Goliath LA [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Goliath LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MasonMurdoc
03-16-07, 06:53 AM Would knocking there Str down to +2 be good enough to get rid of the LA
If not, do you have any ideas as to how to do so without ruining it
Naderion
03-16-07, 07:25 AM That's hard. They are made that an average goliath is much more powerfull than an average human. Reducing the LA stops them from being that physically impressive people.
MasonMurdoc
03-16-07, 07:36 AM That's hard. They are made that an average goliath is much more powerfull than an average human. Reducing the LA stops them from being that physically impressive people.

U thught it would be the abilities it gets that oes that
Not the LA
runestar
03-16-07, 08:02 AM Powerful build alone is probably enough to make a goliath worth more than LA+0, though insufficient to prop it up to LA+1. You might have to do something about that too...
MasonMurdoc
03-16-07, 08:22 AM Powerful build alone is probably enough to make a goliath worth more than LA+0, though insufficient to prop it up to LA+1. You might have to do something about that too...

I was kinda hoping I coul keep that in there

Would it really be that bad, if I just left it as it was and just gave it LA 0 anyway?
runestar
03-16-07, 08:36 AM You could either have powerful build or the stat modifiers, or not both, I am afraid...:(

Powerful build is a bit on the strong side, but I guess I could close one eye...:P
YabaTheWhat
03-16-07, 08:40 AM Powerful build by itself, with no other racial traits whatsoever, will allow them to be LA+0. However, even with the strength bonus reduced to +2, they're still getting +2 STR & CON with -2 DEX (two bonuses & one penalty), the value of which is enough to put them over the top, into LA+1 underpowered territory. On top of that, they get some other perks, including the Monstrous Humanoid type (darkvision & simple weapon proficiency). So no, dropping the strength bonus to +2 isn't enough to make them balanced at LA+0.
MasonMurdoc
03-16-07, 09:26 AM Powerful build by itself, with no other racial traits whatsoever, will allow them to be LA+0. However, even with the strength bonus reduced to +2, they're still getting +2 STR & CON with -2 DEX (two bonuses & one penalty), the value of which is enough to put them over the top, into LA+1 underpowered territory. On top of that, they get some other perks, including the Monstrous Humanoid type (darkvision & simple weapon proficiency). So no, dropping the strength bonus to +2 isn't enough to make them balanced at LA+0.

I could get rid on the CON bonus
Giving them +2 Str -2 Dex, thats fair
Would getting rid of the monsterous humanoid aspect ruin them?
Ryusage
03-16-07, 09:36 AM I could get rid on the CON bonus
Giving them +2 Str -2 Dex, thats fair
Would getting rid of the monsterous humanoid aspect ruin them?

this would make them a powerful LA+0 race.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-16-07, 09:55 AM I don't think that simple weapon proficiency is really much of a balance factor. The few classes who don't get it by default don't really benefit in any substantial fashion from having it.

It's more of a "yes, classless creatures of this type do know how to club or poke someone with a stick" trait for NPCs.
runestar
03-16-07, 10:06 AM It's more about the darkvision...:)
Borris
03-16-07, 10:10 AM And immunity to charm person and hold person.
Khatoblepas
03-16-07, 10:21 AM But with Monstrous Humanoid also comes immunity to Enlarge Person. They're Monstrous Humanoids BECAUSE they're 'larger' than medium size!

There is only one other way of making nonhumanoids bigger magically (Expansion is psionic, and not strictly core.) and that's Righteous Might. Sure a Goliath Cleric could persist it, but that's what the LA is for. To stop them from overpowering the other characters! Giving them Powerful Build and LA+0 is bad enough. Powerful Build, LA+0 and Humanoid type is even worse!

I believe that Powerful Build can only be in a race of at least +1LA. You COULD, however, go down the Raptoran route and give them their abilities at higher HD.
MasonMurdoc
03-16-07, 10:22 AM So is this ok?
enygmatic_me
03-16-07, 11:07 PM Making all these changes really means you are no longer playing a Goliath. Since you are already dealing with house rules, why not just create a new race all together. What part of the Goliath race is it that truly appeals to you?

