Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wharin 04-10-06, 10:18 PM	_____________________ http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/Wharin/Gothin2small.jpg GOTHIN, or HALF-ELF/HALF-ORC They were never supposed to have happened. The elven gods made sure of it. Elf and Orc blood were simply not supposed to mix. Not like this. Yet, happened they have. Though the exact details have been hidden from most, a number of good educated guesses, combined with information gleaned from high-ranking Orc Spiritualists, paint what’s believed to be the most plausible of answers. When Corellon Larethian plucked out the eye of Gruumsh, it awoke something inside of him. Something more than simple brute force. Of course he would still give the façade of being a brute, which wasn’t hard, for a brute he largely still was. But now it wasn’t all he was, not really. After retreating to lick his wounds, he went into thinking, deep, hard, angry thinking. He wanted revenge. Not just revenge on the elven god himself, but something even more devestating. Now its unclear how he did all of this, and most of this is speculation. Some say he struck a deal with another elven deity who was angry with Corellon. Others say it was just with some random trickery God, who did it either out of spite, or out of simple curiosity. Either way, he managed to skim some of the secrets to the elves’ creation. With that secret he was able to make the slightest of changes to his own creatures. It wasn’t anything too obvious, but its results were sublime. If there was one thing that Orc’s love to do, and that was the act of raping and pillaging. Up till the recent years, though, aside from the abject obvious, nothing was ever substantiated from it. After repelling the Orcish raid, Elven survivors simply picked themselves up and moved on, with the occasional retaliatory raid. But now the orcish presence wouldn’t leave so easily. And so the Elf/Orc, or Gothin (elvish: enemy child) came to being. Elven Elders were not so sure how to handle this. The first thoughts were to snuff the children out. Out of fear and anger. Not only were the attempts largely unsuccessful, but any clerics who assisted such acts found themselves fallen from grace. Any attempts of divine consultation to explain why have been met with deaf ear and cold shoulder. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that the child is still innocent, and elven. Perhaps Corellon feels partly responsible for allowing this to happen and will not let violence be the answer to his mistake. Not this time. Now the first generation of Gothin are coming into adulthood. Unsure of what exactly to do with them, most elves decided to bring them into the druidic order in search of emotional balance. Ironically, any Gothin raised in an Orcish tribe are also primarily raised in druidic orders for Orcs look to this mentally sharper, wiser and forceful breed as spiritual advisors. Its unclear if this is the result Gruumsh had hoped for. Clearly, this has been at least a partial victory, by not only forcing elves to raise his bastard children, but also filling in his own ranks with suitable spiritualists. It has, however, redoubled the Orcish effort to raid more elven communities, if solely for the purpose filling their ranks with more Gothin. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/Wharin/Gothinsmall2.jpg Personality: Gothin are remarked by their unnatural calmness. Being taught in the druidic tradition, Gothin, whether they continue their lives as druids or not, have a great respect for nature and balance. Should a Gothin be abandoned at birth for whatever reason, and not brought up in the druidic tradition are likely to be overly anarchic and too much to handle for any who would seek to train them. But even these Gothin are remarkably sharp for someone with orc blood running through their veins. Physical Description: From a distance, Gothin resemble comely traditional Half-Orcs, marked with finer hair, fewer battle scars, and a more completed nose. Upon further inspection, one notices something horribly disturbing. While Gothin have retained some of their Orcish strength, it’s all packed on to an Elven core. The result is powerful arms but with a ribcage, spine, and pelvis that sticks out to extreme ranges, giving the impression of constant mal-nutrition. Their skin is often impossibly pale, letting veins and arteries show through, giving them an almost unholy aura. And aside from any hair that frames their face or is on top of their head, most of their hair is fine and largely not noticeable. But what’s even more noticeable about Gothin are their eyes, or more specifically their left eye. At a glance, it appears like they have no eye there, instead just a black hole. But in reality, it’s just that their eye, cornea, iris, and pupil are all black. It’s this eye that is their legacy. It serves as a reminder of the elven wrath, and that there are no innocent people while also providing them with particular sage-like power. In rare case, the iris might take on a silvery sheen, instead of a black pitch. It is unsure what this exactly means, but both Orc and Elf communities have interpreted this as a powerful omen. Relations: The Elves regard Gothin with fear, awe and disgust. With their rapid growth, unwholesome visage, and apparent support by their own god, they are confused and frustrated. While no violence will be thrust upon an elven-raised Gothin, they are not exactly happy with their presence. Orcs hold the Elf/Orcs in high regard, seeing it as the ultimate revenge to thrust upon the elves with, while providing themselves with their own spiritual advisors via kidnapped mothers-in-waiting, and kidnapped men forced to breed with orcish women, typically with the help of potions and concoctions. Most of the remaining races hold Elf/Orcs in the same regard as traditional Half-Orcs; a mixture of pity and scorn. Most Gothin regard Orcs, Elves, and even themselves in the same way their community would. A elf raised Gothin will grow to be at least resentful of Orcs and orc-raised Gothin, and vice versa. Alignment: The natural tendency for Gothin is to be rash, BUT druidic teachings, starting at an early age, has channeled their attentions to a more spiritual enlightenment and are some of the most calm individuals found in either community. Elven-raised Elf/Orcs tend towards neutrality or goodness, while Orc-raised Gothin, while still favoring druidic neutrality, have tendencies of evil or anarchy. Lands: Gothin have no lands of their own. Instead they share the lands with those who raised them. Religion: Gothin pay homage to the pantheon of the race that raised them, and particularly to any deity who has nature in their portfolio. Language: Gothin learn the language of their homeland, and common. Names: Gothin take on names appropriate to their homeland, though commonly, these names are those tied with themes of revenge, lamentation, and wrath.. • Medium: As Medium creatures, Gothin have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Gothin