Post/Author/DateTime	Post
G_Mancer 02-22-07, 04:07 PM	i have a few ideas. at first i wanted d8, full bab, and good reflex and will- because thats what monstrous humanoids get as they advance. but now looking at the other paragon classes, they're more similar to the race's favored class. which means that the hit dice shoudl be d12s, full BAB, and good fort saves. also, all races have some skill they're good at that improves with the paragon classes. the choices i have to this are climb jump and sense motive. sense motive is the only skill they get an acual bonus to, but goliaths jumps are insane, and they're climbs are really good too- being able to jump without running, and accelerated climb withtout penalty. Intuitive Nature gives them a bonus on sense motive equal to paragon class level. dwarves gain improved darkvision, so i gave goliaths that too. there have been people who think that goliaths dont have it, but ALL monstrous humanoids have it. it's part of what makes them a monstrous humanoid, says so in the glossery of MM. so all i need is something to add to lvl 1 and something to add to lvl 2. and maybe something to trade for intuitive nature that has to do something with jump opr climb or something. maybe a feat (endurance) or something? also. pwerful build is suc ha large aspect(hahaha) of the race, shoudl something improve on that in the paragon classes as well? Goliath Paragon D12 Lvl BAB F, R, W Special 1st +1 +2, +0, +0 Intuitive Nature, 2nd +2 +3, +0, +0 Improved Darkvision 3rd +3 +3, +1, +1 Ability Boost (+2 Str)
enygmatic_me 02-22-07, 05:34 PM	An improvement to Powerful build would be to much. You might want to look at the racial feats for some inspiration. Maybe give an improvement based upon a racial feat they already have. You could also give them an improvement to jump, something along the lines of a level based bonus to the roll. You could give them a climb speed (the assuredness of living in the mountains has allowed them to climb better-or something) equal to half their base move. Being a sure-footed race you could give them stability like a dwarf. Hope these suggestions have helped.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-22-07, 09:19 PM	I would recommend Giant Hit Dice. D8 hit points, 3/4 BAB, good Fortitude. I would recommend using that because it gives you more room to work with for the class's abilities. I don't see any problem with giving the half-giant Large size through its paragon class.
enygmatic_me 02-23-07, 12:31 AM	I don't see any problem with giving the half-giant Large size through its paragon class. I have to disagree with this. The idea of a large creature that can wield huge weapons by 3rd level is over powering in my opinion and is far better, in my opinion, than the +2 to an ability score that usually is the capstone of a Paragon class. I hate to use this example as it seems to be very narrow in scope and way to commonly looked at, but that commonality is the reason it must be brought up. A 3rd level Goliath Paragon with a Spiked Chain would have a reach of 15' and deals 2d8 points of damage. With a Greatsword, 10' reach dealing 2d10 points of damage. That isn't even getting into the weapons from Races of Stone. A size increase with Powerful Build is just too much for a three level class that can be taken at 1st level.
runestar 02-23-07, 12:42 AM	Giant HD makes no sense, since they are monstrous humanoids. They hate giants, right? Maybe FE: giants or some sort of bonus when fighting them? I can't really think of how to improve powerful build any more.
enygmatic_me 02-23-07, 12:44 AM	They hate giants, right? Maybe FE: giants or some sort of bonus when fighting them? I can't really think of how to improve powerful build any more. This is a good idea, something like what gnomes and halflings get.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-23-07, 12:56 AM	Giant HD makes no sense, since they are monstrous humanoids. They hate giants, right? Maybe FE: giants or some sort of bonus when fighting them? I can't really think of how to improve powerful build any more. Eh? Oh, my mistake, I'm thinking half-giants. Never mind. Still, I think that a few "throwaway" feats like Athletic and Endurance (never mind Diehard) as prerequisites would make it workable, all they get is reach, and they suffer the -1 attack and AC penalties for being Large.
enygmatic_me 02-23-07, 01:13 AM	Still, I think that a few "throwaway" feats like Athletic and Endurance (never mind Diehard) as prerequisites would make it workable, all they get is reach, and they suffer the -1 attack and AC penalties for being Large. Paragon classes have no prerequisites and are capable of being entered at level one. That is why having an increase to size at 3rd level with Powerful build is to much. If this was a prestige class with prerequisites I could understand working something like a size increase in, but not in a Paragon Class.
runestar 02-23-07, 02:01 AM	The throwaway feats gave me an idea. Is in within their flavour to give them 1-2 bonus feats from a list of athletic-inclined feat list?
