| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Timedude04-24-07, 08:12 AM | This idea popped into my head yesterday, so this morning, I looked around on the boards for some sort of race with no soul. I found a whole lot of nothing. Now, I don't want this race to be boring or one sided, just because they don't have a soul. The only penalty is that they have no afterlife (since they don't have a soul that would go to the realm of their diety), and they can't be resurected, or afected by any sort of magic that needs a soul, such a Vestiges, or Incarnum. The basci flavor has to do with the idea that their is only so many souls in the world. Asa a person dies, their soul retuens to the 'great world soul' (also the origins of incarnum), where it waits until a new being is born, at wich point it joins with that person. However, the reason for the souless is that the birth rate is outstriping the amount of souls. This, any where from 1-5% of the world's new borns (of all races) are born as souless. However, I don't want them to be a dozen diffent subraces. No matter which race they are born of, thay all have the same 'soulless' appearence. Could somebody help with some logical mechanics that would make this race intresting? I can do the flavor, I just want some help with the stating. Thanks, Timedude The above is the original first post. I'm holding onto it so those of you who read whole topics can make sense of this thread. The following is that I ended up with for my soulless race. It still needs tweaking, but it's near complete. Input is still more than welcome. Soulless About 100 years ago, the first ‘Soulless’ was born. Rumors ran like wildfire: The child was the spawn of a demon, the failed attempt at mating with a unfertile dragon, a horrible magi’s experiment gone wrong. Only a few week latter, another one was born into the world. Other the next month, dozens more were born. Rejected by their parents, or taken by members of the church, the ‘Soulless’ were raised by whomever would take them in. By the end of twelve years, the Soulless formed a visible minority in most towns. Second generation Soulless were born, and their race began to develop it’s own little culture. First generation Soulless are still occasionally born, but, for the most part, the Soulless are born within their own race. Personality: A common misconception is that Soulless are dark, moody individuals, void of any personality at all. In fact, it’s often quite the opposite. Soulless are often outgoing, very active individuals, living life to the fullest despite their ‘disability’. While the former also exist, many Soulless are just as active as any true human or elf. Soulless often inherit some of the same personality traits as their parent’s race. Physical Description: Soulless are usually anywhere from 5 to 6 feet tall, with fair builds, and weigh around 130 pounds. They have pale, white-grey skin, and black eyes, with no pupils. Their hair ranges from red-headed through brown and black, and even into dirty blond in color. They usually have very little facial hair until well into their thirties. Ears are often slightly pointed, like half-elves. They are usually very good looking, with fairly refined features, but their eyes and skin make them seem a bit unnerving. Relations: Soulless often get along well with half-elves and half-orc, because of their sense of rejection by the other races. Humans are a close second, due to their willingness to except of many different groups. Gnomes are well liked as well. Elves and Dwarves, as well as Halflings, are often to involved with their own culture to care much for Soulless. Alignment: Soulless tend toward neutrality, and, as such, are the only race whose majority is true Neutral. Most Soulless have at least one aspect of neutrality in their alignment, although it is not rare to meet a Lawful Good or Chaotic Neutral Soulless either. Lands: Soulless are often found in cities within their own little district, or in the country within their own communities. They have only occasional contact from outsiders. Sadly, these communities are often poor or impoverished, though that is not always the case. Religion: Soulless often care little for deities, although a handful are attemopt to join churches of Boccob, Wee Jas, and Pelor. However, they are often downtrodden and rejected by the clerics of the particular church, whom often believe the Soulless are blasphemous, having no soul. Fharlangha, however, has numerous Soulless attend his wayside churches and shrines. Few Soulless do not have at least one small shrine to Fharlangha in their home. Soulless Clerics often follow him. Language: Soulless often speak Common. They have also began using a minor subsidiary language, made up of Druidic, Orc, Elven, and a half dozen other languages, known as Kaltesh. Kaltesh has gained popularity among the poor, impoverished, and common folk. It roughly translates to ‘tongue of the void’. In more wealthy cities, it has been outlawed. Names: Names vary wildly. Most Soulless have only one name, often given to them by a former parent, or newfound guardian. Names are often a combination of the many source languages of Kaltesh. Adventures: Soulless adventure for a variety of reasons, including to gain wealth, to try to attain a soul, in order to find their birth parent, and dozens of other reasons. -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. Medium: As Medium creatures, Souless have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Soulless base land speed is 30 feet. Soulless: Soulless have no souls, and thus cannot be raised or resurrected except by a Wish, Miracle, or True Resurrection. They are immune to all effects tied to the soul (such as Soul Bind and Trap the Soul) but also cannot use an effects that rely on their own soul. This includes (but is not limited to) a Cleric’s ability to receive divine magic, Incarnum and it’s affiliated abilities, and any other ability that is tied to the soul, at the DM’s discression. This can be overcome by buying a Soulstone Amulet (see below). +4 racial bonus to Bluff and Intimidate. The easiest way to discern a lie is to gaze into the person's eyes, the windows to their soul. A soulless' eyes are merely windows to empty rooms, however, and can hide great secrets. These dead, but aware eyes are highly disconcerting, and one fears gazing too long or too closely that they may be devoured by the abyss within. Faint Alignment. A soulless that is the target of such spells as detect evil registers as one aura rating weaker than he other wise would be. Bloodline: A Soulless gets one free Bloodline feat at the first level. The Soulless automatically meets and prerequisites based on race. Neutral Spellcasting: Soulless can cast spells of any alignment even if they are in direct conflict with there own alignment, or their class’ alignment restrictions. Aberration Type: A Soulless is considered an Aberration for all effects pertaining to type. Languages: Common. Bonus languages: Orc, Elven, Kaltesh. Favored class: Any Wondrous Item: Soulstone Amulet This amulet acts as a second soul, allowing Souless to receive Divine spells, use Incarnum, and otherwise emulate class features that require a soul. It does not allow, however, the character to be resurrected, or raised, or any other effect that would effect the character soul. Strong necromancy; CL: 16; Craft Wondrous Item, soul bind or trap the soul; 2000 gp. |
