Gold Dwarves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gold Dwarves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dastari
03-20-07, 06:04 PM Greetings

I like the Gold Dwarf race as listed in the DMG under the examples for creating subraces. To me it seems more like the dwarves of fantasy, getting a penalty to DEX rather than CHA. I've found some online reference material that says that they are shorter than regular dwarves but I was wondering if anyone out there could tell me what the range of height and weight is for a gold dwarf? Is it supposed to be significantly different from a hill dwarf?

Thanks!
pukunui
03-20-07, 08:52 PM Gold dwarves in the Forgotten Realms use the PHB height/weight/aging tables.

The only differences are the ones listed in the DMG example (-2 DEX instead of -2 CHA and +1 vs aberrations instead of goblinoids). Everything else is cultural: FR gold dwarves are a very proud, expansionist society, whereas the standard PHB "shield" dwarves have been in a long, slow decline for centuries.

They are often depicted with "gold" skin and black hair.
Wharin
03-20-07, 09:50 PM I could have swonn i remembered reading in one of the FR books that while a Shield Dward (standard) had a base height of 3'11, gold dwarves had a base height of 3'8. Though i believe that they had the same weight.
pukunui
03-20-07, 09:56 PM I could have swonn i remembered reading in one of the FR books that while a Shield Dward (standard) had a base height of 3'11, gold dwarves had a base height of 3'8. Though i believe that they had the same weight.From Races of Faerun, p. 11:
Gold dwarves have the life expectancy, age categories, height, and weight defined for dwarves in Tables 6-4, 6-5, and 6-6 in the Player's Handbook.
Wharin
03-20-07, 10:03 PM Ha HA! Vindication! In Player's Guide to Faerun (Table 1-13 on page 32, to be exact), a more recent book, (male) Gold Dwarves are indeed about 5 inches shorter and 15 pounds lighter than a Shield Dwarf.
Wharin
03-20-07, 10:10 PM it appears that we are both right... Yes indeed Gold Dwarves use the standard PHB dwarf height and weight scores. Its the Shield Dwarves (the supposed standward dwarf in FR) that is actually 5 inches taller and 15 pounds heavier than standard.
pukunui
03-20-07, 10:16 PM it appears that we are both right... Yes indeed Gold Dwarves use the standard PHB dwarf height and weight scores. Its the Shield Dwarves (the supposed standward dwarf in FR) that is actually 5 inches taller and 15 pounds heavier than standard.
Yes, that's right. Shield dwarves are taller and heavier in FR than the standard PHB dwarf. Aren't FR elves taller as well?
Neutronium_Dragon
03-20-07, 11:11 PM I don't know if it has been listed in any 3E book, but in 1E/2E, yes. FR elves used human height and half-elf weight.
Dradjeel
03-21-07, 03:36 PM Everything else is cultural: FR gold dwarves are a very proud, expansionist society, whereas the standard PHB "shield" dwarves have been in a long, slow decline for centuries.

This is a nitpick, but the decline of dwarven cultures in FR stopped following the Year of Thunder, when Moradin saw it fit to raise the dwarven birth rate significantly, including a significant amount of the so-called Thunder Twins.

In other words, WOTC got tired of the Tolkien-style doom-and-gloom of the demihuman racial backgrounds, and changed them. They did the same with the elves and their retreat to Evermeet.
The_Shaman
03-21-07, 05:58 PM Actually, I thought the Gold Dwarves had been in decline and the Shield Dwarves relatively unaffected before the Thunder Blessing. Anyway, it's good to see the older races making a comeback. I was getting tired of the "well, they practically owned the world before, but then humanity started to expand and now they're pushed to the fringes" approach.
Treymordin
03-22-07, 01:05 AM The standard PHB dwarf is a hill dwarf with the option in the MM to play a mountain dwarf. None of this nonesense of FR Realm dwarves.
The Ubbergeek
03-22-07, 01:18 AM The standard PHB dwarf is a hill dwarf with the option in the MM to play a mountain dwarf. None of this nonesense of FR Realm dwarves.

Forgotten Realms dwarves are well made.

