Help with Hellbred [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with Hellbred [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
amiti282
08-17-07, 08:13 PM Hello everyone,
I am having a problem with a player at my group, he wants to become a Dread Necromancer (HoH) this is basically a necromancer, and being so, it specifically says he has to be of an evil alignment or true neutral, so far so good, but this player chose as a race to become a Hellbred (FCII), and while this character is generally described as a must-be-good character, there is no actual use of the words "A hellbred MUST be of good alignment" or any paraphrase of that, leaving a gigantic loophole on which we constantly debate. so in short my question is: Is there any word or sentence which conclusevly dictates that a hellbred must be of a good alignment, if so please post it here and where you got it from. On that note dread necromancers ultimately become liches. Does that refer to the lich described in the MMI, if so does he have to change alignment to Chaotic Evil, and if not what traits does he get?
P.S. Can anyone give me the rules on Racial bonuses- whether they stack, is there a limit to the bonus, and are there any exceptions (such as the tomes described in the DMG)
Any help would be appreciated, thank you all in advance.
tauaru
08-17-07, 08:48 PM Unfortunately I am not familiar with Hellbred. However, as to your postscript, I assume you are asking if bonuses stack for crossbreeds? Such as a Halfing/Elf? In that case, I think that the racial bonuses would stack as that character would get a +4 to Dex but a -2 to Str and Con. Other than that there are the half-templates in the Monster Manual for fiends, dragons, and celestials. The tomes in the DMG stack with everything, that is why they are super expensive.

P.S. Thanks for not posting a thread railing against 4E, its been a day and I am sick of it already...
Rerecros
08-17-07, 08:53 PM @tauaru, what the devil are you talking about?

@amiti282, though I lack the fiendish codex, I get the general idea of the hellbred. A hellbred dread necromancer simply wouldn't exsist. Becoming a lich sidesteps the whole "atone or be damned" thing.
LeuktheSavior
08-17-07, 09:03 PM ...look at the hellfire warlock in that book. its an evil hellbred.
Hellbred's can give into temptation just like everyone else. Now, I would say that they could be good and take that class, because the evil exception. The end justifies the means sort of thing. Fight fire with fire, the lesser of two evils, that sort of thing.
And libris mortis states there are such things as good liches, so they dont HAVE to be evil.
amiti282
08-17-07, 10:31 PM thank you for helping me with my two last question, but the first one remains unanswered as the Hellfire Warlock Prestige Class in that book doesn't say a thing about him being a Hellbred, so my questin remains still- Is it possible for the hellbred to become evil despite all the do-good he is said to be infused with? can anyone give me a specific word or sentence that utterly prove it (from any book at all)?
IRememberCecil
08-17-07, 10:34 PM thank you for helping me with my two last question, but the first one remains unanswered as the Hellfire Warlock Prestige Class in that book doesn't say a thing about him being a Hellbred, so my questin remains still- Is it possible for the hellbred to become evil despite all the do-good he is said to be infused with? can anyone give me a specific word or sentence that utterly prove it (from any book at all)?
No, the sample NPC is an Evil Hellbred. And the Hellbred fluff states (If I recall correctly) that some Hellbred do turn back to their Evil ways.

To ease your worries, there's nothing really unbalancing about a Hellbred Dread Necromancer. Just let him play it. It sounds like an intriguing character concept.
nighttree
08-17-07, 10:55 PM I don't believe there is any "restriction" on alignment with Hellbred.....however, they have "tasted" what awaits them because of their past life and it's evil ways, so most would want to avoid being damned for eternity.

Your question does address the same issue we have been struggeling with.
Can a Hellbred (by extension of the "evil exception" ability" take a PrC that requires being "evil" even if they are not ?
Alas we have not come to a consensus on this particular issue.

