gorge myself with comfort food to reassure myself!)
Khoran
06-10-07, 11:42 AM Dude...Bard. Rocks. Not horribly designed. They are perfectly designed for what they are supposed to be. They are not blasters. They are not warriors. They are entertainers, tricksters, storytellers. They are illusionists, scoundrels, and a whole mess of other stuff.

Just because a class doesn't get a ton of damage dealing abilities doesn't mean they are a poorly designed class. Every bard I have made has excelled in what they were designed to be: a face for the party, a diplomat, and an entertainer.

This man speaks the truth. Also, Bard abilities can be used really well for large scale combats. You can, if done correctly, turn a mob of semi-intelligent monsters against each other.

Not to mention their versatility with their spells. Yes, they don't get many save/die or blasting spells, but they get lots of buffs for the party, illusions to trick the enemy and also, cure spells incase something is going horribly wrong.

People who say bards are weak have never seen it done properly.
Zaver
06-10-07, 12:33 PM People who say bards are weak have never seen it done properly.

Or have had DMs that don't care to give bards what they should have. A good DM can have a campaign turn on what a bard knows with bardic knowledge. I mean, how hard is it to have the players get hired by a wizard to do something that seems harmless and then have the bard roll his knowledge and say "I've heard about this guy, I think he's a lich."
Toran_A_Sunder
06-10-07, 12:38 PM This man speaks the truth. Also, Bard abilities can be used really well for large scale combats. You can, if done correctly, turn a mob of semi-intelligent monsters against each other.

Not to mention their versatility with their spells. Yes, they don't get many save/die or blasting spells, but they get lots of buffs for the party, illusions to trick the enemy and also, cure spells incase something is going horribly wrong.

People who say bards are weak have never seen it done properly.

Sing it Brother Khoran! Sing it loud!:cheer:
Gray Mouser
06-10-07, 01:20 PM I have playing a bard (well, mostly bard- bard7/rogue3/swashbuckler3) for years and years (in fact, he was my very first 3rd edition character, when the PHB was the ONLY book in existence, that and the conversion booklet.) Even though my DM in that campaign makes heavy use of constructs and undead, and the spells and class features of all 3 of my classes are entirely useless, I still have a blast playing him. He is the spokesman and historian of the party. His vanity is legendary, I even keep close track of all the combs, brushes, and vials of perfume that he owns. Occasionally, he has even contributed in very unlikely ways- he once saved the entire party with Ghost Sound.
But he isn't a gnome- so I guess I'm way off topic. I have played many gnomes over the years though, my favorite race. I think of gnomes as sneaky, socially adept, and skilled at illusion and enchantment. Sound like any class you can think of?
CaoSlayer
06-10-07, 03:41 PM Well, gnomes synergy with bards because the focus of the class with illusions, bards gets most illusion spells and benefit greatly from the racial bonus of the gnome.

In the other hand, gnome is the scoundrel race, isnt a race of great warriors and they are famous for having a great oratory. Bards works well for adventurers gnomes because it combine the main features of a gnome: knowledge and trickery.

By the way Im the kind of person who would give a gnome the stats of -2 str, +2 int and -2 wisdom.
penchant
06-10-07, 04:03 PM David the Gnome, was not a gnome. He was a subrace called Forest Gnome. Its in the Monster Manual.
bigsnarf
06-10-07, 05:59 PM Missed that one.Ohhhhh how I miss David the Gnome,he's my hero.
Salla
06-10-07, 06:17 PM elves preferred class should be sorceror (to show their connection to the arcane and the fey).

What connection to the fey? There's nothing any sourcebook I've ever read that indicates elves have any connections to fay.
jakelslang21
06-10-07, 06:36 PM What connection to the fey? There's nothing any sourcebook I've ever read that indicates elves have any connections to fay.

I think he is talking about the classic elf that was a fairytale like creature. In that one play made by Shakespeare Midsummer Nights Dream I beleive most of the fey that were in the play were elfs and had magical powers naturally.

As for gnome bards... I think they work nicely as bards mainly because of their personality and their culture. But hey, thats just me... One time I played a drow bard who was the worst bard but was a lot of fun to play. I think bards are fun to play in general, even if your attributes, skills, spell selection etc are out of wack and have no benefit to your character... :D
Salla
06-10-07, 06:39 PM I think he is talking about the classic elf that was a fairytale like creature. In that one play made by Shakespeare Midsummer Nights Dream I beleive most of the fey that were in the play were elfs and had magical powers naturally.

