Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cybermorf 12-10-07, 02:31 PM	Ok this is the final version of the Half-Wolverine template. Feel free to use it and if posible feed back on play testing it. Thnx alot evryone for your help :D :D :D edit: Half-Wolverine The Half-Wolverine is in general a mutation of humanoids that gives him the ability to regenerate almost instantly from physical damage. In addition to that the Half-Wolverine’s skeletal structure is made of Adamantine. The Half-Wolverine template class can be taken by Medium or Large humanoids only, of any alignment. "Half-Wolverine" is usually an inherited template, but it could be acquired through special magical rituals as well. http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z246/Cybermorf/tables3.jpg Half-Wolverine Template Class Features All of the following are class features of the half-wolverine template class. Ability Score Changes: The indicated ability score increases or decreases by the amount noted. Adamantine Bones (Ex): The half-wolverine’s bones are transmuted into Adamantine metal giving him damage reduction 4/adamantine. The half-wolverine’s skeletal structure continues to change as noted in Table 1. Bone Spurs (Ex): The half-wolverine may, as a free action, cause portions of his skeleton to break his skin and protrude, causing him no damage or disability whatsoever. The protruding bones act as armor spikes and spiked gauntlets. The half-wolverine is automatically proficient in the weapons forged directly from his own skeleton, but not the normal weapons of the same type. Note that while normal bone is far more fragile than any forged weapon, the half-wolverine’s extraordinary skill causes his exposed bones to have the strength of steel. He may use this ability at will. As natural weapons, the half-wolverine’s bone spurs cannot be sundered. Claw Attack: The half-wolverine gains two claw attacks if he didn't already have them as a result of the Bone Spurs ability. For the base damage of the half-wolverine’s claw attacks, use the appropriate value from Table 2 if the base creature did not previously have claw attacks. If it did, use either the value from the table or the base creature's claw damage, whichever is better. The half-wolverine’s claws are natural attacks. Fast Healing (Ex):Starting at 1st-HD the half-wolverine regains lost hit points per round at the rate mentioned in Table 1. This effects do not stuck as the character progresses. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it does not allow the half-wolverine to re-grow or reattach lost body parts. At 11th-HD fast healing turns to Regeneration (see below). Racial HD Type Increase: At 1st HD, each of a half-wolverine's racial Hit Dice increases by one die type: d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, or d10 to d12. Class Hit Dice are unaffected. If the base race doesn’t have a hit die upgrade to d4. Rather than rerolling all racial Hit Dice, you can simply add 1 hit point per racial Hit Die to the half-wolverine's hit point total. Regeneration (Ex): From 11th HD the half-wolverine regenerates normal damage at the rate of 6 hit points per round. Any fast healing abilities are replaced by regeneration at this point. Just like fast healing this effects do not stuck as the character progresses, they are just upgraded. At 15+ HD the half-wolverine takes normal damage only from acid, fire, and electricity. Immunity to disease (Ex): From 3rd HD the half-wolverine has immunity to disease, this includes magical disease. Level Adjustment: The Half-Wolverine has a +3 LA. I also converted it to PDF format for downloading Half-Wolverine Template (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/21/1367703/Half-Wolverine.pdf)
VanGrue 12-10-07, 02:37 PM	Half-wolverine? Doesn't that imply, er... beastiality? XD Seriously though, are you maybe looking for something more like a Were-wolverine or something?
BowenSilverclaw1986 12-10-07, 02:41 PM	3 possible things I can think of: 1) Were-wolverine (lycanthrope template, MM) 2) Anthropomorphic wolverine (anthropomorphic template, Savage Species) 3) Feral template for a more human look, but still very feral (Savage Species) Hope this helps, Bowen
black dragon karameikos 12-10-07, 03:09 PM	3 possible things I can think of: 1) Were-wolverine (lycanthrope template, MM) 2) Anthropomorphic wolverine (anthropomorphic template, Savage Species) 3) Feral template for a more human look, but still very feral (Savage Species) The only thing I can think of is a template based off of the X-man Wolverine.
Cybermorf 12-10-07, 03:20 PM	The only thing I can think of is a template based off of the X-man Wolverine. That would be a good one if you think that it is his favorite Character. So maybe a Human as Base with some kind of natural regeneration and adamantine skeletal stracture but how can i make it fanctional ? Should i make it an aquired template?
VanGrue 12-10-07, 05:44 PM	That would be a good one if you think that it is his favorite Character. So maybe a Human as Base with some kind of natural regeneration and adamantine skeletal stracture but how can i make it fanctional ? Should i make it an aquired template? Ok, so that makes much more sense. As a template, it shouldn't matter too much what the base race is, though I'd stick with Humanoids. Maybe give it a HD-progressed healing factor: Start with fast-healing, working toward full regeneration. Maybe the first one can be fast-healing that kicks in or is usable when the character is at or below half his total HP. Then you can also add some basic damage reduction. Maybe start with 1 or 2 /adamantine, work your way up with the same HD progression scheme. Then finally, give it a natural claw attack. I'd say start with 1d4 or 1d6, and if you want you could give it another HD progression to increase in damage, assuming that this would likely become the character's primary mode of attack. Maybe you could treat it similar to the monk's unarmed strike progression, but seeing as how the claws would be adamantine weapons usable as natural attacks (and thus the character could make an attack with each hand in one attack), it probably shouldn't advance as quickly. Give it some thought. A build like this is probably looking at at-least a LA +2 with all these nice abilities, but I'd say it's worth it. I'd also leave the template at these special abilities. If someone wants ability mods or other special qualities or abilities (like gaining scent or something) then that should be an extra, separate template they could add on.
