Post/Author/DateTime	Post
herrproof 08-08-07, 04:01 AM	Greeting to all of you! I think I succeeeded in sorting out what makes too difficult tinkering with incorporeality as it is defined now. The assumption is, having no phisical body is just that! an incorporeal being can fly? That says Movement, who gave it in the first place? and so goes away passing through material things... Do you want that? buy it little by little with points (be it psionics, magic, skills, feats, traits or whatsoever)... an incorporeal being can attack? who gave telekinesis, or score attributes draining , or whatever else, for free? toning it down would be to me the possibility to incorporate ;) this characteristic to a 1st-level PC in order to play ghost-Mentors like Fujiwara-no-Sai in the "Hikaru No Go" Anime, or ghost-ghostsweeper apprentice like Okinu in "Ghost Sweeper Mikami" manga... What to you think? Am I overlooking something? If not, Er, I am not a real tinkerer, i would greatly appreciate any help in coding such a thing as per the D&D standards... thank you! --- HP
Lawlicron 08-08-07, 08:31 AM	Greeting to all of you! I think I succeeeded in sorting out what makes too difficult tinkering with incorporeality as it is defined now. The assumption is, having no phisical body is just that! an incorporeal being can fly? That says Movement, who gave it in the first place? and so goes away passing through material things... Do you want that? buy it little by little with points (be it psionics, magic, skills, feats, traits or whatsoever)... an incorporeal being can attack? who gave telekinesis, or score attributes draining , or whatever else, for free? toning it down would be to me the possibility to incorporate ;) this characteristic to a 1st-level PC in order to play ghost-Mentors like Fujiwara-no-Sai in the "Hikaru No Go" Anime, or ghost-ghostsweeper apprentice like Okinu in "Ghost Sweeper Mikami" manga... What to you think? Am I overlooking something? If not, Er, I am not a real tinkerer, i would greatly appreciate any help in coding such a thing as per the D&D standards... thank you! --- HP If you want to emulate the races in an anime/mange you'll get more replies on the anime D20 boards. Here is a link http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=444 Personally I think people on the DnD boards stay away from anime stuff because they don't want to be associated with it because of all the fanboyism attached to it (I hate it too). Here is what I think. Being incorporeal means being unattached to the physical world. That means you pass through things in the physical world because those things don't exist on your plane. You need flight because you can't stand on something that is not there. Your going to be hard pressed to make a race that is incorporeal(And usually therefore undead) at LA+0. Its just going to end up being a super long list of restrictions and penalties and when that happens people just play humans.
TheCarrionCrawler 08-08-07, 01:45 PM	http://film.onet.pl/_i/film/m/mlody_frankenstein/d.jpg IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.. ..ain't got no body! And nobody, cares for me! Ha cha-cha-cha! Cha-cha cha-cha-cha!
Salla 08-08-07, 01:49 PM	http://film.onet.pl/_i/film/m/mlody_frankenstein/d.jpg IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII.. ..ain't got no body! And nobody, cares for me! Ha cha-cha-cha! Cha-cha cha-cha-cha! Beat me to it!
herrproof 08-09-07, 07:22 AM	If you want to emulate the races in an anime/mange you'll get more replies on the anime D20 boards. thankyou, now I am interested in D&D responses. Being incorporeal means being unattached to the physical world. ok That means you pass through things in the physical world because those things don't exist on your plane. :confused: I think the opposite: Material things pass through immaterial ones. Saying "you pass through" implies you move. What of ghosts attached to a single place or object, or possessing the spirit of one selected individual, unable (or not having to) to go elsewhere that person is not present? You need flight because you can't stand on something that is not there. As material things do not interphere with immaterial ones, to a spirit no gravity exists to be winned; there is nowhere to fall towards. So no run, no fly, no anything. You have to go, you learn it as experience and need arise. Your going to be hard pressed to make a race that is incorporeal(And usually therefore undead) at LA+0. Its just going to end up being a super long list of restrictions and penalties and when that happens people just play humans. :weep: maybe someOne is williing to use penalties... strictly speaking, which part of what I wrote is so wrong, and why? -- HP
Lawlicron 08-09-07, 07:49 AM	If you just want to refute and combat everything I say, don't ask for opinions on this. You'll probably do better with this on the monster forum because your re-writing incorporeal and not yet actually making a race. Good luck.