base land speed is 30 feet. • +2 Str, -2 Con. Gothin inherited some of their orcish strength, but almost paradoxily, are just as frail as their elven ancestors. • Low-Light Vision: Gothin can see twice as far as a human can in starlight, moonlight, torchlight and other conditions of poor illumination • Gruumsh Eye: Elf-orcs also have Darkvision, but only gain this vision in their Gruumsh eye, and thus in lighting conditions of Gloom or darker, they effectively lose depth perception and suffer a –2 penalty on all ranged attacks. • Elf/Orcs are counted as two levels higher casting any divination spells or spell-like abilities. This stacks with any feats or class features the Gothin would otherwise gain. When casting divination spells, their Gruumsh eye glows, giving them a –5 to any hide checks while it glows. • Weapon Proficiency: Gothin are automatically proficient with Scimitars and Falchions. Druidic martial traditions have made their impressions on all Gothin, whether they become druids or not. • +2 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks. Should they come within 5 ft of a secret door they may automatically make a Search check to see it. • Mixed Blood: For all effects related to race, a Gothin is considered both an orc and an elf. Gothin, for example, are just as vulnerable to special effects that affect elves and orcs as their ancestors are, and they can use magic items that are only usable by orcs and elves. • Automatic Languages: Common, and Orc or Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Orc, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, • Favored Class: Druid. When determining whether a multiclass Gothin takes an experience point penalty, his druid class does not count. Age Categories: Starting age: 16years/ Middle Aged: 37 years/ Old: 56 years/Venerable: 75 years/Max: +3d10. Height: 4’8 + 2d10(males) +1d10 (females) Weight: 120lbs. x2d6 (males and females)
Ogrebear 04-11-06, 04:20 AM	Now this is VERY interesting. I like the back story and the intelligent twist you put on Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh. Your explainations for this 'should not happen' race works well. The stats seem fine and not overbias towards Druid. That divination ability seems ok but why +2 levels higher? Shame they didn't inherit more Elvish lifespans, still they last longer than Orcs and their impact on the Orcish tribes could be profound. What would happen if a Gothin mated with a Half Orc or a Human? Great post Wharin!
Wharin 04-11-06, 08:13 AM	Thanks for the comments. Lemme see if i cannot answer these questions: I got the idea of adding +2 for divination from a domain. While most other domains add only +1 to spells of he corresponding descriptor, divination spells are particularly not very offensive, or even defensive, so to make taking the domain effective at all, +1 simply wasn't going to cut it. So I figured i'd do the same for the Gothin. I based the age of Gothin off of Half-Elves. I figured if traditional half elves only live so long, I couldn't imagine a elf/orc, who's other parentage is even shorter than humans, living any longer. And as you said, their extended lifespan in an orcish community would still have a heavy impact. And as to if you were enter a third race, such as a human, into the mix, I imagine the result would be either a half orc, a half elf, another Gothin, or Mongrel folk. Could really go any of those ways. Now that i got a theme going, I am thinking of adding Dwarf/Orc (so far my working title is "The Lamented"), Dwarf/Human, and "Hwarflings", and "Gnomlings" to my repetiore. Of course, this will be a while, and will let it come as naturally as i can.
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 04-12-06, 05:31 PM	I love these..except for the eye..i just..dunno...It seem weird... The "Gruumsh Eye" is the problem whit it!!!! I dont like it, yet it open some Rp area... I give it a 70%
Wharin 04-12-06, 06:47 PM	Yeah, I figured the eye thing would be a like it/hate it kinda thing. I personally feel it fits the story line perfectly, and adds an ability that's unique to itself. There are other ways to do this, but this is the one that came to me first, and the loudest.
Ogrebear 04-20-06, 06:45 AM	Oddly enough one of my favorite artists have just updated his gallery with some pics of a possible Elf-Orc racial mixing. Does Mr Andersson's vision sorta match what you intended: cross breed (http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/a/n/andersson/crossbreeding_couples.jpg.html)
Kirtanus_Albacron 06-13-06, 07:21 PM	Argggr.....You took my idea! And I already had the stats for them.
Wharin 06-14-06, 11:59 AM	Well... nothing is stopping you from making your own version. My version is not exactly everyone's cup o' tea, and it definately takes some liberties with the creation. So don't let my thread stop you. :tiphat:
DHaager 06-14-06, 12:05 PM	I have an observation/question: You say that 'Gothin' is elven for enemy child. I can understand why the elves would name this new race such. My question is, would the orcs also call this new race 'Gothin'? My reasoning being this; Do the orcs know what 'Gothin' means? If so, would they want to call these new children, which they seem to revere, by a name which implies 'enemy' and possibly 'hatred'? I would think that the orcs would choose a different name to use for these new special children. Something more in line with the orc's favoring of them for their special powers and revenge possiblities would seem appropriate to me. I am by no means trying to come up with an official name for these 'Orc Gothin' but for the sake of my post I will use the word 'Shapag', which I got from this website (http://www.angelfire.com/ia/orcishnations/englishorcish4.html) which I found after a quick search. Shapag, according to the website, is the Black Speech word for Revenge. Someone appropriate, I thought. Black Speech, of course, being the language of the orcs in the LOTR series. Now, if Gothin is the name which has come to be accepted by the world at large, fair enough. I could see the elves, after the bad news was leaked, pushing this name and its meaning on the other races to help in the PR department. But, would a Shapag, raised in an orc tribe, who has always been referred to as such; A) know about the word 'Gothin' and its meaning, and B) associate him/herself with the word 'Gothin.' If I were to play a Shapag who was raised in an Orc tribe and was later referred to as a 'Gothin' I might; A) take offense and blast/smash the offending person, or B) look at him/her like I don't know what the heck they are talking about, all depending on how I was or was not exposed to the word Gothin in my younger years. This has turned into a longer post than I intended and I am no way bashing your ideas. This question popped into my head as I was going out for lunch today and I wanted to voice my opinion and see what you thought about it.
Ioreck 06-14-06, 02:24 PM	definately cool. the eye does throw me off, but it adds a ton of flavor, so its good. two thumbs up for the unique race.