Moosh Nailo 12-10-07, 06:09 PM	The feral template from SS (p.115) is basically exactly that, VanGrue. Scaling fast healing, claws, scaling special attacks, nat armor, increase to physical stats, and some other neat add-ons, all for the ridiculously underpriced value of +1 LA. No DR though. I don't think Wolverine would have DR anyway.
black dragon karameikos 12-10-07, 07:03 PM	No DR though. I don't think Wolverine would have DR anyway. That's why I did not include it in my post. Wolverine had Regeneration, but no DR(unless you consider his adamantine skeleton as a way of Damage Reduction).
celestialkin 12-10-07, 07:11 PM	You could try the Osteomancer from the Dragon Compendium (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/books/v5748btpy7dxa&source=search). http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/Osteomancer.png It seems like the perfect class for that X-Men character. They are all about extending and altering their bone structure to use it as sharp melee weapons. If I remember correctly, their bones even harden and count as magic weapons and stuff. They also get some other abilities I can't recall at the moment. edit: Oh, just reread the class and it gets some things which might fit Wolverine. Among other things they get: Immune Disease: (very Logan like I believe) Bone Spurs: Which is uncannily similar to the Marvel character's ability. Basically, as a free action a portion of your skeleton bursts out of your fists and act as spiked gauntlets. You take no damage or pain, and they are as hard as steel. As you go up in level the natural weapons continue to improve and get special stuff. (There are some other things relating to Bone Spurs which I am not mentioning, so that I don't break the rules. Plus, people should always buy their books! Paizo needs it right now...)
VanGrue 12-10-07, 08:16 PM	The feral template from SS (p.115) is basically exactly that, VanGrue. Scaling fast healing, claws, scaling special attacks, nat armor, increase to physical stats, and some other neat add-ons, all for the ridiculously underpriced value of +1 LA. No DR though. I don't think Wolverine would have DR anyway. Oh, sorry. I haven't looked at the template very close. I figured the damage reduction would just be due to the adamantium skeleton. However, the fast healing works just fine on its own as well. I've seen the Osteomancer, and it looked interesting. I'd recommend more people check out the Dragon Compendium, though there are a lot of things in there that are indeed pretty broken overall. I liked the Unseelie fey template, but it's LA +0 and has a ton of great abilities that could be worth a point of LA on their own (like wings). It does give a ton of amazing ideas, though, and not everything is broken. I might actually try some of the classes in there some time.
Cybermorf 12-11-07, 09:38 AM	First of all thanks all of you that gave me all of those ideas. Taking notice of VanGrue's and celestialkin suggestions i created a template for the Half-Wolverine that has a total of LA +6. This one is my first template so i was going blindly most of the time so i would like your opinion in that. edit: Half-Wolverine The Half-Wolverine is in general a mutation of humanoids that gives him the ability to regenerate almost instantly from physical damage. In addition to that the Half-Wolverine’s skeletal structure is made of Adamantine. The Half-Wolverine template class can be taken by Medium or Large humanoids only, of any alignment. "Half-Wolverine" is usually an inherited template, but it could be acquired through special magical rituals as well. http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z246/Cybermorf/tables.jpg The character gains each extraordinary ability as soon as he meets both qualifications for it. Extraordinary abilities are cumulative, so a 1st-level half-wolverine whose character level is 3rd has fast healing 4, Immunity to Disease and Adamantine Bones 1 Half-Wolverine Template Class Features All of the following are class features of the half-wolverine template class. Ability Score Changes: The indicated ability score increases or decreases by the amount noted. Adamantine Bones (Ex): At 1st-level the half-wolverine bones are transmuted into Adamantine metal giving him damage reduction 2/adamantine. The half-wolverine’s skeletal structure continues to change as noted in Table 3. Bone Spurs (Ex): The 1st-level half-wolverine may, as a free action, cause portions of his skeleton to break his skin and protrude, causing him no damage or disability whatsoever. The protruding bones act as armor spikes and spiked gauntlets. The half-wolverine is automatically proficient in the weapons forged directly from his own skeleton, but not the normal weapons of the same type. Note that while normal bone is far more fragile than any forged weapon, the half-wolverine’s extraordinary skill causes his exposed bones to have the strength of steel. He may use this ability at will. As natural weapons, the half-wolverine’s bone spurs cannot be sundered. Claw Attack: At 1st level, the half-wolverine gains two claw attacks if he didn't already have them as a result of the Bone Spurs ability. For the base damage of the half-wolverine’s claw attacks, use the appropriate value from Table 2 if the base creature did not previously have claw attacks. If it did, use either the value from the table or the base creature's claw damage, whichever is better. The half-wolverine’s claws are natural attacks. Fast Healing (Ex): Starting at 1st-level the half-wolverine regains lost hit points per round at the rate mentioned in Table 3. This effects do not stuck as the character progresses. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it does not allow the half-wolverine to re-grow or reattach lost body parts. At 9th-level fast healing turns to Regeneration (see below). Racial HD Type Increase: At 1st level, each of a half-wolverine's racial Hit Dice increases by one die type: d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, or d10 to d12. Class Hit Dice are unaffected. Rather than re-rolling all racial Hit Dice, you can simply add 1 hit point per racial Hit Die to the half-wolverine's hit point total. Regeneration (Ex): At 9th-level the half-wolverine regenerates normal damage at the rate of 6 hit points per round. Just like fast healing this effects do not stuck as the character progresses, they are just upgraded . Any fast healing abilities are replaced by regeneration at this point. At 15th-level the half-wolverine takes normal damage only from acid, fire, and electricity.
