Goliath Monks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Goliath Monks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Huzzah!
02-19-07, 09:47 AM Would a goliath monk do unarmed damage as a Large creature because of Powerful Build, or does it only apply to manufactured weapons?
KurenaiYami
02-19-07, 09:53 AM It does Medium Monk damage.
runestar
02-19-07, 10:15 AM Note that powerful build does not say anything about letting your unarmed attacks be treated as 1 size category bigger...;)
enygmatic_me
02-19-07, 05:01 PM Note that powerful build does not say anything about letting your unarmed attacks be treated as 1 size category bigger...;)

But it does say they are treated as one size category larger if it is beneficial to the character. I think an increase to damage is beneficial. As it is a little unclear on this and I haven't seen any errata, I would allow it.
bobothechimp
02-19-07, 05:55 PM According to the FAQ,

"Does the powerful build racial trait change the damage the character deals with unarmed strikes and natural weapons?
No. The powerful build racial trait allows the character to 'use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty' but doesn't say anything aobut changing the damage dealt by his unarmed strikes or natural weapons."
enygmatic_me
02-19-07, 06:01 PM According to the FAQ,

"Does the powerful build racial trait change the damage the character deals with unarmed strikes and natural weapons?
No. The powerful build racial trait allows the character to 'use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty' but doesn't say anything aobut changing the damage dealt by his unarmed strikes or natural weapons."

Could you post the link please? I have no problem being wrong on this, but I would like a place to point my players as this has come up in our group.
bobothechimp
02-19-07, 06:12 PM Certainly.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

That should be it.
Bladesinger Boy
02-19-07, 06:19 PM It takes a feat, but Improved Natural Attack will increase your unarmed strike damage. I guess that's beside the question at hand, but in line with the maxing unarmed damage part of it.
enygmatic_me
02-19-07, 06:19 PM Certainly.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

That should be it.

Thanks.
runestar
02-19-07, 10:28 PM But it does say they are treated as one size category larger if it is beneficial to the character. I think an increase to damage is beneficial. As it is a little unclear on this and I haven't seen any errata, I would allow it.
There is nothing unclear about it...
• Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
The benefits granted by powerful build are spelled out very clearly and explicitly. You get nothing more or less.
Reread the entire powerful build description and tell me if it mentions anything about improving unarmed damage? Your mistake lies in only having read half the entry and conveniently neglecting the 2nd half.;)
Tectorman
02-22-07, 10:11 AM Rules As Written says "no, they do not." Having said that, were I DMing a campaign, I would houserule that they could. Also, I have to wonder what if the Feral Gargun has a natural attack or not. If so, what is the damage dice? If it deals the same damage as a claw (or otherwise) attack from another Medium creature, then natural attacks do not get augmented by powerful build (as I type this, I'm assuming that Feral Garguns are Medium creatures, as I do not have my Races of Stone book with me). If a Feral Gargun's claw attack deals the same damage as a claw attack from a Large creature, however, that means that Powerful Build would allow a Goliath Monk to deal Large Monk damage.
runestar
02-22-07, 11:17 AM I'm assuming that Feral Garguns are Medium creatures, as I do not have my Races of Stone book with me). If a Feral Gargun's claw attack deals the same damage as a claw attack from a Large creature, however, that means that Powerful Build would allow a Goliath Monk to deal Large Monk damage.
Problem with that is that not all claw damage is standardized for different creatures of the same size category. Thus, you have no way of inferring if its claw damage(assuming it does have 1) is what it is because of powerful build, or perhaps simply more powerful than others of its size due to its unique makeup.:)
Tectorman
02-23-07, 11:57 AM Well, I've checked. The Centaur Monster Class in either the Savage Species book or the Races of the Wild book starts the Centaur out as a Medium size creature and 2 hoof attacks that deal 1d4 damage. At the end of the class, the Centaur becomes Large and his hoof attacks deal 1d6 damage. In Races of Stone, the Feral Gargun begins as a Medium creature and has 2 claw attacks that deal 1d4 damage. When he gains his second racial HD, he gains the Powerful Build racial trait and his 2 claw attacks deal 1d6 damage.
Therefore, (for a Medium creature) Powerful Build IS the equivalent of gaining Large size and dealing damage as a Large size creature for the purpose of determining their natural attacks. Then, you just have to decide whether a Goliath's unarmed strikes are natural attacks. HINT: the Player's Handbook II suggested one possible feat list for a human Monk that included Improved Natural Attack. So, yes, I would say that a Goliath Monk uses the Large Monk damage progression. Furthermore, I would houserule that the unarmed strikes of any Goliath (Monk, has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, doesn't have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, what have you) are treated as a Large creature, but that's just me.
runestar
02-23-07, 12:29 PM Well, I've checked. The Centaur Monster Class in either the Savage Species book or the Races of the Wild book starts the Centaur out as a Medium size creature and 2 hoof attacks that deal 1d4 damage. At the end of the class, the Centaur becomes Large and his hoof attacks deal 1d6 damage. In Races of Stone, the Feral Gargun begins as a Medium creature and has 2 claw attacks that deal 1d4 damage. When he gains his second racial HD, he gains the Powerful Build racial trait and his 2 claw attacks deal 1d6 damage.
Actually, you have proven nothing other than the existence of a creature with powerful build who does 1d6 with its claws.