Wharin 06-14-06, 03:42 PM	I have an observation/question: You say that 'Gothin' is elven for enemy child. I can understand why the elves would name this new race such. My question is, would the orcs also call this new race 'Gothin'? My reasoning being this; Do the orcs know what 'Gothin' means? If so, would they want to call these new children, which they seem to revere, by a name which implies 'enemy' and possibly 'hatred'? I would think that the orcs would choose a different name to use for these new special children. Something more in line with the orc's favoring of them for their special powers and revenge possiblities would seem appropriate to me. I am by no means trying to come up with an official name for these 'Orc Gothin' but for the sake of my post I will use the word 'Shapag', which I got from this website (http://www.angelfire.com/ia/orcishnations/englishorcish4.html) which I found after a quick search. Shapag, according to the website, is the Black Speech word for Revenge. Someone appropriate, I thought. Black Speech, of course, being the language of the orcs in the LOTR series. Now, if Gothin is the name which has come to be accepted by the world at large, fair enough. I could see the elves, after the bad news was leaked, pushing this name and its meaning on the other races to help in the PR department. But, would a Shapag, raised in an orc tribe, who has always been referred to as such; A) know about the word 'Gothin' and its meaning, and B) associate him/herself with the word 'Gothin.' If I were to play a Shapag who was raised in an Orc tribe and was later referred to as a 'Gothin' I might; A) take offense and blast/smash the offending person, or B) look at him/her like I don't know what the heck they are talking about, all depending on how I was or was not exposed to the word Gothin in my younger years. This has turned into a longer post than I intended and I am no way bashing your ideas. This question popped into my head as I was going out for lunch today and I wanted to voice my opinion and see what you thought about it. Yeah, you pretty much answered your own question. Absolutely, the Orcs would most definately have their own name for Gothin, and it would probably be something like, "Seer", "Eye", "Revenge" or even "Da smart 'un", all of which are translated into Orc. That said unlike Elves, Orcs are really not on speaking terms with the rest of the civilized world, and the races they *are* on speaking terms with, are also not really on speaking terms with the rest of the civilized world. So yeah, "Gothin" is the named pushed for by the elves to the rest of the humanoid community and those few that see a Gothin, will probably refer to it as such. So just as every race has their nicknames, pejoritives, and descripters (after all, do you think Halflings call themselves such), Gothin is the official stamped title, and given their physical description of being really pale and lithe, Gothin seems rather appropos.
Golem011 06-14-06, 03:44 PM	Is cool! Gotta love half elf/orcs (got 'em in me own campaign, although there are different reasons and different mechanics)! Love the eye... it rocks.
Malancthon 06-14-06, 04:15 PM	So, other than the half darkvision, does the eye do anything else? The fluff mentions something of a sage-like power. Does that represent just their druidic teachings, using the eye as a metaphor for it, or is there something else to their eye? And does silver eyes do anything? Or just more flavour? I like the idea of having one silver eye. I especially like the illustration- the developed arms coupled with almost anime-esque gauntness perfectly translates into +2 Str, -2 Con. I might have to build a race with a similier style.
Wharin 06-14-06, 04:28 PM	So, other than the half darkvision, does the eye do anything else? The fluff mentions something of a sage-like power. Does that represent just their druidic teachings, using the eye as a metaphor for it, or is there something else to their eye? And does silver eyes do anything? Or just more flavour? I like the idea of having one silver eye. I especially like the illustration- the developed arms coupled with almost anime-esque gauntness perfectly translates into +2 Str, -2 Con. I might have to build a race with a similier style. To answer your question about the eye's power: •Elf/Orcs are counted as two levels higher casting any divination spells or spell-like abilities. This stacks with any feats or class features the Gothin would otherwise gain. When casting divination spells, their Gruumsh eye glows, giving them a –5 to any hide checks while it glows. I suppose I could put in that should the Gruumsh eye ever be plucked out or otherwise rendered ineffective that the bonus is lost. But I am not sure how much that is needed. But yes, its also serves as a metaphor for what Correllon did to Gruumsh in the before-time time. The silver iris phenomena is purely fluff, is is meant an an option for PC's to take as... well... PC's are always "freaks" and are usually meant for great things. I suppose I could even make a background feat called "The Silver Eye" meant for Gothins alone, where the taker of the feat gains some bonus of some type... I'll have to think about that, and will listen to any suggestions. Thanks for the comments!
Malancthon 06-14-06, 07:06 PM	I missed that... I think I thought that was the Elf/Orc Blood racial ability. Hmm, I guess what really makes it an 'enh' ability is that it's only feasible for a couple of classes... what about a Fighter Gothin? Or a Rogue Gothin? It does nothing for them. Maybe making the Black Eye and the Silver Eye into racial feats, as you suggested, and the Black Eye would become the +2 caster level for Divination as you intended. No clue as to what the Silver Eye might do.
Drachasor 06-14-06, 07:37 PM	Hmm, I could see the Orcs calling them Gothins as well. Afterall, it is the *ELVISH* word for "enemy child," and hence a constant reminder that the Elves consider Gothins enemies -- or so it would be spun by the Orcs. Certainly they'd use it to fuel hatred for the Elves in Gothin (and other Orcs) at the very least. -Drachasor
SokenzanMarauder 06-14-06, 08:00 PM	• Mixed Blood: For all effects related to race, a Gothin is considered both an orc and an elf. Gothin, for example, are just as vulnerable to special effects that affect elves and elves as their ancestors are, and they can use magic items that are only usable by dwarves and elves. Just an observation, but shouldn't they be able to use items usable only by orcs and elves? Where do dwarves come into the picture from? Maybe you were thinking of a dwarf/elf hybrid? ;) -Gene
The Badger 06-14-06, 08:25 PM	Actually I believe that he already has made a dwarf/elf hybrid.