BowenSilverclaw1986 12-11-07, 09:49 AM	If you want adamantine bones and DR, take a look at the Mineral Warrior template. Combining that with Feral should work for a Wolverine-like character methinks ;) Bowen
Cybermorf 12-11-07, 10:04 AM	If you want adamantine bones and DR, take a look at the Mineral Warrior template. Combining that with Feral should work for a Wolverine-like character methinks ;) Bowen I just looked at that template and found that it is almost the same as mine if you remove the regeneration and bone spurs things but i would like to keep them. So is my template very powerful for a LA +6 or is it ok to use it? thnx :D :D :D
Silverclaw 12-11-07, 11:14 AM	I would also go for the Feral template... its very wolverine like:D and perhaps some kind of adamantine graft for the bones/claws...
VanGrue 12-11-07, 02:46 PM	I just looked at that template and found that it is almost the same as mine if you remove the regeneration and bone spurs things but i would like to keep them. So is my template very powerful for a LA +6 or is it ok to use it? thnx :D :D :D The progression is way too fast, especially for the healing. You need to spread it out over 15-20 levels total. Make a separate table or something for it. For instance, look at the spell-like abilities the Half-Fey Template gets (here (http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) or in Fiend Folio). Even if you spread all the stuff out over a 6-level LA racial levels, The race gets too much at first level, and becomes too powerful at low levels. I know LA +6 is pretty steep, but there are ways to make it more worth playing while still locking away the full power until later. If you really think about it, Wolverine is essentially an Epic-level character. The claw damage progression's not bad, though. This of course is just my opinion.
Cybermorf 12-11-07, 04:34 PM	Well as i mentioned at one of my earlier posts this is my first attempt to make a template so i dint know i could do it like that. :rolleyes: I revised my tables and now look like this: http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z246/Cybermorf/tables.jpg The character gains each spell-like ability as soon as he meets both qualifications for it. Spell-like abilities are cumulative, so a 1st-level half-wolverine whose character level is 3rd has fast healing 4, Immunity to Disease and Adamantine Bones 1 What do you guys think? thnx :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
VanGrue 12-11-07, 07:01 PM	That's much more balanced, though fast-healing 4 at level 3 is definitely still pretty powerful. Unless you're constantly getting lots of damage, I can't see you even really needing to heal that much per round, but then every person's campaign could be different. You'll also want to make sure to include text mentioning that the fast healing turns into regeneration, otherwise someone using your template could just assume that the healing stacks, which I doubt is your intention (otherwise you would have started the regen at a lower pace, plus it's not a good idea to stack them anyway). Otherwise, it seems like you're making good progress.
Cybermorf 12-12-07, 09:02 AM	Well from my little experience in D&D i noticed that more powerful characters seem to get the most hits so i think that 4 hit points isn't that much if you think about it. When i was a player all the Critical miss and attacks was headed to me and i was always in a hard spot (believe me even a Half-elf/Half-Dragon Paladin cant stay alive if she gets all the attacks on her :D ). I have edited my first post and now the text and tables should look the way their supposed to. Tell me what you think :D :D :D :D
Awesome_Dude 12-12-07, 11:55 AM	That's much more balanced, though fast-healing 4 at level 3 is definitely still pretty powerful. You are forgetting that at 7th level, this guy has one (ONE!) hit die. That means that the first time he is hit by anything other than a pebble, he dies. Fast Healing does almost nothing for him.
VanGrue 12-12-07, 12:23 PM	I did somehow manage to forget about the loss of HD, though it seems this template advances the racial HD by one, though 1/6 isn't much. He'd end up being ECL 9 when he got Fast Healing 4, so that's not really so bad. I really prefer racial HD over LA, given the increase in HP, skills, feats, etc. Probably doesn't fit this, though.