Balthanon 08-09-07, 04:55 PM	an incorporeal being can fly? That says Movement, who gave it in the first place? an incorporeal being can attack? who gave telekinesis, or score attributes draining , or whatever else, for free? Incorporeal status grants a +2 level adjustment because it makes the character very difficult to kill or impede. The "fly" speed is solely to represent the fact that they aren't anchored in space-- even a creature bound to a space or another creature can likely move to some extent within the confines that creates. Generally through will power alone-- i.e. he wishes he were somewhere else and he moves in that direction. Generally, if you keep the fly speed to a standard 30, it is going to be incorporated into the existing level adjustment from being incorporeal. However, any large increases in that speed or special attacks would be added in separately. If you do want to try playing ghosts at low level, you can try picking up the Ghostwalk supplement though. That had enhanced rules for ghosts occurring after death and broke down the abilities a standard ghost gets into feats.
Balthanon 08-09-07, 04:58 PM	If you just want to refute and combat everything I say, don't ask for opinions on this. To be fair, you came off pretty harsh Lawlicron-- its pretty obvious this is his second language and it seemed more like he was trying to clarify and explain his ideas than shoot down your feedback.
herrproof 08-10-07, 04:16 AM	...If you just want to refute and combat everything I say, don't ask for opinions on this... Excuse me if my wording (and paragraphi-ing) resulted in something other than hints-to-develope-the-matter.:weep: -- HP
herrproof 08-10-07, 04:26 AM	Incorporeal status grants a +2 level adjustment because it makes the character very difficult to kill or impede. but by following my thoughts, it could be said the character cannot kill or impede anything in multiverse... The "fly" speed is solely to represent the fact that they aren't anchored in space-- even a creature bound to a space or another creature can likely move to some extent within the confines that creates. Generally through will power alone-- i.e. he wishes he were somewhere else and he moves in that direction. To me that's strange... to make it MontyHaulSyndromed, I think one could extend it "a bit" and jump to Teleportation... ...the fly speed to a standard 30, it is going to be incorporated into the existing level adjustment from being incorporeal. However, any large increases in that speed or special attacks would be added in separately. ...And decreases in that Fly Speed, say, to zero?;) My desire being to consider the rules in the base manuals... sigh... Ghostwalk, you say. I could consider to buy that, if you assure it could help me, thankyou:) -- HP
herrproof 08-10-07, 04:32 AM	this is his second language yes:embarrass he was trying to clarify and explain his ideas yes than shoot down your feedback. sorry, no hurt feelings please, I do not shoot anything:( -- HP
Radijs 08-10-07, 07:06 AM	but by following my thoughts, it could be said the character cannot kill or impede anything in multiverse...Unless that character takes wizard levels and starts shooting Magic Missiles. Force effects can still hurt.
herrproof 08-10-07, 07:42 AM	Unless that character takes wizard levels and starts shooting Magic Missiles. Force effects can still hurt. I'd say that the no-body-ed character, in itself, strictly speaking, cannot affect material things... But, certainly you're right... I admit I was following my personal penchant for "inflict-no-damage" roleplay...:embarrass Would you suggest a class limitation in order to disallow or discourage mixclassing with arcane spellcaster classes? Thankyou for the imput! -- HP
Radijs 08-10-07, 11:27 AM	Then the PC could still use ghost-touch weapons. It would make it a little harder but as soon as he gets 8000 gold together he'll be able to fight no trouble. Or a 5th level cleric casts "ghost touch weapon" on whatever's handy and the world's your mollusk. But on the other side of things. If you have a PC playing a character who can do almost nothing except observe, spy & comment I'd be worried if the guy would get bored during the times that the game becomes combat intensive (IE during a dungeon crawl) since he'd be forced to just sit back and do nothing.
tui 08-10-07, 11:42 AM	Yeah, I'm a bit confused as to what you're trying to achieve (I don't know either of the anime/manga references).. are you trying to make a race that is unkillable, but also can't kill others, due to it being incorporeal? Or are you just trying to find a way to play an incorporeal character from level 1 by reducing the benefits of the Ghost template... effectively making it +0 rather than +5? If the latter, you probably should take a look at the Ghost Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) which allows you to slowly gain the benefits of the Ghost template over 5 levels, rather than all at once.