Wharin 06-14-06, 08:34 PM	whoops... typo... yeah this is a copy/paste error from the gloristili... I'll get right on it!
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 08-12-06, 10:07 AM	Hey...just wondering..why the hell the Orc-Elf hybrid was never made into a official D&D?
Wharin 08-12-06, 10:35 AM	Well, I suspect that with the original intent of the races, they were never supposed to be possible. Though I am not the first to make an elf/orc hybrid, not many others have included an explained why they are possible, despite the fact that they never have been before.
AMGriffin 08-14-06, 11:14 AM	Yeah I created an elf/orc hybrid once, its still floating around on the board somehwere. It was a bit different then yours but it had some similarities. My 1 problem with it: Why the -2 to Constiution? A half-elf that is half human has no penalty to constitution, and I'd think orcs were tougher then humans... Ooh, here's my elf/orc Elorcs Elves and Orcs have always been the deadliest of enemies and have waged war on and off for as long as the two have been around. Both races are known to be quite genetically compatible with human beings and can produce fertile offspring with them. This has lead to the question: If elves and orcs can both reproduce with humans...could they unite to form a child? The answer (to the dismay of most elves) is a yes. Elorcs have it tougher then any other hybrid in the world, and rarely (if ever) find their way amongst either parent race and often must turn to the life of a vagabond. Personality: Elorc are shy and unassertive, more then likely the result of their life more then genetics however. The elven blood tempers the furious orcish rage they feel burning within them whilst at the same time the gruff and brutish nature of orcs prevents them from the displaying the grace found in elves and half-evles. So as a whole, they inherit the sullen nature of orcs and the aloof behavior of elves. Physical Description: A rumor amongst elves is elorcs are born hideously deformed and far uglier then orcs, this is certainly not the case. Elorcs resemble smaller, fairer half-human orcs. They typically have pale green skin, and males will very rarely have small tusks, though more often then not they don't. They typically are similar to a human in size (perhaps a bit taller) and build. The elven blood they carry distinctly shows up in their eyes, as they take on the large almond shape of an elf's and are often the same coloration. Their hair is black like an orc's, but much finer like an elf's would be. Relations: Elf/orc unions are so rare and unheard of that most races have no idea how to react to them. Humans will be rather perplexed by it, but will typically pay little attention to such a creature. Dwarves oddly enough, are quite accepting of and pity elorcs, viewing their birth as the result of the savagry of orcs and the carless nature of elves. Half-elves typically get along quite well with elorcs, both being victim to bias from elves. Half-orcs however react in varying ways, a good or neutral inclined half-orc may feel great pity for elorcs and the two races can form extremely tight bonds. Yet in an orcish society evil and some neutral aligned half-orcs may see the elorc as a golden oppurtunity to endear themselves to the orcs by being as cruel to the elorc as possible, for the half-orc realizes that this creature is the only being the orcs see as more pathetic then he. Elves view them as abominations and typically kill them at birth or banish them, orcs are a bit more accepting (oddly enough). Elorcs have natural agility which they put to use for scouting or stealth missions, but still are viewed as pathetic and hopelessly weak. Alignment: The iherent nature of elorcs is for them to be inclined towards chaotic. Good and evil are both possible, but elorcs tend towards neutrality, as they hold no ties to either side of the moral spectrum. Lands: Elorcs have no land of their own, and oddly enough rarely live with elves or orcs. Most often they are found amongst humans. Religion: Elorcs are typically avoidant of religious matters and rarely ever turn to their elven or orcish deities who view them as either pathetic weaklings or vile abominations of nature. Most often they find an entirely unique god to worship... but religiousity is rare amongst them/ Language: Elorcs know the language of either elves or orcs and common. Names: Elorcs typically are given names to reflect their status in society. Elven names signify them as monsters, orcish names signify their weakness. Most often they will choose an entirely new name. Traits • Medium: As Medium creatures, Elorcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Elorc base land speed is 30 feet. • +2 Dex, -2 Wis. Elorcs are agile and quick of hand, but scattered brained and unaware. • Darkvision out to 90 feet. Elorcs have darkvision like their orc parent, but the sharp eyesight of their elven half gives them better vision in the dark • +2 to all listen, search, and spot checks. An elorc who merely passes within five feet of a hidden door is entitled to a search check as if he/she were actively searching. • Immunity to sleep spells, and a +2 bonus on saves against mind effecting spells • elf/orc blood. Elorcs are able to use all the magical items elves and orcs can, but are also weak against spells that target elves and orcs • Automatic Languages: Common, and Orc or Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Orc, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, • Favored Class: Rogue. Elorcs are known for making use of the agility of their elven half and often do stealth missions when living under orcs or are forced to a shady lifestyle amongst elves.
Wharin 08-14-06, 11:46 AM	Well this is my thought processes/reasonings/excuses for having the Con penalty: 1) as far as mechanics go, they needed to be balanced. +4 str from the orc side HAD to make an impression on the racial ability scores in some way or the other. But i had to balance it out. -2 dex made no sense what soever, and -2 to INT and CHA is old hat with traditional half orcs. -4 cha is pretty cheesy as CHA (and to a lesser extent INT and WIS) is pretty much a dump stat, and not even Orcs are that uncharismatic (or stupid or unwise). So i had to go with something 2) Though -2 Wis -2 Cha would work, Having that -2 Wis on a race that relies on instinct and personal reflection and would prove to be the Orcish spiritual advisors, it didn't taste good in my mouth. That and it still looked too much like a traditional Half-Orc. Those 2 reason really only let us with one outlet and that was -2 Con. And since -2 Con is what elves had (despite the fact that tradition half-elves dont have -2 Con) there is a certain amount of appropriate flavour to it. For more fluff, pro reasons for the -2 Con, here's my ratinale: 3) Seeing how it was Gruumsh, not the smartest deity in the cosmology,that did the tampering with the bloodline, it would stand to reason that he would screw up a bit, thus making these bastard children less hardy. 4) Either through the violent lifestyle of an orcish mother or the undersized womb of the elven mother, while the Gothin is in the womb, it would stand to reason that there would be some physical complications with the child. And finally, more on a stylistic note 5) While not mechanically awesome (surely having a bruiser type character with a penalty to Con isnt a meleeist's best friend), I find having +2 STR with a -2 Con intriguing, if only because it such a paradox. I like the idea of a star that burns twice as bright living half as long.