| babysalesman04-24-07, 10:08 AM | perhaps make them without a wisdom score. "But how will they be clerics or druids?" Well since they have no soul to go to a dieties plane, the diety doesn't care about them enough to grant them spells. If that's too extreme you could just put a negative modifier to the wisdom or something. When you say souless though i think of a creature without much high abstract thinking, so they could be smart like a wizard, because that doesn't involve abstract thinking. They could come from any blood-line so they could be sorcerers. Obviously though they could be the other more physical class like rogue and fighter and stuffs. Also perhaps limit them to only being neutral on the good-evil axis, since i would think they lack much morality. you can use this, ignore it all or let it inspire you. Good Luck. |
| runestar04-24-07, 10:11 AM | If you have races of faerun, consider reading up on the kir-lanen. They are basically soulless creatures. As such, they can never be divine spellcasters.:) |
| Ogg04-24-07, 10:29 AM | If you're looking for something with that flavor check out Hellbred from Fiendish Codex II. It's kind of like that. |
| Timedude04-24-07, 11:33 AM | So, you guys are argueing that because they have no soul, the dieties don't care, right? I'm not sure I buy into that philosophy. Maybe their really is a kind, compasonate deity who cares more about a better world that their own skin. I agree that they may not be as attuned to religion, but I don't know if I want to block their ability to be clerics, druids, and paladins. They again, I may do away with a large amount of the classes for the campaign I'm envisoning. I'm not sure clerics will make the cut. I'm thinking of doing away with the three central classes: The Wis/Sor, the Clr, and the Rog. I want the party to be more intresting than the usual adventureing build. But, back on topic, I'll think about penalizing wisdom. I don't see how not having a would would limit that, though. I was thinking about either penalizing, or adding a bonus to, the will saves. Is that to drastic? The logic is, because they have no soul, they either 1.(penalty) don't have the soul's belief that helps them get through such an event, or 2.(bonus) because they have no soul, the fight harder to hold onto the life they already have. What do you think? Anything else come to mind? Timedude |
| Ebonyte04-24-07, 12:07 PM | Ravenloft 3.0 covered this with a feat called Hollow. You become immune to energy drain, magic jar, trap the soul, the malevolence ability of ghosts (ironic, if you ask me), and all forms of possession, but you cannot be reincarnated, resurrected, or raised. You've gotta take it at 1'st level, and if you face people with a wisdom score above 12, your innate sense of wrongness adds a penalty to all social checks (In Ravenloft this was factored into your Outcast Rating, but you could just add a case-by case penalty.) We had a lot of fun with this, as one of the characters fought against his own nature, seeking a way to build himself a soul. He was a necromancer out to birth himself, he said, and there was a lot of great role-playing that came out of it. |
| runestar04-24-07, 11:03 PM | So, you guys are argueing that because they have no soul, the dieties don't care, right? I'm not sure I buy into that philosophy. Maybe their really is a kind, compasonate deity who cares more about a better world that their own skin. It is more like the other way round, actually. Kir-lanen, because of their unique method of creation(they were formed from the remains of the 3 dead deities), were cursed and condemned by the other gods. Rather, it is because the deities don't care, that they do not have souls, to the best of my understanding.:) |
| UnrelentingHoror04-25-07, 02:41 AM | So, you guys are argueing that because they have no soul, the dieties don't care, right? I'm not sure I buy into that philosophy. Maybe their really is a kind, compasonate deity who cares more about a better world that their own skin. Lets not forget about the evil side of the coin here. Who cares if they have no soul, its an agent on the mortal plane. I mean thats half of what having priests is about right? The soul part is just a bonus. Also as far as druids go, it could be argued that one could be a part of the natural cycle and revere nature without actually having a soul. So yeah they might take some small penalty if in fact you give them a WIS negative but I wouldn't go barring classes. Think of the archetypes you'd lose! The hero with nothing to lose and the scumy souless villain who knows no mercy and serves powers darker and more alien than you can imagine. |
| Timedude04-25-07, 11:17 AM | How about the following? Souless 'Insert fluff here' -2 Wisdom, possibly +2 Dexterity Medium: As Medium creatures, souless have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Souless base land speed is 30 feet. Souless are imune to all abilitys, spells, spell-like abilitys, ect, tied to the soul. Thus, they can not be resurected, can have their souls trapped or consumed, or even practice pact magic. Languages:Common Bonus languages:any Favored class: ? It's still rough, so PEACH it all you want. This is by no means the actual race. it is just a rough concept we ca n further develope. Any and all comments are welcome. Timedude |
