Goliath [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Goliath [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
QnAobvious
11-27-07, 02:10 AM A argument has arisen that I shall let the general public of DnD decide instead of bringing down the DM hammer and saying no.

Powerful Build: the ability states that a Goliath is considered a Large creature in many ways, all of the examples and styles that Powerful build considers them large however is Combat oriented.

argument: Goliath Poweful build lets have the carrying capacity of a Large creature. this means 2x the carrying totals found in the PHB

Verdict?
Napoleon_the_Clown
11-27-07, 03:35 AM No, it doesn't. Powerful build treats you as one size category larger for the purposes of: Grapple, weapon size, or any other combat situation it would be beneficial. It'd say if carrying capacity were affected. Goliaths have a nice Str bonus as is.
JLaurHughes
11-27-07, 03:48 AM There are two ways to disprove the argument. I only need the one.

A goliath is still a medium sized creature, thus still has the carrying capacity of a Medium sized creature. It is not a physically large character.

Powerful build only changes the modifiers related to effects such as opposed checks as noted in the Races of Stone under the description of the ability.

Until there is an official word on this stating otherwise, treat powerful build as combat related effects/opposed rolls only.
Orenmir
11-27-07, 09:45 AM A Goliath is a medium sized creature. Powerful Build gives a Goliath some "large-sized" attributes, all of which are listed in the description -- nowhere in that text does it mention augmented carrying capacity.

I'm curious what the basis of your players' argument is. It sounds like they are trying to take advantage of the rules or you! Ask them to show you the text that states PB grants large carrying capacity.
QnAobvious
11-27-07, 02:44 PM heh, his argument was a simple one and instead of just flat out saying no I decided to see what other people thought.

his argument is as followes. In the Goliath history frost giants enslaved Goliaths to do work they were too big to accomplish themselves, assuming this is in the form of building we would have to assume that the bldg blocks being used were of roughly 500 pounds and since they are a primitave "not stupid" race they probably wouldn't be using a Block n Tackle, as this assumtion only the strongest of Goliaths wld be viable to be slaves for the frost giants. if they carried things tho as they were large then it simply wouldn't matter how strong they were since most of the goliaths on average would have a str of 16 or higher which with large scale would mean they could easily lift things.

as far as this goes I was willing to consider it and thought how funny it would be when he attempted to pick something up that was larger than he was and I told him, hmm you just can't seem to get a grip. or when he went to lift something he knew for a fact he could and the statement turned into. As you go to lift it you hear the wood creak and pieces come off in your hand. Roll reflex not to fall on your arse for my kicks and giggles. for I personally see being able to lift it depending on the bulk of the item you are lifting you might be able to lift 1050 pounts over your head, but how many of us can lift 200 pounds and can't seem to lift that refrigerator properly ??
Orenmir
11-27-07, 03:00 PM we would have to assume that the bldg blocks being used were of roughly 500 pounds

Why in the world would anyone make that assumtion? We humans use bricks that weigh 5 pounds to build structures. Why would Frost Giants use 500-pound bricks exclusively?

Anyway... You shouldn't use fluff to bend/break rules. The rules are written quite clearly; breaking them causes imbalance. Too much imbalance can make the game unplayable or at least no fun to play. Not to say letting a Goliath double his carrying capacity is going to ruin the game... I'm just relaying the rules.
AtsuiShoto
11-27-07, 08:24 PM Goliaths are already a race very ripe for the power-hungry player to pluck. Add too many things at too low of a level and watch carefully as the other players begin to wonder why they didn't choose goliath characters themselves.
jradd777
11-27-07, 10:09 PM There's only one way I could see an interpretation that agrees with your player. IF there was an opposed check for the carrying capacity, for which the player would receive a size modifier or special size modifier that would be beneficial, they get it. Technically, it does list specific situations but also stipulates that it's anytime there is an opposed check they get the large size bonus if it's beneficial to them to receive it, without saying that it's only limited to the conditions mentioned.

I don't think there is technically an opposed check from what I can tell, so they wouldn't get it, though...
HernetheHunter
11-27-07, 11:11 PM I think they cover this in the FAQ.
Crimson_Concerto
11-27-07, 11:54 PM Powerful Build says EXACTLY the circumstances when a character is considered large, and carrying capacity isn't one of them.
jradd777
11-28-07, 12:05 AM That's partly incorrect. It gives examples but not exactly every possible situation; it only says "[...] (such as[...]". The examples do not include disarm or overrun, probably among others, where they would also receive the bonus, but you're probably right that carrying capacity isn't included because there's no opposing roll and it's not one of the two or three other instances.