TheCarrionCrawler 08-10-07, 12:17 PM	Then the PC could still use ghost-touch weapons. It would make it a little harder but as soon as he gets 8000 gold together he'll be able to fight no trouble. Or a 5th level cleric casts "ghost touch weapon" on whatever's handy and the world's your mollusk. Don't forget Faerun's Star Elves! Between dusk and dawn, they can ghost touch either weapon/armor.
herrproof 08-10-07, 12:26 PM	Then the PC could still use ghost-touch weapons....[omissis] I do not understand how a no-bodied character could gain access to weapons (or use them) or gold to trade for weapons or equipment, but probably I am not too much aware of all of the possibilities in all of the supplements ever...:embarrass ...But on the other side of things. If you have a PC playing a character who can do almost nothing except observe, spy & comment I'd be worried if the guy would get bored during the times that the game becomes combat intensive (IE during a dungeon crawl) since he'd be forced to just sit back and do nothing. you are right, set aside the word "Spy" if that means exploring/scouting all territories near a party of adventurers... Unfortunately (for my group of players) I prefer adventures with a minimal ration of slashing and killing and whatever... Let's say that, I would love to play this kind of fellow with no body myself, but that's my fault!;) thank you for your insights! -- HP
1 ton ghost 08-10-07, 12:28 PM	interesting to be sure, but incorporeal types are often muddled, not saying your design is, just alot of ppl fudge it. don't forget, you can't fly through just about anything. if you are a Med. creature (5ft.), that's all you can pass through. that is, 5ft. of stone, wall, whatever, so beyond that, you gotta back out. it's what keeps wraiths/spectres from flying through the planet. most walls are thinner than 5 ft., however, if there's earth packed in... this is why a Dread Wraith is so damned scary. it's 10ft (large) and has Spring Attack, so, feasibly, it can leap out of the floor/wall/ceiling, strike you, can jump back into it. so unless you can sunder 5ft. of stone quickly, you have to Ready Action (attack) to have any chance of hitting it, and even then, gotta' be a magic blade and that's still 50%, save ghost touch or force effects.
herrproof 08-10-07, 12:56 PM	Yeah, I'm a bit confused as to what you're trying to achieve (I don't know either of the anime/manga references).. excuse my absent-mindedness, I did not plan ahead it could result in an obscure note... one speaks of what his heart is full of, or so is what I love to think. are you trying to make a race that is unkillable, but also can't kill others, due to it being incorporeal? really, I'd like that! But I would gladly concede to set aside the "unkillable" to the world's possibilities... So, in the no-bodied state of being, a PC (or an NPC, for that matter) would be subject to ghost weapons, hostile spells and whatever else; yes, that is it. The "can't kill others" could well be in my intentions, but I would let it be decided first by subsequent possibilities and then by the single decision of the single individual. Or are you just trying to find a way to play an incorporeal character from level 1 by reducing the benefits of the Ghost template... effectively making it +0 rather than +5? This too is not too far for what I am aiming to;) :embarrass And if I succeed in getting, in the 1st or the 2nd class level, divine casting of non offensive nature spells, the better.(without the burden of armors weapons equipment etc etc, so no multiclassing) If the latter, you probably should take a look at the Ghost Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) which allows you to slowly gain the benefits of the Ghost template over 5 levels, rather than all at once. I did not check that, but as you phrase it, it spreads a template over multiple levels, while I am thinking to a 1st level PC with no phisical body. In order to role play a ghostlike Master only abled to teach the ancient game og GO to one destined pupil, or a ghostlike advisor to a priest in theological ways of thinking, etc etc . Thank you for your words on the subject! -- HP