A dretch is small sized, yet its claws deal 1d6 damage each. So do medium sized dragons(whose bite deals 1d8). There are tons of creatures whose natural attack damage do not conform with the table in the MM.

As such, I conclude that your example cannot be used to justify your initial claim.:)
spectralphoenix
02-23-07, 12:38 PM For a second I thought the thread title was "Goth Monks." Not another vampire thread...

Anyway, I agree that RAW a Goliath does normal medium sized damage. I don't think it would be terribly unbalancing to let him do better unarmed damage if you houseruled it, however.
Huzzah!
02-23-07, 12:54 PM That's exactly what we did, just houseruled it. I'm playing a goliath fighter/monk/reaping mauler.

If you know Brock Samson from Venture Bros., you know my character. :)
Vloorshad
02-23-07, 06:38 PM That's exactly what we did, just houseruled it. I'm playing a goliath fighter/monk/reaping mauler.

If you know Brock Samson from Venture Bros., you know my character. :)

So you'll be adding levels of Frenzied Berserker to the mix?
Huzzah!
02-23-07, 07:58 PM Heck yeah.

I'm also going to run around in the dark naked. To prey on their fears.
FrostHammer
02-23-07, 08:04 PM Well, there goes my idea for a Goliath Monk. However, I could build a Spiked chain Tripper with a Goliath. +4 bonus on trip attempts is rather nice...
Tectorman
02-23-07, 11:16 PM Actually, you have proven nothing other than the existence of a creature with powerful build who does 1d6 with its claws.

A dretch is small sized, yet its claws deal 1d6 damage each. So do medium sized dragons(whose bite deals 1d8). There are tons of creatures whose natural attack damage do not conform with the table in the MM.

As such, I conclude that your example cannot be used to justify your initial claim.:)

That is not my argument. My argument is this: a creature (in this case, a centaur) does x (in this case, 1d4) damage with a natural attack while considered a Medium creature. Then this creature gains Large size AND an increase in the damage of his natural attack. Likewise, a creature (in this case, a feral gargun) does x (in this case, 1d4) damage with a natural attack while considered a Medium creature. Then this creature gains Powerful Build and, lo and behold, the damage of his natural attack goes up.