Cybermorf 12-12-07, 05:57 PM	You are forgetting that at 7th level, this guy has one (ONE!) hit die. That means that the first time he is hit by anything other than a pebble, he dies. Fast Healing does almost nothing for him. Well i havent seen any 7th level characters having 2 HD yet ;) ;) I did somehow manage to forget about the loss of HD, though it seems this template advances the racial HD by one, though 1/6 isn't much. He'd end up being ECL 9 when he got Fast Healing 4, so that's not really so bad. I really prefer racial HD over LA, given the increase in HP, skills, feats, etc. Probably doesn't fit this, though. Could you please explain the ECL thing because i got a bit lost on that (i know what ECL means ;) ). But never the less i find it to be a very steady template for my first attempt don't you think? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :P :P
VanGrue 12-13-07, 12:24 AM	Could you please explain the ECL thing because i got a bit lost on that (i know what ECL means ;) ). But never the less i find it to be a very steady template for my first attempt don't you think? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :P :P Well, since it's a LA +6, as you said, that means that by the time you get to Fast Healing 4 at level 3, your effective character level combining your class levels and racial levels would be 9, right? I may have gotten a bit thrown off, myself, too.
Cybermorf 12-13-07, 06:18 AM	Yes that is right but it had LA +6 before i convert all the abilities to spell-like abilities with Table 3 so shouldn't that get the LA lowered to +2 or +3?
AtsuiShoto 12-13-07, 07:07 AM	A level-adjusted template is usually applied all at once, especially if it's not an acquired template (from the "half-" part of the title, this half-wolverine sounds like a process of breeding, not surgery or transmutation magic). That said, as you may know from experiencing or reading about D&D vampires (a +8 LA template applied all at once), such a very high level adjustment makes a character very difficult to play before a certain, quite high character level (perhaps ECL 15 or more). A better system may be needed for such high level adjustments, perhaps easing into them over time. To that end, I like that you are spreading this template out into multiple class levels, although I am not entirely sure that's what you're doing. Perhaps you should write out a brief description about how the template works with a normal character level progression, so that reading the charts you provided can be done based on more than intuition. Also, why are the abilities listed as spell-like abilities? Something like the adamantium bones shouldn't be dispellable unless there is a very wierd reason for it, the fast healing seems like the work of an over-active body healing itself (Ex, not Sp), and ability score bonuses are pretty much never spell-like.
Cybermorf 12-13-07, 08:32 AM	A level-adjusted template is usually applied all at once, especially if it's not an acquired template (from the "half-" part of the title, this half-wolverine sounds like a process of breeding, not surgery or transmutation magic). If you readed my description of the race i describe it as a mutation of humanoid races. As for the "half-" part i used it so it will not be confused with the Monster from MM. That said, as you may know from experiencing or reading about D&D vampires (a +8 LA template applied all at once), such a very high level adjustment makes a character very difficult to play before a certain, quite high character level (perhaps ECL 15 or more). A better system may be needed for such high level adjustments, perhaps easing into them over time. My only experience with half breeds is with Half-Dragon and i was the player so :rolleyes: :rolleyes: To that end, I like that you are spreading this template out into multiple class levels, although I am not entirely sure that's what you're doing. Perhaps you should write out a brief description about how the template works with a normal character level progression, so that reading the charts you provided can be done based on more than intuition. I am a Noob at this so if you could give me an example i could probably make something to clearyfie that. Also, why are the abilities listed as spell-like abilities? Something like the adamantium bones shouldn't be dispellable unless there is a very wierd reason for it, the fast healing seems like the work of an over-active body healing itself (Ex, not Sp), and ability score bonuses are pretty much never spell-like. Look this is my first attempt to make a Racial Template and DMing for that matter. For the creation of the tables i used the Half-Fey template as a base so basically i was copying that templates structure to make mine. I know that ability scores bonuses aren't spell-like but i didn't want to make a template that at 3rd level the character has a +4 STR bonus. If i change the text from "spell-like abilities" to "extrodinary abilities" will make it functional? this is my original tables. http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z246/Cybermorf/table1.jpg http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z246/Cybermorf/table2.jpg Compare them to the current progress and tell me ok? thnx :D :D :D :D :D
VanGrue 12-13-07, 08:21 PM	A level-adjusted template is usually applied all at once, especially if it's not an acquired template (from the "half-" part of the title, this half-wolverine sounds like a process of breeding, not surgery or transmutation magic). That said, as you may know from experiencing or reading about D&D vampires (a +8 LA template applied all at once), such a very high level adjustment makes a character very difficult to play before a certain, quite high character level (perhaps ECL 15 or more). A better system may be needed for such high level adjustments, perhaps easing into them over time. To that end, I like that you are spreading this template out into multiple class levels, although I am not entirely sure that's what you're doing. Perhaps you should write out a brief description about how the template works with a normal character level progression, so that reading the charts you provided can be done based on more than intuition. Also, why are the abilities listed as spell-like abilities? Something like the adamantium bones shouldn't be dispellable unless there is a very wierd reason for it, the fast healing seems like the work of an over-active body healing itself (Ex, not Sp), and ability score bonuses are pretty much never spell-like. He's attempting to create it similar to the savage progression scheme from Savage Species, which should help him ease a character into the racial abilities and make it easier on the player who wants to gain access to powerful racial abilities, but also class abilities, and also make the race thus playable from level 1 or 2 or so.