I could understand the confusion, though.
QnAobvious
11-28-07, 02:56 AM .. now he is chomping at bits...

Rock Throw. States that a goliath qualifies because of Powerful build
Throw Ally states that you throw the ally as thrown weapon. it also states that the charcter your throwing has to be one size catagory smaller than you.

the argument he has put forth is this. if the Goliath is wielding the creature as a weapon he is technically large there is no opposed roll.
jradd777
11-28-07, 03:39 AM Nah, I'd say he's technically a medium creature able to wield a technical large creature's equivalent weapon... not that he is technically large. I think... maybe I'll edit later but I'm pretty sure that you're right and he's just reaching to stretch that powerful build for all it's worth... although, more and more it does seem to be less than clear as it could be...

...and the ruling about the large weapon is stated separately from the opposed roll statement (ipso facto, not under the same circumstance for allowing "largeness" but a different one, in that way they are simply a medium creature able to use large sized weapons, not large)
QnAobvious
11-28-07, 03:50 AM Im not letting him have the lifting capacity but it does bring up a very good question as to why goliaths qualify for Throw Rock if they are not large and Powerful Build does not make the count as large for wielding the weapon.

after all there is no opposed roll for to get the feat! :D
jradd777
11-28-07, 03:58 AM Im not letting him have the lifting capacity but it does bring up a very good question as to why goliaths qualify for Throw Rock if they are not large and Powerful Build does not make the count as large for wielding the weapon.

after all there is no opposed roll for to get the feat! :D

I'd just look at it as a specific exception to the rule (however, throw rock is sort of an ability to use a weapon intended for large size or larger creatures). Plus, their flavor implies that they have throwing games that they play a lot that maybe gives them a sort of proficiency?