Like elves, perhaps we can understand local variations in other campaigns from the "canon" - and god forbid we deviate from tolkienism.
Treymordin
03-22-07, 08:58 AM Then perhaps this thread should be moved or started in the FR Realms page?
The_Shaman
03-22-07, 03:00 PM Why bother? Gold dwarves are an okay variant for "deeper" dwarves, and more people visit this page than the FR one imo.
pukunui
03-22-07, 04:26 PM Anyway, the OP asked about the gold dwarves from the DMG, which, as you should well know, is not setting-specific. My response was couched in FR terms because that is the only setting from which any more info on the "gold dwarf" subrace is forthcoming.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-22-07, 05:47 PM It was the shield dwarves who were in decline, with their vast northern empires in ruins. The gold dwarves had had some setbacks, but they were still going strong in the Great Rift and elsewhere in the south, so they never developed the gloomy outlook. (Then again, neither of them match the duergar for gloomy.)

Now, the shield dwarves are on the rebound and the gold dwarves are more active than ever, working to reclaim some of the old dwarven lands in the central reaches of Faerun.

This would generally be the assumption of the MM version too - the gold dwarves are a vigorous and outgoing dwarven society that hasn't undergone the stereotypical doom-and-disaster collapse.
AMGriffin
03-22-07, 06:40 PM Gold dwarves are okay, but overall inferior to traditional shield dwarves. They really only exist IMO so people can play a dwarven paladin without a loss of charisma, which is bad news to the paladin.
pukunui
03-22-07, 06:43 PM Gold dwarves are okay, but overall inferior to traditional shield dwarves. They really only exist IMO so people can play a dwarven paladin without a loss of charisma, which is bad news to the paladin.
That's undoubtedly one reason but I wouldn't say it's the only reason.
AMGriffin
03-22-07, 06:52 PM Yeah... I was being too blunt when I said it was the only reason, but I think Gold Dwarves came about when somebody at WOTC said "Let's make a dwarf subrace that will be good as a paladin!"
pukunui
03-22-07, 06:57 PM Didn't gold dwarves exist prior to WotC owning d&d? The Great Rift, at least, existed in the 2e Realms.

That's not to say that it couldn't have been some people at TSR going "Let's make a dwarf subrace that would be good as a paladin!"
The Ubbergeek
03-22-07, 10:14 PM They are to common hill dwarves what the grey/high elves are to the common ones. Do you think they create races just for cool bonuses? :rolleyes:
CaoSlayer
03-23-07, 11:27 AM Actually the hill dwarves are the newcomers since old second edition dwarves had a penalty to dex and bonus to con like gold ones.
DwarfPcfan
03-23-07, 12:37 PM Actually the hill dwarves are the newcomers since old second edition dwarves had a penalty to dex and bonus to con like gold ones.

Ah no, dwarves had a +1 to con and a -1 to cha. The "dexterity" penalty was simply causes because races had max stat scores dwarves could only have up 17 dex without magic, pixies could only have up to 15 con even without an actual penalty to stats

check the 2nd ed player's handbook and the mounstrous player's handbook (not the actual title, can't remember the actual title am writing this from the college computer room and my book is at home)

Unless you had an 18 to put in the stat that had a maximum, you did'nt have a penalty
CaoSlayer
03-23-07, 02:25 PM Ah no, dwarves had a +1 to con and a -1 to cha. The "dexterity" penalty was simply causes because races had max stat scores dwarves could only have up 17 dex without magic, pixies could only have up to 15 con even without an actual penalty to stats

check the 2nd ed player's handbook and the mounstrous player's handbook (not the actual title, can't remember the actual title am writing this from the college computer room and my book is at home)

Unless you had an 18 to put in the stat that had a maximum, you did'nt have a penalty

Im almost 100% sure that were +1 con -1 dex, at least in every baldur gate/ice wind dale game was that way.
Shadowfax7
03-23-07, 03:13 PM Ah no, dwarves had a +1 to con and a -1 to cha. The "dexterity" penalty was simply causes because races had max stat scores dwarves could only have up 17 dex without magic,

This is definitely correct for 1st and 2nd ed. AD&D PHBs.