Cybermorf 12-15-07, 06:57 AM	Ok everyone i find it to be very good as it is so i am going to make a new thread to take people opinions on the LA. Thanks allot all off you for your help, it was very educational for me. :P :P :P :D :D :D
AtsuiShoto 12-15-07, 06:40 PM	I sincerely doubt the new thread is necessary. It appears that all you need to do is define how the template advancement applies to the character as he levels up. An initial level adjustment of +3 would be the "price" of the template, then as the character's hitdice increase the extraordinary abilities are gained. Here's your original set of tables, condensed into one table with an eye toward the advancement scheme I described above:Hitdice CR Abilities 1-2 +1 Bone spurs, 2 claws (1d4), fast healing 2, adamantine bones 2, improved racial HD 3 +1 STR +2, DEX +2, fast healing 4, immunity to disease 4 Claws (1d6) 5-7 fast healing 6, adamantine bones 4 8 Claws (1d8) 9-10 +1 STR +2, INT +2, regeneration 6, adamantine bones 6 11 Regeneration 8, adamantine bones 8 12-14 Claws (2d6) 15 +1 STR +4, CON +2, full regeneration, adamantine bones 10 Now, it looks to me like the abilities are grouped together instead of being spread out over the 5 levels. You may want to do a little redistribution. To that end, here's how I would do it:Hitdice CR Abilities 1-2 +1 STR +2, Improved racial hitdice, Claws 1d4, Fast healing 2, Adamantine bones 4 3-4 INT +2, Fast healing 4, Bone spurs 5-6 +2 CON +2, Claws 1d6, Adamantine bones 6 7-8 STR +4, Fast healing 6, 9-10 DEX +2, Claws 1d8, Adamantine bones 8 11-12 +3 STR +6, Regeneration 6 13-14 Claws 2d6, Regeneration 8, Adamantine bones 10 15+ +4 STR +8, Full regeneration
Cybermorf 12-20-07, 07:53 AM	I sincerely doubt the new thread is necessary. It appears that all you need to do is define how the template advancement applies to the character as he levels up. An initial level adjustment of +3 would be the "price" of the template, then as the character's hitdice increase the extraordinary abilities are gained. Here's your original set of tables, condensed into one table with an eye toward the advancement scheme I described above:Hitdice CR Abilities 1-2 +1 Bone spurs, 2 claws (1d4), fast healing 2, adamantine bones 2, improved racial HD 3 +1 STR +2, DEX +2, fast healing 4, immunity to disease 4 Claws (1d6) 5-7 fast healing 6, adamantine bones 4 8 Claws (1d8) 9-10 +1 STR +2, INT +2, regeneration 6, adamantine bones 6 11 Regeneration 8, adamantine bones 8 12-14 Claws (2d6) 15 +1 STR +4, CON +2, full regeneration, adamantine bones 10 Now, it looks to me like the abilities are grouped together instead of being spread out over the 5 levels. You may want to do a little redistribution. To that end, here's how I would do it:Hitdice CR Abilities 1-2 +1 STR +2, Improved racial hitdice, Claws 1d4, Fast healing 2, Adamantine bones 4 3-4 INT +2, Fast healing 4, Bone spurs 5-6 +2 CON +2, Claws 1d6, Adamantine bones 6 7-8 STR +4, Fast healing 6, 9-10 DEX +2, Claws 1d8, Adamantine bones 8 11-12 +3 STR +6, Regeneration 6 13-14 Claws 2d6, Regeneration 8, Adamantine bones 10 15+ +4 STR +8, Full regeneration Ok Sory for not being on for some days but i had some things to take care of. If am not mistaken the only way of taking a new Hit Dice is through class advancement. That means that a LVL 1 Human Half-Wolverine has 2 HD (1 from Racial hit dice and 1 from class hit dice). When he reaches the 2nd level he has 2 HD plus 1 gained from the new class level, so by lvl 16 he has 17 HD am i right? If that is the case then i dont see why not using this technique but if he dont take any more HD then he dosen't take any of the other abilitys that he would take with my way. With that noted, for the second table you posted, the claw attack is a resault of the Bone Spurs so it should probably look like this: Hitdice CR Abilities 1-2 +1 STR +2, Improved racial hitdice, Claws 1d4, Fast healing 2, Adamantine bones 4, Bone spurs 3-4 INT +2, Fast healing 4 5-6 +2 CON +2, Claws 1d6, Adamantine bones 6 7-8 STR +4, Fast healing 6, 9-10 DEX +2, Claws 1d8, Adamantine bones 8 11-12 +3 STR +6, Regeneration 6 13-14 Claws 2d6, Regeneration 8, Adamantine bones 10 15+ +4 STR +8, Full regeneration This table when it comes to CR, as you made it, has a CR 10 in comparison with the first table that has a CR 4. In adition to that it dosen't specify if it is for medium or Large humanoids so if the player makes a large humanoid Half-Wolverine he has the same claw attack as a medium humanoid of the same HD. With all this noted i think that my tables are a bit less confusing as to what the character gets as he progresses and it saws that even if the hit die do not increase the character will take the full abilities of the template (everyone is getting a lvl at some point right? :P :P :P ). I changed the text of my template so it says Extraordinary instead of Spell-like abilities so i guess that this would take care any broblem comming from despell effects. Looking forward for your opinion and thanks for your interest in this :D :D :D :D :D
VanGrue 12-20-07, 03:29 PM	The thing with leveling in 3.5 is that a character/monster takes into account level adjustments, racial hit dice, and class levels in order to find their ECL (effective character level). This makes it somewhat difficult to figure out how it fits in with other creatures at a given level. It's also why a lot of DMs don't allows the PCs to use LA-races or monster races for their characters.