So our Hellbred "Ur-Priest" sit's and waits :D
AZNsupermarket
08-17-07, 11:01 PM I don't know if this solves your problem, but you can have a good aligned dread necromancer. The only place it says dread necromancer are never good are in the flavor text. Every other class that requires you to be a certain alignment has it spelled out in its stats. Take a look at the paladin, monk, barbarian, or bard, they all have their alignment restrictions spelled out right of the beginning of their stat write-up. The suggestion that all dread necromancer are non-good only comes into play because all of the majority of spells are of the evil sub-type, thus forcing a dread necromancer to be non-good. This doesn't come into play for hellbred because of their ability to cast spells of the evil sub-type while remaining good aligned. If you are afraid that becoming a lich will make you chaotic evil (I don't because any intelligent race can be anti-stereotypical and be of a different alignment, but whatever), take a prestige class after 8th level (the abilities start to stink for a while after this).
captianhowdy
08-17-07, 11:03 PM Actually, you can have a good aligned dread necromancer. The only place it says dread necromancer are never good are in the flavor text. Every other class that requires you to be a certain alignment has it spelled out in its stats. See the paladin or monk or barbarian or bard, they all have their alignment restrictions spelled out right of the beginning of their stat write-up. The suggestion that all dread necromancer are non-good only comes into play because all of the majority of spells are of the evil sub-type, thus forcing a dread necromancer to be non-good. This doesn't come into play for hellbred because of their ability to cast spells of the evil sub-type while remaining good aligned.

This pretty much sums it up. According to this, you could have your generic army of undead build on a Hellbreed. Ironic
IRememberCecil
08-17-07, 11:06 PM I don't know if this solves your problem, but you can have a good aligned dread necromancer. The only place it says dread necromancer are never good are in the flavor text. Every other class that requires you to be a certain alignment has it spelled out in its stats. See the paladin or monk or barbarian or bard, they all have their alignment restrictions spelled out right of the beginning of their stat write-up. The suggestion that all dread necromancer are non-good only comes into play because all of the majority of spells are of the evil sub-type, thus forcing a dread necromancer to be non-good. This doesn't come into play for hellbred because of their ability to cast spells of the evil sub-type while remaining good aligned.
The class does say that you have to be non-Good.
AZNsupermarket
08-17-07, 11:14 PM The class does say that you have to be non-Good.

It only says that in the flavor text, but not in the place that it usual place where you find alignment restrictions (see monk, paladin, bard, barbarian, etc). IMHO the put it in as a suggestion because the majority of the dread necromancer spell list is of the evil descriptor. The fact that a dread necromancer cast evil spells has no bearing on a hellbred's alignment. It's debatable, but you can make a pretty good case for a good aligned hellbred dread necromancer.
captianhowdy
08-17-07, 11:19 PM Actually, looking back on it, it does say specifically there can be no Good Dread Necromancer, they were at best solid neutral
malisteen
08-17-07, 11:21 PM Hellbred are usually good, and in fact almost never begin their hellbred 'lives' as evil beings.

However, true redemption is hard, and many, possibly even most hellbred eventually fall back into the evil they only barely had the chance to escape.

A hellbred is gifted with a body and special powers twisted by evil. This evil power is a temptation specifically intended to draw the hellbred back down the path of evil, and a 'hellbred' gifted by his infernal creator with necromantic power to temp him makes perfect sense with that.

Further, hellbred aren't stupid. They know they have a propensity for evil that they must fight every day. They know what awaits them if they die again with their quest for redemption unfulfilled, and as they know what temptation and evil feel like (even if they don't remember the specific events of their past life), they can recognize it when they feel themselves sliding back.

So a hellbred who knows how nearly impossible redemption can be might very well seek out some way to cheat death again, and permanently. The path to immortality offered by necromancy, and the Dread Necromancer path in particular, offers a Hellbred exactly that kind of third path, something perhaps easier then true redemption, and seemingly less miserable then final damnation.

All together, I'd say a Hellbred Dread Necromancer makes plenty of sense.
IRememberCecil
08-17-07, 11:23 PM It only says that in the flavor text, but not in the place that it usual place where you find alignment restrictions (see monk, paladin, bard, barbarian, etc). IMHO the put it in as a suggestion because the majority of the dread necromancer spell list is of the evil descriptor. The fact that a dread necromancer cast evil spells has no bearing on a hellbred's alignment. It's debatable, but you can make a pretty good case for a good aligned hellbred dread necromancer.
The "Making a ..." entry is the new "Game Rule Information" entry. It specifically says that Dread Necromancers cannot be Good-aligned. Whether the Hellbred's ability overrules that requirement can only be determined by you (I lent the book to a friend and he hasn't returned it, the bastard).