As far as Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale . . . I am not sure.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dastari 03-20-07, 06:04 PM	Greetings I like the Gold Dwarf race as listed in the DMG under the examples for creating subraces. To me it seems more like the dwarves of fantasy, getting a penalty to DEX rather than CHA. I've found some online reference material that says that they are shorter than regular dwarves but I was wondering if anyone out there could tell me what the range of height and weight is for a gold dwarf? Is it supposed to be significantly different from a hill dwarf? Thanks!
pukunui 03-20-07, 08:52 PM	Gold dwarves in the Forgotten Realms use the PHB height/weight/aging tables. The only differences are the ones listed in the DMG example (-2 DEX instead of -2 CHA and +1 vs aberrations instead of goblinoids). Everything else is cultural: FR gold dwarves are a very proud, expansionist society, whereas the standard PHB "shield" dwarves have been in a long, slow decline for centuries. They are often depicted with "gold" skin and black hair.
Wharin 03-20-07, 09:50 PM	I could have swonn i remembered reading in one of the FR books that while a Shield Dward (standard) had a base height of 3'11, gold dwarves had a base height of 3'8. Though i believe that they had the same weight.
pukunui 03-20-07, 09:56 PM	I could have swonn i remembered reading in one of the FR books that while a Shield Dward (standard) had a base height of 3'11, gold dwarves had a base height of 3'8. Though i believe that they had the same weight.From Races of Faerun, p. 11: Gold dwarves have the life expectancy, age categories, height, and weight defined for dwarves in Tables 6-4, 6-5, and 6-6 in the Player's Handbook.
Wharin 03-20-07, 10:03 PM	Ha HA! Vindication! In Player's Guide to Faerun (Table 1-13 on page 32, to be exact), a more recent book, (male) Gold Dwarves are indeed about 5 inches shorter and 15 pounds lighter than a Shield Dwarf.
Wharin 03-20-07, 10:10 PM	it appears that we are both right... Yes indeed Gold Dwarves use the standard PHB dwarf height and weight scores. Its the Shield Dwarves (the supposed standward dwarf in FR) that is actually 5 inches taller and 15 pounds heavier than standard.
pukunui 03-20-07, 10:16 PM	it appears that we are both right... Yes indeed Gold Dwarves use the standard PHB dwarf height and weight scores. Its the Shield Dwarves (the supposed standward dwarf in FR) that is actually 5 inches taller and 15 pounds heavier than standard. Yes, that's right. Shield dwarves are taller and heavier in FR than the standard PHB dwarf. Aren't FR elves taller as well?
Neutronium_Dragon 03-20-07, 11:11 PM	I don't know if it has been listed in any 3E book, but in 1E/2E, yes. FR elves used human height and half-elf weight.
Dradjeel 03-21-07, 03:36 PM	Everything else is cultural: FR gold dwarves are a very proud, expansionist society, whereas the standard PHB "shield" dwarves have been in a long, slow decline for centuries. This is a nitpick, but the decline of dwarven cultures in FR stopped following the Year of Thunder, when Moradin saw it fit to raise the dwarven birth rate significantly, including a significant amount of the so-called Thunder Twins. In other words, WOTC got tired of the Tolkien-style doom-and-gloom of the demihuman racial backgrounds, and changed them. They did the same with the elves and their retreat to Evermeet.
The_Shaman 03-21-07, 05:58 PM	Actually, I thought the Gold Dwarves had been in decline and the Shield Dwarves relatively unaffected before the Thunder Blessing. Anyway, it's good to see the older races making a comeback. I was getting tired of the "well, they practically owned the world before, but then humanity started to expand and now they're pushed to the fringes" approach.
Treymordin 03-22-07, 01:05 AM	The standard PHB dwarf is a hill dwarf with the option in the MM to play a mountain dwarf. None of this nonesense of FR Realm dwarves.
The Ubbergeek 03-22-07, 01:18 AM	The standard PHB dwarf is a hill dwarf with the option in the MM to play a mountain dwarf. None of this nonesense of FR Realm dwarves. Forgotten Realms dwarves are well made. Like elves, perhaps we can understand local variations in other campaigns from the "canon" - and god forbid we deviate from tolkienism.