AtsuiShoto 12-20-07, 04:15 PM	If am not mistaken the only way of taking a new Hit Dice is through class advancement. There are also monster classes, and in the case of some non-PCs, racial hitdice can be increased (animal companions, etc) That means that a LVL 1 Human Half-Wolverine has 2 HD (1 from Racial hit dice and 1 from class hit dice)Unless you're explaining the way you intend it to be with your template (in which case, it's totally up to you for your own games), you're incorrect. A human never has racial hitdice in D&D. Templates only add level adjustments. ]If that is the case then i dont see why not using this technique but if he dont take any more HD then he dosen't take any of the other abilitys that he would take with my way.What do you mean? I really don't understand what you're saying. The only way I know of to "advance" a character in any meaningful way is to take class levels or advance its racial hitdice (as noted above, usually reserved for monsters and animal companions). Gaining new abilities from a template as you gain hitdice is a standard convention in D&D already, with templates such as Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm). With that noted, for the second table you posted, the claw attack is a resault of the Bone Spurs so it should probably look like this: Ah, okay, that makes sense. I was just trying to separate the abilities, to help spread out the advancement, and I thought the claws would be more critical to the template's concept than the bone spurs, so I put them first. It's totally up to you, it's your templateThis table when it comes to CR, as you made it, has a CR 10 in comparison with the first table that has a CR 4. In adition to that it dosen't specify if it is for medium or Large humanoids so if the player makes a large humanoid Half-Wolverine he has the same claw attack as a medium humanoid of the same HD.The CR is just a suggestion. I've personally never used the CR system. As for the claws, I noted them as they would be for a medium character, but a description of the table could easily clear that up. These are just tables, they can't possibly be a comprehensive description of the template, and I'm only providing them as a suggestion to add to your ideas, not replace your input. i think that my tables are a bit less confusing as to what the character gets as he progresses and it saws that even if the hit die do not increase the character will take the full abilities of the template (everyone is getting a lvl at some point right? :P :P :P ). I still don't understand how the template is added to the base character. Is it equivalent to a monster class, in that it is a class that MUST be taken at first level, then taken in full over the course of 6 levels before multiclassing? The basis behind my table was that the template is taken the same way any template would be, following exactly the same rules, with a +3 LA. The template's abilities would be spread out, so that if it were applied to a Centaur (a creature with 4 racial hitdice) it would gain the first two tiers of abilities without even having class levels. If the half-wolverine centaur then took even a single class level (say... Barbarian) it would gain the 3rd tier of abilities from the chart. Every 2 barbarian levels beyond that, it would gain the next tier, until it hit ECL 20 (that's +5 LA, 4 racial hitdice, and 11 barbarian class levels) and gained the last tier of half-wolverine abilities. You could use that as an example in your template description, if you'd like. I changed the text of my template so it says Extraordinary instead of Spell-like abilitiesPerfect! thanks for your interest in thisYou're quite welcome. I hope I've been helpful.
Dog_O_War 12-20-07, 04:19 PM	You guys are forgetting the most important ability for those that want to be half wolverine, Bub. I don't take no <snip>, Bub(Ex): As a half-wolverine, you don't have to put up with all those laws of the city, and cheezy villain speeches, Bub. When doing something illegal in a city or town with a respectable authority, you may utter the words, "I don't play by your rules, bub" and be instantly aquitted of all crimes, Bub. Also, during villain speeches you get one free suprise round, catching your opponent flat-footed, even if he was aware of you walking up to him menacingly; this is because he must take your <snip>, and like it, Bub. Fortunately, this ability requires you to also end all sentances with "Bub", Bub. Most important ability, and you guys missed it, Bub.