Caliborn 08-14-06, 12:03 PM	Well this is very interesting and well written, but unfortunately I would never implement it; too much of a crime against the cosmos IMO. Good job.
RPGfan 08-26-06, 03:47 AM	Well this is very interesting and well written, but unfortunately I would never implement it; too much of a crime against the cosmos IMO. Good job. I enjoy many crimes against the cosmos, thank you very much.:noway:
Wharin 08-31-06, 07:38 PM	Bumping for cleaning up the image. Still not awesome, but better than before
Ogrebear 09-01-06, 08:19 AM	Bumping for cleaning up the image. Still not awesome, but better than before The pic is definatly better than before. Still like these guys, still trying to find a spot in my world for them.
Solian 09-01-06, 10:01 AM	I really quite like them, and the eye is.....intiguing to say the least. About the silver eye, maybe it gives them a minor spell-like ability? something like Gnomes, maybe a power to see the invisable 1/day or something like being able to see into the ethrael plane or something? Just a suggestion.
Donald_Cannith 09-01-06, 12:44 PM	Yeah I created an elf/orc hybrid once, its still floating around on the board somehwere. It was a bit different then yours but it had some similarities. My 1 problem with it: Why the -2 to Constiution? A half-elf that is half human has no penalty to constitution, and I'd think orcs were tougher then humans... Ooh, here's my elf/orc Elorcs Elves and Orcs have always been the deadliest of enemies and have waged war on and off for as long as the two have been around. Both races are known to be quite genetically compatible with human beings and can produce fertile offspring with them. This has lead to the question: If elves and orcs can both reproduce with humans...could they unite to form a child? The answer (to the dismay of most elves) is a yes. Elorcs have it tougher then any other hybrid in the world, and rarely (if ever) find their way amongst either parent race and often must turn to the life of a vagabond. Personality: Elorc are shy and unassertive, more then likely the result of their life more then genetics however. The elven blood tempers the furious orcish rage they feel burning within them whilst at the same time the gruff and brutish nature of orcs prevents them from the displaying the grace found in elves and half-evles. So as a whole, they inherit the sullen nature of orcs and the aloof behavior of elves. Physical Description: A rumor amongst elves is elorcs are born hideously deformed and far uglier then orcs, this is certainly not the case. Elorcs resemble smaller, fairer half-human orcs. They typically have pale green skin, and males will very rarely have small tusks, though more often then not they don't. They typically are similar to a human in size (perhaps a bit taller) and build. The elven blood they carry distinctly shows up in their eyes, as they take on the large almond shape of an elf's and are often the same coloration. Their hair is black like an orc's, but much finer like an elf's would be. Relations: Elf/orc unions are so rare and unheard of that most races have no idea how to react to them. Humans will be rather perplexed by it, but will typically pay little attention to such a creature. Dwarves oddly enough, are quite accepting of and pity elorcs, viewing their birth as the result of the savagry of orcs and the carless nature of elves. Half-elves typically get along quite well with elorcs, both being victim to bias from elves. Half-orcs however react in varying ways, a good or neutral inclined half-orc may feel great pity for elorcs and the two races can form extremely tight bonds. Yet in an orcish society evil and some neutral aligned half-orcs may see the elorc as a golden oppurtunity to endear themselves to the orcs by being as cruel to the elorc as possible, for the half-orc realizes that this creature is the only being the orcs see as more pathetic then he. Elves view them as abominations and typically kill them at birth or banish them, orcs are a bit more accepting (oddly enough). Elorcs have natural agility which they put to use for scouting or stealth missions, but still are viewed as pathetic and hopelessly weak. Alignment: The iherent nature of elorcs is for them to be inclined towards chaotic. Good and evil are both possible, but elorcs tend towards neutrality, as they hold no ties to either side of the moral spectrum. Lands: Elorcs have no land of their own, and oddly enough rarely live with elves or orcs. Most often they are found amongst humans. Religion: Elorcs are typically avoidant of religious matters and rarely ever turn to their elven or orcish deities who view them as either pathetic weaklings or vile abominations of nature. Most often they find an entirely unique god to worship... but religiousity is rare amongst them/ Language: Elorcs know the language of either elves or orcs and common. Names: Elorcs typically are given names to reflect their status in society. Elven names signify them as monsters, orcish names signify their weakness. Most often they will choose an entirely new name. Traits • Medium: As Medium creatures, Elorcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Elorc base land speed is 30 feet. • +2 Dex, -2 Wis. Elorcs are agile and quick of hand, but scattered brained and unaware. • Darkvision out to 90 feet. Elorcs have darkvision like their orc parent, but the sharp eyesight of their elven half gives them better vision in the dark • +2 to all listen, search, and spot checks. An elorc who merely passes within five feet of a hidden door is entitled to a search check as if he/she were actively searching. • Immunity to sleep spells, and a +2 bonus on saves against mind effecting spells • elf/orc blood. Elorcs are able to use all the magical items elves and orcs can, but are also weak against spells that target elves and orcs • Automatic Languages: Common, and Orc or Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Orc, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, • Favored Class: Rogue. Elorcs are known for making use of the agility of their elven half and often do stealth missions when living under orcs or are forced to a shady lifestyle amongst elves. I do like your idea...to a point i think the abilities are a bit off.. the half-elf doesnt get any of those benefits and elves and humans are abit closer on the evolutionary scale IMO. instead of a immunity to sleep and + 2 against mind afecting how about just a + 2 against sleep and mind affecting. The secret door thing once again appears to be stepping o nthe half-elves toes becus the half-elves get no such benefits. I personally think that the stenrgth could reasonably be balanced at +0 with the orcs+4 and the elves -2 balancing nicely. however isee no reason for the wisdom to be - 2 it appears tobe the ype of sreature that would have -2 to charisma while retaining the dex bonus i could see. Ikno charisma is a dump stat for most but its the one that makes the most logistical sense. also lowereing alot of your + 2 bonuses(boni?) to + 1 fits better with the existing half races....just my 2 cp and by no means am i slammingyou
