Gnomish Fey [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gnomish Fey [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
VanGrue
11-25-07, 06:38 PM Ok, I've tried searching for answers on the best way to go about this, and I've found little among the books and posts to get what I want.
I'm going to be joining a campaign soon at low-level (everyone is currently about halfway to level 5) with the intent of playing a beguiler. When trying to find a more interesting race to play as, in relation to the beguiler's personality and knowing some of the other characters, I found Gnome seems the best choice. However, even before that, I began playing around with options, and came upon the half-fey template (FF 89-90, or online (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf)) . The flavor seemed perfect for what I wanted to do with the character, basically being a clever trickster with a love for nature.

However, at such a low-level, a +2 LA is a pretty steep handicap. I like the template's abilities (wings, spell-like abilities, etc), but found myself willing to part with some of them. I spoke with the DM and he agreed to allow me to create a "Lesser Half-fey" template, like the "Lesser" LA races from PGtF (pg. 190). I may even just work it into its own custom race, a LA +1 "Gnomish Half-fey" as it were. At first I figured it would be easy; remove a few features and call it LA +1. However, I keep going back and tweaking it. I'm afraid of it being too powerful and drawing the ire of my fellow players, but I don't want to lose key parts of my build.

I think the main problem is that there are no official rules for figuring out how to balance abilities and traits for different degrees of level adjustment. I started by reducing the ability scores, rebalancing them, and removing most of the damage reduction (DR 5/cold-iron is definitely high for a low-level character). At first I figured that would do it well enough to get it down to LA +1 (considering that DR is a fairly valuable trait), and the DM even approved these changes. Still, I know that having a race/template with wings and a fly-speed with good maneuverability, remaining ability mods, and spell-like abilities is still over-powered for LA+1.

So, in the interest of fairness to the other players in the campaign, I want to further work on the build. I've provided you with a link to a document including the Half-Fey template, and I'm asking for your help. How would you reduce the template to allow for a single reduction in level adjustment? I've tried, and I know the best answer is probably to remove either the wings or Spell-like abilities, but I can't stand to lose them.

So, should I gimp the wings and have them improve over time? Should I remove the SLAs, or reduce them? I like the idea of having them to supplement my beguiler spells, effectively giving me an extra use of a couple spells and adding slightly to my repertoire, but I know some of the higher-level SLAs are powerful. At one point, I was thinking of maybe losing the higher-level SLAs and keeping just the level 1 ones, or even just keeping the "Charm at will". I already reduced the Damage Reduction to 1/cold-iron down from the 5. DR is really nice to have, but I'm willing to part with it (if hesitantly!).

Does anyone have any insight they can provide into this?
INeedNoSalt
11-25-07, 08:12 PM Is that the half-fey template that gives Charm Person at will at like 2nd level?

I wouldn't let a player touch that.
HernetheHunter
11-26-07, 01:18 AM I would drop the wings. I have seen races with a LA+1 just because of Wings.

Suggestion would be to pick a specific fey creature you are descended from or have the DM decide and modify the spell-likes to reflect that lineage or perhaps sub the gnome slas as the first few. As for the DR ask your DM if 1/cold iron for every 5 levels gained would be inappropriate. You already have (depending on Gnomish subspecies) low-light vision. Maybe depending on the fey creature chosen you will flavor the PC possibly with other abilities beside Wings.
VanGrue
11-26-07, 04:56 AM Well, the DM likes to compensate for powerful PCs, so even if I go with what I've got it won't end up being too much of a difference. HernetheHunter's suggestions are pretty good, too.

Gnomes are vaguely fey-like humanoids as it is, so supplementing and replacing Gnome abilities/traits with fey ones seems appropriate.

The main problem when dealing with LA is that there's no way to standardize it. I think these suggestions and some other things I'm working on with the DM should help make this work though!
kwanzaabot
11-26-07, 07:42 AM http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=924252

This might be right up your alley. ;)
nighttree
11-26-07, 10:12 AM Option #2: Add the Unseelie template (Dragon Compendium) to a Gnome.
0 LA, turns type to fey, boosts dex and cha (you take a hit on Str, & Con), and gives you a few fey abilities.
DiceGolem
11-26-07, 12:27 PM ...why don't you just use the Feytouched race? (FF as well)
Essex
11-26-07, 12:51 PM I see two major options.

