Grey Elf Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Grey Elf Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RobbyPants
06-26-07, 09:22 AM I have decided to change elves somewhat for the next campaign I'm running. The basic idea is that I don't think they should be as strong as humans, based on their stated frail nature. So, the first solution I had was to give high elves (the PHB standard) -2 Str and +2 Int. This makes them the same as grey elves. Likewise, I figured I'd apply the same modifiers to wood elves, changing their original +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int to +2 Dex, -2 Con, effectively making them like high elves. This way, wood elves are stronger than other elves, but not humans.

So far so good (IMO :P). Then I run into the problem with grey elves. At this point, high elves and grey elves are identical. I don't really want that. I also do not want to follow the pattern of adding an extra -2 Str, +2 Int. I in no way consider a race with -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +4 Int to be balanced. It's obvious what every player would do: play an arcane caster or skill monkey type, and never a fighter. So what do I do?

I don't want to change any ability mod to be greater than +2 or less than -2. I was thinking about a simple feature swap. My first idea is to drop the martial weapon proficiencies that elves get, and replace it with a 1/day use of Detect Magic, or possibly Prestidigitation. Supposedly, this is a balanced swap according to YabaTheWhat's feature point system (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683). He considers both traits to be worth 2 FP.

What do you think about that idea? Does anyone have any other suggestions? Any ideas how I can differentiate between the two races without making it a wizard-only race?
AAB
06-26-07, 10:17 AM you could just drop grey elves from your setting, since the default elves would fill their niche.
Majick
06-26-07, 10:19 AM ...right.

Well, why do you need a 'different grey elf'? why can't you use the same stats as high elves but simply have them ACT more regal, maybe have longer life-spans and live in high up mountain fortresses?

Not every race that is given a description needs a stat for it

Take dwarves for example, you almost always hear of 'strong muscular dwarves' but do they get a stat change in comparisson to humans? No. They don't. But everything i have ever read and seen always makes them sound like they could snap a human in two.

Elves as well, in almost all the Forgotten Realms, Dragon Lance and various other setting, invariably are just as tough and enduring as humans, and sometimes even dwarves and they actually DO have a stat that says they shouldn't be.

It's all about what your purposes are. First, do you NEED that many subraces?

If yes, have you thought about Grey Elves having more wisdom, or even charisma?

Think about it man
RobbyPants
06-26-07, 10:48 AM you could just drop grey elves from your setting, since the default elves would fill their niche.
I could I suppose, but at this point, I was planning on keeping them. I was hoping to accomplish a fairly subtle difference with the stats.

ell, why do you need a 'different grey elf'? why can't you use the same stats as high elves but simply have them ACT more regal, maybe have longer life-spans and live in high up mountain fortresses?

Not every race that is given a description needs a stat for it
That thought had occured to me. I guess I was just carrying on with the example from the DMG and MM, which had them statted out differently.

Take dwarves for example, you almost always hear of 'strong muscular dwarves' but do they get a stat change in comparisson to humans? No. They don't. But everything i have ever read and seen always makes them sound like they could snap a human in two.
Well, part of this might be because every dwarf you read about is an adventurer. Just the same as humans, every human fighter-type you read about seems like they could snap you in two. I'd think that your average dwarf would be no more muscular. That example pertains to specific dwarves, not all dwarves.

Elves as well, in almost all the Forgotten Realms, Dragon Lance and various other setting, invariably are just as tough and enduring as humans, and sometimes even dwarves and they actually DO have a stat that says they shouldn't be.
I'm not using those settings. These stats are for my own campaign, as stated in my OP. :)

It's all about what your purposes are. First, do you NEED that many subraces?
It's only three at this point. I didn't want to use every published WotC sub race, if that's what you mean.

If yes, have you thought about Grey Elves having more wisdom, or even charisma?
I'm assuming you mean instead of the Int bonus? I hadn't considered that. It could be an interesting idea. One side effect of giving them a Cha boost would be that you would effectively end up with wizard-elves and sorcerer-elves. But, maybe that's not a bad thing.
AAB
06-26-07, 10:56 AM i say give them a wis bonus if you absolutely have to have them. there are so very few races with a wis bonus as it is.
RobbyPants
06-26-07, 11:07 AM i say give them a wis bonus if you absolutely have to have them. there are so very few races with a wis bonus as it is.
Do you mean in place of the Int bonus, or offset by something else?

For a brief while, I'd considered adjusting all of their stats by +/- 2, but I'm leaning away from that now. I'd considered giving +2 Wis/-2 Cha on the grounds that they're haughty and hard to get along with, but they're still wise. I'd also considered switching it to -2 Wis/ +2 Cha picturing them as a little naive, but still, with a forceful personality. In the end, I didn't think either was a good idea...
AAB
06-26-07, 11:09 AM Do you mean in place of the Int bonus, or offset by something else?