AMGriffin 09-01-06, 01:11 PM	Well you gotta consider that different traits could be inherited by the half-elf/orc versus the human and the half-elf, besides the half-elf in the PHB kinda sucks if you ask me(so I made a fix on that). Plus a wisdom penalty seems for more akin to the rogue-like characters I imagined them as. The +2 bonuses to listen and spot are there to balance out the penalty on wisdom. The bonus on search checks is partly cultural, elorcs are going to be very concise on finding things, as they are rogues and because of their "freakish" status, finding things such as food is going to be an everyday necessity. As for wisdom vs charisma... I gave them a wisdom penalty for a few reasons. 1.) The charisma penalty was ommited not only because it is too akin to half-orcs (Half-orcs have no intelligence penalty in my game) and even though they are typically aloof and distant, elorcs still can possess powerful and persuasive personalities. Perhaps developed to worm their way outta trouble in orc camps or gain contacts and allies in the bowels of elven society. 2.) The wisdom penalty seems more akin to a rogue build and fits them if you ask me. First off they are half of two VERY different races and would have immensely conflicting inner natures which could lead to much confusion on the elorc's part, and elorcs are also driven by a need to prove themselves and find acceptance somwhwere. This may blind them to the oblivious or cloud their better judgement. 3.) Half-orcs should be the one with higher wisdom if you ask me. They're far more concise and focused on what they want (and often have just said "screw you" to both humans and orcs) plus from a gaming standpoint, I always picture half-orcs as being the tribal clerics or shamans of orc society. Moving on... My primary problem with lots of the fixes you suggested are they make the elorc totally suck. Just giving half-breeds half of everything their parent races have can leave them very plain and boring (especially in the case of those who are half human, but this is an easy fix...just add an extra feat or those bonus skill points.)
SunWukong 09-01-06, 06:33 PM	The male one looks alot like my friend... minus the facial hair and the long hairstyle. He's also rather pale. Maybe I should ask him about his real parents...
Wharin 09-09-06, 11:52 AM	Looking more carefully at AMGriffins comments, I do find it intriguing that he questioned my giving Gothin the -2 Con when traditional half orcs don't have it, when he then gave the +2 Dex and -2 Wis when the traditional half orcs and half elves have neither, as well as seemingly ignoring the much larger bonus to STR that orcs give in favor the smaller DEX bonus that elves give. If we are talking about hybrid races and giving +2 Dex, -2 Wis, you'd think that a elf/gnome hybrid. While neither race gives -2 Wis, both races are more flighty (be it the absent minded professor gnomes, or the simply flighty and freespirited elves) than any of the other core races... ... Hmmm... Gnelves... Gimme a few months and they'll exist
periscope 11-26-06, 09:50 PM	Nice. the blending of the bloods will soon culminate in the orcs revene Muwahahahahahahahaha:evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :plotting: :plotting: :plotting: "ahem" cough, cough" I mean, nice race. :) Question though, if put into a game with psionics, would it be a stretch to allow them to apply their bonuses to clairsentience powers?
Wharin 11-26-06, 10:26 PM	I don't see why not. If you use the transparency rule for your campaign, psionics and magic are virtually the same. It would only make sense if you allowed the bonus for both.
AMGriffin 11-26-06, 10:33 PM	Looking more carefully at AMGriffins comments, I do find it intriguing that he questioned my giving Gothin the -2 Con when traditional half orcs don't have it, when he then gave the +2 Dex and -2 Wis when the traditional half orcs and half elves have neither, as well as seemingly ignoring the much larger bonus to STR that orcs give in favor the smaller DEX bonus that elves give. If we are talking about hybrid races and giving +2 Dex, -2 Wis, you'd think that a elf/gnome hybrid. While neither race gives -2 Wis, both races are more flighty (be it the absent minded professor gnomes, or the simply flighty and freespirited elves) than any of the other core races... ... Hmmm... Gnelves... Gimme a few months and they'll exist Allow me to defend my reasons for making the elf/orc hyrbid the way I did. As I did a horrendous job of explaining it. The no strength bonus thing comes from my estimation that an elf/orc hybrid would probably be about the same size (perhaps a bit more muscular then) as a human being. Overall they may be a bit stronger, but surely not as strong as a half-orc of human stock and not strong enough to gain a strength penalty. Instead, they'd probably have slender bodies, but lean tight muscles as a result of mixing elf and orcish structures. So I figured that being leanly toned and muscular would make them athletic and quick... which would translate to a dexterity bonus. The wisdom penalty can be explained by the general lifestyle of the elf/orc. First off, think about the conflicting natures of them. In terms of behavior, elves and orcs are quite different (sure they are both chaotic, but elves are serene and whimsy. Orcs are...well, the opposite of serene and whimsy). Their conflicting personality traits and instincts are going to leave them mentally weary. Not only that, but how do you think it's going to effect you psychologically when you're told every single day you are a complete freak and vile monstrousity? Boom, wisdom penalty. That's the way I saw them as anyway...looking back I'd consider adding a massive penalty to diplomacy/gather info checks with orcs and elves.