Huzzah! 02-23-07, 12:27 PM	How about this? Also, can someone tell me how I can use Tab with these darn posts? Goliath Paragon Lvl.....BAB.........F.....R....W........ ..Abilities 1........+0.........+2...+0...+0........ .+1 Str, +2 Jump checks 2........+1.........+3...+1...+1........ .+1 Con, +1 natural armor 3........+2.........+3...+1...+1........ .+1 Str, +2 Climb checks
enygmatic_me 02-23-07, 09:18 PM	How about this? Also, can someone tell me how I can use Tab with these darn posts? Goliath Paragon Lvl.....BAB.........F.....R....W........ ..Abilities 1........+0.........+2...+0...+0........ .+1 Str, +2 Jump checks 2........+1.........+3...+1...+1........ .+1 Con, +1 natural armor 3........+2.........+3...+1...+1........ .+1 Str, +2 Climb checks It diverges from the way the other Paragon classes are set up, but that is not a bad thing. Compared to the other Paragon classes you would end up better by +1 Ability score. +1 Natural Armor. Not sure about this. Goliath don't normally have Natural Armor. They can gain Natural Armor with a feat though, so I guess this is just like them gaining a feat for free. Over all I would say this is most likely balanced against the other Paragon classes (maybe even a little weak). Not the way I would have done it, but not bad.
FreAkOuTRG 02-23-07, 09:23 PM	Balance issues aside, it seems a bit bland. Perhaps Rage 1/day at first level, a size increase at second, and +2 strength at 3rd? Still not quite right to me...
enygmatic_me 02-23-07, 09:28 PM	Balance issues aside, it seems a bit bland. Perhaps Rage 1/day at first level, a size increase at second, and +2 strength at 3rd? Still not quite right to me... Size increase still seems to much of a gain for such a low leveled class. Rage I am not to sure of either. How would that work if the character then took Barbarian levels with the racial substitution variants? The one thing that I think we can all agree with is that +2 Strength as the capstone makes perfect sense.
runestar 02-23-07, 09:38 PM	Seems a bit on the weak side. Maybe at least make it a full bab class? What do jump and climb checks have to do with a goliath?:confused:
enygmatic_me 02-23-07, 09:57 PM	What do jump and climb checks have to do with a goliath?:confused: Mountain Movement race feature.
Huzzah! 02-23-07, 11:52 PM	I put in the Climb and Jump checks for their Mountain Movement feature. The natural AC bonus was to reflect their lithoderms (equivalent of a feat from RoS). I used a Fort based save build and a 3/4 BAB to reflect their rugged nature. I didn't think there should be a +2 Str as a capstone simply because it seems silly that a creature would all of a sudden become stronger. It made more sense to have it become stronger spread out more across the classes. Perhaps not mechanically advantageous, but I think it fits the flavor more.
Huzzah! 02-23-07, 11:55 PM	How about this? Goliath Paragon Lvl.....BAB.........F.....R....W........ ..Abilities 1........+1.........+2...+0...+0........ .Mettle, +2 Jump checks 2........+2.........+3...+1...+1........ .+1 natural armor 3........+3.........+3...+1...+1........ .+2 Str, +2 Climb checks
enygmatic_me 02-24-07, 01:17 AM	I put in the Climb and Jump checks for their Mountain Movement feature. The natural AC bonus was to reflect their lithoderms (equivalent of a feat from RoS). I used a Fort based save build and a 3/4 BAB to reflect their rugged nature. I didn't think there should be a +2 Str as a capstone simply because it seems silly that a creature would all of a sudden become stronger. It made more sense to have it become stronger spread out more across the classes. Perhaps not mechanically advantageous, but I think it fits the flavor more. The +2 ability boost is standard for Paragon classes. Giving them Mettle isn't a bad idea, it is basically one of the rogue racial substitutions for Goliaths. This does leave the Goliath open to not take the racial substitution level and gain Evasion if they go rogue. Still not sure how I feel about the Natural Armor bonus. Kind of feels like filler where something more flavor oriented could go. As I have no idea what that might be though this is better than anything I have currently.