Treymordin 03-22-07, 08:58 AM	Then perhaps this thread should be moved or started in the FR Realms page?
The_Shaman 03-22-07, 03:00 PM	Why bother? Gold dwarves are an okay variant for "deeper" dwarves, and more people visit this page than the FR one imo.
pukunui 03-22-07, 04:26 PM	Anyway, the OP asked about the gold dwarves from the DMG, which, as you should well know, is not setting-specific. My response was couched in FR terms because that is the only setting from which any more info on the "gold dwarf" subrace is forthcoming.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-22-07, 05:47 PM	It was the shield dwarves who were in decline, with their vast northern empires in ruins. The gold dwarves had had some setbacks, but they were still going strong in the Great Rift and elsewhere in the south, so they never developed the gloomy outlook. (Then again, neither of them match the duergar for gloomy.) Now, the shield dwarves are on the rebound and the gold dwarves are more active than ever, working to reclaim some of the old dwarven lands in the central reaches of Faerun. This would generally be the assumption of the MM version too - the gold dwarves are a vigorous and outgoing dwarven society that hasn't undergone the stereotypical doom-and-disaster collapse.
AMGriffin 03-22-07, 06:40 PM	Gold dwarves are okay, but overall inferior to traditional shield dwarves. They really only exist IMO so people can play a dwarven paladin without a loss of charisma, which is bad news to the paladin.
pukunui 03-22-07, 06:43 PM	Gold dwarves are okay, but overall inferior to traditional shield dwarves. They really only exist IMO so people can play a dwarven paladin without a loss of charisma, which is bad news to the paladin. That's undoubtedly one reason but I wouldn't say it's the only reason.
AMGriffin 03-22-07, 06:52 PM	Yeah... I was being too blunt when I said it was the only reason, but I think Gold Dwarves came about when somebody at WOTC said "Let's make a dwarf subrace that will be good as a paladin!"
pukunui 03-22-07, 06:57 PM	Didn't gold dwarves exist prior to WotC owning d&d? The Great Rift, at least, existed in the 2e Realms. That's not to say that it couldn't have been some people at TSR going "Let's make a dwarf subrace that would be good as a paladin!"
The Ubbergeek 03-22-07, 10:14 PM	They are to common hill dwarves what the grey/high elves are to the common ones. Do you think they create races just for cool bonuses? :rolleyes:
CaoSlayer 03-23-07, 11:27 AM	Actually the hill dwarves are the newcomers since old second edition dwarves had a penalty to dex and bonus to con like gold ones.
DwarfPcfan 03-23-07, 12:37 PM	Actually the hill dwarves are the newcomers since old second edition dwarves had a penalty to dex and bonus to con like gold ones. Ah no, dwarves had a +1 to con and a -1 to cha. The "dexterity" penalty was simply causes because races had max stat scores dwarves could only have up 17 dex without magic, pixies could only have up to 15 con even without an actual penalty to stats check the 2nd ed player's handbook and the mounstrous player's handbook (not the actual title, can't remember the actual title am writing this from the college computer room and my book is at home) Unless you had an 18 to put in the stat that had a maximum, you did'nt have a penalty
CaoSlayer 03-23-07, 02:25 PM	Ah no, dwarves had a +1 to con and a -1 to cha. The "dexterity" penalty was simply causes because races had max stat scores dwarves could only have up 17 dex without magic, pixies could only have up to 15 con even without an actual penalty to stats check the 2nd ed player's handbook and the mounstrous player's handbook (not the actual title, can't remember the actual title am writing this from the college computer room and my book is at home) Unless you had an 18 to put in the stat that had a maximum, you did'nt have a penalty Im almost 100% sure that were +1 con -1 dex, at least in every baldur gate/ice wind dale game was that way.
Shadowfax7 03-23-07, 03:13 PM	Ah no, dwarves had a +1 to con and a -1 to cha. The "dexterity" penalty was simply causes because races had max stat scores dwarves could only have up 17 dex without magic, This is definitely correct for 1st and 2nd ed. AD&D PHBs. As far as Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale . . . I am not sure.