| Phalo04-25-07, 12:06 PM | How about the following? Souless 'Insert fluff here' -2 Wisdom, possibly +2 Dexterity Medium: As Medium creatures, souless have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Souless base land speed is 30 feet. Souless are imune to all abilitys, spells, spell-like abilitys, ect, tied to the soul. Thus, they can not be resurected, can have their souls trapped or consumed, or even practice pact magic. Languages:Common Bonus languages:any Favored class: ? Add in a restriction of classes that need a soul/spirit. (divine spells caster incarnum stuff like that) this is because not that the dieties don't care more like they would need a connection to a diety to be granted power. only exception i could think to that rule would be like the Ur priest prestige class. I am thinking that a souless person would fall more along the lines of a biological construct or an animal. Doesn't mean they are not intelligent creative flexible people but it would be like a a clone spell not yet completed. also change the dex +2 to a Int +2 these are being more focused on the mental aspect of life. also give them a negitive on some social skills like diplomancy when dealing with people they are gonna feel off to most people. |
| Timedude04-25-07, 04:30 PM | Add in a restriction of classes that need a soul/spirit. (divine spells caster incarnum stuff like that) this is because not that the dieties don't care more like they would need a connection to a diety to be granted power. only exception i could think to that rule would be like the Ur priest prestige class. I am thinking that a souless person would fall more along the lines of a biological construct or an animal. Doesn't mean they are not intelligent creative flexible people but it would be like a a clone spell not yet completed. also change the dex +2 to a Int +2 these are being more focused on the mental aspect of life. also give them a negitive on some social skills like diplomancy when dealing with people they are gonna feel off to most people. Glad somebody actually came up with some advice. Note to self: always have a rough stat idea to list. People are more receptive. I really don't want to restrict the classes unless I absolutly have to. The inteligence I like, as well as the -on diplomacy. Maybe I should just make a carisma penalty instead. He needs another bonus, then. Thanks, Timedude |
| SpoonyBard04-25-07, 05:57 PM | (Forgive the Kingdom Hearts reference) Nobody Nobody is template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid. +2 int, -2 Charisma: As soulless beings Nobodies have weaker emotional responses and have difficulty understanding emotions, However, this allows them to lead a more logical life. Nobodies have no souls, and thus cannot be raised or ressurected except by a Wish, Miracle, or True Ressurection. They are immune to all effects tied to the soul and cannot use an effects that rely on their own soul. Nobodies are immune to charms, compulsions, fear, and morale effects. As soulless creatures, their emotions cannot be manipulated. A Nobody can never benefit from a morale bonus. Nobodies cannot rage or frenzy. LA: +1? |
| Phalo04-25-07, 11:43 PM | G I really don't want to restrict the classes unless I absolutly have to. The inteligence I like, as well as the -on diplomacy. Maybe I should just make a carisma penalty instead. He needs another bonus, then. Thanks, Timedude how about instead of the whole divine class restriction you restrict like favored soul or any prestige class that requires commune so something like that. I like the idea for this template just having abit of trouble getting my head around a divine class without a soul. Just seems like someone without a soul would be disinclined to have anything to do with a diety. or maybe they rellay latch onto religion to gain a soul. |
| Phalo04-25-07, 11:52 PM | (Forgive the Kingdom Hearts reference) Nobody Nobody is template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid. +2 int, -2 Charisma: As soulless beings Nobodies have weaker emotional responses and have difficulty understanding emotions, However, this allows them to lead a more logical life. Nobodies have no souls, and thus cannot be raised or ressurected except by a Wish, Miracle, or True Ressurection. They are immune to all effects tied to the soul and cannot use an effects that rely on their own soul. Nobodies are immune to charms, compulsions, fear, and morale effects. As soulless creatures, their emotions cannot be manipulated. A Nobody can never benefit from a morale bonus. Nobodies cannot rage or frenzy. LA: +1? i like this take away the immunity to charm compulsion and fear though those are mind effecting not soul. and let them rage remove level adjustment. make them immune to magic jar and other soul effecting spells and immune to and give them partial cover from undead maybe. Whichever ones see souls. (maybe not) |
| Devil Gnasher04-26-07, 12:18 AM | How about this idea, instead of "souls" this new race of yours could have quasi-deific spirits. The difference would be that though both souls and spirits go towards the afterlife, souls are more earthly in nature containing only a small spark of divinity, while spirits are significantly more divine in nature. This means that those with souls (like humans and dwarves) are more connected with their physical bodies and can revivified with a “mere” raise dead. While those with spirits, are more connected to the Outer Planes and would require the power a resurrection spell to be restored to physical life. |
| Phalo04-26-07, 12:51 PM | How about this idea, instead of "souls" this new race of yours could have quasi-deific spirits. The difference would be that though both souls and spirits go towards the afterlife, souls are more earthly in nature containing only a small spark of divinity, while spirits are significantly more divine in nature. This means that those with souls (like humans and dwarves) are more connected with their physical bodies and can revivified with a “mere” raise dead. While those with spirits, are more connected to the Outer Planes and would require the power a resurrection spell to be restored to physical life. This reminds me alot of how elves used to be |
| Devil Gnasher04-26-07, 08:37 PM | This reminds me alot of how elves used to be Same for orcs I think. |
| The_Shaman04-26-07, 09:53 PM | Incarnate constructs, perhaps? I don't know how it works with the warforged, but incarnate constructs (Savage Species for the template) are iirc given only intelligence, not souls. |