And again, the opposed roll thing is one set of circumstances, their ability to use large-sized weapons is a separate circumstance entirely, not meant to be tied to the same reason for being, IMO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
QnAobvious 11-27-07, 02:10 AM	A argument has arisen that I shall let the general public of DnD decide instead of bringing down the DM hammer and saying no. Powerful Build: the ability states that a Goliath is considered a Large creature in many ways, all of the examples and styles that Powerful build considers them large however is Combat oriented. argument: Goliath Poweful build lets have the carrying capacity of a Large creature. this means 2x the carrying totals found in the PHB Verdict?
Napoleon_the_Clown 11-27-07, 03:35 AM	No, it doesn't. Powerful build treats you as one size category larger for the purposes of: Grapple, weapon size, or any other combat situation it would be beneficial. It'd say if carrying capacity were affected. Goliaths have a nice Str bonus as is.
JLaurHughes 11-27-07, 03:48 AM	There are two ways to disprove the argument. I only need the one. A goliath is still a medium sized creature, thus still has the carrying capacity of a Medium sized creature. It is not a physically large character. Powerful build only changes the modifiers related to effects such as opposed checks as noted in the Races of Stone under the description of the ability. Until there is an official word on this stating otherwise, treat powerful build as combat related effects/opposed rolls only.
Orenmir 11-27-07, 09:45 AM	A Goliath is a medium sized creature. Powerful Build gives a Goliath some "large-sized" attributes, all of which are listed in the description -- nowhere in that text does it mention augmented carrying capacity. I'm curious what the basis of your players' argument is. It sounds like they are trying to take advantage of the rules or you! Ask them to show you the text that states PB grants large carrying capacity.
QnAobvious 11-27-07, 02:44 PM	heh, his argument was a simple one and instead of just flat out saying no I decided to see what other people thought. his argument is as followes. In the Goliath history frost giants enslaved Goliaths to do work they were too big to accomplish themselves, assuming this is in the form of building we would have to assume that the bldg blocks being used were of roughly 500 pounds and since they are a primitave "not stupid" race they probably wouldn't be using a Block n Tackle, as this assumtion only the strongest of Goliaths wld be viable to be slaves for the frost giants. if they carried things tho as they were large then it simply wouldn't matter how strong they were since most of the goliaths on average would have a str of 16 or higher which with large scale would mean they could easily lift things. as far as this goes I was willing to consider it and thought how funny it would be when he attempted to pick something up that was larger than he was and I told him, hmm you just can't seem to get a grip. or when he went to lift something he knew for a fact he could and the statement turned into. As you go to lift it you hear the wood creak and pieces come off in your hand. Roll reflex not to fall on your arse for my kicks and giggles. for I personally see being able to lift it depending on the bulk of the item you are lifting you might be able to lift 1050 pounts over your head, but how many of us can lift 200 pounds and can't seem to lift that refrigerator properly ??
Orenmir 11-27-07, 03:00 PM	we would have to assume that the bldg blocks being used were of roughly 500 pounds Why in the world would anyone make that assumtion? We humans use bricks that weigh 5 pounds to build structures. Why would Frost Giants use 500-pound bricks exclusively? Anyway... You shouldn't use fluff to bend/break rules. The rules are written quite clearly; breaking them causes imbalance. Too much imbalance can make the game unplayable or at least no fun to play. Not to say letting a Goliath double his carrying capacity is going to ruin the game... I'm just relaying the rules.
AtsuiShoto 11-27-07, 08:24 PM	Goliaths are already a race very ripe for the power-hungry player to pluck. Add too many things at too low of a level and watch carefully as the other players begin to wonder why they didn't choose goliath characters themselves.
jradd777 11-27-07, 10:09 PM	There's only one way I could see an interpretation that agrees with your player. IF there was an opposed check for the carrying capacity, for which the player would receive a size modifier or special size modifier that would be beneficial, they get it. Technically, it does list specific situations but also stipulates that it's anytime there is an opposed check they get the large size bonus if it's beneficial to them to receive it, without saying that it's only limited to the conditions mentioned. I don't think there is technically an opposed check from what I can tell, so they wouldn't get it, though...
HernetheHunter 11-27-07, 11:11 PM	I think they cover this in the FAQ.
Crimson_Concerto 11-27-07, 11:54 PM	Powerful Build says EXACTLY the circumstances when a character is considered large, and carrying capacity isn't one of them.
jradd777 11-28-07, 12:05 AM	That's partly incorrect. It gives examples but not exactly every possible situation; it only says "[...] (such as[...]". The examples do not include disarm or overrun, probably among others, where they would also receive the bonus, but you're probably right that carrying capacity isn't included because there's no opposing roll and it's not one of the two or three other instances. I could understand the confusion, though.
QnAobvious 11-28-07, 02:56 AM	.. now he is chomping at bits... Rock Throw. States that a goliath qualifies because of Powerful build Throw Ally states that you throw the ally as thrown weapon. it also states that the charcter your throwing has to be one size catagory smaller than you. the argument he has put forth is this. if the Goliath is wielding the creature as a weapon he is technically large there is no opposed roll.
jradd777 11-28-07, 03:39 AM	Nah, I'd say he's technically a medium creature able to wield a technical large creature's equivalent weapon... not that he is technically large. I think... maybe I'll edit later but I'm pretty sure that you're right and he's just reaching to stretch that powerful build for all it's worth... although, more and more it does seem to be less than clear as it could be... ...and the ruling about the large weapon is stated separately from the opposed roll statement (ipso facto, not under the same circumstance for allowing "largeness" but a different one, in that way they are simply a medium creature able to use large sized weapons, not large)
QnAobvious 11-28-07, 03:50 AM	Im not letting him have the lifting capacity but it does bring up a very good question as to why goliaths qualify for Throw Rock if they are not large and Powerful Build does not make the count as large for wielding the weapon. after all there is no opposed roll for to get the feat! :D
jradd777 11-28-07, 03:58 AM	Im not letting him have the lifting capacity but it does bring up a very good question as to why goliaths qualify for Throw Rock if they are not large and Powerful Build does not make the count as large for wielding the weapon. after all there is no opposed roll for to get the feat! :D I'd just look at it as a specific exception to the rule (however, throw rock is sort of an ability to use a weapon intended for large size or larger creatures). Plus, their flavor implies that they have throwing games that they play a lot that maybe gives them a sort of proficiency? And again, the opposed roll thing is one set of circumstances, their ability to use large-sized weapons is a separate circumstance entirely, not meant to be tied to the same reason for being, IMO.