Yeah, but we're talking D&D here, not Shakespeare or Tolkien or the Brothers Grimm. :)
Zousha_Omenohu
06-10-07, 06:55 PM Technically if it weren't for Tolkien we wouldn't have the elves and orcs (or much at all of what makes the foundations of this illustrious game for that matter) to begin with.
Gray Mouser
06-10-07, 09:06 PM Technically, that's not relevant. :D

If D&D were Tolkien, elves would have a +8 LA and Produce Flame would be an epic spell.

I love Tolkien, but thank god D&D is not just an RPG of his writing. Its race, class, monster, and magic structures also owe a great debt to Howard, Lovecraft, Moorcock, and Leiber.

I'm sure this has been discussed ad infinitum on other threads already, however.
GypsyComet
06-10-07, 09:50 PM Yeah, but we're talking D&D here, not Shakespeare or Tolkien or the Brothers Grimm. :)

Considering that the gnome in its D&D form was invented by the same well known Norse Folklore scholar who basically invented the D&D Paladin, and D&Ds elves track their ancestry most clearly to the Norse Alfar through Tolkien, SOME reference to the Fey is certainly not a mistake.

I generally consider the Elves and Gnomes to be the "most mortal" expressions of the Highborn and Lowborn Fey, respectively, though they often don't recognize the lineage and are no longer considered subjects of any of the Fey Courts. Elven philosophers opine that the general sense of decline among the elves is a racial psychological reaction to the transition, many generations ago, from Fey to Mortal. By comparison, the gnomes didn't have any "high culture" to lose, and don't miss it at the racial memory level the way the elves do.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bigsnarf 06-09-07, 01:57 PM	Why is bard the preferred class for gnomes?Back long ago gnomes where thought of as inventors and illusionists.You would think a halfling would make a better bard because they are nomadic gypsies in 3.5.
Salla 06-09-07, 02:05 PM	Partially because illusionist isn't a real class; it's a wizard, and they didn't want to duplicate favored classes in the PHB. 'Inventor' never really works, because D&D doesn't advance technology, it advances magic. Tinker Gnomes are a Dragonlance thing. Bards do get a fair amount of illusion magic as well, so it still fits nicely.
SokenzanMarauder 06-09-07, 02:06 PM	Why is bard the preferred class for gnomes?Back long ago gnomes where thought of as inventors and illusionists.You would think a halfling would make a better bard because they are nomadic gypsies in 3.5. 'Tis what house rules are for my friend. In my games they get a the following: Ability Mods: +2 int, -2 con Racial Abilities: As before Favored Class: Wizard (Illusionist (ex. Wizard specialized in illusion)) I really don't like what's been done with Gnomes in 3rd-3.5. -Gene
ArcTan 06-09-07, 02:09 PM	Why is bard the preferred class for gnomes?Back long ago gnomes where thought of as inventors and illusionists.You would think a halfling would make a better bard because they are nomadic gypsies in 3.5. Bards are clever tinkerers (or can be, if you play them with the appropriate Craft skills) and are also adept illusionists. It makes more sense and is more interesting than another Favored Class (Wizard) race.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 02:12 PM	'Tis what house rules are for my friend. In my games they get a the following: Ability Mods: +2 int, -2 con Racial Abilities: As before Favored Class: Wizard (Illusionist (ex. Wizard specialized in illusion)) I really don't like what's been done with Gnomes in 3rd-3.5. -Gene I do that, but I keep the -2 STR. I do so love gnomes.
bigsnarf 06-09-07, 02:23 PM	But bards are all"look at me,Im singing while wearing a silk vests and a pair of hose and going,fraa la laa la!"Whatever happen to David the Gnome?Now he was cooool!When I make a gnome,they dress like the ones in your moms backyard and smoke pipes!
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 02:29 PM	But bards are all"look at me,Im singing while wearing a silk vests and a pair of hose and going,fraa la laa la!"Whatever happen to David the Gnome?Now he was cooool!When I make a gnome,they dress like the ones in your moms backyard and smoke pipes! No. No, damn you, no. Bards are the masters of social interaction and inspiration. They augment that mastery with magic. And about the singing thing: Perform (Cha) Like Craft, Knowledge, and Profession, Perform is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Perform skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. Each of the nine categories of the Perform skill includes a variety of methods, instruments, or techniques, a small list of which is provided for each category below. * Act (comedy, drama, mime) * Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling) * Dance (ballet, waltz, jig) * Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ) * Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling) * Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong) * String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin) * Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, shawm, trumpet) * Sing (ballad, chant, melody) The rules. They are so fun to read. And for the love of God, use spaces!