| Timedude04-27-07, 07:20 AM | Ok, I've found a sort of solution to the whole 'have no soul results in class restriction' thing. Item: Soulstone Amulet Effect: This amulet acts as a second soul, allowing souless to recieve divine spells, preform pact magicc, use incarnum, ect. It does not allow resurects, re-incarnation, ect. Price: ??? It's supossed to be priced at about half of a usual 1st level charecter's starting money. However, if bought at first level by a soulless, it cost half price (which makes it one fourth). What do you guys think? Timedude |
| Phalo04-27-07, 12:11 PM | i like it a divine talisman to give a souless race a connection to the divine. |
| Timedude04-28-07, 07:11 AM | i like it a divine talisman to give a souless race a connection to the divine. Exactly! It also replaces the divine focus. Right now I'm really thinking hard about appearence. Here (http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs4/i/2004/237/9/f/Soulless.jpg) is a picture I really like. I may head over the art area and request a more traditional picture based on this art. Timedude |
| Lord_Of_The_Abyss04-28-07, 11:24 AM | In Magic Of Incarnum under Incarnum Campaigns, it does describe the Bastition Of Souls: "Inside the Bastition of Souls, crystalline trees sprout preincarnate souls, which appear like brilliant points of light. When "ripe," a soul falls from the tree in a flash of brighter light and the preincarnate soul flies off soon to incarnate somewhere in the multiverse. If picked before it is ripe, the preincarnate soul withers and dies within 10 rounds, dooming a creature somewhere in the multiverse to a soulless birth" How's this for a concept on how they come to be? (open to all comments) |
| penchant04-28-07, 12:19 PM | What I want to know is, why to you want to make Lawyer a racial template? :P |
| schpeelah04-28-07, 12:54 PM | There is a soulless race on polter.pl (Polish site) The Gods-Forsaken Everything as humans, exept: No soul: They cannot be afected by anything that deals with souls, like Magic Jar. They cannot be resurrected, raised etc. They cannot become intelligent or incorporeal undead. Immunity ti divine magic: They cannot be affectet by divine powers in any way that is subjec to SR. Barred classes: They cannot enter a class that has something ot do with divinity (cleric, druid, paladin). No human bonus feat or skill points, of course. |
| InkBlot04-28-07, 12:54 PM | ... they can't be resurected, or afected by any sort of magic that needs a soul, such a Vestiges, or Incarnum. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to use incarnum or binding. Both of these kinds of magic involve drawing in powerful souls from outside yourself. If anything, I'd think that a soulless person would be a more powerful binder. Vestiges would more readily inhabit a person if they knew they didn't have to compete for influence with another soul. Instead, I think that soulless binders should not have the option of avoiding a vestige's influence. In exchange, the soulless binder gains a greater benefit from binding a vestige. Maybe +2 to the save DCs of special attacks granted by the vestiges they bound. Similarly, a soulless incarnum user would have more room to store essentia inside themselves because they wouldn't have their own soul taking up room. Although I suppose that would also mean that the soulless incarnum user wouldn't have an internal self-renewing source of essentia. Maybe they could be like "essentia spell thieves", draining essentia off of creatures who do have souls. |
| Deathmond04-28-07, 01:07 PM | I don't know...I honestly think Pact magic users would get a bonus from not having a soul, not a penalty. Usually you tie your soul to the vestige, but since you have no soul, you have a big void where one should be, which would (in theory) allow you to hold more vestiges...or hold a bigger portion of each one in you. --That'll teach me to not read the entire thread. I didn't see the post right above mine. |
| Luis_Dragunov04-28-07, 03:06 PM | I don't know about them not having a wisdom score. I doubt that being without a soul removes your common sense and judgement. But first we should consider what does a soul, in D&D terms, really do for you. Aparently, it animates your body so it could be considered the source of the three mental stats (Int, Wis and Cha) but, since you want a race and not automatons of flesh, lets say that this race is unique in that aspect because, if I read the OP's post correctly, they not so much as lack a soul as they sort of share one with the world (kind of like the lifestream, eh?). Well, I doubt it would influence anything really major but some more hard/evil religions (and even others, just in principle) would be opposed to them solely because they are without a soul. I'd make them aberrations, maybe of whatever subtype you deem appropriate as well, and add, as was shown above, all the effects that the Ravenloft feat Hollow offered. But I think that the most curious aspect of the whole race would not be mechanical but, rather, the fluff. You should worry more about that than with mechanics ^^ There's great potential here. |
| Artifact04-28-07, 05:36 PM | I am just passing though but thought I'd mention this: Dragon Magazine #355 has an excellent article, "Ecology of the Devourer" by Owen K.C. Stephens. It basically describes how the devourers are a race without a soul who feed on the souls of others. As I write this (April 28th), the magazine is on newstands now. It has a May cover date and a picture of a dude that looks alot like a certain drow ranger. Anyway, someone here might find this useful. Long Live The Dragon! ;). |
| Prak, the Mad04-28-07, 05:57 PM | perhaps make them without a wisdom score. "But how will they be clerics or druids?" Well since they have no soul to go to a dieties plane, the diety doesn't care about them enough to grant them spells. If that's too extreme you could just put a negative modifier to the wisdom or something. When you say souless though i think of a creature without much high abstract thinking, so they could be smart like a wizard, because that doesn't involve abstract thinking. They could come from any blood-line so they could be sorcerers. Obviously though they could be the other more physical class like rogue and fighter and stuffs. Also perhaps limit them to only being neutral on the good-evil axis, since i would think they lack much morality. you can use this, ignore it all or let it inspire you. Good Luck. IMO, a soulless race would probably have a good deal in common with undead. So there's a start, maybe give them some minor undead-like traits. As to the wisdom, I can see that, though they should be able to steal spells, so allow them to advance as ur priests, and maybe druids, as druids just kinda soak up nature magic. as to the multi-race thing, just make it a template that's allowable as a core race. |