Logically, this means that there is precedent for a natural attack to increase in damage with Powerful Build as surely as if the creature were to become a full size category larger. Whether its a gore attack that goes from 1d8 to 1d10 or a claw attack that goes from 1d3 to 1d4 is entirely irrelevant. What matters is that if increasing a size category increases a natural attack damage, then almost increasing a size category via Powerful Build will do the exact same thing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Huzzah! 02-19-07, 09:47 AM	Would a goliath monk do unarmed damage as a Large creature because of Powerful Build, or does it only apply to manufactured weapons?
KurenaiYami 02-19-07, 09:53 AM	It does Medium Monk damage.
runestar 02-19-07, 10:15 AM	Note that powerful build does not say anything about letting your unarmed attacks be treated as 1 size category bigger...;)
enygmatic_me 02-19-07, 05:01 PM	Note that powerful build does not say anything about letting your unarmed attacks be treated as 1 size category bigger...;) But it does say they are treated as one size category larger if it is beneficial to the character. I think an increase to damage is beneficial. As it is a little unclear on this and I haven't seen any errata, I would allow it.
bobothechimp 02-19-07, 05:55 PM	According to the FAQ, "Does the powerful build racial trait change the damage the character deals with unarmed strikes and natural weapons? No. The powerful build racial trait allows the character to 'use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty' but doesn't say anything aobut changing the damage dealt by his unarmed strikes or natural weapons."
enygmatic_me 02-19-07, 06:01 PM	According to the FAQ, "Does the powerful build racial trait change the damage the character deals with unarmed strikes and natural weapons? No. The powerful build racial trait allows the character to 'use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty' but doesn't say anything aobut changing the damage dealt by his unarmed strikes or natural weapons." Could you post the link please? I have no problem being wrong on this, but I would like a place to point my players as this has come up in our group.
bobothechimp 02-19-07, 06:12 PM	Certainly. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a That should be it.
Bladesinger Boy 02-19-07, 06:19 PM	It takes a feat, but Improved Natural Attack will increase your unarmed strike damage. I guess that's beside the question at hand, but in line with the maxing unarmed damage part of it.
enygmatic_me 02-19-07, 06:19 PM	Certainly. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a That should be it. Thanks.
runestar 02-19-07, 10:28 PM	But it does say they are treated as one size category larger if it is beneficial to the character. I think an increase to damage is beneficial. As it is a little unclear on this and I haven't seen any errata, I would allow it. There is nothing unclear about it... • Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. The benefits granted by powerful build are spelled out very clearly and explicitly. You get nothing more or less. Reread the entire powerful build description and tell me if it mentions anything about improving unarmed damage? Your mistake lies in only having read half the entry and conveniently neglecting the 2nd half.;)
Tectorman 02-22-07, 10:11 AM	Rules As Written says "no, they do not." Having said that, were I DMing a campaign, I would houserule that they could. Also, I have to wonder what if the Feral Gargun has a natural attack or not. If so, what is the damage dice? If it deals the same damage as a claw (or otherwise) attack from another Medium creature, then natural attacks do not get augmented by powerful build (as I type this, I'm assuming that Feral Garguns are Medium creatures, as I do not have my Races of Stone book with me). If a Feral Gargun's claw attack deals the same damage as a claw attack from a Large creature, however, that means that Powerful Build would allow a Goliath Monk to deal Large Monk damage.
runestar 02-22-07, 11:17 AM	I'm assuming that Feral Garguns are Medium creatures, as I do not have my Races of Stone book with me). If a Feral Gargun's claw attack deals the same damage as a claw attack from a Large creature, however, that means that Powerful Build would allow a Goliath Monk to deal Large Monk damage. Problem with that is that not all claw damage is standardized for different creatures of the same size category. Thus, you have no way of inferring if its claw damage(assuming it does have 1) is what it is because of powerful build, or perhaps simply more powerful than others of its size due to its unique makeup.:)