Option 1:
Use the Fey Bloodline from Unearthed Arcana. It comes in Minor (added abilities at every 4th level), Intermediate (added abilities at every 2nd level), and Major (added abilities at every level) levels. The Minor Bloodline will not require you to skip a class level until 12th level. The Intermediate Bloodline would require you to skip 6th and 12th levels. The Major Bloodline would require you to skip 3rd, 6th, and 12th levels. As a unique perk, Bloodline filler levels count towards maximum skill ranks (even though they don't grant skill points) and towards character abilities based upon level (such as caster level). So while you'll give up between one and three levels of Beguiler to take the Bloodline, you'll still be casting spells with a full CL.

Option 2:
Take the Fey Heritage feat from Complete Mage and supplement it with some of the other 4 heritage feats that have it as a prerequisite. Two of the feats grant three spell-like abilites, one grants DR/cold iron based upon the number of Fey Heritage feats you've taken, and another grants a +1 to enchantment spell DC's. You could also adapt some of the Abyssal Heritor feats from Fiendish Codex I and use them with the Fey Heritage feat. Cloak of the Obyrith, Keeper of Forbidden Lore, Otherworldly Countenance, Precognitive Visions, Primordial Scion, and Vestigial Wings could all easily apply to somebody descended from a fey creature.
VanGrue
11-26-07, 12:59 PM http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=924252

This might be right up your alley. ;)

Thanks, though I'm not specifically looking just for a fey race. The gnome's +1 to save DC on illusion spells helps quite a bit, so anything similarly in line with the concept of an illusionist/trickster.

Beyond that, Essex and Dicegolem provide good suggestions (though going feytouched means I'm medium size, and I'd like to stay Small if possible), as well as nighttree, though my character isn't evil or malicious, so I don't think being Unseelie in nature would fit. Plus, don't have Dragon Compendium. :)

I know it sounds greedy, but I'd also rather not have to give up feats, as for the Fey Heritage feats, and the bloodline really doesn't help now that I've looked at it. I probably won't get to play the character over a long enough time for it to be of use. Sorry!
teamfireyleader
11-26-07, 02:45 PM I think you need to look into specifics. Ancestry; is it a nymph then use the half nymph temp. If different then adjust acordingly. thorn ancestry, give grapple damge lethal + poison and that longsword thing. You see what i meen.
VanGrue
11-26-07, 03:33 PM I think you need to look into specifics. Ancestry; is it a nymph then use the half nymph temp. If different then adjust acordingly. thorn ancestry, give grapple damge lethal + poison and that longsword thing. You see what i meen.

I think I do. I guess I simply need to find the examples of different fey or fey-based templates and apply aspects of that toward what I want.

I think the preoccupation with the fly-speed was to overcome my complete inability to jump, as a small creature, and not being able to get a fly spell as a wizard or sorcerer. :)

Really, the character concept revolves around being a trickster, and I like the idea of a small race for the bonus to AC, but technically any sneaky or "clever" race or template works, even better if they have some bonus to AC.
HernetheHunter
11-26-07, 05:43 PM Go Half-Spriggan!!!

I have a half Spriggan character here somewhere. I always liked to get ahead via haste spells and then enlarging to wreak some havoc! The racial Sneak Attack rocks! But that doesn't help with your beguiler... If you have access to Dragon #355 (I think) they have a fey maniac called a springheel that may, DM permitted, grant a Jump bonus, along with possible spurts of maniacal behavior...
VanGrue
11-27-07, 03:08 AM (Just to emphasize the point, while I appreciate all the options being provided, and though I'm mentioning being sneaky and a trickster, it's a generally good-themed game, so things that are generally or blatantly evil or malicious most likely won't be considered.)

I could probably create a "Fey-born Gnome" race pretty easy too. Maybe just change the ability mods around, and replace the spell-like abilities of the gnome with the Fey Heritage feat. That would be a LA +0 race, and though I'd hate to waste feats to have to get those extra bonuses, that may be necessary.

If I wanted it to do this, and give the race wings that manifest after a certain amount of levels("HD"), would that end up increasing the LA, since eventually I'd get wings? Raptorans, for example, have wings from the start and can glide, gaining flight and improved flight later on, but RotW seems to imply there's no LA, though while they get some skill and caster bonuses, there are no ability mods. I'm sure this gets criticized on a regular basis (like most things). What are your thoughts?
Essex
11-27-07, 10:58 AM Do you simply want wings or the ability to fly?