| Timedude04-29-07, 07:36 AM | In Magic Of Incarnum under Incarnum Campaigns, it does describe the Bastition Of Souls: "Inside the Bastition of Souls, crystalline trees sprout preincarnate souls, which appear like brilliant points of light. When "ripe," a soul falls from the tree in a flash of brighter light and the preincarnate soul flies off soon to incarnate somewhere in the multiverse. If picked before it is ripe, the preincarnate soul withers and dies within 10 rounds, dooming a creature somewhere in the multiverse to a soulless birth" How's this for a concept on how they come to be? (open to all comments) Thanks! Yet another reason to buy Magic of Incarnum. While I may not use thsi specific example, something simular will be perfect. ThanKs again! I don't see why they wouldn't be able to use incarnum or binding. Both of these kinds of magic involve drawing in powerful souls from outside yourself. If anything, I'd think that a soulless person would be a more powerful binder. Vestiges would more readily inhabit a person if they knew they didn't have to compete for influence with another soul. Instead, I think that soulless binders should not have the option of avoiding a vestige's influence. In exchange, the soulless binder gains a greater benefit from binding a vestige. Maybe +2 to the save DCs of special attacks granted by the vestiges they bound. Similarly, a soulless incarnum user would have more room to store essentia inside themselves because they wouldn't have their own soul taking up room. Although I suppose that would also mean that the soulless incarnum user wouldn't have an internal self-renewing source of essentia. Maybe they could be like "essentia spell thieves", draining essentia off of creatures who do have souls. Didn't think of it that way. I was operating under the assumption that the soul is a sort of connection that allows to draw essentia from the multiverse. I assumed something imular about binders. Since I don't have either book, I'm kinda making this up with limited knoledge. I'm going to review what's on the site, so I can get a better consenses. I don't know about them not having a wisdom score. I doubt that being without a soul removes your common sense and judgement. But first we should consider what does a soul, in D&D terms, really do for you. Aparently, it animates your body so it could be considered the source of the three mental stats (Int, Wis and Cha) but, since you want a race and not automatons of flesh, lets say that this race is unique in that aspect because, if I read the OP's post correctly, they not so much as lack a soul as they sort of share one with the world (kind of like the lifestream, eh?). Well, I doubt it would influence anything really major but some more hard/evil religions (and even others, just in principle) would be opposed to them solely because they are without a soul. I'd make them aberrations, maybe of whatever subtype you deem appropriate as well, and add, as was shown above, all the effects that the Ravenloft feat Hollow offered. But I think that the most curious aspect of the whole race would not be mechanical but, rather, the fluff. You should worry more about that than with mechanics ^^ There's great potential here. No, you missunderstood. Soulless don't have a soul. They have no soul because of a shortage of souls. The 'great world soul' is where all the souls come from, and return to. They are born with no soul. I am just passing though but thought I'd mention this: Dragon Magazine #355 has an excellent article, "Ecology of the Devourer" by Owen K.C. Stephens. It basically describes how the devourers are a race without a soul who feed on the souls of others. As I write this (April 28th), the magazine is on newstands now. It has a May cover date and a picture of a dude that looks alot like a certain drow ranger. Anyway, someone here might find this useful. Long Live The Dragon! ;). Thanks! I actaully though something simular when I read the arcicle a week ago. They may become a major problem im my campaign, as they actually consume souls. Thus, the number is reduced even less. Great hook. IMO, a soulless race would probably have a good deal in common with undead. So there's a start, maybe give them some minor undead-like traits. As to the wisdom, I can see that, though they should be able to steal spells, so allow them to advance as ur priests, and maybe druids, as druids just kinda soak up nature magic. as to the multi-race thing, just make it a template that's allowable as a core race. No! Not what I'm going for. I do not want them to be undead, or even have anything to do with undead. Thay are alive and well, just lacking a soul. In addition, while they come from other races, they are all more alike, and I hate level adjustments. I may just give them a sort of choice between various minor abilities tied to their race of origin. As for the whole stealing spells thing, I've no clue waht you're talking about. Please elaborate. Thanks for all the replys! You're helping keeping the idea alive! Timedude |
| Lord_Of_The_Abyss04-29-07, 09:43 AM | No! Not what I'm going for. I do not want them to be undead, or even have anything to do with undead. Thay are alive and well, just lacking a soul. In addition, while they come from other races, they are all more alike, and I hate level adjustments. I may just give them a sort of choice between various minor abilities tied to their race of origin. As for the whole stealing spells thing, I've no clue waht you're talking about. Please elaborate. Thanks for all the replys! You're helping keeping the idea alive! Timedude Yeah, I hate undead too :D I got an idea though, have it be -7 wis. or no wis. at all, immune to all fear effects, frightful presence, intimidate, all spells that affect the target's soul, DR 5 or 10 to incarnum spells, Alignment: any nongood (neutral counts), Type: aberration, outsider, or monstrous humanoid/humanoid?, Spell-Like Abilities: any the base creature has plus dispel magic and feather fall, Attack: (possibly) slam (1d4+1), Feats: combat reflexes, quicken spell-like ability (dispel magic), dodge, exotic weapon proficiency, weapon focus (slam), Advancement: by character class, Favored Class: most likely incarnate, sorcerer, hexblade, etc. (you decide on this) |