Honestly though, the race is worth the LA+1. Why is it you want it changed? Are you a DM looking to balance something for a player, a player who's DM doesn't allow LA'ed characters? I am a little confused on why the changes are needed.
kadeity
03-17-07, 03:33 AM Powerful Build is nearly worth a +1 alone.
Str is the stat you pay most dearly to get a bonus too...
really youll never get something thats LA 0 that can wield large sized weapons... unless it has some MAJOR drawbacks.
runestar
03-17-07, 03:36 AM Or you could just play a human, and take the jotunbrud and monkey grip feats...:P
MasonMurdoc
03-17-07, 06:35 AM It was because of the races in the worl I have
an I wanted it playable from the begining
But I'm either going to ad something else, or have them start at a higher level

Thanks for all the advice though:)
enygmatic_me
03-17-07, 12:00 PM A quick and dirty way to simulate balancing the LA+0 races to an LA+1 is to just give them a bonus feat. It isn't perfect, but you usually won't hear a player complain about getting a free feat. This would allow the Goliath to advance like the rest of the party.

The big problem you find with this method is keeping the encounters balanced.
Argaud
03-17-07, 12:08 PM It was because of the races in the worl I have
an I wanted it playable from the begining
But I'm either going to ad something else, or have them start at a higher level

Thanks for all the advice though:)
You could just add the Jotunbrud feat from FR to a human and claim he is a half-goliath :)
Spikes01k
03-17-07, 12:18 PM Alright, here is what you need to do. Try this,

Half Goliath, or lesser Goliath
-2 dex
Powerful Build
Bonus Skill points, as per humans.

Done.

That is the only way your going to get this. If youwant powerful build you must have a -2 to a physical stat, or -4 total to two mental stats like the Half Orc.
MasonMurdoc
03-18-07, 06:06 PM Could it be possible to have Goliath's get Powerful Build, when they have a certain amount of HD and have them with no LA?
Spikes01k
03-18-07, 06:58 PM Could it be possible to have Goliath's get Powerful Build, when they have a certain amount of HD and have them with no LA?

Yeah thats an Idea, but you probably want to make it cost them a feat.

Altough you may have an Idea there. Give them Monkey Grip feat, and let it progress from there.
MasonMurdoc
03-18-07, 07:39 PM Yeah thats an Idea, but you probably want to make it cost them a feat.

Altough you may have an Idea there. Give them Monkey Grip feat, and let it progress from there.

That could work

Would I be able to to get away with leaving them how they are apart from powerful build, and have a 0 LA or will I need to change more?
Arcane Guyver
03-18-07, 08:54 PM Even with the LA, you can make them playable from 1st level. You can either:

#1) Reduce the ability modifiers to +2 Str, -2 Dex, and remove the Powerful Build trait. Then, once the character hits 2nd level, instead of gaining a HD they get an additional +2 Str, +2 Con, and Powerful Build.

OR

#2) Simply allow them as-is. As a trade-off for their superior initial abilities, they don't hit 2nd level until everyone else hits 3rd level (at 3,000 XP). So, until 2nd level (which shouldn't take long to reach), goliaths enjoy being a bit more powerful.
Spikes01k
03-19-07, 12:57 AM That could work

Would I be able to to get away with leaving them how they are apart from powerful build, and have a 0 LA or will I need to change more?

No sorry, Check out the DMG section on making new races. Str +2, Dex -2 is probably your best bet.

Edit: also you will need to cut down or out some of the other abilities.

A standard race will have the following
* A balanced set of modifying stats by their system.
In general Str is worth a -2 dex or con, or -2 to two stats of int, wis, and cha.
In general Dex is worth a -2 str or con, or -2 to two stats of int, wis, and cha.
Con I forget but I think are as such.
In general con is worth a -2 str, dex, int, wis, and cha.
In general int is worth a -2 str, dex, con, wis, and cha.
In general wis is worth a -2 str, dex, int, con, and cha.
In general cha is worth a -2 str, dex, int, wis, and con.

A good feat/ability
A skill bonus feat as racial bonus to those two skills
MasonMurdoc
03-19-07, 11:19 AM What about making them Humanoids instead of Monsterous Humanoids?

Because I'd like to keep the abilities they have
enygmatic_me
03-19-07, 11:49 AM What about making them Humanoids instead of Monsterous Humanoids?