If all you want is wings, then adapt the Vestigial Wings feat from Fiendish Codex I. You'll get a +3 to Jump checks for each related feat that you take, and you'll be immune to falling damage under most circumstances.

If you want functional wings, then adapt either the Outsider Wings feat from Races of Faerun or the Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings feats from Races of the Dragon.

Until you qualify for the feat just say that you've got underdeveloped and nonfunctional wings and that you're exercising them daily in the hopes of one day being able to fly.
VanGrue
11-27-07, 01:09 PM Do you simply want wings or the ability to fly?

If all you want is wings, then adapt the Vestigial Wings feat from Fiendish Codex I. You'll get a +3 to Jump checks for each related feat that you take, and you'll be immune to falling damage under most circumstances.

If you want functional wings, then adapt either the Outsider Wings feat from Races of Faerun or the Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings feats from Races of the Dragon.

Until you qualify for the feat just say that you've got underdeveloped and nonfunctional wings and that you're exercising them daily in the hopes of one day being able to fly.

That's also a viable option.

Another thing, I managed to get ahold of the Dragon Compendium book, and I actually like that Unseelie template after-all, however it has a requirement of alignment: any evil. I want to play a neutral or good character, so this doesn't fit, though there really is nothing in the template's abilities that lends itself to evilness. I don't see why it couldn't be easily adapted to a standard half-fey type race.
HernetheHunter
11-27-07, 10:43 PM If it has what you want then I'd go with it. Ignore the alignment.
VanGrue
11-30-07, 09:28 PM I ended up coming to a compromise, and used the Unseelie template as just that: a template from which to build my new race. However, switching between different options here and there, hand-picking features from one template or another, there was just so much variety. So, I actually ended up coming up with two related race-templates centered on variety of choices, the Fey-bred and the Fey-born. Fey-bred are raised with a mortal family, while fey-born are raised in nature among fey. This results in very different world-views, abilities and traits, and roleplaying options. Fey-born live among nature and magic more-so than the fey-bred, so they have spell-like abilities while the fey-bred use their innate charm and/or the fey-parent's special qualities (player chooses one) to defend themselves from the world, since they are usually so much different from their peers and community.