| Prak, the Mad04-29-07, 04:29 PM | No! Not what I'm going for. I do not want them to be undead, or even have anything to do with undead. Thay are alive and well, just lacking a soul. In addition, while they come from other races, they are all more alike, and I hate level adjustments. I may just give them a sort of choice between various minor abilities tied to their race of origin. As for the whole stealing spells thing, I've no clue waht you're talking about. Please elaborate. Thanks for all the replys! You're helping keeping the idea alive! Timedude I wasn't suggesting making them undead, I was simply pointing out that one could look to undead for inspiration, as undead have no souls. I suggested making it a template(never said anything about LA) because I think that the idea of a beholder, a human, and a dragon that all give birth to soulless that look exactly the same stretches belief. As for stealing spells, there is a prestige class called the Ur Priest that steals divine spells from the gods, rather than praying for them. I tossed it out there as an idea for Soulless that want to use divine magic(basically, don't say they can't use divine magic at all, just say that no god will give them spells, this still allows philosophical clerics, druids, rangers, paladins and Ur Priests.) |
| Timedude04-30-07, 11:31 AM | Yeah, I hate undead too :D I got an idea though, have it be -7 wis. or no wis. at all, immune to all fear effects, frightful presence, intimidate, all spells that affect the target's soul, DR 5 or 10 to incarnum spells, Alignment: any nongood (neutral counts), Type: aberration, outsider, or monstrous humanoid/humanoid?, Spell-Like Abilities: any the base creature has plus dispel magic and feather fall, Attack: (possibly) slam (1d4+1), Feats: combat reflexes, quicken spell-like ability (dispel magic), dodge, exotic weapon proficiency, weapon focus (slam), Advancement: by character class, Favored Class: most likely incarnate, sorcerer, hexblade, etc. (you decide on this) Not going for a monster. This is a PC Race. Nuf said. I still don't really want a template. Is their a template for vampire spawn? No. Any medium humanoid who is born souless uses this race. All others might use a seperate template. I know, one template would be simpler, but for right now, please comment on what I've already created, not what you think it should be. Please do not make a new race, template, feat, ect. I'm open to suggestions, though. Thanks you. Timedude |
| Prak, the Mad04-30-07, 12:00 PM | sorry, hadn't noticed you'd put something up already. What you've got looks good, I'd give them a bonus to bluff, as you can discern alot by looking into someone's eyes, and traditionally the eyes are the window to the soul... |
| Lord_Of_The_Abyss04-30-07, 04:41 PM | Not going for a monster. This is a PC Race. Nuf said. I still don't really want a template. Is their a template for vampire spawn? No. Any medium humanoid who is born souless uses this race. All others might use a seperate template. I know, one template would be simpler, but for right now, please comment on what I've already created, not what you think it should be. Please do not make a new race, template, feat, ect. I'm open to suggestions, though. Thanks you. Timedude That's why I said Advancement: by character class (sorry if that sounded slightly snobbish it wasn't meant to be :P) And sorry also if you didn't want it to be a template, it just kind of sounded like it when you said: "In addition, while they come from other races, they are all more alike, and I hate level adjustments" |
| ArcaneCleric05-01-07, 07:29 AM | I just thought of something which could be an important element of a soulless race. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a person commits more evil acts, they don't just go to the evil alignment, but their soul also becomes more and more degraded, making them more succeptible to the attraction of evil. Now, this doesn't mean that a soulless person is automatically of the evil alignment. However, there is the possibility that a soulless person could (if spellcaster) cast spells with an evil alignment (such as a lot of necromancy spells) without automatically being turned to an evil alignment. Alternatively, they could have an automatic affinity for spells with an evil alignment, and get dicepool bonuses or a conditional 'automatic success' without need for a roll. What do people think of this element? |
| Timedude05-01-07, 11:27 AM | I just thought of something which could be an important element of a soulless race. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a person commits more evil acts, they don't just go to the evil alignment, but their soul also becomes more and more degraded, making them more succeptible to the attraction of evil. Now, this doesn't mean that a soulless person is automatically of the evil alignment. However, there is the possibility that a soulless person could (if spellcaster) cast spells with an evil alignment (such as a lot of necromancy spells) without automatically being turned to an evil alignment. Alternatively, they could have an automatic affinity for spells with an evil alignment, and get dicepool bonuses or a conditional 'automatic success' without need for a roll. What do people think of this element? I hadn't heard this take on the idea before. It's an intresting new viewpoint, though I disagree. Just because you have no soul doesn't mean you are instantly evil, or more inclined to commit evil acts. Right now, for the campaign I'm developing, the soul helps to determan a few personal traits, sensibilities, and habits. A person has a few traits simular to their previous re-incarnation. Other than that, the soul actually does very little, although it may have a certian alighnment inclination. The only trait, other than good old 'can't be effeted by soul stuff', is that most are nuetral. I may develope it further at a latter time, but the whole idea of an afterlife is pretty much lost in this campiagn, because everybody is in a constant cycle of re-incarnation. Timedude |
| Prak, the Mad05-01-07, 01:52 PM | actually I think Arcane was suggesting more or a less an immunity to evil acts... |
| Darth Syntax05-01-07, 03:38 PM | One possibility would be to make them inherently incapable of possessing an alignment of any sort, including TN. They might well be able to cast spells with alignment descriptors, but the actions would have no effect on the character. Another thought might be to make them, as has been suggested, immune to resurrection and that sort of thing. However, in all other respects they should be identical to "normal" people, which is going to raise some serious questions about the nature of the soul. |