Because I'd like to keep the abilities they have

Changing the type is not significant enough to adjust their LA.

I think that possibly the best option was put forth by Arcane Guyver. #1) Reduce the ability modifiers to +2 Str, -2 Dex, and remove the Powerful Build trait. Then, once the character hits 2nd level, instead of gaining a HD they get an additional +2 Str, +2 Con, and Powerful Build.

This will leave them a little stunted for HP at 2nd level, but not in any way they wouldn't already have been and a level or two later they should be fine.

Another option would be to just start the party at 2nd level.
MasonMurdoc
03-19-07, 11:56 AM Changing the type is not significant enough to adjust their LA.

I think that possibly the best option was put forth by Arcane Guyver.

This will leave them a little stunted for HP at 2nd level, but not in any way they wouldn't already have been and a level or two later they should be fine.

Another option would be to just start the party at 2nd level.

I'll try that

I was gonna try 2n or 3rd level but It would mean they have a level of aventuring under there belt.
I prefere to start at the begining
enygmatic_me
03-19-07, 12:20 PM I'll try that

I was gonna try 2n or 3rd level but It would mean they have a level of aventuring under there belt.
I prefere to start at the begining

A level or two could also just represent formalized training. A temple will train a new cleric before sending them out into the world. A fighter may have spent time in the military or at a school for their chosen fighting style. A rogue could have easily gained a level or two just trying to survive on the streets for a few months, let alone a year or two. Level is not just adventuring, it is the total of life experiences and training as well.
The_Geek
03-19-07, 01:40 PM Powerful build is ... odd.

You get the advantage of being able to use larger weapons. That rocks. But how does it stack up against other items? It's slightly better in some ways than being 'Large', as you don't have the penalties (not to mention Dwarfs kicking your a$$), but you don't get the reach bonus. It's on a par with the "Improved Natural Weapons" feat.

Very useful if you're a fighter type.

So, by itself, not quite enough to push you to +1 LA.

Throw in a bonus to any of the fighter stats (ESPECIALLY Str!), and it's worth +1 LA.