bigsnarf 06-09-07, 02:34 PM	But what about David the Gnome?He kicked troll butts!
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 02:35 PM	But what about David the Gnome?He kicked troll butts! ...Great for him... Spaces!
bigsnarf 06-09-07, 02:42 PM	But really,back to the real question.I never play bards and after you "educated" me,they do make sense.DAVID RULES!!!!! Spaces,NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Orion Polaris 06-09-07, 02:50 PM	I never got why Elves were Wizards in the first place. They should be Favoured class Rangers, and Gnomes should get Wizard. No one should have the horridly designed class that is the bard foisted upon them.
Orion Polaris 06-09-07, 04:26 PM	I don't know why my post was like that at all. O_O. I previewed it and everything and the spaces were there beforehand.
Peregrine_Wolf 06-09-07, 04:33 PM	I never gotwhy Elves were Wizards in the first place. They should be Favouredclass Rangers, and Gnomesshould get Wizard. No one should have the horridly designed class that isthe bard foisted upon them. Although I dislike religion almost to the point of hatred.....AMEN :bow: I agree with everything Orion Polaris has said in this post.
Zaver 06-09-07, 04:44 PM	What does it really matter? Favored classes are about the most useless thing in the entire game.
Toran_A_Sunder 06-09-07, 05:14 PM	Dude...Bard. Rocks. Not horribly designed. They are perfectly designed for what they are supposed to be. They are not blasters. They are not warriors. They are entertainers, tricksters, storytellers. They are illusionists, scoundrels, and a whole mess of other stuff. Just because a class doesn't get a ton of damage dealing abilities doesn't mean they are a poorly designed class. Every bard I have made has excelled in what they were designed to be: a face for the party, a diplomat, and an entertainer.
bigsnarf 06-09-07, 10:27 PM	Whenever I tried to play a bard I get stuck,I just know how to play one.I think its one of those classes that only a few can roleplay well.When it comes to a fight,the rogue seems a better choice,and for spells its the wizard or cleric.Im only looking from a dungeon crawl point of veiw.What is the right way to play a bard?I gots ta know.
Zardnaar 06-10-07, 01:16 AM	Whenever I tried to play a bard I get stuck,I just know how to play one.I think its one of those classes that only a few can roleplay well.When it comes to a fight,the rogue seems a better choice,and for spells its the wizard or cleric.Im only looking from a dungeon crawl point of veiw.What is the right way to play a bard?I gots ta know. Great 5th party memeber. The face of the party and a buff machine via music/magic. At low levels can replae the wizard in a party and maybe even at higher levels as well. Trying to skirmish or deal alot of damage with one is a bit pointless unless you're very good at min maxing. We had one that could give the party +8 to hit and damage and often dealt around 80 damage per round by herself via rapid shot and haste.
CaoSlayer 06-10-07, 03:11 AM	But bards are all"look at me,Im singing while wearing a silk vests and a pair of hose and going,fraa la laa la!"Whatever happen to David the Gnome?Now he was cooool!When I make a gnome,they dress like the ones in your moms backyard and smoke pipes! And a wizard is a man in a dress.
shades of eternity 06-10-07, 10:20 AM	blah, it was pure elven propaganda why elves got preferred class wizard. elves preferred class should be sorceror (to show their connection to the arcane and the fey) gnomes should be preferred class wizard (to show how annoying they are with prep time).
Braekor Dragonfang 06-10-07, 10:38 AM	And a wizard is a man in a dress. How Dare You Sir! (Oh no! Have they figured it out?! No, no, of course not... I must go gorge myself with comfort food to reassure myself!)
Khoran 06-10-07, 11:42 AM	Dude...Bard. Rocks. Not horribly designed. They are perfectly designed for what they are supposed to be. They are not blasters. They are not warriors. They are entertainers, tricksters, storytellers. They are illusionists, scoundrels, and a whole mess of other stuff. Just because a class doesn't get a ton of damage dealing abilities doesn't mean they are a poorly designed class. Every bard I have made has excelled in what they were designed to be: a face for the party, a diplomat, and an entertainer. This man speaks the truth. Also, Bard abilities can be used really well for large scale combats. You can, if done correctly, turn a mob of semi-intelligent monsters against each other. Not to mention their versatility with their spells. Yes, they don't get many save/die or blasting spells, but they get lots of buffs for the party, illusions to trick the enemy and also, cure spells incase something is going horribly wrong. People who say bards are weak have never seen it done properly.
Zaver 06-10-07, 12:33 PM	People who say bards are weak have never seen it done properly. Or have had DMs that don't care to give bards what they should have. A good DM can have a campaign turn on what a bard knows with bardic knowledge. I mean, how hard is it to have the players get hired by a wizard to do something that seems harmless and then have the bard roll his knowledge and say "I've heard about this guy, I think he's a lich."