| ArcaneCleric05-01-07, 07:49 PM | Timedude: I wasn't actually talking about being more inherently evil. I'll clarify. They aren't necessarily evil, nor are they necessarily good. However, they are immune to the effects of casting spells with evil alignment (such as not instantly or quickly changing to an evil alignment themselves), as the soul is not present to actually be degraded by the evil act. Read quote from Darth Syntax, it sums up what I meant: One possibility would be to make them inherently incapable of possessing an alignment of any sort, including TN. They might well be able to cast spells with alignment descriptors, but the actions would have no effect on the character. But as you said, it's an interesting take on it, but the soul could be interpreted differently, so its open for alteration or modification. |
| Timedude05-03-07, 07:21 AM | Oh, so resitant to alignment changes, eh? Hmm... I kinda like that. I'll think about it. I'm still thinking about how best to do racial traits. I'm thinking of doing a set of bloodline feats, each one for one of the core races, and maybe for some of their subspecies. They won't give you the same traits as the origin race, but they will allow a little of racial continuty. Timedude |
| Prak, the Mad05-03-07, 03:36 PM | that'd be cool, but I think it should tie to a racial trait so a soulless character doesn't have to use their first level feat to show they're descended from a dwarf, elf, w/e... so I'd say have a racial trait of "One bonus bloodline feat from the following list" |
| Dracomortis05-03-07, 04:21 PM | Hellbred have a trait exactly like what is being described. It is called Evil Exception and allows them to use any spells with the [Evil] descriptor regarldess of their alignment. You could simply change this to apply to all spells with any alignment descriptor. Anyway, I got to thinking about how these things could come from all different races and yet all be more or less exactly the same, so here's what I came up with. Before a creature is born, its body is exactly the same as that of every other creature in the multiverse. A dragon's body is exactly the same as that of a human, which is the same as that of a beholder. When the creature first comes into being (that is, when it gains life inside the womb of its mother), a soul of the parent creature's type inhabits the body, which then begins to morph and change into a predetermined type. Essentially, the soul determines what the body becomes. Thus, if a creature never receives a soul, it simply remains in the unshaped body that it began in, rather than becoming a specific race. Thus, a soulless that would have been a dragon is no different from one that would have been an elf, because up until that soul inhabitated the body, it was not determined what that creature would actually be. As for physical features, I imagine these things having pale white or dull grey skin that has a rubbery, almost artificial texture to it. The creature's general features are poorly defined, as if they are unfinished; their mouths are small, barely visible slits, their noses are little more than two holes in their face that serve as nostrils, and their eyes are pupiless orbs of darkness that reflect the emptiness behind them. Soulless are genderless and cannot reproduce, although certain rituals may allow them to "bud" a new soulless. Soulless rarely if ever show any emotion, for the most part uncaring towards the world. They are constantly overwhelmed by feelings of incompleteness and longing, ever searching for something they can never find. Sharing nothing in common with any race, they fall into the background of society, carving out roles where they are least likely to be noticed. Still, their need to find something to fill the void inside drives many soulless into the adventuring life. Setting out into the world hoping to find a place where they belong, the soulless forever wander in search of something as devoid of an identity as they are. |
| Timedude05-04-07, 07:31 AM | OK, so right now a penalty to wis, a bonus to int, imunity to soul effects, a free racial feat, and the good old imune to spell based alignment changes thing. I could be close to a finished race. I just need to work on the racial feats. And the fluff. Thanks for attempting to write some of it for me, but I think I need to ultimately decide. Oh, and I nedd a new piece of artwork. The other piece is just an inspiration piece, so I need somebody willing to create a piece of artwork for me. I'll send the details once I find somebody. Timedude |
| Prak, the Mad05-04-07, 03:21 PM | I could help with the picture, I'll edit this post with an example of my art, so you can see it before you commision... also, I was wondering if you'd mind me posting my own idea for soulless in another thread. I've had a few ideas I'd like to expand upon myself, but figured I ask you if you minded. edit: some examples of my work, Stannus the Satanic Paladin(LG); Ted the flayer; and Kai'c'kul, the anthro-dragonfly. http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c233/koomori/Stannus-bust.png http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c233/koomori/ted.jpg http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c233/koomori/kaickul.jpg |
| Timedude05-05-07, 07:26 AM | I could help with the picture, I'll edit this post with an example of my art, so you can see it before you commision... also, I was wondering if you'd mind me posting my own idea for soulless in another thread. I've had a few ideas I'd like to expand upon myself, but figured I ask you if you minded. Sure, go right ahead. All of this work is ment to be used by anybody whom wants to. It's in a public place, so as long as you don't claim it's yours, I don't mind a bit. In fact, once you type up the mechanics, I may just 'borrow' the formatting and such. I haven't taken the time to put it all together yet. Oh, and I'll link it at the first post, to. Be sure to do the same. I'll send you a PM for the artwork request once I see an example of your work. I may do some art, but it's not digital, and it would take the better part of a month. I may take my own swing at it, though. Timedude |
| Prak, the Mad05-05-07, 12:45 PM | thanks, I've got some ideas floating around, I just have to catch them and tie them down in order, and I edited with example of my art. |