Just play a half-minotaur (Dragon version) instead :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MasonMurdoc 03-16-07, 06:53 AM	Would knocking there Str down to +2 be good enough to get rid of the LA If not, do you have any ideas as to how to do so without ruining it
Naderion 03-16-07, 07:25 AM	That's hard. They are made that an average goliath is much more powerfull than an average human. Reducing the LA stops them from being that physically impressive people.
MasonMurdoc 03-16-07, 07:36 AM	That's hard. They are made that an average goliath is much more powerfull than an average human. Reducing the LA stops them from being that physically impressive people. U thught it would be the abilities it gets that oes that Not the LA
runestar 03-16-07, 08:02 AM	Powerful build alone is probably enough to make a goliath worth more than LA+0, though insufficient to prop it up to LA+1. You might have to do something about that too...
MasonMurdoc 03-16-07, 08:22 AM	Powerful build alone is probably enough to make a goliath worth more than LA+0, though insufficient to prop it up to LA+1. You might have to do something about that too... I was kinda hoping I coul keep that in there Would it really be that bad, if I just left it as it was and just gave it LA 0 anyway?
runestar 03-16-07, 08:36 AM	You could either have powerful build or the stat modifiers, or not both, I am afraid...:( Powerful build is a bit on the strong side, but I guess I could close one eye...:P
YabaTheWhat 03-16-07, 08:40 AM	Powerful build by itself, with no other racial traits whatsoever, will allow them to be LA+0. However, even with the strength bonus reduced to +2, they're still getting +2 STR & CON with -2 DEX (two bonuses & one penalty), the value of which is enough to put them over the top, into LA+1 underpowered territory. On top of that, they get some other perks, including the Monstrous Humanoid type (darkvision & simple weapon proficiency). So no, dropping the strength bonus to +2 isn't enough to make them balanced at LA+0.
MasonMurdoc 03-16-07, 09:26 AM	Powerful build by itself, with no other racial traits whatsoever, will allow them to be LA+0. However, even with the strength bonus reduced to +2, they're still getting +2 STR & CON with -2 DEX (two bonuses & one penalty), the value of which is enough to put them over the top, into LA+1 underpowered territory. On top of that, they get some other perks, including the Monstrous Humanoid type (darkvision & simple weapon proficiency). So no, dropping the strength bonus to +2 isn't enough to make them balanced at LA+0. I could get rid on the CON bonus Giving them +2 Str -2 Dex, thats fair Would getting rid of the monsterous humanoid aspect ruin them?
Ryusage 03-16-07, 09:36 AM	I could get rid on the CON bonus Giving them +2 Str -2 Dex, thats fair Would getting rid of the monsterous humanoid aspect ruin them? this would make them a powerful LA+0 race.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-16-07, 09:55 AM	I don't think that simple weapon proficiency is really much of a balance factor. The few classes who don't get it by default don't really benefit in any substantial fashion from having it. It's more of a "yes, classless creatures of this type do know how to club or poke someone with a stick" trait for NPCs.
runestar 03-16-07, 10:06 AM	It's more about the darkvision...:)
Borris 03-16-07, 10:10 AM	And immunity to charm person and hold person.
Khatoblepas 03-16-07, 10:21 AM	But with Monstrous Humanoid also comes immunity to Enlarge Person. They're Monstrous Humanoids BECAUSE they're 'larger' than medium size! There is only one other way of making nonhumanoids bigger magically (Expansion is psionic, and not strictly core.) and that's Righteous Might. Sure a Goliath Cleric could persist it, but that's what the LA is for. To stop them from overpowering the other characters! Giving them Powerful Build and LA+0 is bad enough. Powerful Build, LA+0 and Humanoid type is even worse! I believe that Powerful Build can only be in a race of at least +1LA. You COULD, however, go down the Raptoran route and give them their abilities at higher HD.
MasonMurdoc 03-16-07, 10:22 AM	So is this ok?
enygmatic_me 03-16-07, 11:07 PM	Making all these changes really means you are no longer playing a Goliath. Since you are already dealing with house rules, why not just create a new race all together. What part of the Goliath race is it that truly appeals to you? Honestly though, the race is worth the LA+1. Why is it you want it changed? Are you a DM looking to balance something for a player, a player who's DM doesn't allow LA'ed characters? I am a little confused on why the changes are needed.
kadeity 03-17-07, 03:33 AM	Powerful Build is nearly worth a +1 alone. Str is the stat you pay most dearly to get a bonus too... really youll never get something thats LA 0 that can wield large sized weapons... unless it has some MAJOR drawbacks.
runestar 03-17-07, 03:36 AM	Or you could just play a human, and take the jotunbrud and monkey grip feats...:P
MasonMurdoc 03-17-07, 06:35 AM	It was because of the races in the worl I have an I wanted it playable from the begining But I'm either going to ad something else, or have them start at a higher level Thanks for all the advice though:)
enygmatic_me 03-17-07, 12:00 PM	A quick and dirty way to simulate balancing the LA+0 races to an LA+1 is to just give them a bonus feat. It isn't perfect, but you usually won't hear a player complain about getting a free feat. This would allow the Goliath to advance like the rest of the party. The big problem you find with this method is keeping the encounters balanced.
