Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eolen 04-25-07, 03:25 AM	Hi, I have a few questions about the succubus level progression (Savage Species 196). The level stats appear to be kind of strange. Where it says you get +2 Cha at 6th and 2nd level, so at 6th you will have a total of +4 Cha from your progression, however what doesn't seem right is the Natural Armour bonuses: at 7th level you get +7 NA, at 9th lvl you get +9 NA, does this mean your total is +9 or +16 (Because then the charisma bonuses don't read correctly). At 12th level "Summon Balor (10%) is listed on the chart, however this ability is not listed under class features. Also, SR is listed for 9th level on the progression chart, but in the description says nothing about it being attained at 9th, only that "SR is equal to 6+your Succubus HD" If anyone could clear up any of these points it would be much appreciated, I'm trying to finish this build and I really don't understand some of this
Eolen 04-25-07, 04:23 AM	Also, do you get full feat progression for this in gestalt? I'm guessing no, but I thoguht I'd check Same question for skills and Hit Dice
DarkRhystar 04-25-07, 12:19 PM	The level stats appear to be kind of strange. Where it says you get +2 Cha at 6th and 2nd level, so at 6th you will have a total of +4 Cha from your progression, +10 actually. Don't forget the starting +6. however what doesn't seem right is the Natural Armour bonuses: at 7th level you get +7 NA, at 9th lvl you get +9 NA, does this mean your total is +9 or +16 (Because then the charisma bonuses don't read correctly). +9. Charisma is additive. Natural Armor is replacing. At 12th level "Summon Balor (10%) is listed on the chart, however this ability is not listed under class features. Printing goof-up. Also, SR is listed for 9th level on the progression chart, but in the description says nothing about it being attained at 9th, only that "SR is equal to 6+your Succubus HD" You gain SR equal to 6+HD at 9th level. Also, do you get full feat progression for this in gestalt? I'm guessing no, but I thoguht I'd check Same question for skills and Hit Dice Ignore the Succubus feat progression, your regular class will have already gotten the feats earlier. My guess for the other two is to simply use the other class's progression on the LA levels.
Morwen 04-25-07, 12:28 PM	As for gestalting a monster class with a regular class; there are no hard-and-fast rules for this, so you would have to ask your DM.
Balthanon 04-25-07, 12:28 PM	Also, do you get full feat progression for this in gestalt? I'm guessing no, but I thoguht I'd check Same question for skills and Hit Dice There aren't any hard and fast rules on LA in a gestalt build-- some handle it by having it replace only one side, others do both sides, or some combination thereof. Basically, you'll just need to ask your DM how he wants to handle it.
SpoonyBard 04-25-07, 04:09 PM	A few things to note about the Succubus/Incubus for 3.5 -They no longer have Unholy Blight. -Summon Balor (10%) was replaced by Summon Vrock (30%) -SR was incraeased by 6 points. -Polymorph is now Change Shape (Which is actually BETTER because you keep your physical ability scores) -A few of the other spell likes are gone, but all in all, I think Succubus is better in 3.5 than 3.0. Just make sure to take a look. http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#succubus-demon
crazy_monkey1956 04-25-07, 06:05 PM	I've had this come up before as a DM (very specifically a gestalt succubus) and here are some of my clarifications and fixes. First of all, it is important to note that Savage Species hovers between revisions of the core rules. It's something like 3.25 since it makes use of the revised version of monster feat and skill progression but lacks the updated versions of the most of the monsters it contains level progressions for. So, most of the progressions in the book require at least minor revisions, if not complete re-works. The manner in which ability score progressions are stated versus natural armor progression is a bit...confusing, in that the ability progressions are cumulative, but the natural armor progressions aren't. So, look to the end of the monster class for the last natural armor entry and that is the final natural armor bonus your character will have. The succubus monster class requires the following specific revisions. The claw damage needs to be increased to 1d6. Change the energy drain information in SS to conform to the entry in the Monster Manual. Change teleport without error in the SLAs to greater teleport. Remove the following SLAs: clairaudience/clairvoyance, darkness, desecrate, doom, unholy blight. Replace summon balor (10&) to summon vrock (30%). Add tanar'ri to subtypes. Add DR 5/cold iron or good at 5th level. Change DR 10/+2 at 11th level to DR 10/cold iron or good. Change class skills to bluff, concentration, diplomacy, disguise, escape artist, hide, intimidate, knowledge (all skills, taken individually), listen, move silently, search, spot, survival, use rope. Add SR 6+succubus class levels at 9th level. Also of note, the recent errata regarding polymorph trumps the monster manual for the succubus shape changing ability. Check the monster manual errata file available in Wizards' errata section. For gestalt purposes, you're proceeding into uncharted territory. An important note here is that skill progression, BAB, feat progression, saves and hit points are all based on actual HD progression. So, if you look at any given monster progression HD on their level chart, you will see that they gain feats at 3 HD, 6 HD, 9 HD, etc, just like a normal character. With that in my mind, for my campaign, the gestalt character's non-succubus side simply trumped the succubus progression on any "level adjustment" in the succubus progression. For example, a "normal" gestalt character gains the better HD each level, so a succubus/rogue would normally gain the succubus' d8. For my campaign, at level 3, when the succubus has a "level adjustment" level, the rogue's features took over, including a d6 HD for that level. Hopefully I clarified things more than confused them. Also, if you questions or corrections to my revisions, let me know. I've gone through and done revisions for about half of the SS monster progressions so far. Quentin