| Timedude05-07-07, 04:49 PM | No offense to you or your art skills, but they're not up to the standard I'm looking for. To put it lightly, they need some work. I may just do the graphic myself. However, if anybody else is intrested, feel free to PM me. I'll be editing the first post shortly with an updated and (mostly) completed version of my race. At that point, it will mostlikely need some PEACHing. I'm still open to ideas, though. Timedude |
| Lord_Of_The_Abyss05-07-07, 08:19 PM | I'm a decent artist.....I might be able to send you some examples of my work.....all I have to do is find a way to get it on to the internet.......hmm....this could take a while...........:D |
| Prak, the Mad05-07-07, 11:04 PM | No offense to you or your art skills, but they're not up to the standard I'm looking for. To put it lightly, they need some work. I may just do the graphic myself. However, if anybody else is intrested, feel free to PM me. I'll be editing the first post shortly with an updated and (mostly) completed version of my race. At that point, it will mostlikely need some PEACHing. I'm still open to ideas, though. Timedude meh, ah well. |
| Larz_Fang05-11-07, 08:41 AM | I still don't understand how something can even be alive without a soul, but with my HUMONGOUS knowledge database of arcane and eldritch secrets located in both my brain and my computer, I'd say it requires more than little magic to keep something lacking a soul alive, so I'd say use these abilities: Soul Void(Su): A soulless creature is a mortal that has somehow lost the base of it's emotions, and cannot see dreams like most beings with a soul. Creatures lacking a soul effectively have no Wisdom score, but they still have a "hidden" Wisdom score to determine their bonuses or penalties to Wisdom-based skills. A soulless creature is immune to death magic, fear and morale failure, charm(but not mind domination), emotion-based mind-affecting effects, soul-affecting effects and all spells and abilities that require it's recipient or target to have a soul. A soulless creature is considered not to age as mortals do, but in time, they succumb to their lack of soul after having lived three times as long as they normally would. Also, a soulless creature cannot channel divine magic since it requires it's wielder to possess a soul, and it means also that a soulless creature can't be brought back with any other spell but a Wish or a Miracle. Soulless creatures usually seek to restore their soul, but some few still walk the world as exiles, never aging and never caring about anyone else in the world. Soulless creatures have no afterlife, and most supernatural forces (including gods) consider them truly as the most abhorrent variety of abominations. Magic-Dependant(Su): In order to support themselves, a soulless creature must have nourishment for both his body and his existance. A soulless creature suffers the same penalties from the lack of magical restoration as normal soulful creatures suffer from the lack of food (though soulless creatures still require food to upkeep their physical health.) To satisfy this hunger for magic, a soulless creature must have a beneficial arcane spell of at least 2nd level (Such as Bull's Strength) or equivalent (such as two Shields or Endure Elementses) casted upon them. When casted, a soulless creature can forgo the beneficial effect and instead absorb it into themselves. Such arcane meal is considered to be equal to a good meal that supports the creature's hunger for one full day. Or something similar, go nuts. |
| Timedude05-13-07, 08:07 AM | I still don't understand how something can even be alive without a soul, but with my HUMONGOUS knowledge database of arcane and eldritch secrets located in both my brain and my computer, I'd say it requires more than little magic to keep something lacking a soul alive, so I'd say use these abilities: Soul Void(Su): A soulless creature is a mortal that has somehow lost the base of it's emotions, and cannot see dreams like most beings with a soul. Creatures lacking a soul effectively have no Wisdom score, but they still have a "hidden" Wisdom score to determine their bonuses or penalties to Wisdom-based skills. A soulless creature is immune to death magic, fear and morale failure, charm(but not mind domination), emotion-based mind-affecting effects, soul-affecting effects and all spells and abilities that require it's recipient or target to have a soul. A soulless creature is considered not to age as mortals do, but in time, they succumb to their lack of soul after having lived three times as long as they normally would. Also, a soulless creature cannot channel divine magic since it requires it's wielder to possess a soul, and it means also that a soulless creature can't be brought back with any other spell but a Wish or a Miracle. Soulless creatures usually seek to restore their soul, but some few still walk the world as exiles, never aging and never caring about anyone else in the world. Soulless creatures have no afterlife, and most supernatural forces (including gods) consider them truly as the most abhorrent variety of abominations. Magic-Dependant(Su): In order to support themselves, a soulless creature must have nourishment for both his body and his existance. A soulless creature suffers the same penalties from the lack of magical restoration as normal soulful creatures suffer from the lack of food (though soulless creatures still require food to upkeep their physical health.) To satisfy this hunger for magic, a soulless creature must have a beneficial arcane spell of at least 2nd level (Such as Bull's Strength) or equivalent (such as two Shields or Endure Elementses) casted upon them. When casted, a soulless creature can forgo the beneficial effect and instead absorb it into themselves. Such arcane meal is considered to be equal to a good meal that supports the creature's hunger for one full day. Or something similar, go nuts. Hmm... Not sure about this one. Maybe a minor magical vamiric ability to start with (like able to absorb an 0 level spells within 5 feet) would work better. Remember, this is a PC race, not a monster. If I want a major vampiric ability, I'll do it through a racial class (in the works). Thats for the imput, though. I've updated the first post my finished race. It still needs some tweaking, but it's amost done. I might add that magic drain ability too... Timedude |
| Timedude05-15-07, 07:29 AM | I really hate to do this, but I really need some more input. :bump: Timedude |
| Timedude05-18-07, 05:26 PM | :bump: I really hate having to do this, but I can't let this race just die before I finish it. Please help to keep this topic alive! -Timedude |