SaintedBerzerker 11-27-06, 02:00 PM	I had somthing in my homebrew kinda like this though most definetly NOT for PC's. The basic backstory is that Long, long ago before the birth of the other races the elves were around and were Way more Badda$$ than thet are now. Corellon Lathierion had his little cabal of minor dieties around one of whom was the God of The Wild Hunt: Grummush. Now this violent deity started gaining more followers and liked the growing power that this brought him. So Grummush decides to plant a seed of his own violent, evil nature in all of the elven race. (as there were only a few hundred at the time a rather easy task) So the elves go crazy and start the first war. Breaking the nation into small camps and nearly decimating the entire population. Some of the oldest and most powerfull elves figure out what is going on and cast a huge riual to remove this part of themselves and succede, to much. They remove alot of there own wild nature and split the race in half. Thus the modern elves and orcs. Now the campaign is set about 20,000 years later and some damn Gnome Wizard cooks up a fertility spell that garonties conception so he can have all the little Gomlets he wants. What the Little bugger dosnt count on is that the spell works across species lines. Thus when an elf and an orc do the nasty a Primordial Elf is born. They are 12 hit die Outsiders Str 14 Dex 26 Con 14 Int 22 Wis 18 Cha 18 Elven racial Advantages Plus + 6 insight bonus to AC(= to Int bonus) Casts spells as 12th Level Wiz CR 16 ECL ? prolly epic
Ogrebear 12-09-06, 09:28 AM	They were never supposed to have happened. The elven gods made sure of it. Elf and Orc blood were simply not supposed to mix. Not like this. Yet, happened they have. Though the exact details have been hidden from most, a number of good educated guesses, combined with information gleaned from high-ranking Orc Spiritualists, paint what’s believed to be the most plausible of answers. I am playing around with a new world and I wrote in some honourable Orcs and more primitive type Elves who each hold the side of a mountain range and have done for centuries with a peace deal holding. Suddenly Humans have turned up and upset the apple cart - attacking both Orc and Elf over the mineral rich mountains. The Orcs and Elves have found themselves on the same side... Its been rocky but they are co-operating... and then come the Gothin... unsure and confused the Elders have asked the two Gods who have given no straight answer on the issue, thus for now the Gothin are being allowed to live and prosper since no one wants to potentially annoy a deity, plus the half breeds are a useful 'sign' that the military Alliance is blessed and that the Humans defeat will come... Thanks again for the idea Wharin!
Wharin 12-09-06, 10:29 AM	:tiphat:
Kolbane_Ferretmaster 04-13-07, 02:08 AM	Bump, because this is, frankly, an awesome race.
vegetalss4 05-04-07, 04:14 PM	i truly like this, but i think the eye need a bit change dont know what will think about it. wharin would you plaese make a orc drow variant?
Wharin 05-04-07, 05:22 PM	I suppose I could try. I'll post it up as soon as I can think of a good story for it.
vegetalss4 05-05-07, 04:30 AM	i has an idea for the story, use the same but say that with some of the first it whas loth that helped grumsh, thus the half drow but that where not a good revenge for grumsh, so he made an other try and got the gothin. what do you think about that wharin?
AMGriffin 05-05-07, 02:45 PM	I don't think that would work, really. Drow elves are already pretty far removed from Correllon and other elves, so most elves could just as soon care less what kind of relations the drow have with the orcs. I really think Drow/Orc hybrids could be another way that Lolth rebelled against Correlon, ya know...just a big "F you" to the other elven deities by allowing drow and orcs to reproduce. Mechanically this is what I got... Racial traits *+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma -2 Wisdom. *Medium: As medium-sized creatures, Drow Savreree have no penalties or bonuses due to their size. *Drow Savreree base land speed is 30 feet. *Darkvision out to 90 feet. *+2 racial bonus on climb, jump, listen, and spot checks. *+4 racial bonus on saves against sleep spells. In addition to this, Drow Savreree only require six (not eight) hours of sleep to feel rested. *+1 racialbonus on all will saves against spells and spell-like abilities *Spell resistance 5+character level *SLA: Darkness 1/day *Mixed blood: For all intents and purposes, Drow Savreree count as both orcs and Drow. *Automatic languages: Common, Undercommon or Orc Bonus languages: Elven, Orc, Goblin, Gnoll, Dwarven, Draconic, Abyssal, Undercommon *Favored class: Rogue. *LA: +1
Thief_of_Hope 05-06-07, 01:56 PM	I really like this race. The gothin have what may be one of the most creative backstories I've seen for a race. I really like the fact that both the flavor and the execution of the race have features you don't usually see. I'm particularly tickled by the "eye of Gruumsh", with its divination-boosting (and the fact that it glows when being used for divination). I also liked how you worked it so that having favored class druid made sense for upbringing with either race. I like it. Very nice job.
jradd777 10-22-07, 03:54 AM	I didn't read through everything (it's late, I need sleep) but overall, I like a lot of the ideas, storyline, etc. Clicked on a link to this from another thread because I have tried my hand at this (a friend of mine and I both wanted to see this and he hadn't seen a thread of it that he REALLY liked, I hadn't looked). I simply called them "The Forsaken" (this is just the basics, mostly) • +2 Strength, -2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma: The mixture of Elves and Orcs results in a stronger being who is somewhat less hardy and less intuitive but destined to lead. • Medium: As medium creatures, “Forsaken” have no bonuses or penalties due to size. • “Forsaken” base land speed is 30 feet. • Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects. • Darkvision: “Forsaken” can see 30 feet in darkness and retain the ability to distinguish color and detail. • +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks in darkness and low-light but not in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. “Forsaken” have lost the ability to notice secret door simply by passing near them. • Light Sensitivity (Ex): “Forsaken” suffer a -1 penalty on attack rolls in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell due to naturally dilated pupils. • Mixed Blood: Choose at first level whether “Forsaken” is considered Orc-blooded or Elven-blooded for the purposes of special abilities and effects. The decision cannot be changed at any later point. • Automatic Language: Common and either Elven, Orc, or Undercommon, depending on region where they lived Bonus Languages: Elven, Orc, Draconic, Gnoll, Goblin, Sylvan, and Abyssal I came up with the same +2 Str (mostly because full Orcs have such a HUGE bonus to Strength it really doesn't make sense to me to not give a half-orc something), -2 Con (because in general this kind of mix of such different races normally results in offspring with little resistance to the natural diseases of the parent races, in real world), -2 Wis (I just see them as a less intuitive race on the whole, my friend gave them a bonus because he said that they would be more introspective because of their disconnect with either parents race), and a +2 to Cha (because even though they wouldn't necessarily be attractive, well-liked, a type of Orc-like race called Orog gets a big Cha bonus based on their leadership tendencies, and I flavored my version to strive to lead and in that way overcome the society that pushed them down growing up). I tried to give mine the mid-way-ish between Elves and Orcs for life span and played with different things, like ideas of aging quickly and then kind of plateauing into a slow elderly life, etc. Also, the strange mixture of heritage is what led me to think that their eyes would be strangely affected, granting them a weird ability to detect color in the dark (however I really like your Gruumsh eye idea). Of course, this was a quick, not well thought out first draft, I had already planned to make changes, do you mind if I borrow the Gruumsh Eye concept for my Forsaken? Thanks in advance, let me know what you think of this first draft of mine...