These options blend especially well with the DM's custom world, so it all worked out pretty well in the end. If anyone's particularly interested, I can finish writing up a description of them and post them here so others can use them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
VanGrue 11-25-07, 06:38 PM	Ok, I've tried searching for answers on the best way to go about this, and I've found little among the books and posts to get what I want. I'm going to be joining a campaign soon at low-level (everyone is currently about halfway to level 5) with the intent of playing a beguiler. When trying to find a more interesting race to play as, in relation to the beguiler's personality and knowing some of the other characters, I found Gnome seems the best choice. However, even before that, I began playing around with options, and came upon the half-fey template (FF 89-90, or online (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf)) . The flavor seemed perfect for what I wanted to do with the character, basically being a clever trickster with a love for nature. However, at such a low-level, a +2 LA is a pretty steep handicap. I like the template's abilities (wings, spell-like abilities, etc), but found myself willing to part with some of them. I spoke with the DM and he agreed to allow me to create a "Lesser Half-fey" template, like the "Lesser" LA races from PGtF (pg. 190). I may even just work it into its own custom race, a LA +1 "Gnomish Half-fey" as it were. At first I figured it would be easy; remove a few features and call it LA +1. However, I keep going back and tweaking it. I'm afraid of it being too powerful and drawing the ire of my fellow players, but I don't want to lose key parts of my build. I think the main problem is that there are no official rules for figuring out how to balance abilities and traits for different degrees of level adjustment. I started by reducing the ability scores, rebalancing them, and removing most of the damage reduction (DR 5/cold-iron is definitely high for a low-level character). At first I figured that would do it well enough to get it down to LA +1 (considering that DR is a fairly valuable trait), and the DM even approved these changes. Still, I know that having a race/template with wings and a fly-speed with good maneuverability, remaining ability mods, and spell-like abilities is still over-powered for LA+1. So, in the interest of fairness to the other players in the campaign, I want to further work on the build. I've provided you with a link to a document including the Half-Fey template, and I'm asking for your help. How would you reduce the template to allow for a single reduction in level adjustment? I've tried, and I know the best answer is probably to remove either the wings or Spell-like abilities, but I can't stand to lose them. So, should I gimp the wings and have them improve over time? Should I remove the SLAs, or reduce them? I like the idea of having them to supplement my beguiler spells, effectively giving me an extra use of a couple spells and adding slightly to my repertoire, but I know some of the higher-level SLAs are powerful. At one point, I was thinking of maybe losing the higher-level SLAs and keeping just the level 1 ones, or even just keeping the "Charm at will". I already reduced the Damage Reduction to 1/cold-iron down from the 5. DR is really nice to have, but I'm willing to part with it (if hesitantly!). Does anyone have any insight they can provide into this?
INeedNoSalt 11-25-07, 08:12 PM	Is that the half-fey template that gives Charm Person at will at like 2nd level? I wouldn't let a player touch that.
HernetheHunter 11-26-07, 01:18 AM	I would drop the wings. I have seen races with a LA+1 just because of Wings. Suggestion would be to pick a specific fey creature you are descended from or have the DM decide and modify the spell-likes to reflect that lineage or perhaps sub the gnome slas as the first few. As for the DR ask your DM if 1/cold iron for every 5 levels gained would be inappropriate. You already have (depending on Gnomish subspecies) low-light vision. Maybe depending on the fey creature chosen you will flavor the PC possibly with other abilities beside Wings.
VanGrue 11-26-07, 04:56 AM	Well, the DM likes to compensate for powerful PCs, so even if I go with what I've got it won't end up being too much of a difference. HernetheHunter's suggestions are pretty good, too. Gnomes are vaguely fey-like humanoids as it is, so supplementing and replacing Gnome abilities/traits with fey ones seems appropriate. The main problem when dealing with LA is that there's no way to standardize it. I think these suggestions and some other things I'm working on with the DM should help make this work though!
kwanzaabot 11-26-07, 07:42 AM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=924252 This might be right up your alley. ;)
nighttree 11-26-07, 10:12 AM	Option #2: Add the Unseelie template (Dragon Compendium) to a Gnome. 0 LA, turns type to fey, boosts dex and cha (you take a hit on Str, & Con), and gives you a few fey abilities.
DiceGolem 11-26-07, 12:27 PM	...why don't you just use the Feytouched race? (FF as well)
Essex 11-26-07, 12:51 PM	I see two major options. Option 1: Use the Fey Bloodline from Unearthed Arcana. It comes in Minor (added abilities at every 4th level), Intermediate (added abilities at every 2nd level), and Major (added abilities at every level) levels. The Minor Bloodline will not require you to skip a class level until 12th level. The Intermediate Bloodline would require you to skip 6th and 12th levels. The Major Bloodline would require you to skip 3rd, 6th, and 12th levels. As a unique perk, Bloodline filler levels count towards maximum skill ranks (even though they don't grant skill points) and towards character abilities based upon level (such as caster level). So while you'll give up between one and three levels of Beguiler to take the Bloodline, you'll still be casting spells with a full CL. Option 2: Take the Fey Heritage feat from Complete Mage and supplement it with some of the other 4 heritage feats that have it as a prerequisite. Two of the feats grant three spell-like abilites, one grants DR/cold iron based upon the number of Fey Heritage feats you've taken, and another grants a +1 to enchantment spell DC's. You could also adapt some of the Abyssal Heritor feats from Fiendish Codex I and use them with the Fey Heritage feat. Cloak of the Obyrith, Keeper of Forbidden Lore, Otherworldly Countenance, Precognitive Visions, Primordial Scion, and Vestigial Wings could all easily apply to somebody descended from a fey creature.