Balthanon 08-10-07, 01:04 PM	...And decreases in that Fly Speed, say, to zero?;) My desire being to consider the rules in the base manuals... sigh... Ghostwalk, you say. I could consider to buy that, if you assure it could help me, thankyou:) You might actually have trouble finding Ghostwalk if you don't have access to a copy actually. It was a 3.0 book and released quite awhile ago-- truthfully, I don't recall for sure whether it even left ghosts their incorporealness. Though I think that it did. Ultimately, all of this really depends on your DM. So long as you aren't abusing your abilities to accomplish things that other characters of your level couldn't, there shouldn't be a problem with you playing a low-level ghostly character. Level adjustment is ultimately about enforcing fair play on player characters-- if you're restricting yourself, then you could technically play something with a higher level adjustment than you might otherwise be able to in some situations. A combat oriented character with bonuses to strength and such couldn't really restrict himself for instance, but in the case of a ghost, the benefits are partially situational. So long as you're not the one out scouting for the party and doing other activities where your incorporealness gives a large advantage, you shouldn't present a problem. This is basically how I see incorporeal being broken down in such a situation. - No physical body. - Can only be harmed by other incorporeal creatures or magic (weapons, spells, etc...) - Magic (weapons, spells, etc...) has a 50% mischance unless it is positive energy, negative energy, or a force effect. - The creature's attacks pass through natural armor, armor, and shields. (No effect unless magic weapon or special attack.) - Ghost touch allows damage both ways. - Equipment or possessions are incorporeal only as long as they remain in the creature's possession. - Spells and magic items affect other creatures normally. - No natural armor bonus, deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus. - Enter or pass through objects, must remain adjacent to object's exterior. (Cover when attacking out, full cover otherwise, does not apply to force effects.) - Sense presence of creatures adjacent to it, but they have full concealment. - Pass through water as easily as air. - Cannot fall or take falling damage. - Cannot make trip or grapple attacks. (Cannot move or manipulate opponent.) - Cannot be tripped or grappled. - Have no weight, do not set off traps triggered by weight. - Moves silently, cannot be heard with Listen check. - No Strength score, Dex applies to melee and ranged attacks. - Nonvisual senses ineffective or only partly effective. - Innate sense of direction, can move at full speed even when blind. - No physical body. + Can only be harmed by other incorporeal creatures or magic (weapons, spells, etc...) + Magic (weapons, spells, etc...) has a 50% mischance unless it is positive energy, negative energy, ghost touch, or a force effect. - No natural armor bonus. - Enter or pass through objects, must remain adjacent to object's exterior. (Cover when attacking out, full cover otherwise, does not apply to force effects.) + Pass through water as easily as air. - Cannot make trip or grapple attacks. (Cannot move or manipulate opponent.) - Cannot fall or take falling damage. + Cannot be tripped or grappled. + Has no weight, does not set off traps triggered by weight. - No Strength score, Dex applies to melee and ranged attacks. These are the abilities that I see as "must have" for a ghost. i.e. without them you're losing something inherent to being incorporeal and it doesn't really make sense to call it that anymore. With just this set of traits, I think you would basically be unable to affect the material plane other than essentially acting as a sentient illusion since I removed the traits dealing with the ghost using ghost touch and spells affecting the corporeal. The abilities gained are almost entirely defensive. You could do things like cast divinations, use bardic knowledge, etc... but the way I'm seeing this, even area affect spells or spells that alter the environment wouldn't work on the corporeal. (Maybe they just appear as a translucent image of the effect, for instance.) You're also not going to be casting beneficial spells on your fellow party members. - The creature's attacks pass through natural armor, armor, and shields. (No effect unless magic weapon or special attack.) - Ghost touch allows a ghost to damage a corporeal creature. - Equipment or possessions are incorporeal only as long as they remain in the creature's possession. (Can fire arrows with no mischance.) - Spells and magic items affect other creatures normally. - Deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus. - Sense presence of creatures adjacent to it, but they have full concealment. - Pass through water as easily as air. - Moves silently, cannot be heard with Listen check. - Nonvisual senses ineffective or only partly effective. - Innate sense of direction, can move at full speed even when blind. These are the remainder of the abilities. If you can do without them, then you shouldn't have a problem essentially acting as a neutral observer of the party, rather than participating directly in the action. (In my opinion anyway.) Even without these, the subtype is still probably worth +1, but you could likely play it at +0 without it causing too many problems if you're avoiding some of the obvious abuses like scouting.