Toran_A_Sunder 06-10-07, 12:38 PM	This man speaks the truth. Also, Bard abilities can be used really well for large scale combats. You can, if done correctly, turn a mob of semi-intelligent monsters against each other. Not to mention their versatility with their spells. Yes, they don't get many save/die or blasting spells, but they get lots of buffs for the party, illusions to trick the enemy and also, cure spells incase something is going horribly wrong. People who say bards are weak have never seen it done properly. Sing it Brother Khoran! Sing it loud!:cheer:
Gray Mouser 06-10-07, 01:20 PM	I have playing a bard (well, mostly bard- bard7/rogue3/swashbuckler3) for years and years (in fact, he was my very first 3rd edition character, when the PHB was the ONLY book in existence, that and the conversion booklet.) Even though my DM in that campaign makes heavy use of constructs and undead, and the spells and class features of all 3 of my classes are entirely useless, I still have a blast playing him. He is the spokesman and historian of the party. His vanity is legendary, I even keep close track of all the combs, brushes, and vials of perfume that he owns. Occasionally, he has even contributed in very unlikely ways- he once saved the entire party with Ghost Sound. But he isn't a gnome- so I guess I'm way off topic. I have played many gnomes over the years though, my favorite race. I think of gnomes as sneaky, socially adept, and skilled at illusion and enchantment. Sound like any class you can think of?
CaoSlayer 06-10-07, 03:41 PM	Well, gnomes synergy with bards because the focus of the class with illusions, bards gets most illusion spells and benefit greatly from the racial bonus of the gnome. In the other hand, gnome is the scoundrel race, isnt a race of great warriors and they are famous for having a great oratory. Bards works well for adventurers gnomes because it combine the main features of a gnome: knowledge and trickery. By the way Im the kind of person who would give a gnome the stats of -2 str, +2 int and -2 wisdom.
penchant 06-10-07, 04:03 PM	David the Gnome, was not a gnome. He was a subrace called Forest Gnome. Its in the Monster Manual.
bigsnarf 06-10-07, 05:59 PM	Missed that one.Ohhhhh how I miss David the Gnome,he's my hero.
Salla 06-10-07, 06:17 PM	elves preferred class should be sorceror (to show their connection to the arcane and the fey). What connection to the fey? There's nothing any sourcebook I've ever read that indicates elves have any connections to fay.
jakelslang21 06-10-07, 06:36 PM	What connection to the fey? There's nothing any sourcebook I've ever read that indicates elves have any connections to fay. I think he is talking about the classic elf that was a fairytale like creature. In that one play made by Shakespeare Midsummer Nights Dream I beleive most of the fey that were in the play were elfs and had magical powers naturally. As for gnome bards... I think they work nicely as bards mainly because of their personality and their culture. But hey, thats just me... One time I played a drow bard who was the worst bard but was a lot of fun to play. I think bards are fun to play in general, even if your attributes, skills, spell selection etc are out of wack and have no benefit to your character... :D
Salla 06-10-07, 06:39 PM	I think he is talking about the classic elf that was a fairytale like creature. In that one play made by Shakespeare Midsummer Nights Dream I beleive most of the fey that were in the play were elfs and had magical powers naturally. Yeah, but we're talking D&D here, not Shakespeare or Tolkien or the Brothers Grimm. :)
Zousha_Omenohu 06-10-07, 06:55 PM	Technically if it weren't for Tolkien we wouldn't have the elves and orcs (or much at all of what makes the foundations of this illustrious game for that matter) to begin with.
Gray Mouser 06-10-07, 09:06 PM	Technically, that's not relevant. :D If D&D were Tolkien, elves would have a +8 LA and Produce Flame would be an epic spell. I love Tolkien, but thank god D&D is not just an RPG of his writing. Its race, class, monster, and magic structures also owe a great debt to Howard, Lovecraft, Moorcock, and Leiber. I'm sure this has been discussed ad infinitum on other threads already, however.
GypsyComet 06-10-07, 09:50 PM	Yeah, but we're talking D&D here, not Shakespeare or Tolkien or the Brothers Grimm. :) Considering that the gnome in its D&D form was invented by the same well known Norse Folklore scholar who basically invented the D&D Paladin, and D&Ds elves track their ancestry most clearly to the Norse Alfar through Tolkien, SOME reference to the Fey is certainly not a mistake. I generally consider the Elves and Gnomes to be the "most mortal" expressions of the Highborn and Lowborn Fey, respectively, though they often don't recognize the lineage and are no longer considered subjects of any of the Fey Courts. Elven philosophers opine that the general sense of decline among the elves is a racial psychological reaction to the transition, many generations ago, from Fey to Mortal. By comparison, the gnomes didn't have any "high culture" to lose, and don't miss it at the racial memory level the way the elves do.