For a brief while, I'd considered adjusting all of their stats by +/- 2, but I'm leaning away from that now. I'd considered giving +2 Wis/-2 Cha on the grounds that they're haughty and hard to get along with, but they're still wise. I'd also considered switching it to -2 Wis/ +2 Cha picturing them as a little naive, but still, with a forceful personality. In the end, I didn't think either was a good idea...

yeah, i'd replace the int bonus.
Niek
06-26-07, 11:10 AM The frailness of elves is not in their str, its in their CON penalty.
RobbyPants
06-26-07, 12:25 PM yeah, i'd replace the int bonus.
I was hoping that's what you'd meant.

The frailness of elves is not in their str, its in their CON penalty.
True, with PHB elves. Still, I've never liked the idea of an elven warrior lifting 300 pounds above their heads. I especially never liked the idea of wood elves being as strong as half orcs.

Is this only my opinion? Yes. But, as it stands, these are variations on the sub-races for use in my campaign. This is how I wanted them portrayed in my world. I'm not stating that I think these are "re-balanced" elves, or anything to that effect.
Wolf72
06-26-07, 12:30 PM tough call ...

other bonuses? to skills maybe? ... +2 spellcraft or Knowledge arcane?

or some other Ex or Su ability?

I like what you did with them all though,

what about wild elves? (nm, keep them as is ... +2 dex, -2 int)

or just go with fluff changes as already mentioned ... right, longer life span too
RobbyPants
06-26-07, 12:56 PM other bonuses? to skills maybe? ... +2 spellcraft or Knowledge arcane?
I forgot all about that. :eek: That's actually a good fluff bonus, without going too crazy. Plus, it's a good trade-off for a wizard. Do they play a high elf for the free martial weapons, or a grey elf for the bonuses to two good skills? Nice one! :D

I like what you did with them all though,
Thanks. :D

what about wild elves? (nm, keep them as is ... +2 dex, -2 int)
I hadn't put much thought into them. I never really use them, so I might not include them. If I do, keeping them at +2 Dex, -2 Int seems reasonable. If I applied "the formula", they'd have -2 Str, +2 Dex, and I'm not sure I like that for them. That being said, I might not have them in my next campaign anyway.

or just go with fluff changes as already mentioned ... right, longer life span too
Well, I like your skill boost idea enough that I'm fairly certain that's the route I'm going.