herrproof 08-12-07, 03:52 AM	omissis thank you very much for your advice! I'll work on the subject. -- HP
sigma999 08-12-07, 04:53 AM	Spirits are incorporeal, but incorporeality is too unbalancing. A PC can become a spirit if they die. I imagine some DM somewhere saying, "No! Death is too unbalancing! From now on no one dies, got that?"
herrproof 08-13-07, 11:35 AM	This is basically how I see incorporeal being broken down in such a situation.. [omissis] ..These are the abilities that I see as "must have" for a ghost. i.e. without them you're losing something inherent to being incorporeal and it doesn't really make sense to call it that anymore. With just this set of traits, I think you would basically be unable to affect the material plane other than essentially acting as a sentient illusion since I removed the traits dealing with the ghost using ghost touch and spells affecting the corporeal. [omissis]Even without these, the subtype is still probably worth +1, but you could likely play it at +0 without it causing too many problems if you're avoiding some of the obvious abuses like scouting. please take a look at this: -- Assignment Focus [Object/Person] The subject is bound to a specific object, or person, unable to move away from it more than 10 feets. Between them, the line of sight must be unobstructed, If the focus [Object] is destroyed, or the focus [Person] dies, subject is taken away form Cosmos until reassignment to a new Focus takes place. -- this is meant to limit the no-bodied to the places where one of the party is located (by having the focus or by being the focus). So the SuperPowered Scout syndrome can be disposed of. By taking this, could I join as a no-bodied to a 1st level party? -- HP
Balthanon 08-13-07, 01:34 PM	Here is my attempt at a template that might fit what you're looking to do. I think it is fairly balanced and I was thinking that a feat which allowed the creature to add an additional spectral assignment would be fair as well. (Perhaps with an ability to move between the bound regions a few times per day regardless of distance if you put in requirements that make it unavailable until higher level.) Spectral Observer Similar to ghosts, spectral observers are the remnants of intelligent beings who have a connection or bond with a creature or object that is so strong that it overcomes the pull of the afterlife and keeps the spirit upon the Material Plane. A spectral observer greatly resembles its corporeal form in life, but in some cases the spiritual form is somewhat altered. Creating A Spectral Observer "Spectral Observer" is an acquired template that can be added to any aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or plant. The creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) must have a Charisma score of at least 6. A spectral observer uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Size and Type The creature’s type is unchanged. While spectral observers are similar to ghosts, they are in many ways less than the undead, being closer to misplaced petitioners without an attachment to an outer plane. Do not recalculate the creature’s base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. It gains the incorporeal subtype. Size is unchanged. Speed Spectral observers have a fly speed of 30 feet, unless the base creature has a higher supernatural fly speed, with average maneuverability. A spectral observer loses all other modes of movement. Armor Class Natural armor is the same as the base creature’s but applies only to ethereal encounters. When the spectral observer manifests (see below), its natural armor bonus is +0, but it does not gain a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier like a normal creature of the incorporeal subtype. Attack A spectral observer loses all the attacks of the base creature and may not directly affect other creatures. Full Attack A spectral observer loses all the attacks of the base creature and may not directly affect other creatures. Damage Against other creatures, the spectral observer usually cannot deal physical damage at all but can use its special attacks, if any, when it manifests (see below). Special Attacks A spectral observer retains all the special attacks of the base creature, although they do not directly affect other creatures. The spectral observer also gains a manifestation and ghost hand ability. The save DC against a special attack is equal to 10 + ½ spectral observer’s HD + spectral observer’s Cha modifier unless otherwise noted. Manifestation (Su) Every spectral observer has this ability. A spectral observer is normally almost imperceptible (DC 15 spot check) and cannot affect the material plane in any way. When a spectral observer manifests, it becomes visible, though it still appears slightly translucent. A manifested spectral observer can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested spectral observer can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor, though they deal no damage. A