In newer books most of the fluff is at the back of the class entry. But there are rules found within the fluff at the front. The rules state what you can and can't do, while fluff states what your character is likely to be like.
amiti282
08-18-07, 01:12 AM thank you guys you were very helpful, and by the way the "avoiding death" idea is exactly what he was thinking of when decidng on that Race-Class combination, and I have to admit this is quite clever of him to think about it, this trully does fall in the "outside the box" catalog, taking advantage of both all supplements available, creating character combinations from completely different books, and finally taking advantage of the many WoTC loopholes(intentional and unintentional, not to offend of course) in such a way to create a very powerful character, so just for the effort he deserves making that character, don't you think?
thanks again
malisteen
08-18-07, 10:55 AM At high levels, it also can provide a lot of nifty options. A dread necro who becomes a necropolitan (a popular undead template form Libris Mortis), may find himself stalked by the inevitable that doesn't like people who cheat death (away from book, forgive me) when they become appropriate challange level enemies. A 20th level DN who becomes a lich is sure to run into advanced, unique versions of these monsters. One who follows this path might also be seen as breaking a contract by his refusal to participate in the 'repent or be damned' quest, the very reason he was granted a new life to begin with, and thus might run into the other inevitable as well.

Imagine the possibilities for his 7th level familiar - which in this case should be an imp. A devil who serves him, but also provides a constant tempting voice urging him back to evil. A devil who also is the perfect spy, able to report back to his devilish masters once the character has finally succumb completely and become evil again. At that point the character is likely to run into powerful devils sent to slay him and in so doing return his soul to hell. At level 20, when the character has become a lich, these devils just happen to have access to a spy who can tell them where his phylactory is hidden.