Argaud 03-17-07, 12:08 PM	It was because of the races in the worl I have an I wanted it playable from the begining But I'm either going to ad something else, or have them start at a higher level Thanks for all the advice though:) You could just add the Jotunbrud feat from FR to a human and claim he is a half-goliath :)
Spikes01k 03-17-07, 12:18 PM	Alright, here is what you need to do. Try this, Half Goliath, or lesser Goliath -2 dex Powerful Build Bonus Skill points, as per humans. Done. That is the only way your going to get this. If youwant powerful build you must have a -2 to a physical stat, or -4 total to two mental stats like the Half Orc.
MasonMurdoc 03-18-07, 06:06 PM	Could it be possible to have Goliath's get Powerful Build, when they have a certain amount of HD and have them with no LA?
Spikes01k 03-18-07, 06:58 PM	Could it be possible to have Goliath's get Powerful Build, when they have a certain amount of HD and have them with no LA? Yeah thats an Idea, but you probably want to make it cost them a feat. Altough you may have an Idea there. Give them Monkey Grip feat, and let it progress from there.
MasonMurdoc 03-18-07, 07:39 PM	Yeah thats an Idea, but you probably want to make it cost them a feat. Altough you may have an Idea there. Give them Monkey Grip feat, and let it progress from there. That could work Would I be able to to get away with leaving them how they are apart from powerful build, and have a 0 LA or will I need to change more?
Arcane Guyver 03-18-07, 08:54 PM	Even with the LA, you can make them playable from 1st level. You can either: #1) Reduce the ability modifiers to +2 Str, -2 Dex, and remove the Powerful Build trait. Then, once the character hits 2nd level, instead of gaining a HD they get an additional +2 Str, +2 Con, and Powerful Build. OR #2) Simply allow them as-is. As a trade-off for their superior initial abilities, they don't hit 2nd level until everyone else hits 3rd level (at 3,000 XP). So, until 2nd level (which shouldn't take long to reach), goliaths enjoy being a bit more powerful.
Spikes01k 03-19-07, 12:57 AM	That could work Would I be able to to get away with leaving them how they are apart from powerful build, and have a 0 LA or will I need to change more? No sorry, Check out the DMG section on making new races. Str +2, Dex -2 is probably your best bet. Edit: also you will need to cut down or out some of the other abilities. A standard race will have the following * A balanced set of modifying stats by their system. In general Str is worth a -2 dex or con, or -2 to two stats of int, wis, and cha. In general Dex is worth a -2 str or con, or -2 to two stats of int, wis, and cha. Con I forget but I think are as such. In general con is worth a -2 str, dex, int, wis, and cha. In general int is worth a -2 str, dex, con, wis, and cha. In general wis is worth a -2 str, dex, int, con, and cha. In general cha is worth a -2 str, dex, int, wis, and con. A good feat/ability A skill bonus feat as racial bonus to those two skills
MasonMurdoc 03-19-07, 11:19 AM	What about making them Humanoids instead of Monsterous Humanoids? Because I'd like to keep the abilities they have
enygmatic_me 03-19-07, 11:49 AM	What about making them Humanoids instead of Monsterous Humanoids? Because I'd like to keep the abilities they have Changing the type is not significant enough to adjust their LA. I think that possibly the best option was put forth by Arcane Guyver. #1) Reduce the ability modifiers to +2 Str, -2 Dex, and remove the Powerful Build trait. Then, once the character hits 2nd level, instead of gaining a HD they get an additional +2 Str, +2 Con, and Powerful Build. This will leave them a little stunted for HP at 2nd level, but not in any way they wouldn't already have been and a level or two later they should be fine. Another option would be to just start the party at 2nd level.
MasonMurdoc 03-19-07, 11:56 AM	Changing the type is not significant enough to adjust their LA. I think that possibly the best option was put forth by Arcane Guyver. This will leave them a little stunted for HP at 2nd level, but not in any way they wouldn't already have been and a level or two later they should be fine. Another option would be to just start the party at 2nd level. I'll try that I was gonna try 2n or 3rd level but It would mean they have a level of aventuring under there belt. I prefere to start at the begining
enygmatic_me 03-19-07, 12:20 PM	I'll try that I was gonna try 2n or 3rd level but It would mean they have a level of aventuring under there belt. I prefere to start at the begining A level or two could also just represent formalized training. A temple will train a new cleric before sending them out into the world. A fighter may have spent time in the military or at a school for their chosen fighting style. A rogue could have easily gained a level or two just trying to survive on the streets for a few months, let alone a year or two. Level is not just adventuring, it is the total of life experiences and training as well.
The_Geek 03-19-07, 01:40 PM	Powerful build is ... odd. You get the advantage of being able to use larger weapons. That rocks. But how does it stack up against other items? It's slightly better in some ways than being 'Large', as you don't have the penalties (not to mention Dwarfs kicking your a$$), but you don't get the reach bonus. It's on a par with the "Improved Natural Weapons" feat. Very useful if you're a fighter type. So, by itself, not quite enough to push you to +1 LA. Throw in a bonus to any of the fighter stats (ESPECIALLY Str!), and it's worth +1 LA. Just play a half-minotaur (Dragon version) instead :)