manifested spectral observer can strike with a weapon, but deals no damage regardless of the properties the weapon holds. A manifested spectral observer must make a move silently check in order to suppress the subtle whispering sound it makes when moving, unlike most incorporeal creatures. Unlike most incorporeal creatures, nonvisual senses generally work as well on a spectral observer as they do on other creatures, though to detect a non-manifested spectral observer, a DC 15 Wisdom check is required. When a spellcasting spectral observer manifests, its spells are visible as translucent outlines but do not affect other creatures. Some illusions may still be effective despite their translucent nature, however, most spells that have an effect upon other creatures are ineffective, including mind-influencing and benefial spells. Unlike a ghost, a spectral observer has only one home plane, the Material Plane. Ghost Hand (Sp) A spectral observer can use mage hand as a full round action (caster level equal to the spectral observer’s HD). When a spectral observer uses this power, it must wait 1d4 hours before using it again. This ability is one of the only methods that a spectral observer can use to directly influence the material world. Special Qualities A spectral observer has all the special qualities of the base creature as well as those described below. Spectral Assignment (Su) A spectral observer is bound to a specific object or person, unable to move away from it without great effort. If a spectral observer attempts to move more than 10 feet per HD away from the object of their spectral assignment they must make a DC 11 Will save. Furthermore, for each additional 10 feet beyond that limit that the spectral observer attempts to move beyond that point, it must make an additional Will save at an additional +2 to the DC. A spectral observer must make this Will save each round that it is away from its spectral assignment. For example, a 1st level elven spectral observer that was bound to their still living child could move no more than 10 feet away from the child normally. If they made a DC 11 Will save, they could then move up to 20 feet away and could attempt a DC 13 Will save to move 30 feet away. For each round that the spectral observer was 30 feet away from its child it would need to make a DC 13 Will save. Regardless of the distance that a spectral observer is allowed to move, they must keep line of sight unobstructed between themself and their spectral assignment. If line of sight is obstructed or the spectral assignmement moves out of range, the spectral observer must immediately move in the direction of their assignment. If the focus of their assignment is destroyed or dies, the subject immediately passes on to the afterlife themselves, losing their connection to the Material Plane. Rejuvenation (Su) In most cases, it is difficult to destroy a powerful spectral observer through simple combat: The "destroyed" spirit will often restore itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. A spectral observer that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its spectral assignment with a successful level check (1d20 + spectral observer’s HD) against DC 25. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a spectral observer for sure is to destroy the creature's spectral assignment. Turning Susceptibility (Ex) A spectral observer can be affected by a cleric that channels either positive or negative energy, despite the fact that it is not undead. If a cleric turns a spectral observer (using the standard turning rules) it is forced to unmanifest and may not manifest again for 10 rounds. If a cleric rebukes a spectral observer, it must immediately manifest itself. Abilities The same as the base creature, except that a spectral observer has no Strength score. Skills Spectral observers have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. These bonuses do not stack with any racial bonuses of the base creature. A spectral observer may make a survival check with a DC of 15 in order to determine the direction of its spectral assignment if out of sight. Otherwise same as the base creature. Environment Any, often as base creature. Organization Solitary. Challenge Rating Same as the base creature -2. Treasure None. Alignment Any. Level Adjustment Same as the base creature +0. Ghostly Equipment When a spectral observer forms, all its equipment and carried items usually become incorporeal along with it. In addition, the spectral observer retains 2d4 items that it particularly valued in life (with the exception of its spectral assignment and provided they are not in another creature’s possession). The equipment passes harmlessly through objects or creatures and magic items cannot affect creatures other than the spectral observer directly. The original material items remain behind, just as the spectral observer’s physical remains do. If another creature seizes the original, the incorporeal copy fades away.