Tyonisius 12-21-07, 10:21 AM	This is a very interesting idea and I'm eager to see where it ends up. Personally, I think this idea would work a lot better as a class however, the next best idea is using the template with hit dice progression as AtsuiShoto as suggested. Personally +3 LA might be low for it. generally, the CR of something is lower than it's LA. As a note I'd like to point out a couple of qualms I have with this template so far. I believe the strength is too high (while Wolverine was stronger than a human, I think a +4 would be fine. ALso I believe his dex should be a +4 too as he was fairly dexterous. The bone spurs and the claw should be combined... make bone spurs more of a flavor ability and claws be what they are for game mechanics purposes. I'm not 100% in agreement with YabatheWhat's FP system but its generally a fairly decent comparison tool. For those of you who aren't familiar with the tool I'll go ahead and say that a +3 LA (or ECL with no hit dice) should have 79-92 FP.... with an absolute max of 99. The problem with the system here is that Yaba has a Delayed Features rule... using it, 3 LA might actually work just fine in retrospect. Cost without Delay Cost Reduction STR +8 - 22FP (base) + 9FP (highest stat gain) = 31 Int +2 - 4 FP Con +2 - 4 FP Dex +2 - 4 FP Immunity to Disease - 8 FP Improved racial hitdice - 3 FP (figured this was similar to getting improved toughness minus the prereq FPs) Claws (2d6) - 10 FP Full Regeneration - 112FP (Regeneration 8 is worth 96 points, regeneration 10 is worth 112... I'm not 100% sure what "Full Regeneration" means.) Admantine Bones 10 - 62 FP Under normal circumstances this would be 238 FP. That means this is about a +7 LA. I probably made some mistakes in here and it may be as a high as +8 LA. Now, when figuring in the delay of getting the abilities it's very difficult cause the abilities progressively get better. With that in mind, I believe the only way to effectively do this would be to take each instance of the abilities (i.e. Fast healing 2, then fast healing 4, then fast healing 6). Then figure out the FP for each ability and the reduction in FP cost based upon delay. That is a lot of work and I may do it later when I'm bored because I'm very interested in doing something very similar to this with mako infusion in an FF7 campaign I am going to run. If anyone is unsure as to what I am talking about the link to the charts for FP progression is:FP Charts (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf) There is also an entire thread devoted to the FP system somewhere in the Races section. I'll edit and add more later. (Edit: Added in cost of Immunity to disease. Changed regeneration as I found the section dealing with it.) Here is about where it ends up taking into account delayed cost reduction. Basically the way the delayed cost works is that for every 2 levels the ability is delayed you multiple the FP cost by 2/3. So an ability that cost 3 FP but was delayed for 2 levels would cost 2 FP (3 x 2/3 = 2). Or an ability that costs 50 FP would cost 22 FP (50 x 2/3 x 2/3 = 22). Now, there are probably half a dozen or so different ways you could figure this out. I personally think that the delay reduction cost is a bit extreme in this instance and instead the cosst of the next level of progression should just be base cost minus the previous levels cost... i.e. Fast healing 4 normally costs 44 FP, fast healing 2 costs 28 FP. In a situation like this one I believe the FP cost for Fast healing 2 should be 28 FP but the cost for Fast Healing 4 should be 16 FP (the different between 44 FP and 28 FP). Anyway, without further math problems... Stat Gain Total - 6 FP (This is a prime example of why the cost reduction doesn't work in this case.) Immunity to Disease - 2 FP Improved racial hitdice - 3 FP (figured this was similar to getting improved toughness minus the prereq FPs) Claws (2d6) - 6 FP (I decided that this is basically 3 feats and for simplicity sake that is how I handled it. It's basically Improved Unarmed Strike and 2 stacked Improved Natural Attacks which don't normally stack) All Regeneration/Fast Healing - 58 FP (Another prime example of the cost reduction not working in this case.) Admantine DR - 28 FP (not as absurd as some of the other costs, but still very cheap for what you get end game). This brings your total to 103 which is a weak LA +4 character. Obviously the correct LA is somewhere in between LA +4 and LA +7. My guess would be a LA +5 in a high powered campaign and an LA +6 in a lower powered campaign.
Cybermorf 12-21-07, 10:59 AM	First of all i want to thank you all for your interest in this. I don't have a problem with Using HD progression in this template but the problem is that i don't understand how that works. I am not a very experienced player and i am just starting learning how to be a DM so could someone please explain to me what Hit Die has to do with the levels gained? Does the player takes a Hit Die every time he gains a level or is there some other way to that? Thnx again :D :D :D :D :D
Tyonisius 12-21-07, 11:12 AM	Generally you only encounter hit dice two ways, one is by using a monster as a PC race and the other is by taking class levels. What we mean by hit die progression is lets say you are a level 10 Human Fighter... then your hit die are equal to 10 (you get 1 hit die per level). However if you are a level 10 Minotaur Fighter your hit die are 16 Hit die. (Please note that the effective character level of the Human Fighter is 10, 10 class levels. But the effective character level of Minotaur Fighter is 18, 10 class levels, 6 hit die, 2 level adjustment). Now that I've explained this what we mean by hit die progression is exactly what the charts are currently showing. Where what benefits the template provides is based upon the hit die of the creature. The human fighter above would only get the abilities provided to 9 hit die and below from the chart. The Minotaur fighter would have access to all of the abilities. I hope that clears it up some... now I am going to go edit my other post.