VanGrue 11-26-07, 12:59 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=924252 This might be right up your alley. ;) Thanks, though I'm not specifically looking just for a fey race. The gnome's +1 to save DC on illusion spells helps quite a bit, so anything similarly in line with the concept of an illusionist/trickster. Beyond that, Essex and Dicegolem provide good suggestions (though going feytouched means I'm medium size, and I'd like to stay Small if possible), as well as nighttree, though my character isn't evil or malicious, so I don't think being Unseelie in nature would fit. Plus, don't have Dragon Compendium. :) I know it sounds greedy, but I'd also rather not have to give up feats, as for the Fey Heritage feats, and the bloodline really doesn't help now that I've looked at it. I probably won't get to play the character over a long enough time for it to be of use. Sorry!
teamfireyleader 11-26-07, 02:45 PM	I think you need to look into specifics. Ancestry; is it a nymph then use the half nymph temp. If different then adjust acordingly. thorn ancestry, give grapple damge lethal + poison and that longsword thing. You see what i meen.
VanGrue 11-26-07, 03:33 PM	I think you need to look into specifics. Ancestry; is it a nymph then use the half nymph temp. If different then adjust acordingly. thorn ancestry, give grapple damge lethal + poison and that longsword thing. You see what i meen. I think I do. I guess I simply need to find the examples of different fey or fey-based templates and apply aspects of that toward what I want. I think the preoccupation with the fly-speed was to overcome my complete inability to jump, as a small creature, and not being able to get a fly spell as a wizard or sorcerer. :) Really, the character concept revolves around being a trickster, and I like the idea of a small race for the bonus to AC, but technically any sneaky or "clever" race or template works, even better if they have some bonus to AC.
HernetheHunter 11-26-07, 05:43 PM	Go Half-Spriggan!!! I have a half Spriggan character here somewhere. I always liked to get ahead via haste spells and then enlarging to wreak some havoc! The racial Sneak Attack rocks! But that doesn't help with your beguiler... If you have access to Dragon #355 (I think) they have a fey maniac called a springheel that may, DM permitted, grant a Jump bonus, along with possible spurts of maniacal behavior...
VanGrue 11-27-07, 03:08 AM	(Just to emphasize the point, while I appreciate all the options being provided, and though I'm mentioning being sneaky and a trickster, it's a generally good-themed game, so things that are generally or blatantly evil or malicious most likely won't be considered.) I could probably create a "Fey-born Gnome" race pretty easy too. Maybe just change the ability mods around, and replace the spell-like abilities of the gnome with the Fey Heritage feat. That would be a LA +0 race, and though I'd hate to waste feats to have to get those extra bonuses, that may be necessary. If I wanted it to do this, and give the race wings that manifest after a certain amount of levels("HD"), would that end up increasing the LA, since eventually I'd get wings? Raptorans, for example, have wings from the start and can glide, gaining flight and improved flight later on, but RotW seems to imply there's no LA, though while they get some skill and caster bonuses, there are no ability mods. I'm sure this gets criticized on a regular basis (like most things). What are your thoughts?
Essex 11-27-07, 10:58 AM	Do you simply want wings or the ability to fly? If all you want is wings, then adapt the Vestigial Wings feat from Fiendish Codex I. You'll get a +3 to Jump checks for each related feat that you take, and you'll be immune to falling damage under most circumstances. If you want functional wings, then adapt either the Outsider Wings feat from Races of Faerun or the Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings feats from Races of the Dragon. Until you qualify for the feat just say that you've got underdeveloped and nonfunctional wings and that you're exercising them daily in the hopes of one day being able to fly.
VanGrue 11-27-07, 01:09 PM	Do you simply want wings or the ability to fly? If all you want is wings, then adapt the Vestigial Wings feat from Fiendish Codex I. You'll get a +3 to Jump checks for each related feat that you take, and you'll be immune to falling damage under most circumstances. If you want functional wings, then adapt either the Outsider Wings feat from Races of Faerun or the Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings feats from Races of the Dragon. Until you qualify for the feat just say that you've got underdeveloped and nonfunctional wings and that you're exercising them daily in the hopes of one day being able to fly. That's also a viable option. Another thing, I managed to get ahold of the Dragon Compendium book, and I actually like that Unseelie template after-all, however it has a requirement of alignment: any evil. I want to play a neutral or good character, so this doesn't fit, though there really is nothing in the template's abilities that lends itself to evilness. I don't see why it couldn't be easily adapted to a standard half-fey type race.
HernetheHunter 11-27-07, 10:43 PM	If it has what you want then I'd go with it. Ignore the alignment.
VanGrue 11-30-07, 09:28 PM	I ended up coming to a compromise, and used the Unseelie template as just that: a template from which to build my new race. However, switching between different options here and there, hand-picking features from one template or another, there was just so much variety. So, I actually ended up coming up with two related race-templates centered on variety of choices, the Fey-bred and the Fey-born. Fey-bred are raised with a mortal family, while fey-born are raised in nature among fey. This results in very different world-views, abilities and traits, and roleplaying options. Fey-born live among nature and magic more-so than the fey-bred, so they have spell-like abilities while the fey-bred use their innate charm and/or the fey-parent's special qualities (player chooses one) to defend themselves from the world, since they are usually so much different from their peers and community. These options blend especially well with the DM's custom world, so it all worked out pretty well in the end. If anyone's particularly interested, I can finish writing up a description of them and post them here so others can use them.