hiryuu 08-13-07, 01:38 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm LA +4, 4HD.
herrproof 08-13-07, 02:17 PM	Here is my attempt at a template that might fit what you're looking to do. I think it is fairly balanced and I was thinking that a feat which allowed the creature to add an additional spectral assignment would be fair as well. (Perhaps with an ability to move between the bound regions a few times per day regardless of distance if you put in requirements that make it unavailable until higher level.) that's a cute thing indeed!!!!:angel: :angel: :angel: Go on please, develop it :) I was questioning myself: what progression could such a "monster" have? EG, at what level would it gain enough power to use telekinesis, or to multiclass, or to gain additional skills and feats, or to gain power aura (or more than one, with levels....) to give "a little help" to a cherished living focus? (thinking of the Spirits the Spirit Shaman call upon himself, etc) ...etc. I looove this thing!!!! A GuidingBenevolentPersonalSpirit :D Thank you very much!
Balthanon 08-13-07, 10:53 PM	that's a cute thing indeed!!!!:angel: :angel: :angel: Go on please, develop it :) I was questioning myself: what progression could such a "monster" have? EG, at what level would it gain enough power to use telekinesis, or to multiclass, or to gain additional skills and feats, or to gain power aura (or more than one, with levels....) to give "a little help" to a cherished living focus? (thinking of the Spirits the Spirit Shaman call upon himself, etc) ...etc. I looove this thing!!!! A GuidingBenevolentPersonalSpirit :D Thank you very much! At the moment, it is designed to be as close to +0 LA as I could make it while maintaining the appropriate flavor and providing a few interesting abilities. As a result, it doesn't have a "monster" progression-- instead, you would just level up as normal in different classes. So at 1st level, you would essentially be something like a spectral observer (elf) bard 1. At level 4, you might be a bard 3/martial 1 spectral observer-- basically you'll just level up as normal with this. If you want the powers of a ghost in addition to the basics provided there, then you're going to need to develop something to do that outside of the basic template. I would suggest using racial feats as one method of doing that or, if you can track down Ghostwalk, the feats in that might be a good method of handling that. Basically just make spectral observers qualify for the [Ghost] feats in that book, so they can take the feats to start picking up different ghost abilities. (They have them separated into different "schools" of abilities, like Haunt, Corruptor, Shaper, and so forth.) I would suggest broaching the template with your DM to see if he even goes for that much, then see if he wants it fleshed out further or would rather take it from there himself.
herrproof 08-14-07, 04:19 AM	...as close to +0 LA as I could make it I thank you again, but now that we are here, please could you develope it to +1 LA too? Possibly by "gaining" one of more of these: 1) If not Manifested, a) it is invisible b) it makes no sound c) it has no scent d) it leaves no tracks e) can be perceived by anyone with abilities akin to detect invisibility , spirit sense, etc; and seen by anyone with abilities akin to the Sight, True sight etc f) it is 100% visible and audible to the focus [living] g) when the Focus [living] is sleeping, it is within the eventual dream (unaffected and unable to affect) [it cannot act as an awake sentinel on behalf of a sleeping character] 2) 100% ability to correctly pinpoint the focus location. 3) the manifestation could be treated like an illusion of the former self limited to visual and sonic (speech only, no deafening roars or whatsoever) effects only. On the other hand, it could have only half HD (range 1d4 HitPoints) and the +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks could be a Feat available later... Ghost Hand (Sp) could it be a lesser Ghost hand - 1/day/lvl only, with the option of a Ghost Hand to be gained with a feat slot with a Spectral Observer (race/subtype) Level)? Rejuvenation (Su) I think it should be noted that Spectral Observers can be assigned only for the best developing of the Destined Focus; it cannot be, on the overall, detrimental like an infestation of a vengeful baneful ghost could be. Turning Susceptibility (Ex)...If a cleric rebukes a spectral observer, it must immediately manifest itself. could you clarify that a bit?:confused: Haunt, Corruptor, Shaper, and so forth.) But I do not feel these trais belong to a Spectral Observator, are hostile and baneful...:weep: Thank you again!:) -- HP