Cybermorf 12-21-07, 06:34 PM	Generally you only encounter hit dice two ways, one is by using a monster as a PC race and the other is by taking class levels. What we mean by hit die progression is lets say you are a level 10 Human Fighter... then your hit die are equal to 10 (you get 1 hit die per level). However if you are a level 10 Minotaur Fighter your hit die are 16 Hit die. (Please note that the effective character level of the Human Fighter is 10, 10 class levels. But the effective character level of Minotaur Fighter is 18, 10 class levels, 6 hit die, 2 level adjustment). Now that I've explained this what we mean by hit die progression is exactly what the charts are currently showing. Where what benefits the template provides is based upon the hit die of the creature. The human fighter above would only get the abilities provided to 9 hit die and below from the chart. The Minotaur fighter would have access to all of the abilities. I hope that clears it up some... now I am going to go edit my other post. Thnx :D :D :D I knew it was something like that. So i made a new table according to the one posted here earlier: http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z246/Cybermorf/tables2.jpg As you can see i converted the tables to be HD progression based. I removed 2 of the STR bonuses so it now has a total of +4 STR bonus ( i made him a bit overpowered without noticing :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ) and kept the separate table for the Claw Attack values. So what do you think? Am i in the right path here? Thnx allot ;) ;) ;) :D :D :D :D
Tyonisius 12-21-07, 10:01 PM	Yeah, it looks much better now. I think that it fits a LA +4 much better without the extra 4 Str, but I might dare say it'd still be an LA +5 which would fit with my theory that in most cases the CR for a template is lower than the LA. By full regeneration are you referring primarily to taking subdual damage from everything except fire, acid and electricity? If so I'd say it warrants an LA +5 still but fits the +5 much better than it did before the strength change. It still might be over powered but I can't be sure without testiing it in play. Compare it to the Troll from the monster manual. In my opinion if you take away the feats, skill points, saves and BAB provided by the hit dice of the Troll, it's very comparable to this template in power. In fact this template has about equal natural attacks, regeneration is better on the template. The troll gets some armor bonus while the Template here gets a really nice damage reduction. The troll does have better stat gains, however, I would personally say some of that is due to the hit die and cut the gains in half, then they are much more comparable with the troll coming out slightly ahead. Stopping the comparison there (yes I left out some of the benefits of the Troll, but I believe it safe to say those were gained from the Hit Die), I'd say an LA of +5 still fits fairly well. Hope this has been helpful. Oh, and I miss the disease immunity that the template had, that was very Wolverine flavor and I think it should be added back and it won't affect the LA +5 a bit.
Tyonisius 12-21-07, 10:02 PM	Yeah, it looks much better now. I think that it fits a LA +4 much better without the extra 4 Str, but I might dare say it'd still be an LA +5 which would fit with my theory that in most cases the CR for a template is lower than the LA. By full regeneration are you referring primarily to taking subdual damage from everything except fire, acid and electricity? If so I'd say it warrants an LA +5 still but fits the +5 much better than it did before the strength change. It still might be over powered but I can't be sure without testiing it in play. Compare it to the Troll from the monster manual. In my opinion if you take away the feats, skill points, saves and BAB provided by the hit dice of the Troll, it's very comparable to this template in power. In fact this template has about equal natural attacks, regeneration is better on the template. The troll gets some armor bonus while the Template here gets a really nice damage reduction. The troll does have better stat gains, however, I would personally say some of that is due to the hit die and cut the gains in half, then they are much more comparable with the troll coming out slightly ahead. Stopping the comparison there (yes I left out some of the benefits of the Troll, but I believe it safe to say those were gained from the Hit Die), I'd say an LA of +5 still fits fairly well. Hope this has been helpful. Oh, and I miss the disease immunity that the template had, that was very Wolverine flavor and I think it should be added back and it won't affect the LA +5 a bit.
AtsuiShoto 12-22-07, 01:03 AM	LA hurts alot. For most templates and monsters it just flat out makes things unplayable as a PC. In that light, I would stick with +4 LA.
Cybermorf 12-22-07, 08:11 AM	Oh, and I miss the disease immunity that the template had, that was very Wolverine flavor and I think it should be added back and it won't affect the LA +5 a bit. I didn't ment to take it of it was an accident :rolleyes: . I am going to get it back on when the final LA is determined. As for the regenaration i explain it in the text on the previous page. :D :D :D LA hurts alot. For most templates and monsters it just flat out makes things unplayable as a PC. In that light, I would stick with +4 LA. Yeah it does. I would like it to stay at LA +4 if posible because this way i will not have a problem with the start of my Campaign. I'm planing on starting the campaign at lvl 5 so it would be nice to have the player get atleast on Class level before starting. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Cybermorf 12-26-07, 06:41 PM	Hi there. Merry Xmas and a happy new year to everyone. I haven't seen anyone posting this past few days so i am assuming that you agree with the LA+3? Could someone give me some final details because i am going to start my Campaign soon and i REALLY need this finished :D :D :D Thnx and Merry Xmas :D :D :D
AtsuiShoto 12-26-07, 08:27 PM	You may find that +3 leads to excessive character power. I think you're safe, though. Most likely it'll just be a template worth taking, which is not a bad thing at all, eh?
Cybermorf 12-28-07, 07:56 AM	Most likely it'll just be a template worth taking, which is not a bad thing at all, eh? Yes that was my intention after all :D . Thnx everyone once more for your precious help and i hope we could work together at future projects. I have edited my first post so now if anyone needs this template will be able to find it easily. :D :D :D
Cybermorf 03-05-08, 09:37 AM	:D :D :D :P :P :P
blade265 03-05-08, 01:40 PM	Sphinx Claws Magic of Incarnum p88 http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx20050907a_91040.jpg