G_Mancer 02-25-07, 04:20 PM	How about this? Goliath Paragon Lvl.....BAB.........F.....R....W........ ..Abilities 1........+1.........+2...+0...+0........ .Mettle, +2 Jump checks 2........+2.........+3...+0...+0........ .+1 natural armor 3........+3.........+3...+1...+1........ .+2 Str, +2 Climb checks this is better. i think maybe instead of gaining +2 at 1st and 3rd to jumps and climb, they gain a +1 per class lvl at 2nd or something. maybe they can just get it at first lvl. i've also thought of a way to improve powerful build. Improved p. build (i hate the name) instead of being treated as a size larger, they get 1.5x the normal bonus. ie. a +6 to grapple instead of +4, which would also apply to sunder and trips and stuff. Also i gave them a bonus feat at first lvl Mountaineer: lets goliaths take 10s on jumps and climbs. it's in RoS. to be something like: Goliath Paragon..........D12 Lvl.....BAB.........F.....R....W........ ..Abilities 1........+1.........+2...+0...+0........ ., Steady Mountaineer, 1/lvl jumps&climbs checks 2........+2.........+3...+0...+0........ .. Mettle, Darkvision +30ft 3........+3.........+3...+1...+1........ .+2 Str, Improved Powerful Build Edit: i took another look at the other paragon classes... none of them gain anything but +2 ability boost at 3rd lvl. maybe it's a bit strong with Imp. P. Build, so it can be take nout completely, but i'd rather just move it. which means that something has to go.
The_Shaman 02-25-07, 06:22 PM	I'd give them FE giants instead of mettle, aside from that it looks cool.
Evangeline 03-05-07, 03:56 AM	Ressurecting the thread, I did a search only after I came up with my own paragon class, with help from a few optimizers in my group. Here is what I came up with... instead of the +2 bonus most paragons receive, I incorporated the UA level adjustment buyoff as the capstone ability. This fits as the goliath already has massive bonuses compared to a 0LA race, so instead of yet more bonus, he lowers the LA. Instead of large size or improving powerful build, I stole the barbarian racial substitution level and gave it as the 2nd level ability. At first level, you gain the bonus markings, which is supposed to be a sign of goliaths destined for greatness; I thought that better than a skill bonus, but not overpowered. I also went with barbarian advancement in HD and saves, with skills copied mostly from the half-orc paragon, as I felt it the closest list. I changed it up a bit...but not much. Hit Dice: d12 The goliath paragon’s class skills (and the key ability for each) are balance (dex), climb (str), concentration (con), craft (int), intimidate (cha), jump (str), profession (wis), sense motive (wis), survival (wis), and swim (str). Skill Points: 2 plus Intelligence Modifier Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Auspicious Marking, Bonus Marking 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Mountain Fury 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Remove Level Adjustment Auspicious Marking: The Goliath Paragon gains this feat. Bonus Marking: The goliath may select one bonus feat from the following list; Markings of the Blessed, Markings of the Hunter, Markings of the Magi, Markings of the Maker, or Markings of the Warrior. Mountain Fury: A Goliath Paragon taps into the mountain’s size and strength to enter a state much like a Barbarian’s rage. This ability is identical to the barbarian’s rage ability with the following exceptions; When he rages, his base size category increases to Large. (Although his size category increases by one step, the goliath paragon’s height only increases by one foot or so, and his mass by 30% - 40%, so all of his equipment still fits and functions normally.) This change increases the paragon’s space and reach to 10 feet and applies a -1 penalty to attack rolls and armor class. However, he does not gain additional benefits on weapon size and grapple checks, since he already has them from his powerful build ability. Likewise, he gains no additional benefit from the powerful build ability while Large size, he is considered Large for all contested checks such as bull rush, trip, or overrun attack actions. The Goliath Paragon gains a +2 Strength bonus from his increased size in addition to the +4 Strength bonus from rage. Otherwise, he gains the normal benefits and drawbacks from rage (+4 Con, +2 Will saves, and -2 AC) and the normal restrictions on spellcasting and skill usage while raged. He may stay raged for 3 rounds plus one round per point of (new) constitution modifier, after which time he becomes fatigued. If the paragon has any levels in the barbarian class, or any other class which grants the Rage ability, it is instead treated as this ability. This ability qualifies the Goliath Paragon for any feat or prestige class with Rage as a prerequisite. note: If the paragon has already selected the barbarian racial substitution level with this same ability, or later selects that racial substitution level after gaining this ability, he instead gains the Extra Rage feat. Remove Level Adjustment: The Goliath Paragon no longer has a level adjustment of +1, and loses all experience points above his new character level plus 1 (but now requires less experience points to gain a new level). For example, a goliath character with 2 levels of Barbarian and 2 levels of Goliath Paragon has a character level of 4, with a level adjustment of +1; requiring 15,000 experience points to go up to 5th character level. When he does gain enough XP to add a new level, he chooses to add the 3rd level of Goliath Paragon as his new class level. He removes the level adjustment, and also loses 4,999 experience points and has 10,001 remaining (the XP required to reach 5th level, plus 1). He now has 5 class levels, needing 4,999 more experience points to gain 6th character level and his next class level. From now on he has no level adjustment, and his Experience Points are in line with his character level.