RobbyPants 10-22-07, 03:53 PM	I really like the flavor on these, and I feel they're well in the scope of an LA +0 race. Although the +2 Str/-2 Con would make me less than thrilled to play them as a Druid. ;) It seems like they'd make better archers than anything else (i.e. favored class: Ranger).
jradd777 10-22-07, 06:46 PM	I really like the flavor on these, and I feel they're well in the scope of an LA +0 race. Although the +2 Str/-2 Con would make me less than thrilled to play them as a Druid. ;) It seems like they'd make better archers than anything else (i.e. favored class: Ranger). I hadn't put a definite favored class on mine yet. I was considering duskblade though, because the one race seems well fit for magic and the other for battle. His is based on flavor which is good, I think it's kinda cheap to do favored classes based on strengths and weaknesses and not their backgrounds/society (although sometimes the strengths/weakness influence society etc.).
RobbyPants 10-23-07, 12:30 PM	I hadn't put a definite favored class on mine yet. I was considering duskblade though, because the one race seems well fit for magic and the other for battle. His is based on flavor which is good, I think it's kinda cheap to do favored classes based on strengths and weaknesses and not their backgrounds/society (although sometimes the strengths/weakness influence society etc.). Yes and no. The problem with duskblade is that d8 hit dice and a Con penalty aren't conducive to melee combat. I see where you're coming from on basing favored class on mechanics, but it still has some importance. The favored class of a race doesn't have to be something they're spectacular at, but it stands to reason that they shouldn't have a favored class that they're bad at. It's kind of the whole survival of the fittest idea in that, if they're all such bad duskblades, how did the race survive? Who would want to focus on something they're bad at? The Str bonus and Con penalty is kind of an odd combination. Playing to the strengths of that combination while masking the weaknesses is tough. The only viable role I can see is an archer-type, who can take advantage of strength. Again, I'm not saying that all members of the race need to be archers, but that it doesn't make sense that they'd focus on a fairly squishy melee class.
jradd777 10-23-07, 12:37 PM	Yes and no. The problem with duskblade is that d8 hit dice and a Con penalty aren't conducive to melee combat. I see where you're coming from on basing favored class on mechanics, but it still has some importance. The favored class of a race doesn't have to be something they're spectacular at, but it stands to reason that they shouldn't have a favored class that they're bad at. It's kind of the whole survival of the fittest idea in that, if they're all such bad duskblades, how did the race survive? Who would want to focus on something they're bad at? The Str bonus and Con penalty is kind of an odd combination. Playing to the strengths of that combination while masking the weaknesses is tough. The only viable role I can see is an archer-type, who can take advantage of strength. Again, I'm not saying that all members of the race need to be archers, but that it doesn't make sense that they'd focus on a fairly squishy melee class. Right, yeah, I can see all your points... They're all things I considered (although, probably not all as thoroughly as it seems you have based on your comment). I kinda wanted to play one out and see if the class itself helped washout any major failings in that area or something, like I said, it was never set in stone by any means... ha, it actually started out as a complete joke...
RobbyPants 10-23-07, 12:59 PM	Right, yeah, I can see all your points... They're all things I considered (although, probably not all as thoroughly as it seems you have based on your comment). Like I said, there's no reason you can't be a duskblade with a Con penalty. You'll just have to work that much harder to compensate. And the Str bonus is a nice feature. Sometimes flavor trumps mechanics. ;) I was just suggesting not using it as a favored class (i.e., most mebers of the race are that class). I kinda wanted to play one out and see if the class itself helped washout any major failings in that area or something, like I said, it was never set in stone by any means... ha, it actually started out as a complete joke... What part was the joke? The race itself or the favored class?
jradd777 10-23-07, 01:26 PM	Like I said, there's no reason you can't be a duskblade with a Con penalty. You'll just have to work that much harder to compensate. And the Str bonus is a nice feature. Sometimes flavor trumps mechanics. ;) I was just suggesting not using it as a favored class (i.e., most mebers of the race are that class). Yeah, I gotcha. In my idea for them, they're kinda rare anyway, so it wouldn't be weird if all of them were generally Duskblades, anyway. There probably is a better class, though, I'll find a good one. What part was the joke? The race itself or the favored class? The favored class, at the time my party group was of the opinion that Duskblades were a completely broken class. We've since realized it's not so bad.
RobbyPants 10-23-07, 02:51 PM	The favored class, at the time my party group was of the opinion that Duskblades were a completely broken class. We've since realized it's not so bad. That makes sense. From my understanding, Duskblades are solid damage dealers (to some, brokenly so), but their power tapers off around 9th level or so. You can often do better with PrC gish builds, but those builds often take until mid levels to start to work out. So, basically, it depends on the level of the campaign for whether or not Duskblades are all that powerful.