Tectorman 02-23-07, 11:57 AM	Well, I've checked. The Centaur Monster Class in either the Savage Species book or the Races of the Wild book starts the Centaur out as a Medium size creature and 2 hoof attacks that deal 1d4 damage. At the end of the class, the Centaur becomes Large and his hoof attacks deal 1d6 damage. In Races of Stone, the Feral Gargun begins as a Medium creature and has 2 claw attacks that deal 1d4 damage. When he gains his second racial HD, he gains the Powerful Build racial trait and his 2 claw attacks deal 1d6 damage. Therefore, (for a Medium creature) Powerful Build IS the equivalent of gaining Large size and dealing damage as a Large size creature for the purpose of determining their natural attacks. Then, you just have to decide whether a Goliath's unarmed strikes are natural attacks. HINT: the Player's Handbook II suggested one possible feat list for a human Monk that included Improved Natural Attack. So, yes, I would say that a Goliath Monk uses the Large Monk damage progression. Furthermore, I would houserule that the unarmed strikes of any Goliath (Monk, has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, doesn't have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, what have you) are treated as a Large creature, but that's just me.
runestar 02-23-07, 12:29 PM	Well, I've checked. The Centaur Monster Class in either the Savage Species book or the Races of the Wild book starts the Centaur out as a Medium size creature and 2 hoof attacks that deal 1d4 damage. At the end of the class, the Centaur becomes Large and his hoof attacks deal 1d6 damage. In Races of Stone, the Feral Gargun begins as a Medium creature and has 2 claw attacks that deal 1d4 damage. When he gains his second racial HD, he gains the Powerful Build racial trait and his 2 claw attacks deal 1d6 damage. Actually, you have proven nothing other than the existence of a creature with powerful build who does 1d6 with its claws. A dretch is small sized, yet its claws deal 1d6 damage each. So do medium sized dragons(whose bite deals 1d8). There are tons of creatures whose natural attack damage do not conform with the table in the MM. As such, I conclude that your example cannot be used to justify your initial claim.:)
spectralphoenix 02-23-07, 12:38 PM	For a second I thought the thread title was "Goth Monks." Not another vampire thread... Anyway, I agree that RAW a Goliath does normal medium sized damage. I don't think it would be terribly unbalancing to let him do better unarmed damage if you houseruled it, however.
Huzzah! 02-23-07, 12:54 PM	That's exactly what we did, just houseruled it. I'm playing a goliath fighter/monk/reaping mauler. If you know Brock Samson from Venture Bros., you know my character. :)
Vloorshad 02-23-07, 06:38 PM	That's exactly what we did, just houseruled it. I'm playing a goliath fighter/monk/reaping mauler. If you know Brock Samson from Venture Bros., you know my character. :) So you'll be adding levels of Frenzied Berserker to the mix?
Huzzah! 02-23-07, 07:58 PM	Heck yeah. I'm also going to run around in the dark naked. To prey on their fears.
FrostHammer 02-23-07, 08:04 PM	Well, there goes my idea for a Goliath Monk. However, I could build a Spiked chain Tripper with a Goliath. +4 bonus on trip attempts is rather nice...
Tectorman 02-23-07, 11:16 PM	Actually, you have proven nothing other than the existence of a creature with powerful build who does 1d6 with its claws. A dretch is small sized, yet its claws deal 1d6 damage each. So do medium sized dragons(whose bite deals 1d8). There are tons of creatures whose natural attack damage do not conform with the table in the MM. As such, I conclude that your example cannot be used to justify your initial claim.:) That is not my argument. My argument is this: a creature (in this case, a centaur) does x (in this case, 1d4) damage with a natural attack while considered a Medium creature. Then this creature gains Large size AND an increase in the damage of his natural attack. Likewise, a creature (in this case, a feral gargun) does x (in this case, 1d4) damage with a natural attack while considered a Medium creature. Then this creature gains Powerful Build and, lo and behold, the damage of his natural attack goes up. Logically, this means that there is precedent for a natural attack to increase in damage with Powerful Build as surely as if the creature were to become a full size category larger. Whether its a gore attack that goes from 1d8 to 1d10 or a claw attack that goes from 1d3 to 1d4 is entirely irrelevant. What matters is that if increasing a size category increases a natural attack damage, then almost increasing a size category via Powerful Build will do the exact same thing.