enygmatic_me 03-05-07, 04:44 AM	Ressurecting the thread, I did a search only after I came up with my own paragon class, with help from a few optimizers in my group. Here is what I came up with... instead of the +2 bonus most paragons receive, I incorporated the UA level adjustment buyoff as the capstone ability. This fits as the goliath already has massive bonuses compared to a 0LA race, so instead of yet more bonus, he lowers the LA. Instead of large size or improving powerful build, I stole the barbarian racial substitution level and gave it as the 2nd level ability. At first level, you gain the bonus markings, which is supposed to be a sign of goliaths destined for greatness; I thought that better than a skill bonus, but not overpowered. I also went with barbarian advancement in HD and saves, with skills copied mostly from the half-orc paragon, as I felt it the closest list. I changed it up a bit...but not much. Hit Dice: d12 The goliath paragon’s class skills (and the key ability for each) are balance (dex), climb (str), concentration (con), craft (int), intimidate (cha), jump (str), profession (wis), sense motive (wis), survival (wis), and swim (str). Skill Points: 2 plus Intelligence Modifier Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Auspicious Marking, Bonus Marking 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Mountain Fury 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Remove Level Adjustment Auspicious Marking: The Goliath Paragon gains this feat. Bonus Marking: The goliath may select one bonus feat from the following list; Markings of the Blessed, Markings of the Hunter, Markings of the Magi, Markings of the Maker, or Markings of the Warrior. Mountain Fury: A Goliath Paragon taps into the mountain’s size and strength to enter a state much like a Barbarian’s rage. This ability is identical to the barbarian’s rage ability with the following exceptions; When he rages, his base size category increases to Large. (Although his size category increases by one step, the goliath paragon’s height only increases by one foot or so, and his mass by 30% - 40%, so all of his equipment still fits and functions normally.) This change increases the paragon’s space and reach to 10 feet and applies a -1 penalty to attack rolls and armor class. However, he does not gain additional benefits on weapon size and grapple checks, since he already has them from his powerful build ability. Likewise, he gains no additional benefit from the powerful build ability while Large size, he is considered Large for all contested checks such as bull rush, trip, or overrun attack actions. The Goliath Paragon gains a +2 Strength bonus from his increased size in addition to the +4 Strength bonus from rage. Otherwise, he gains the normal benefits and drawbacks from rage (+4 Con, +2 Will saves, and -2 AC) and the normal restrictions on spellcasting and skill usage while raged. He may stay raged for 3 rounds plus one round per point of (new) constitution modifier, after which time he becomes fatigued. If the paragon has any levels in the barbarian class, or any other class which grants the Rage ability, it is instead treated as this ability. This ability qualifies the Goliath Paragon for any feat or prestige class with Rage as a prerequisite. note: If the paragon has already selected the barbarian racial substitution level with this same ability, or later selects that racial substitution level after gaining this ability, he instead gains the Extra Rage feat. Remove Level Adjustment: The Goliath Paragon no longer has a level adjustment of +1, and loses all experience points above his new character level plus 1 (but now requires less experience points to gain a new level). For example, a goliath character with 2 levels of Barbarian and 2 levels of Goliath Paragon has a character level of 4, with a level adjustment of +1; requiring 15,000 experience points to go up to 5th character level. When he does gain enough XP to add a new level, he chooses to add the 3rd level of Goliath Paragon as his new class level. He removes the level adjustment, and also loses 4,999 experience points and has 10,001 remaining (the XP required to reach 5th level, plus 1). He now has 5 class levels, needing 4,999 more experience points to gain 6th character level and his next class level. From now on he has no level adjustment, and his Experience Points are in line with his character level. I like everything about your set-up except the Mountain Fury at 2nd level. Besides the LA buy off this offers nothing that a Goliath without the Paragon Class couldn't get. Maybe something along the lines of dwarven stability or an increase in movement. Just my opinion.