Rather then get hung up on it, treat it as a source of potential adventure hooks for mid to high level play.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
amiti282 08-17-07, 08:13 PM	Hello everyone, I am having a problem with a player at my group, he wants to become a Dread Necromancer (HoH) this is basically a necromancer, and being so, it specifically says he has to be of an evil alignment or true neutral, so far so good, but this player chose as a race to become a Hellbred (FCII), and while this character is generally described as a must-be-good character, there is no actual use of the words "A hellbred MUST be of good alignment" or any paraphrase of that, leaving a gigantic loophole on which we constantly debate. so in short my question is: Is there any word or sentence which conclusevly dictates that a hellbred must be of a good alignment, if so please post it here and where you got it from. On that note dread necromancers ultimately become liches. Does that refer to the lich described in the MMI, if so does he have to change alignment to Chaotic Evil, and if not what traits does he get? P.S. Can anyone give me the rules on Racial bonuses- whether they stack, is there a limit to the bonus, and are there any exceptions (such as the tomes described in the DMG) Any help would be appreciated, thank you all in advance.
tauaru 08-17-07, 08:48 PM	Unfortunately I am not familiar with Hellbred. However, as to your postscript, I assume you are asking if bonuses stack for crossbreeds? Such as a Halfing/Elf? In that case, I think that the racial bonuses would stack as that character would get a +4 to Dex but a -2 to Str and Con. Other than that there are the half-templates in the Monster Manual for fiends, dragons, and celestials. The tomes in the DMG stack with everything, that is why they are super expensive. P.S. Thanks for not posting a thread railing against 4E, its been a day and I am sick of it already...
Rerecros 08-17-07, 08:53 PM	@tauaru, what the devil are you talking about? @amiti282, though I lack the fiendish codex, I get the general idea of the hellbred. A hellbred dread necromancer simply wouldn't exsist. Becoming a lich sidesteps the whole "atone or be damned" thing.
LeuktheSavior 08-17-07, 09:03 PM	...look at the hellfire warlock in that book. its an evil hellbred. Hellbred's can give into temptation just like everyone else. Now, I would say that they could be good and take that class, because the evil exception. The end justifies the means sort of thing. Fight fire with fire, the lesser of two evils, that sort of thing. And libris mortis states there are such things as good liches, so they dont HAVE to be evil.
amiti282 08-17-07, 10:31 PM	thank you for helping me with my two last question, but the first one remains unanswered as the Hellfire Warlock Prestige Class in that book doesn't say a thing about him being a Hellbred, so my questin remains still- Is it possible for the hellbred to become evil despite all the do-good he is said to be infused with? can anyone give me a specific word or sentence that utterly prove it (from any book at all)?
IRememberCecil 08-17-07, 10:34 PM	thank you for helping me with my two last question, but the first one remains unanswered as the Hellfire Warlock Prestige Class in that book doesn't say a thing about him being a Hellbred, so my questin remains still- Is it possible for the hellbred to become evil despite all the do-good he is said to be infused with? can anyone give me a specific word or sentence that utterly prove it (from any book at all)? No, the sample NPC is an Evil Hellbred. And the Hellbred fluff states (If I recall correctly) that some Hellbred do turn back to their Evil ways. To ease your worries, there's nothing really unbalancing about a Hellbred Dread Necromancer. Just let him play it. It sounds like an intriguing character concept.
nighttree 08-17-07, 10:55 PM	I don't believe there is any "restriction" on alignment with Hellbred.....however, they have "tasted" what awaits them because of their past life and it's evil ways, so most would want to avoid being damned for eternity. Your question does address the same issue we have been struggeling with. Can a Hellbred (by extension of the "evil exception" ability" take a PrC that requires being "evil" even if they are not ? Alas we have not come to a consensus on this particular issue. So our Hellbred "Ur-Priest" sit's and waits :D
AZNsupermarket 08-17-07, 11:01 PM	I don't know if this solves your problem, but you can have a good aligned dread necromancer. The only place it says dread necromancer are never good are in the flavor text. Every other class that requires you to be a certain alignment has it spelled out in its stats. Take a look at the paladin, monk, barbarian, or bard, they all have their alignment restrictions spelled out right of the beginning of their stat write-up. The suggestion that all dread necromancer are non-good only comes into play because all of the majority of spells are of the evil sub-type, thus forcing a dread necromancer to be non-good. This doesn't come into play for hellbred because of their ability to cast spells of the evil sub-type while remaining good aligned. If you are afraid that becoming a lich will make you chaotic evil (I don't because any intelligent race can be anti-stereotypical and be of a different alignment, but whatever), take a prestige class after 8th level (the abilities start to stink for a while after this).
captianhowdy 08-17-07, 11:03 PM	Actually, you can have a good aligned dread necromancer. The only place it says dread necromancer are never good are in the flavor text. Every other class that requires you to be a certain alignment has it spelled out in its stats. See the paladin or monk or barbarian or bard, they all have their alignment restrictions spelled out right of the beginning of their stat write-up. The suggestion that all dread necromancer are non-good only comes into play because all of the majority of spells are of the evil sub-type, thus forcing a dread necromancer to be non-good. This doesn't come into play for hellbred because of their ability to cast spells of the evil sub-type while remaining good aligned. This pretty much sums it up. According to this, you could have your generic army of undead build on a Hellbreed. Ironic