Thanks for the ideas! :)
key
07-02-07, 05:20 PM Well, I like your skill boost idea enough that I'm fairly certain that's the route I'm going.
Thanks for the ideas! :)
Hey, throw in the age boost while your at it! Grey elves were the longest-lived elf in 2nd edition anyway. 3.0/3.5 jipped them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobbyPants 06-26-07, 09:22 AM	I have decided to change elves somewhat for the next campaign I'm running. The basic idea is that I don't think they should be as strong as humans, based on their stated frail nature. So, the first solution I had was to give high elves (the PHB standard) -2 Str and +2 Int. This makes them the same as grey elves. Likewise, I figured I'd apply the same modifiers to wood elves, changing their original +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int to +2 Dex, -2 Con, effectively making them like high elves. This way, wood elves are stronger than other elves, but not humans. So far so good (IMO :P). Then I run into the problem with grey elves. At this point, high elves and grey elves are identical. I don't really want that. I also do not want to follow the pattern of adding an extra -2 Str, +2 Int. I in no way consider a race with -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +4 Int to be balanced. It's obvious what every player would do: play an arcane caster or skill monkey type, and never a fighter. So what do I do? I don't want to change any ability mod to be greater than +2 or less than -2. I was thinking about a simple feature swap. My first idea is to drop the martial weapon proficiencies that elves get, and replace it with a 1/day use of Detect Magic, or possibly Prestidigitation. Supposedly, this is a balanced swap according to YabaTheWhat's feature point system (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683). He considers both traits to be worth 2 FP. What do you think about that idea? Does anyone have any other suggestions? Any ideas how I can differentiate between the two races without making it a wizard-only race?
AAB 06-26-07, 10:17 AM	you could just drop grey elves from your setting, since the default elves would fill their niche.
Majick 06-26-07, 10:19 AM	...right. Well, why do you need a 'different grey elf'? why can't you use the same stats as high elves but simply have them ACT more regal, maybe have longer life-spans and live in high up mountain fortresses? Not every race that is given a description needs a stat for it Take dwarves for example, you almost always hear of 'strong muscular dwarves' but do they get a stat change in comparisson to humans? No. They don't. But everything i have ever read and seen always makes them sound like they could snap a human in two. Elves as well, in almost all the Forgotten Realms, Dragon Lance and various other setting, invariably are just as tough and enduring as humans, and sometimes even dwarves and they actually DO have a stat that says they shouldn't be. It's all about what your purposes are. First, do you NEED that many subraces? If yes, have you thought about Grey Elves having more wisdom, or even charisma? Think about it man
RobbyPants 06-26-07, 10:48 AM	you could just drop grey elves from your setting, since the default elves would fill their niche. I could I suppose, but at this point, I was planning on keeping them. I was hoping to accomplish a fairly subtle difference with the stats. ell, why do you need a 'different grey elf'? why can't you use the same stats as high elves but simply have them ACT more regal, maybe have longer life-spans and live in high up mountain fortresses? Not every race that is given a description needs a stat for it That thought had occured to me. I guess I was just carrying on with the example from the DMG and MM, which had them statted out differently. Take dwarves for example, you almost always hear of 'strong muscular dwarves' but do they get a stat change in comparisson to humans? No. They don't. But everything i have ever read and seen always makes them sound like they could snap a human in two. Well, part of this might be because every dwarf you read about is an adventurer. Just the same as humans, every human fighter-type you read about seems like they could snap you in two. I'd think that your average dwarf would be no more muscular. That example pertains to specific dwarves, not all dwarves. Elves as well, in almost all the Forgotten Realms, Dragon Lance and various other setting, invariably are just as tough and enduring as humans, and sometimes even dwarves and they actually DO have a stat that says they shouldn't be. I'm not using those settings. These stats are for my own campaign, as stated in my OP. :) It's all about what your purposes are. First, do you NEED that many subraces? It's only three at this point. I didn't want to use every published WotC sub race, if that's what you mean. If yes, have you thought about Grey Elves having more wisdom, or even charisma? I'm assuming you mean instead of the Int bonus? I hadn't considered that. It could be an interesting idea. One side effect of giving them a Cha boost would be that you would effectively end up with wizard-elves and sorcerer-elves. But, maybe that's not a bad thing.
AAB 06-26-07, 10:56 AM	i say give them a wis bonus if you absolutely have to have them. there are so very few races with a wis bonus as it is.
RobbyPants 06-26-07, 11:07 AM	i say give them a wis bonus if you absolutely have to have them. there are so very few races with a wis bonus as it is. Do you mean in place of the Int bonus, or offset by something else? For a brief while, I'd considered adjusting all of their stats by +/- 2, but I'm leaning away from that now. I'd considered giving +2 Wis/-2 Cha on the grounds that they're haughty and hard to get along with, but they're still wise. I'd also considered switching it to -2 Wis/ +2 Cha picturing them as a little naive, but still, with a forceful personality. In the end, I didn't think either was a good idea...
AAB 06-26-07, 11:09 AM	Do you mean in place of the Int bonus, or offset by something else? For a brief while, I'd considered adjusting all of their stats by +/- 2, but I'm leaning away from that now. I'd considered giving +2 Wis/-2 Cha on the grounds that they're haughty and hard to get along with, but they're still wise. I'd also considered switching it to -2 Wis/ +2 Cha picturing them as a little naive, but still, with a forceful personality. In the end, I didn't think either was a good idea... yeah, i'd replace the int bonus.
Niek 06-26-07, 11:10 AM	The frailness of elves is not in their str, its in their CON penalty.
RobbyPants 06-26-07, 12:25 PM	yeah, i'd replace the int bonus. I was hoping that's what you'd meant. The frailness of elves is not in their str, its in their CON penalty. True, with PHB elves. Still, I've never liked the idea of an elven warrior lifting 300 pounds above their heads. I especially never liked the idea of wood elves being as strong as half orcs. Is this only my opinion? Yes. But, as it stands, these are variations on the sub-races for use in my campaign. This is how I wanted them portrayed in my world. I'm not stating that I think these are "re-balanced" elves, or anything to that effect.
Wolf72 06-26-07, 12:30 PM	tough call ... other bonuses? to skills maybe? ... +2 spellcraft or Knowledge arcane? or some other Ex or Su ability? I like what you did with them all though, what about wild elves? (nm, keep them as is ... +2 dex, -2 int) or just go with fluff changes as already mentioned ... right, longer life span too
RobbyPants 06-26-07, 12:56 PM	other bonuses? to skills maybe? ... +2 spellcraft or Knowledge arcane? I forgot all about that. :eek: That's actually a good fluff bonus, without going too crazy. Plus, it's a good trade-off for a wizard. Do they play a high elf for the free martial weapons, or a grey elf for the bonuses to two good skills? Nice one! :D I like what you did with them all though, Thanks. :D what about wild elves? (nm, keep them as is ... +2 dex, -2 int) I hadn't put much thought into them. I never really use them, so I might not include them. If I do, keeping them at +2 Dex, -2 Int seems reasonable. If I applied "the formula", they'd have -2 Str, +2 Dex, and I'm not sure I like that for them. That being said, I might not have them in my next campaign anyway. or just go with fluff changes as already mentioned ... right, longer life span too Well, I like your skill boost idea enough that I'm fairly certain that's the route I'm going. Thanks for the ideas! :)
key 07-02-07, 05:20 PM	Well, I like your skill boost idea enough that I'm fairly certain that's the route I'm going. Thanks for the ideas! :) Hey, throw in the age boost while your at it! Grey elves were the longest-lived elf in 2nd edition anyway. 3.0/3.5 jipped them.