Evangeline 03-05-07, 06:46 AM	In many ways, that was the point; the paragon isn't anything you couldn't get with normal class levels; but it gives those things to you sooner and better; in 3 levels you get 2 to 3 bonus feats (depending on if you have mountain rage already), possibly a free rage a day (for non barbarian goliaths) - this could be huge if you plan to focus on other classes; sure instead of a level of the paragon class you can instead grab a level of barbarian with substitution; but then you give up the 2 free feats and the 3rd ability... LA buyoff. And since not all DMs allow LA buyoff, it is a viable way to go about getting that. So, now that I have presented the reasoning behind and arguments for my build... I think you're right, lol. I like getting the free markings - it seems perfect for the paragon to automatically be destined for greatness. And the mountain rage without barb levels is nice for me, since my build wasn't planning on any barb levels. But it doesn't fit with the concept of a paragon of the goliaths. The level buyoff is perfect for a paragon; you get a bonus class level instead of +2 strength... I think that is great (especially since the bonus level could be warhulk if you really want the +2 strength). That leaves an empty ability at 2nd level. Stability doesn't really fit in with the goliath as I see it - powerful build more than adequately covers their size and mass. Increased movement seems to fit, but feels weak to me. Since the powerful build doesn't apply to unarmed attacks RAW, and since I like the concept, what about treating their unarmed attacks as large weapons, and as part of that giving the goliath paragon a natural slam attack? Or, thinking back to the rationalization used by my buddies who are good at optimization... maybe the mountain rage DOES fit. The favored class is barbarian, so they automatically gain the 1st level substitution for barbarians... and if they already had it (or later get the barb class), they instead gain an extra 4 rages each day for free. That makes sense - it fits right in with their stereotypical class... I dunno, maybe more suggestions will come along.
G_Mancer 03-06-07, 05:14 PM	They dont HAVE to take the racial sub. l;evel if they dont want to... and all the DMs i play accept Unearthed arcana(for the most part) so i cant se not getting anything except bonuses to saves and BAB and HD better than gaining a lvlof barb. for my own class, i'm sticking with the +2 str. warhulk is powerful, but i like my Int, Wis, and Cha skills. stability was mentioned by a friend, but i dotn think if fits either. i think maybe Fast movement woudl work, and not be underpowered if it stacks with fast movement you might get in other classes. what do you peeps think about think about that? i jsut had a thought.. maybe if they gained a 5ft or or something.
FreAkOuTRG 03-06-07, 05:30 PM	Size increase still seems to much of a gain for such a low leveled class. Rage I am not to sure of either. How would that work if the character then took Barbarian levels with the racial substitution variants? The one thing that I think we can all agree with is that +2 Strength as the capstone makes perfect sense. Too much? It's just getting reach, and he gets a penalty to Attack and AC.
enygmatic_me 03-06-07, 07:46 PM	Too much? It's just getting reach, and he gets a penalty to Attack and AC. A -1 to Attack means almost nothing to a race with a bonus, especially a good bonus, to strength. A -1 to AC doesn't mean much either when you can now threaten a much larger area and wear better armor. Now Reach means you threaten 20 squares instead of just 8. Add in a reach weapon, like Spiked Chain, and you have a character at 2nd level that threatens 44 squares. That, to me, seems too powerful at 2nd level. Oh, and they also gain double carrying capacity. Which is a huge benefit in a game that keeps track of encumbrance.
G_Mancer 03-09-07, 11:24 AM	i like the idea of more carry capacity, however, it's more than just how much your able to lift, but how much you can fit. sure, my char may have a light load carrying a building, but theres no way it fits in a way that i can function... (as an extreme example)