IRememberCecil 08-17-07, 11:06 PM	I don't know if this solves your problem, but you can have a good aligned dread necromancer. The only place it says dread necromancer are never good are in the flavor text. Every other class that requires you to be a certain alignment has it spelled out in its stats. See the paladin or monk or barbarian or bard, they all have their alignment restrictions spelled out right of the beginning of their stat write-up. The suggestion that all dread necromancer are non-good only comes into play because all of the majority of spells are of the evil sub-type, thus forcing a dread necromancer to be non-good. This doesn't come into play for hellbred because of their ability to cast spells of the evil sub-type while remaining good aligned. The class does say that you have to be non-Good.
AZNsupermarket 08-17-07, 11:14 PM	The class does say that you have to be non-Good. It only says that in the flavor text, but not in the place that it usual place where you find alignment restrictions (see monk, paladin, bard, barbarian, etc). IMHO the put it in as a suggestion because the majority of the dread necromancer spell list is of the evil descriptor. The fact that a dread necromancer cast evil spells has no bearing on a hellbred's alignment. It's debatable, but you can make a pretty good case for a good aligned hellbred dread necromancer.
captianhowdy 08-17-07, 11:19 PM	Actually, looking back on it, it does say specifically there can be no Good Dread Necromancer, they were at best solid neutral
malisteen 08-17-07, 11:21 PM	Hellbred are usually good, and in fact almost never begin their hellbred 'lives' as evil beings. However, true redemption is hard, and many, possibly even most hellbred eventually fall back into the evil they only barely had the chance to escape. A hellbred is gifted with a body and special powers twisted by evil. This evil power is a temptation specifically intended to draw the hellbred back down the path of evil, and a 'hellbred' gifted by his infernal creator with necromantic power to temp him makes perfect sense with that. Further, hellbred aren't stupid. They know they have a propensity for evil that they must fight every day. They know what awaits them if they die again with their quest for redemption unfulfilled, and as they know what temptation and evil feel like (even if they don't remember the specific events of their past life), they can recognize it when they feel themselves sliding back. So a hellbred who knows how nearly impossible redemption can be might very well seek out some way to cheat death again, and permanently. The path to immortality offered by necromancy, and the Dread Necromancer path in particular, offers a Hellbred exactly that kind of third path, something perhaps easier then true redemption, and seemingly less miserable then final damnation. All together, I'd say a Hellbred Dread Necromancer makes plenty of sense.
IRememberCecil 08-17-07, 11:23 PM	It only says that in the flavor text, but not in the place that it usual place where you find alignment restrictions (see monk, paladin, bard, barbarian, etc). IMHO the put it in as a suggestion because the majority of the dread necromancer spell list is of the evil descriptor. The fact that a dread necromancer cast evil spells has no bearing on a hellbred's alignment. It's debatable, but you can make a pretty good case for a good aligned hellbred dread necromancer. The "Making a ..." entry is the new "Game Rule Information" entry. It specifically says that Dread Necromancers cannot be Good-aligned. Whether the Hellbred's ability overrules that requirement can only be determined by you (I lent the book to a friend and he hasn't returned it, the bastard). In newer books most of the fluff is at the back of the class entry. But there are rules found within the fluff at the front. The rules state what you can and can't do, while fluff states what your character is likely to be like.
amiti282 08-18-07, 01:12 AM	thank you guys you were very helpful, and by the way the "avoiding death" idea is exactly what he was thinking of when decidng on that Race-Class combination, and I have to admit this is quite clever of him to think about it, this trully does fall in the "outside the box" catalog, taking advantage of both all supplements available, creating character combinations from completely different books, and finally taking advantage of the many WoTC loopholes(intentional and unintentional, not to offend of course) in such a way to create a very powerful character, so just for the effort he deserves making that character, don't you think? thanks again
malisteen 08-18-07, 10:55 AM	At high levels, it also can provide a lot of nifty options. A dread necro who becomes a necropolitan (a popular undead template form Libris Mortis), may find himself stalked by the inevitable that doesn't like people who cheat death (away from book, forgive me) when they become appropriate challange level enemies. A 20th level DN who becomes a lich is sure to run into advanced, unique versions of these monsters. One who follows this path might also be seen as breaking a contract by his refusal to participate in the 'repent or be damned' quest, the very reason he was granted a new life to begin with, and thus might run into the other inevitable as well. Imagine the possibilities for his 7th level familiar - which in this case should be an imp. A devil who serves him, but also provides a constant tempting voice urging him back to evil. A devil who also is the perfect spy, able to report back to his devilish masters once the character has finally succumb completely and become evil again. At that point the character is likely to run into powerful devils sent to slay him and in so doing return his soul to hell. At level 20, when the character has become a lich, these devils just happen to have access to a spy who can tell them where his phylactory is hidden. Rather then get hung up on it, treat it as a source of potential adventure hooks for mid to high level play.