Balthanon 08-14-07, 07:49 AM	I thank you again, but now that we are here, please could you develope it to +1 LA too? Possibly by "gaining" one of more of these: 1) If not Manifested, a) it is invisible b) it makes no sound c) it has no scent d) it leaves no tracks e) can be perceived by anyone with abilities akin to detect invisibility , spirit sense, etc; and seen by anyone with abilities akin to the Sight, True sight etc f) it is 100% visible and audible to the focus [living] g) when the Focus [living] is sleeping, it is within the eventual dream (unaffected and unable to affect) [it cannot act as an awake sentinel on behalf of a sleeping character] 2) 100% ability to correctly pinpoint the focus location. 3) the manifestation could be treated like an illusion of the former self limited to visual and sonic (speech only, no deafening roars or whatsoever) effects only. You could probably add the first two at +1 LA without a problem. Just pull out the text about it requiring a move silently check and the spot check/wisdom checks to see it while not manifested and add text stating that it is invisible while not manifested. For the third one, that I don't think you can do it if you're aiming for what I think you are-- complete immunity to attack/damage is just too powerful. If you just want the character to seem fully visible to sight and sound rather than translucent, that probably wouldn't be game breaking to add in either on the +1 LA version or just to do with a feat. On the other hand, it could have only half HD (range 1d4 HitPoints) and the could be a Feat available later... There probably isn't any point to these changes. The skill bonuses were just put in as flavor for the spectral "observer" name. The half hit die would be a bit of a pain to implement-- the easier thing to do would just be to give them a Con penalty. Adding penalties to balance out additional abilties is a slippery slope from what I've seen though-- it is fairly easy to capitalize on a strength and negate or ignore a weakness through a proper build. could it be a lesser Ghost hand - 1/day/lvl only, with the option of a Ghost Hand to be gained with a feat slot with a Spectral Observer (race/subtype) Level)? A 1/day/level would probably be more useful to the spectral observer than what I posted here. As it is, they can use the ability at most once in an encounter and probably only a few times a day. It could probably be enhanced later with feats though-- something to reduce the recovery time, plus enhancements of its strength. I think it should be noted that Spectral Observers can be assigned only for the best developing of the Destined Focus; it cannot be, on the overall, detrimental like an infestation of a vengeful baneful ghost could be. It could be played like that-- I think it is best to leave open the option of the obsessive evil character who influences his/her focus negatively. Basically the child's invisible friend that tells him to do bad things which no one quite believes in. :) I think many would think that detrimental. could you clarify that a bit?:confused: The Turning Susceptibility was a bit more flavor and a touch of balancing. Basically a good cleric could "banish" the spectral observer (make him not manifest to anyone) and an evil cleric could force him to show himself (presumably to attack him). But I do not feel these trais belong to a Spectral Observator, are hostile and baneful...:weep: The ones that you would be interested in would probably be the Shaper, Traveler, and Poltergeist paths. The shaper feats were basically manipulating the ghosts own body to do things like make itself look different, sacrifice its own HP to heal others, create lights, etc... Traveler let it pick up different movement related abilities like flight (not completely applicable here) and Poltergeist was the "telekinesis" related abilities.
herrproof 08-14-07, 01:53 PM	Good for all I think it is best to leave open the option of the obsessive evil character who influences his/her focus negatively. Basically the child's invisible friend that tells him to do bad things which no one quite believes in. :) I think many would think that detrimental. I'll never allow that in my campaigns, though! :) The Turning Susceptibility was a bit more flavor and a touch of balancing. Basically a good cleric could "banish" the spectral observer (make him not manifest to anyone) and an evil cleric could force him to show himself (presumably to attack him). Weird... I was trying to imagine the two clerics doing that in the same instant on the same Spectral :D The ones that you would be interested in would probably be [omissis] ... those are good ideas, I think I'll have to buy Ghostwalk, one month or another (=shortage of funds ;) ) Thank you for all your work :cheer: -- HP