Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Brian Drozd 02-25-07, 02:58 PM	I am trying to build a first level goliath barbarian, but quickly came to a question. The first level goliath barbarian level doesn't list fast movement (or illiteracy for that matter). The Mountain Rage feature specifically says it replaces rage, and nothing about fast movement. However, the description of goliath barbarian states that they give up some of a barbarian's traditional agility for their increased strength and durability, and generally, WoC has gone out of their way to list all the class features, including the ones that weren't changed. So my question is: were goliath barbarian's supposed to loose their fast movement ability or not? My gut reaction is that yes they were - the 10 foot space and reach and +1 damage from strength they gain seems to be too much for a mere -1 to AC - but I'd like other opinions.
Stickboy2323 02-25-07, 09:16 PM	I think they keep the Fast Movement. Remember that the Goliath only gets the Mountain Rage bonuses when he is raging. Eventhough the table does not reflect the Fast Movement and Illiteracy they should both still apply. There is nothing in the text that says they are replaced only that "Mountain Rage replaces the standard barbarian's rage ability".
User5127 02-25-07, 09:24 PM	seconded. the only ability you lose is normal rage. you keep eveything else and gain mountain rage. so you still have fast movement and illiteracy
runestar 02-25-07, 09:29 PM	Actually, the substitution level will list everything you gain and lost. I don't have races of stone, but if the sub level does not list fast movement, then I do not think you will get it. Makes sense if you consider how much of a no-brainer people used to view the 1st sub level.:P
Thomas_Covenant 02-25-07, 09:36 PM	Yeah, sounds like you're reading too much into flavor text, really. Keep fast movement and illiteracy. Racial substitution levels typically only say what changed, not the end result. It could be a simple reference to AC and ranged to-hit penalty, poor editing, or drug-induced diarrhea of the mouth. With WotC, we may never know the precise answer here....
runestar 02-25-07, 10:04 PM	Racial substitution levels typically only say what changed, not the end result. At the risk of being condemned by everyone here for all posterity, I must admit that I have noticed other sub classes listing the very same class features it grants if it remains unchanged. For example, if you look at the sub classes in the champions of valor web enhancement, one of the rogue options lists sneak attack +2d6 at 3rd lv, paladin1 still grants aura of good and smite evil etc. Going by your logic, there would have been no need to mention them. However, if fast movement was lost, then the entry should probably have at least made a passing mention of it, like "... replaces the fast movement ability a barb typically gets at 1st lv" or something along that line. Yeah, sounds like you're reading too much into flavor text, really. Actually, it would be more a case of taking the mechanical wording too literally.:P While I agree that it could easily have been an editing oversight, I must admit that in light of this, it could possibly be interpreted either way. Just go with whatever floats your boat, though I too am leaning towards the "crappy editing" rationale.:D
Brian Drozd 02-25-07, 10:53 PM	I too am leaning towards the "crappy editing" rationale. You'll get no arguement from me on that. I'm just trying to figure out which way the goliath barbarian was supposed to be built. I feel that mountain rage and fast movement makes the goliath barbarian slightly too powerful, but then they've done similar things with the elven generalist wizard and the half-orc paladin (righteous fury makes smite evil look pale and limp-wristed by comparison, especially at higher levels). On the other hand you have halfling theives who, thanks to ranged sneak attack, loose a die of sneak attack damage when making melee sneak attacks but don't gain anything in turn (which is another editing error I'm sure).
Richmud 02-26-07, 10:15 AM	Text trumps table, the text doesn't mention losing fast movement therefor its not lost
Tectorman 02-26-07, 10:32 AM	Mountain rage replaces normal raging, and that's it. You are still illiterate and you still get fast movement. After all, in Races of the Wild, a halfling Rogue taking the halfling Rogue 1st level substitution would use +0d6 on melee sneak attacks and +1d6 on ranged sneak attacks if you went by the table. Since all rogues normally get +1d6 on melee AND on ranged sneak attacks, going by the table basically just screws you over. I'd go by text.